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[Charcoal]

lol our justice system

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

I'm confused, is she being sent to prison today or is she on bail?

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

The guy had free will. It was his own choice. Personally I think that the guy's family is more to blame than the girl. How could they not know how mentally ill he was? Where were they in all this?

People dying from suicide isn't obvious for everyone including family members.

 

[blakep267]

The guy had free will. It was his own choice. Personally I think that the guy's family is more to blame than the girl. How could they not know how mentally ill he was? Where were they in all this?

That's not how it works. Millions of people have mental illness and keep it from their families. That doesn't mean you can still talk somebody into suicide and get away with it. Because their families should've been more involved...

 

[Linkura]

Anddd they already issued a stay on the sentence. Bullshit.

http://www.wcvb.com/article/woman-w...nd-to-commit-suicide-to-be-sentenced/11134367

 

[Trigonometrize.]

The guy had free will. It was his own choice. Personally I think that the guy's family is more to blame than the girl. How could they not know how mentally ill he was? Where were they in all this?

We're all slaves to our environment. In the same way you can't say a kid growing up with shitty parents in a shitty neighborhood in a shitty school with a shitty future and a kid with wealthy parents that love him that goes to a good school both have absolute free will and are just making a choice when the first one drops out of high school and the second goes on to get his degree and a good job, you can't just say he had free will. There's a conversation to be had about how we hold the "influencers" responsible, but there's clearly something wrong with her that we need to correct.

 

[ito007]

The guy had free will. It was his own choice. Personally I think that the guy's family is more to blame than the girl. How could they not know how mentally ill he was? Where were they in all this?

The sad truth is that for a lot of people, they reach a state in which it doesn't feel like they have free will at all.

 

[schwabdizzle]

2.5 years seems too short. At least 5-10 for such a serious crime.

Man this girl who killed my friends sister in a drunk driving accident got 90 days in jail here in Missouri. 2.5 for that girl will be hell.

 

[ronaldthump]

Good. No Parole

 

[Vampfox]

Fucking joke of a sentence. Something as evil as she did deserves far longer, 10-15 years at least.

Personally I disagree.
This girl has no criminal record before this.
10-15 years should be for serious criminals.

 

[Petrae]

Anddd they already issued a stay on the sentence. Bullshit.

http://www.wcvb.com/article/woman-w...nd-to-commit-suicide-to-be-sentenced/11134367

At least the judge's order that she cannot be paid in any way for this (no book/movie deals, no paid interviews) is still in effect. Now we wait for the appeals process.

 

[MisterR]

Posts like these are pretty terrible simplifications. She didn't just tell him to kill himself in passing, this was a black and white case, not some awkward share of gray. Pretty telling the posters more worried about not being able to manipulate people into killing themselves like this woman than about justice for the person who died.

That's quite the leap that people are worried about not being able to manipulate people into killing themselves. Can we not have discussion without childish hyperbole? It's the first case I've ever heard of in which someone was convicted of manslaughter based on just words. What she did was heinous, but it's certainly not black or white as a verdict. It's basically unprecedented.

 

[faint.]

I'm confused, is she being sent to prison today or is she on bail?

She's not serving time during her appeals process which is currently ongoing.

 

[AuthenticM]

Serve 15 months.

AP: Girlfriend who sent texts urging suicide sentenced to 15 months in jail

It should have been at least two years.

Oh well, this sentence is certainly better than a too-harsh one. I think two years, with possibility of parole in one, would have been perfect to curb this particular behaviour. Anymore than that and you don't accomplish anything positive.

 

[themaskedndi]

Or female? If the genders were reversed, they would have thrown the book at him.

The only similar case I'm aware of the William Melchert-Dinkel case. He encouraged two people to commit suicide and was sentenced to 360 days.

During the appeals process for that case the Minnesota Supreme Court ruled that encouraging someone to commit suicide is not protected by the First Amendment. I'm not sure how these kinds of cases should be prosecuted, though.

 

[rjinaz]

She got off easy. Should have been 5 years at least. She might as well have pulled the trigger.

Rip and condolences to the family. Not sure justice was served here but, it was a unprecedented case.

 

[Bolivar687]

We're all slaves to our environment. In the same way you can't say a kid growing up with shitty parents in a shitty neighborhood in a shitty school with a shitty future and a kid with wealthy parents that love him that goes to a good school both have absolute free will and are just making a choice when the first one drops out of high school and the second goes on to get his degree and a good job, you can't just say he had free will.

There law is almost entirely premised on personal responsibility. Fortunately, we don't need to have this debate in this scenario, since the victim clearly needed help and did not have the mental faculties to act reasonably on his own. I'm encouraged by the outcome, although I sympathize with those who were looking for a longer sentence.

 

[Mesoian]

Anddd they already issued a stay on the sentence. Bullshit.

http://www.wcvb.com/article/woman-w...nd-to-commit-suicide-to-be-sentenced/11134367

Mark my words, this woman will never set a foot in jail.

 

[Servbot24]

While I have no sympathy for the girl, I do wonder about the precedent. Can anyone who writes "kill yourself" on the internet be subject to jail time? Not that anyone should ever write that, but it seems that millions of people could instantly be sent to prison if that were the case.

 

[Sesuadra]

While I have no sympathy for the girl, I do wonder about the precedent. Can anyone who writes "kill yourself" on the internet be subject to jail time? Not that anyone should ever write that, but it seems that millions of people could instantly be sent to prison if that were the case.

but she did more than write kys.

way more.

 

[Bolivar687]

While I have no sympathy for the girl, I do wonder about the precedent. Can anyone who writes "kill yourself" on the internet be subject to jail time? Not that anyone should ever write that, but it seems that millions of people could instantly be sent to prison if that were the case.

That's really the heart of the issue. While the answer to the question of culpability might be "definitely not" in your hypothetical and "probably yes" in this case, there's so much in the middle that we need to think about.

 

[Servbot24]

That's really the heart of the issue. While the answer to the question of culpability might be "definitely not" in your hypothetical and "probably yes" in this case, there's so much in the middle that we need to think about.

Right, I'm drawing an outline around the middle. A generic and unwitting "kill yourself" message could reach a suicidal person and result in their death. That's much different than knowing the person is suicidal and targeting them on purpose, but even so there is some degree of fault resting with both message senders, varying by their knowledge of the victim and the severity of the messages. It's difficult to determine the appropriate sentence and where the balance lies in regards to culpability of the message sender versus the ownership of the action of the victim.

 

[off duty ninja]

Here is a really interesting op-ed written by Amanda Knox about this case. I think I agree with her that, while what Carter did was wrong, it also isn't manslaughter.

It's hard to feel sympathy for Carter, who was wrong to instruct Roy over the phone to get back into the truck in which he was poisoning himself with carbon monoxide. And because suicide is illegal, we can interpret her part in the final moments of Roy's life as incitement to lawless action, or conspiracy to commit a crime.

But involuntary manslaughter?

Involuntary manslaughter is when a drunk driver crashes into another vehicle, when a gunman shoots at tin cans in his suburban backyard, when a carnival ride operator fails to ensure that all passengers are strapped in, and as a result an innocent person dies. Encouraging your boyfriend to follow through with his own death wish should not qualify. Carter may not be innocent in a moral or philosophical sense, but she was wrongfully convicted.

Here she talks about how much Carter tried to help him in the weeks and months leading up to the suicide. I think this is the crux of the issue.

The very fact that suicide is illegal reveals how self-harm confuses our sympathies. The suicide is his own victim, his own murderer. We naturally want to blame someone for the murder, but we're reluctant to further condemn the victim. This emotional paradox makes it hard for us to find closure. But with Roy's suicide, we have, in the person of Carter, another party to hold responsible. It's much easier psychologically to reproach a villain than it is to hold in one's mind the contradictory feelings we have about suicide.

When I was on trial for murder in Italy, the media tried to paint me as a ”femme fatale." So it was with a sickening sense of déjà vu that I watched the prosecution attempt the same trick with Carter, whom they said coldly and calculatingly insinuated herself into Roy's vulnerable consciousness. They held her accountable for failing as Roy's caregiving companion. Instead of protecting Roy from himself, Carter coerced him to commit suicide against his better instincts.

Except that's not what she did. For months leading up to Roy's suicide, Carter advised Roy against self-harm and to seek counseling. Every time she urged Roy toward professional help, she implicitly admitted, ”I am not enough." Carter contradicted Roy's suicidal thoughts (”What is harming yourself gonna do!? Nothing! It will make it worse!"). But in the end, she bought into it, too. Carter was ill-equipped to manage her own social anxiety, self-harm ideation and body dysmorphia, much less Roy's depression and tortured obsession with ending his own life.

These were two confused teenagers trying to find their own ways to cope with their issues. Clearly that was a mistake for both of them but mental health support in this country is an absolute joke. This girl needs some serious help that won't come from imprisonment.

 

[WinFonda]

While I have no sympathy for the girl, I do wonder about the precedent. Can anyone who writes "kill yourself" on the internet be subject to jail time? Not that anyone should ever write that, but it seems that millions of people could instantly be sent to prison if that were the case.

"kill yourself" as a single one-off comment is not encouraging someone to suicide. It's just a mean-spirited, disparaging comment.

the context in this instance is way different, where one person who is emotionally and mentally vulnerable is being manipulated/coerced by another person whom they trust in a very elaborate, deliberate way

it's all in the specifics really

But in the end, she bought into it, too

And in the end, that's the only thing that matters? If I spent a month telling my significant other, "Hey babe, I think you should get some help for your depression" and then I flip the script and the next month I'm all like "You know what, fuck it, do it and get it over with I'm tired of your shit" the bad outweighs the good by a lot in this instance, especially given what was acted on and what wasn't. It's textbook emotional abuse.

 

[Dyle]

Here is a really interesting op-ed written by Amanda Knox about this case. I think I agree with her that, while what Carter did was wrong, it also isn't manslaughter.

Thanks for posting this, it's a really good take on this situation. The more I read the more I realize that as much as she was the perpetrator of the crime and played a major, if not dominant, role in Roy's death, I cannot help but see her as a victim as well. Suicidal thoughts lead people to do irrational things, I know from my personal near-misses with it and lost friends, and I can't in good faith believe that she should be punished for acting under extreme emotional duress that clouds one's perspective and makes everything look hopeless. Those calling for long jail sentences, or imo jail at all, over serious therapy and mental health regimens for this poor girl are wrong and are viewing the justice system as a means of exerting punishment rather than rehabilitation. She will never be able to get this guilt away from her and will always live in the shadow of it, especially given the attention this case has received. If she is to rejoin society as a productive citizen then whatever comes out of this case needs to focus on healing her and allowing her to come to terms with and, ultimately move on from, what will hopefully be the biggest mistake of her life.

Does she need to be held accountable? Of course, but jail doesn't seem to be an effective method of doing so imo. This case underlines how much we need to de-stigmatize mental health, both to prevent these tragedies from occurring and to so that we can heal from them and move forward as individuals and as a community.

 

[norm9]

Here is a really interesting op-ed written by Amanda Knox about this case.

Amanda Knox doesn't know what shes talking about.

 

[ghostofsparta]

Just saw a report on this on ABC. 15 month sentance but she's free while she appeals. I find it hard to believe she'll ever see jail time

 

[excelsiorlef]

Thanks for posting this, it's a really good take on this situation. The more I read the more I realize that as much as she was the perpetrator of the crime and played a major, if not dominant, role in Roy's death, I cannot help but see her as a victim as well. Suicidal thoughts lead people to do irrational things, I know from my personal near-misses with it and lost friends, and I can't in good faith believe that she should be punished for acting under extreme emotional duress that clouds one's perspective and makes everything look hopeless. Those calling for long jail sentences, or imo jail at all, over serious therapy and mental health regimens for this poor girl are wrong and are viewing the justice system as a means of exerting punishment rather than rehabilitation. She will never be able to get this guilt away from her and will always live in the shadow of it, especially given the attention this case has received. If she is to rejoin society as a productive citizen then whatever comes out of this case needs to focus on healing her and allowing her to come to terms with and, ultimately move on from, what will hopefully be the biggest mistake of her life.

Does she need to be held accountable? Of course, but jail doesn't seem to be an effective method of doing so imo. This case underlines how much we need to de-stigmatize mental health, both to prevent these tragedies from occurring and to so that we can heal from them and move forward as individuals and as a community.

She had the option to drop him from her life to distance herself from him, but she didn't do that she instead made sure he'd do it.

A young man is dead and she's the one who made sure he'd put himself in the grave. She's not a poor girl. Read those texts, read what she said, she's not a victim here. She could have walked away at any time if she couldn't handle him.

And it would have been fairly easy, they did not live close together and from what I can tell their relationship was basically mostly online and by phone.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/08/us/text-message-suicide-michelle-carter-conrad-roy/index.html

This is not someone who is owed sympathy and victimhood.

He was clearly expressing doubt. She could have called people, called his parents, done literally anything but what she did. Read those texts... they're horrific.

 

[13ruce]

She had the option to drop him from her life to distance herself from him, but she didn't do that she instead made sure he'd do it.

A young man is dead and she's the one who made sure he'd put himself in the grave. She's not a poor girl. Read those texts, read what she said, she's not a victim here. She could have walked away at any time if she couldn't handle him.

And it would have been fairly easy, they did not live close together and from what I can tell their relationship was basically mostly online and by phone.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/08/us/text-message-suicide-michelle-carter-conrad-roy/index.html

This is not someone who is owed sympathy and victimhood.

He was clearly expressing doubt. She could have called people, called his parents, done literally anything but what she did. Read those texts... they're horrific.

Hopefully she is atleast put in a mental facility for a couple of years. Cuz after reading those texts she needs atleast that.

Edit: well atleast some required mental help.

 

[Hatemachine]

I watched the documentary about this on HBO last night and it completely changed my perspective on the case. It's completely fucked that the DA brought a case against this girl and got a conviction against her. There was never even any credible evidence that Carter told Roy to get back into the car. The girl was clearly fucked in the head herself and badly needed mental health treatment, not to be sent to fucking jail. Roy's family is absolutely despicable. It's abundantly clear that his parent's divorce and the abuse he suffered by his father is what drove the kid into severe depression. But these motherfuckers were happy to let a 17 year old girl be the scapegoat so they could pretend they were the victims here and not have to take responsibility for their absolutely dog shit parenting.

 

[Frito_Pendejo]

I watched the documentary about this on HBO last night and it completely changed my perspective on the case. It's completely fucked that the DA brought a case against this girl and got a conviction against her. There was never even any credible evidence that Carter told Roy to get back into the car. The girl was clearly fucked in the head herself and badly needed mental health treatment, not to be sent to fucking jail. Roy's family is absolutely despicable. It's abundantly clear that his parent's divorce and the abuse he suffered by his father is what drove the kid into severe depression. But these motherfuckers were happy to let a 17 year old girl be the scapegoat so they could pretend they were the victims here and not have to take responsibility for their absolutely dog shit parenting.

No credible evidence? They have her text messages dude. She told him basically not to pus out and get back in the car. I have no idea what documentary you watched but they got a conviction because they had a metric-shit ton of evidence.

 

[Hatemachine]

No credible evidence? They have her text messages dude. She told him basically not to pus out and get back in the car. I have no idea what documentary you watched but they got a conviction because they had a metric-shit ton of evidence.

Fake news. There was no text message from Carter to Roy telling him to get back in the car and kill himself. The evidence they had was a text message Carter sent to one of her "friends" months later telling her she told Roy to get back into the car and die and now she feels awful about it. But Carter's messages to friends were full of all sorts of bizarre, manipulative bullshit that was begging for attention (saying Roy raped her, for example) so we have no idea if she actually told him to get back into the car and die or if that was another story she pulled out of her ass to get attention and sympathy from her friends.

Watch the documentary on HBO it's pretty eye opening.

 

[rorepmE]

What a sexy fivehead

 

[EverydayBeast]

RIP.

 

[Evil Calvin]

No credible evidence? They have her text messages dude. She told him basically not to pus out and get back in the car. I have no idea what documentary you watched but they got a conviction because they had a metric-shit ton of evidence.

Exactly. I read those text messages as well. She totally encouraged him to end his life.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Fake news. There was no text message from Carter to Roy telling him to get back in the car and kill himself. The evidence they had was a text message Carter sent to one of her "friends" months later telling her she told Roy to get back into the car and die and now she feels awful about it. But Carter's messages to friends were full of all sorts of bizarre, manipulative bullshit that was begging for attention (saying Roy raped her, for example) so we have no idea if she actually told him to get back into the car and die or if that was another story she pulled out of her ass to get attention and sympathy from her friends.

Watch the documentary on HBO it's pretty eye opening.

Yes there were text messages. I read those texts a couple years ago. She totally told him to just get it over with and quit debating it. I don't want to waste the time and energy to dig those texts up but they were there and public. Not fake news. Not even news. It was her actual texts. She deserves jail time easily.

 

[Hatemachine]

Yes there were text messages. I read those texts a couple years ago. She totally told him to just get it over with and quit debating it. I don't want to waste the time and energy to dig those texts up but they were there and public. Not fake news. Not even news. It was her actual texts. She deserves jail time easily.

Yes there's text messages of her encouraging him to kill himself, but the "get back in the car" texts don't exist, contrary to what is widely believed. Also worth pointing out that her general attitude in the texts to him in the last days is "just fucking kill yourself already, or get some help" which suggests that after hearing this kid piss and moan for years she probably thought it would be best for him to be put out of his misery. She had attempted suicide herself at some point. Maybe not great advice from her, but again she's a 17 year old girl who was fucked in the head. Oh and he had also threatened her if she were to tell anybody that he's suicidal. Charging her with involuntary manslaughter for this was insane.

 

[Zeroing]

This is connected with the American mentality of “free speech” without consequences???

I wonder if people started believing that words have no lasting consequences/effects on someone... or maybe they are using it on purpose...

 

[JSoup]

At least the judge's order that she cannot be paid in any way for this (no book/movie deals, no paid interviews) is still in effect. Now we wait for the appeals process.

Responding to an old comment here, but this means nothing. The order is only against her, someone else can write it and pass the profits off. This is how several repeat offenders do it. Could even do the OJ thing, write out her experience in the most specific, insulting way possible and then release it for free with an option for charity donation.

 

[Hatemachine]

Responding to an old comment here, but this means nothing. The order is only against her, someone else can write it and pass the profits off. This is how several repeat offenders do it. Could even do the OJ thing, write out her experience in the most specific, insulting way possible and then release it for free with an option for charity donation.

Considering her ability to earn a livelihood the normal way has been destroyed by this highly public sham of a trial, I would hope she can recoup something based on her story here.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

I watched the documentary about this on HBO last night and it completely changed my perspective on the case. It's completely fucked that the DA brought a case against this girl and got a conviction against her. There was never even any credible evidence that Carter told Roy to get back into the car. The girl was clearly fucked in the head herself and badly needed mental health treatment, not to be sent to fucking jail. Roy's family is absolutely despicable. It's abundantly clear that his parent's divorce and the abuse he suffered by his father is what drove the kid into severe depression. But these motherfuckers were happy to let a 17 year old girl be the scapegoat so they could pretend they were the victims here and not have to take responsibility for their absolutely dog shit parenting.

Oo what’s the name of the documentary I’m gonna watch

 

[Hatemachine]

Oo what’s the name of the documentary I’m gonna watch

 

[Reptars Revenge]

Thanks