GOP set to adopt official abortion platform without exceptions for rape and incest

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42% of all pregnancies worldwide result in complications.
15% of all pregnancies worldwide result in life threatening complications.

A pregnancy is not just a developing baby doing its own thing inside the womb as if it were space for rent. The mother's own body is heavily involved in the process. Republicans want to use government to override medical decisions between a woman and her doctor over her own health, well-being, and possibly survival.

"You didn't carry that."
 
Hitokage said:
42% of all pregnancies worldwide result in complications.
15% of all pregnancies worldwide result in life threatening complications.

Republicans want to use government to override medical decisions between a woman and her doctor over her own health, well-being, and possibly survival.

"You didn't carry that."
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I think its beyond clear that the GOP doesn't care about womens health here.
 
Air said:
I recall under Bush that there were laws enabling stem cell research, especially for adults. It was always embryonic stem cells that was the problem. I guess you can make the case that bush wasn't part of the religious right as it is understood today.
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List of US states with partial or full bans on embryonic stem cell research:

Arkansas, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Virginia.
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Bans on stem cell research go hand in hand with pro-life. Which highlights the ironic part of the pro-life moniker. They want to ban a scientific process that has enormous potential to save lives.
 
Raonak said:
A fetus needs a woman's womb to live. she should be allowed to abort aslong as it needs her to surive.

we really don't need more low income single mothers in this overpopulated world.
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So... 21-23 weeks?

Devolution said:
If it's still inside the mother it's a fetus. Your longer gestation period doesn't disqualify the definition.
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If it can be delivered as an able (viable) life, it will turn into "a baby" by your definition.
Seeing there is 'plenty' of cases of pre-terms with 7 months of gestation, that would at least determine a secure age of possible life.
But seeing how brain functions 'start' a bit earlier than that, I'd say it is a "human" at that time space (4 to 5 months).

I assume the mode of abortion time is lower than that anyway.


---

My position would be that if there is sustained brain activity, you are 'terminating it'.

Now about the whole abortion issue, can we choose and when we can, who can choose, should everyone be able to and so on, I won't entertain it.

I'll just say that as soon as the pregnancy is identified, the choice should be made, in my opinion. Rape victims should be offered assistance on identifying pregnancy as early as possible and support. Minors should procure their guardians and be offered assistance too and education. And for general cases of unwanted pregnancy, the adult woman should have the choice, but I'd say that it should only be fully covered by health care in the first occurance.
 
Hitokage said:
42% of all pregnancies worldwide result in complications.
15% of all pregnancies worldwide result in life threatening complications.

Republicans want to use government to override medical decisions between a woman and her doctor over her own health, well-being, and possibly survival.

"You didn't carry that."
Click to expand...

Yep, this is practically the biggest issue when it comes the GOP's stance on this.
 
Duffyside said:
This is why I make an effort to partake in these discussions. The pro-choice movement always shows its true, ghastly colors.
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How fucking dare you.

You come in here and glibly, grimly spout anti-science nonsense about how a cluster of cells is a human being and when people call it out you call them ghastly.

You are a truly sick fuck. I pity any women that have to come in contact with your sorry ass.
 
Duffyside said:
This is why I make an effort to partake in these discussions. The pro-choice movement always shows its true, ghastly colors.
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It's a human. But it gradually acquires traits of a person, such as a beating heart, the ability to feel, at different week intervals.

Some people will say you cannot kill a "human." If that's the case, then I guess you can't abort anything. Some people make the call at personhood. This will depend on the arbitrary qualifications you define as being a "person" and "not a person". Others will say that you can simply abort until the fetus is no longer parasitic. Others still will say that it's the woman's body, at which point the logical conclusion is that abortion should be allowed up until the fetus can survive outside the body, at which point it should be removed. All of this will depend on a variety of sociological factors such as your upbringing and personal subjective morals.

I don't think being intellectually honest is being ghastly. The problem is when people like you go about name-calling. That's what shuts down discussion.
 
As a man, I can't comprehend what it's like to have a baby inside me. I literally cannot comprehend it. I can attempt to rationally understand it or empathize with it but I have no point of reference.

Women have to bear children (biologically, there is no other choice) and if they have to do that, they should also be given the choice to abort a fetus. When and how far along into the pregnancy they should legally be allowed to abort is a discussion I'm willing to entertain but outright banning it? Get the fuck out.

If you don't want to have an abortion, that's fine, you have the choice not to get one. But don't tell me that everyone else has to go along with your decision too.

Suairyu said:
It can't even be recognisably classified as such until it starts to develop a brain and other human organs, and probably even beyond that.

Unless, of course, you want to classify every sperm and egg as human too.
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From what I've read from Duffyside so far, he wouldn't mind. It's a potential human!

I shudder to think what happens when I masturbate. Actually, considering all the times I've rubbed one out . . .

The average sperm count today is between 20 and 40 million per milliliter in the Western world
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Oh shit, I'm a mass murderer. Like, worse than Stalin and Hitler combined T_T
 
MIMIC said:
So what is a "person"?
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Not a bunch of dividing cells in a womb, that's for sure.

noun
1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
3. Sociology . an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.
4. Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being.
5. the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
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LuchaShaq said:
Unless humanity was struggling to maintain a decent population children are pretty much that most of their lives let alone when they are not near birth.
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I don't share that view. The retired elderly, homeless, unemployed, and children may be a parasite on society, but I see no one endorsing their certain death. It's because often most societies have systems and programs in place to protect those classes of human life, or let's be clear, people. We value their life, not for what they produce in society or the social issues that they create. We value them because we are morally and ethically responsible as a society to protect and do our best to nurture human life that is not economically or socially viable when left alone.
 
Keikaku said:
As a man, I can't comprehend what it's like to have a baby inside me. I literally cannot comprehend it. I can attempt to rationally understand it or empathize with it but I have no point of reference.

Women have to bear children (biologically, there is no other choice) and and if they have to do that, they should also be given the choice to abort a fetus. When and how far along into the pregnancy they should legally be allowed to abort is a discussion I'm willing to entertain but outright banning it? Get the fuck out.

If you don't want to have an abortion, that's fine, you have the choice not to get one. But don't tell me that everyone else has to go along with your decision too.


From what I've read from Duffyside so far, he wouldn't mind. It's a potential human!

I shudder to think what happens when I masturbate. Actually, considering all the times I've rubbed one out . . .



Oh shit, I'm a mass murderer. Like, worse than Stalin and Hitler combined T_T
Click to expand...

animal.
 
I'm pro-choice.

But I always wondered something.

Is the majority "pro-choice" stance allowing abortions up until 9 months?

I realize it is still a fetus until it exits the body of the mother. However it is possible for the fetus to survive outside the human body (as a baby post-exit) at around 28 weeks.

So how do people feel about abortions...let's say 30+ weeks into pregnancy? That's where I become confused. What the hell is an abortion even like at that stage? I mean I am sure the fetus is significant size by now...

So what I am saying is that I feel a bit uncomfortable with the fact that a fetus can survive outside the body way before the usual due date. So should it be aborted 30+ weeks into pregnancy? (It obviously should if it is a danger to the mother's life of course).


MIMIC said:
Because you say so?
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Because that cluster of cells has no brain, heart, nerves, lungs, organs, differentiated/determined cells YET.
 
If one believes abortion to be an injustice against human life in all circumstances, that it should be outlawed, and that the preservation of all human life to be of the greatest worth, then one must also believe that the government has the responsibility to provide complete, unrestricted care (medical, educational, psychological, etc) for expectant mothers in unfortunate situations and the children which come from these pregnancies.

This is of course stating the conflict in its most simplest terms, deliberately ignoring factors such as the psychological effects of carrying your rapist's baby, long-term health risks stemming from dangerous pregnancies, and many others (that could cross to either side of the divide). I only mean to say that I find it appalling that anyone would advocate the reduction (and in many cases, outright removal) of social programs with one hand and advocate a zero-exceptions banning of abortions with the other. To do so betrays a self-centred mindset; one in which those involved wish to maintain their own prosperity while also maintaining a feeling of moral superiority over those less fortunate.
 
EulaCapra said:
Someone please get some gypsies and witches to get these Republicans pregnant.
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I know just the woman to go to.

MZB76.jpg
 
Well, if a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them? If a fetus is a human being, how come when there's a miscarriage they don't have a funeral? If a fetus is a human being, how come people say 'we have two children and one on the way' instead of saying 'we have three children?'
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George Carlin. Such a genius way of putting it.
 
Devolution said:
One of my teachers in college, Women's Studies, forgot what country she came from, couldn't abort a fetus like that and had to carry it to term and birth it.
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That one life thats thankful.
Oh wait my bad, that kid probably ended up committing suicide or something according to people in this thread.
 
Saadster said:
Because that cluster of cells has no brain, heart, nerves, lungs, organs, differentiated/determined cells YET.
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That doesn't preclude it from being a person. I have yet to read one definition that would exclude that cluster of cells--that would eventually develop into a full-grown man/woman--from being considered a person.
 
SPE said:
List of US states with partial or full bans on embryonic stem cell research:



Bans on stem cell research go hand in hand with pro-life. Which highlights the ironic part of the pro-life moniker. They want to ban a scientific process that has enormous potential to save lives.
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1. You should probably clarify what you mean by stem cell research as there is, afaik, embroyonic and adult stem cell research going on.
2. You should probably link to your information source. I found this on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_c...on_relevant_stem_cell.2Fcloning_controversies
3. According to the article the ban is on embryonic stem cell research, so your post is flawed in that regard.
4. Banning abortion and embryonic stem cell research goes hand in hand because it suits their definition of where life starts.
5. This is not a stem cell research thread and this will be my last post relating to this particular topic.
 
Loofy said:
Guys remember this?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=452953

I dont know why theres so much outrage at the police officer kicking a parasite.

Same with those drunk doctors that accidently decapitated the not-yet baby.
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"Parasitic" and "symbiotic" is to me (I might be wrong scientifically, and if so, please correct me) subjective. We have symbiotic bacteria in our digestive tract, they are called symbiotic because they are provide a benefit to us. A fetus may provide a benefit, or it may create harm, depending on your view of said fetus, and whether you wish to have it inside you or not.
 
MIMIC said:
Because you say so?
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The only argument for a foetus being a person*, and thus, termination of said foetus is murder, are religious in nature. Not scientific. Which means the are not open to rational discussion.

And no two religions agrees of when a foetus become a person. Conception, 40 days, 90 days, birth? Even Christianity has flip-flopped over the centuries over when ensoulment occurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment
 
Saadster said:
I'm pro-choice.

But I always wondered something.

Is the majority "pro-choice" stance allowing abortions up until 9 months?
Click to expand...
I'm for allowing late-term abortions in as much as it's used in situations when something has already gone seriously wrong, and the pregnancy must be terminated. It is my understanding that is already the case much of the time.

Still, if a woman is already near the end of a pregnancy and can safely bring it to term, then I'm inclined to encourage her to do so. I'd also suggest that proper support channels be in place to take care of the newborn if the parents do not want it.
 
Loofy said:
That one life thats thankful.
Oh wait my bad, that kid probably ended up committing suicide or something according to people in this thread.
Click to expand...
Maybe you should read the article. It may be hard from on top of your high horse so I'll try to make it clearer for you
Anencephaly is a cephalic disorder that results from a neural tube defect that occurs when the cephalic (head) end of the neural tube fails to close, usually between the 23rd and 26th day of pregnancy, resulting in the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp.[1] Strictly speaking, the translation of the Greek term to English is "no brain" (that is, totally lacking), but it is accepted that children with this disorder are born without a forebrain, the largest part of the brain consisting mainly of the cerebral hemispheres, including the neocortex, which is responsible for higher-level cognition. The remaining brain tissue is often exposed, i.e. not covered by bone or skin.[2] With very few exceptions,[3] most babies with this genetic disorder do not survive birth.
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So, to summarize:
  • It can't think
  • It probably wasn't alive at birth
  • Whether it's life at all is questionable

Did you just look at the picture and think "Hmmm, it looks mostly like a baby so it is one?" I can't believe I have to explain this to another, breathing human being.
 
Log4Girlz said:
Each one of your cells is half a person. If you masturbate, you should be arrested.
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You guys must be going nuts that not one of us pro-lifers have said anything of this sort. It actually says way more about you than it does me, that you would even think someone would make such an argument. Just... wow.

I also don't argue that Hydrogen is water and that Oxygen is water. But when their powers combine... GUESS WHAT HAPPENS!?!?
 
Duffyside said:
You guys must be going nuts that not one of us pro-lifers have said anything of this sort. It actually says way more about you than it does me, that you would even think someone would make such an argument. Just... wow.

I also don't argue that Hydrogen is water and that Oxygen is water. But when their powers combine... GUESS WHAT HAPPENS!?!?
Click to expand...

H2O is made of atoms.
 
Raonak said:
A fetus needs a woman's womb to live. she should be allowed to abort aslong as it needs her to surive.
Click to expand...
Babies have survived a gestation as few as 21 weeks. That is before entering the third trimester.

What happens as perinatal medicine continues to advance?
 
Duffyside said:
You guys must be going nuts that not one of us pro-lifers have said anything of this sort. It actually says way more about you than it does me, that you would even think someone would make such an argument. Just... wow.

I also don't argue that Hydrogen is water and that Oxygen is water. But when their powers combine... GUESS WHAT HAPPENS!?!?
Click to expand...
Actually, it drives me nuts that you cherry pick the posts that are taking a satirical look at your opinion instead of responding to the ones that blow away your arguments.

Oh, wait, it doesn't drive me nuts at all. It's pretty much what I've come to expect.
 
Duffyside said:
You guys must be going nuts that not one of us pro-lifers have said anything of this sort. It actually says way more about you than it does me, that you would even think someone would make such an argument. Just... wow.

I also don't argue that Hydrogen is water and that Oxygen is water. But when their powers combine... GUESS WHAT HAPPENS!?!?
Click to expand...

You dodge all of the logical posts, and latch on to the one guy who is clearly being sarcastic.

No, your stance on suppressing womens righs says enough :)

^5's Keikaku.

Such obvious drivel.
 
SPE said:
The only argument for a foetus being a person*, and thus, termination of said foetus is murder, are religious in nature. Not scientific. Which means the are not open to rational discussion.
Click to expand...

Seems to me like you're making things up on the fly....or just unaware of the scientific community which has said that conception (that cluster of dividing cells) is considered to be the starting phase of a human life/person/human being/whatever

Unless, of course, these scientists moonlight as ministers.
 
Duffyside said:
You guys must be going nuts that not one of us pro-lifers have said anything of this sort. It actually says way more about you than it does me, that you would even think someone would make such an argument. Just... wow.

I also don't argue that Hydrogen is water and that Oxygen is water. But when their powers combine... GUESS WHAT HAPPENS!?!?
Click to expand...

Let's change the conversation.

Why do you hate women?
 
Anything that's remotely human deserves to be born, even if it's basically brain dead or a tumor. So sayeth Duffy. The rest of us are just ghastly pro choicers who think women deserve bodily autonomy and a private decision with their doctor.
 
Hitokage said:
I'm for allowing late-term abortions in as much as it's used in situations when something has already gone seriously wrong, and the pregnancy must be terminated. It is my understanding that is already the case much of the time.

Still, if a woman is already near the end of a pregnancy and can safely bring it to term, then I'm inclined to encourage her to do so. I'd also suggest that proper support channels be in place to take care of the newborn if the parents do not want it.
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That is a reasonable stance; pretty close to mine.

devilhawk said:
Babies have survived a gestation as few as 21 weeks. That is before entering the third trimester.

What happens as perinatal medicine continues to advance?
Click to expand...

See I always wondered that. That is the real murky line for me.
 
Loofy said:
That one life thats thankful.
Oh wait my bad, that kid probably ended up committing suicide or something according to people in this thread.
Click to expand...

It's kind of hard to be thankful if you're born without most of your brain, especially the parts required for any sort of input processing
 
Why are people using exceptional premies to establish viability? Do you know how much care probably went into making sure they survived? How many others at the same week died?
 
Keikaku said:
you cherry pick the posts that are taking a satirical look at your opinion instead of responding to the ones that blow away your arguments.

Oh, wait, it doesn't drive me nuts at all. It's pretty much what I've come to expect.
Click to expand...

Did you also come to expect that I may have been in this thread before you? Been arguing all night, dude, for at least 90 minutes longer than I wanted to. I'm not going to keep rehashing the same ol' stuff, nor can I keep up with everyone. Grow up.

commedieu said:
You dodge all of the logical posts, and latch on to the one guy who is clearly being sarcastic.
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Hey, you too.

Mercury Fred said:
Why do you hate women?
Click to expand...

I don't! Again, not all unborn children are boys. Crazy, I know!
 
MIMIC said:
Seems to me like you're making things up on the fly....or just unaware of the scientific community which has said that conception (that cluster of dividing cells) is considered to be the starting phase of a human life/person/human being/whatever

Unless, of course, these scientists moonlight as ministers.
Click to expand...

It's a zygote when the two gametes combine. Then it turns into a blastula, gastrula etc...


It isn't even classified as a fetus until 11 weeks in.
 
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