GOP set to adopt official abortion platform without exceptions for rape and incest

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I've called out at least two people on their hypocrisy on this front and they just ignore the post, lol

Atleast you gave it try. So thumps up to you.

I was waiting for this sweeping generalization to show up. I really, really was. And I'm not surprised, either.

Not that it has a single thing to do with the pro-life debate.....but I'm pro-life, against the death penalty and not a conservative. Is your mind blown? Or is this simply too implausible?

Do I get a free "change the subject" pass somewhere in this thread?


Its pretty obvious that you have been waiting for this, based on all the points you made up. My point was: many people who are against abortion are having no problem with death penalty. i didnt include those who are not in favor of the death penalty. this surprisingly didnt excluded you. so all your "is your mind blown?" points are pretty pointless. But to get this back on track: what is your problem with abortion?
 
WTF am I reading?
Are people not even aware how society viewed children before the XXth century or something?
In medieval times disabled children have been consired as something from satan, a "massa carnis", a soulless piece of meat only worth dying which is responsible itself for its own misery. They were drown, not feeded, beaten up till they died.

Leads to the question: From where did disabled children get their souls suddenly from?
 
In medieval times disabled children have been consired as something from satan, a "massa carnis", a soulless piece of meat only worth dying which is responsible itself for its misery. They were drown, not feeded, beaten up till they died.
Back in the good ol' days before all that awful secularism came in and sinned up the place.
 
one thing that always seems to be ignored in these discussions is the fact that pregnancy isn't some harmless little process, where the woman just rents out her uterus space for a few months, and everything's totally cool otherwise. "Oh, 9 months just passed, let me go pop this out real quick, brb. I almost forgot I had this thing inside me!"

Why should someone be forced to go through that (what can often be a messy, painful, and dangerous process), all because a tiny ass spermatozoa managed to slip through and fertilize one of her eggs? Of course, the response is probably "it's not the fault of the sperm/egg combination, so why should that be punished?" But this goes back to the same question: why do the "rights" of a blastocyst override the rights of the living, breathing, woman standing right there that the blastocyst 100% physically depends on?
 
I'm starting to get the impression that abortion is so popular because having a baby is such an easy mistake to make (considering today's culture), and thus the baby's life is devalued and downplayed in order to psychologically compensate for getting rid of it.

"Sex is fun and I like it. Whoops, I fucked up and had a baby. How does something so easy and enjoyable turn out to ruin my life? Well....it's not REALLY a person....so get rid of that shit!"

"It's not a big deal!" when it IS a big deal is probably the most popular way to try and justify a mistake. Responsibility sucks, doesn't it?

I don't know if this makes me a monster but i honestly don't care what the reason is for the abortion. I just don't consider a fetus young enough to be aborted a human and i have no problem with it being aborted. I just think it's silly to force someone who doesn't want to have kids to go through the 9 months of pregnancy and then actually raise the kid in god knows what situation when the 'baby' isn't really a human yet at all.

Then there is the whole issue that even if you ban abortions they will still happen except it will be people doing dumb shit like using coat hangars.

That's not to say i want there to be lots of abortions, i think we should focus on teaching people about safe sex (and start by teaching kids and giving them protection before they are sexually active).
 
one thing that always seems to be ignored in these discussions is the fact that pregnancy isn't some harmless little process, where the woman just rents out her uterus space for a few months, and everything's totally cool otherwise. "Oh, 9 months just passed, let me go pop this out real quick, brb. I almost forgot I had this thing inside me!"

Why should someone be forced to go through that (what can often be a messy, painful, and dangerous process), all because a tiny ass spermatozoa managed to slip through and fertilize one of her eggs? Of course, the response is probably "it's not the fault of the sperm/egg combination, so why should that be punished?" But this goes back to the same question: why do the "rights" of a blastocyst override the rights of the living, breathing, woman standing right there that the blastocyst 100% physically depends on?

Unfortunately a lot of them think it is. So they not only try to get rid of abortion, they also cut prenatal care and child care programs. So they not only force the woman to carry the baby to term, they don't want to spend the money to give it the best chance and don't want to spend the money to take care of the baby after it's born.

The governor of Nebraska cut prenatal care programs in the state. It cost the state 900,000$ or so to take care of thousands of kids. A couple of years later, we spent $800,000 just keeping a kid alive that would have been previously cared for under the program and their condition was directly linked to a lack of prenatal care.

Governor's reason behind getting rid of it? "People will come from other states to use it". Yep. Complaining about people wanting healthcare. Meanwhile, the reason his state has cheap food is because those same people are working the fields for less than minimum wage off the books.
 
Couple of questions I would like to see answered:

How would one handle a ban on abortion?
Would it be by making the act of abortion illegal, or would it be by giving the fetus a right to life that supersedes the pregnant woman's right to control her body?

If you had a pregnant woman in custody who intended to get an abortion, would you keep her in jail until she has given birth?
Would you strap her down until she gives birth if she doesn't comply?

If someone is irresponsible when it comes to sex, why would it be a good idea to make them deal with the massive responsibility that a child is?
Do you think that their previous irresponsibleness will result in them being responsible when it comes to caring for the kid?
 
Couple of questions I would like to see answered:

How would one handle a ban on abortion?
Would it be by making the act of abortion illegal, or would it be by giving the fetus a right to life that supersedes the pregnant woman's right to control her body?'

If you had a pregnant woman in custody who intended to get an abortion, would you keep her in jail until she has given birth?
Would you strap her down until she gives birth if she doesn't comply?

If someone is irresponsible when it comes to sex, why would it be a good idea to make them deal with the massive responsibility that a child is?
Do you think that their previous irresponsibleness will result in them being responsible when it comes to caring for the kid?

On top of that isn't miscarriage a type of manslaughter then?
 
So let me get this straight :
morning after pill : AOK
abortion after rape : Hell NO

did I get that right?

And seriously what kind of sick people think it's a good idea to force a woman who's been raped to just carry the child of the rapist?
Why the hell would you force someone to live through that?

Sometimes it begs the question if a good war wouldn't actually be a good way to manage the population of crazies....

Regardless of the abortion question - wouldn't it make sense for a rape victim who isn't on contraception to take the morning after pill immediately anyway?


Separately I'm pro choice. Never mind for rape, for everything. If you aren't in a happy relationship, or simply aren't ready mentally for children, then bringing one into the world can be harmful to both of you.
People can do almost anything they want in the US - choice over something that affects them physically and emotionally and is a long term responsibility should definitely be one of them.
 
I guess maybe at a stretch if the mother is doing something irresponsible that causes the death. I think stretching into areas like this only serves to muddy the discussion though.

Well if your body fails to sustain the baby it could be argued I mean if you can be charged for murder for an abortion you can be charged for that too.
Considering the trauma one goes through in either case I don't think it's even something we should consider.
I'm ok to drop that.

Regardless of the abortion question - wouldn't it make sense for a rape victim who isn't on contraception to take the morning after pill immediately anyway?


Separately I'm pro choice. Never mind for rape, for everything. If you aren't in a happy relationship, or simply aren't ready mentally for children, then bringing one into the world can be harmful to both of you.
People can do almost anything they want in the US - choice over something that affects them physically and emotionally and is a long term responsibility should definitely be one of them.
I took it that it wasn't an option (or some may prefer to avoid it as it can have some side effects)
 
Regardless of the abortion question - wouldn't it make sense for a rape victim who isn't on contraception to take the morning after pill immediately anyway?

It would yes. Having said that i'd imagine that often times people who have just been raped are very distressed and might not be thinking about that.
 
I literally laughed out loud at this bullshit. It's sick, but it's funny that you would actually say that.
And I shook my head at what you wrote. You understand that, even if you provide the medical bills for the woman till the child is 18 years old, she still needs to provide shelter, food, transportation, clothing, etc. as well? Let's say she gives it up, unless she has a adult that wants the baby right when it's born, it's going to get put into the system. Foster care. In America. So, there goes your loving home theory out the fucking window.

Even if she finds a place for the adoption, it's nine months of brutal physiological, fiscal, and psychological changes due to the development of the various stages of pregnancy. Hormones, blood pressure, rest heart rate, food consumption concerns, the expansion of the womb causing a larger abdominal area, buying clothing, buying food, society's treatment of a single pregnant woman, explaining the circumstance of the pregnancy, the way the body looks after pregnancy etc. We're talking life changing. And you're forcing that experience of the mother because you feel the development of a fetus is more important than the life/quality of life of the mother. Which you think is funny.


You know this is the same, exact argument made (by the pro-choice side) for women who simply don't want it? "inconvenient for my life, can't afford it right now, etc". I don't see how this is any different. But like I said before, I'd be perfectly OK with victims of rape possibly receiving free treatment during pregnancy because 1) they had no say in the matter and 2) they only represent a tiny fraction of women who get abortions so it's not like it would hemorrhage hospitals financially.
How generous of you! "Society wouldn't be too burdened with her medical bills, so I guess we could throw some money her way!" What about the 16 year old kid who has a hook up in high school in May? What about the woman that meets somebody at a bar/club? On vacation somewhere? In college when they're both unemployed? "Fuck em, should have thought about that before having sex." Great job, once again you're putting the life of the fetus over the life of the mother.

I didn't say she had to keep the child. But it's not like you can't keep a child because they were the product of rape. ALL children deserve to be loved, regardless of the circumstances.
Yes, all children do. But that's not what always happens, now is it. You gonna adopt a kid from the orphanage anytime soon? What about kids in the inner city who don't receive love because daddy's not home and momma's working two jobs? You petitioning for the expansion of inner city youth programs? Expansion of free job training programs for parents so they can have a living wage in order to take care of a child to provide this loving household? Subsidizing clothing, housing, healthy food, health care, etc. so the kid can grow up to be a strong boy and go take on the world? Come now, how far does the government have to go, or is your attitude still "fuck it, you have a womb, it's your burden."


So if people made an exception for rape victims, a ban on all other abortions would be OK? Because if not then everything apparently DOES have to be black and white.

It's a awful paradox. Both scenarios are terrible to me.
Oh, please. You serious here?! It's not black and white for the god damned woman who's carrying a developing fetus in her belly. You a man? 'Cause guess what you will never have to deal abortion. Ever. Like, if you hook up with a girl and you don't know each other, and she has an abortion and never tells you, you'll never be the wiser. It will effect your live 0%. Yet you feel that her having an abortion would be "terrible" because it's a murder? Really? That black and white to ya, eh?

You feel this strong about anything that's murder? You don't like the death penalty? You okay with war? You okay with the US government subsidizing corn leading to an increase in Type II diabetes in children causing health problems and leading to an early death? What about our poor standard of care of the impoverished leading them to death? These could all be considered murder and they're all involved with society as a whole. Think we should poor some money and resources into all that, or are they different? Shades of gray for your personally? Hmm?

Well if that "bad" is considered taking a life, I'm not on board.
Well, good news! Turns out, unless you have a vagina, you never have to have an abortion! You never have to deal with people calling a you a murderer because you're 16 and you aren't ready for a child. Or 22 and just starting a new career, you live with a room mate, and can't take care of a kid yet. Your 27 and you and your husband just don't want to have a child. Insert reason here.

You can sleep soundly, knowing that you'll never be the one paying to have a doctor go inside of you an commit a murder. Ever. Thank god, though, we have people like you out there just waiting to demean and convict these woman of a crime that's of the same level as sneaking into a house and slitting a child's throat. 'Cause, ya know, they're the exact same thing, right?

Seriously, guy. You're being incredibly pretentious and disrespectful. The fact that you're on a "taking a life" kick means you think abortion is legal murder and that anybody engaged in it as a disgusting person. Which is just sad, 'cause you probably know somebody who's had one in their life and is ashamed of it because of what society says about them even though it has no effect on society.
 
I would also like to note for the record that many women who never want to have kids cannot get their tubes tied unless they're married first or older than 35 or 40. Solely because they might have kids later. Imaginary babies that will never exist are more valued than the woman herself. It is extremely difficult to get the procedure done if you don't meet one of those two conditions, and in the first one in many states, the husband can block the woman from getting the procedure. Meanwhile, he can go get his balls clipped with no consent or notification required to his wife.

It gets tiring when you see the two faced "but only if they were responsible!" bullshit when all the options where a woman can be "responsible" are hard to obtain or blocked by old men in a church.
 
I didn't say she had to keep the child. But it's not like you can't keep a child because they were the product of rape. ALL children deserve to be loved, regardless of the circumstances.

There is probably no better way to increase the number of children who don't get loved than to make abortion illegal. This is the point. How does it benefit society to fill it with a bunch of people whose parents would prefer they don't exist? Again, we're happy to make killing legal in other situ actions where we view it as protecting society.
 
1) No, I don't want ever want a woman to have to be constantly reminded that she raped. But I'm also against abortion, so....

If anything, I think victims of rape should be given special medical consideration when having to deal with this type of thing.

2) An abortion doesn't wipe away a rape. So if the "memory" of being raped is all you're concerned about, rest assured: it still happened.

Please read this. When women are raped that lose all control over their body. Their choices, desires, and decisions do not matter at all. Would you really support laws that would further deny them control over their body?

I Was Raped, And It Got Me Pregnant -- What Akin and Other Extremists Will Never Understand

Rep. Akin and those who argue about “legitimate” rape, you have no idea what you are talking about. You don’t know what it is like to have your sacredness ripped away, ferociously taken without your permission. A pregnancy resulting from rape is a reminder of violence, hatred and brutality forced upon your body. And to tell a woman who has gone through the horror of being raped – which can and does, in fact, result in pregnancy – that she again does not have the power or control to decide what happens to her body afterward is an outrage of epic proportions.

EDIT:

I still haven't heard a good argument about why it's not okay to abort, but it's okay to not legally force parents to use their bodies to save the lives of their already born children, or even other adults. Why should it ever be okay to legally force someone to use the internal parts of their body to keep another human being alive?

I'm also really liking this argument and would like to see someone try and counter it.
 
Akin Raises Over $200,000 Since ‘Legitimate Rape’ Comment

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/24/todd-akin-gets-online-fundraising-boost/

Boosted by a fund-raising appeal from Mike Huckabee, embattled Senate candidate Todd Akin has raised $206,000 online since his "legitimate rape" comment inflamed the political universe last Sunday.

Akin's web consultant Wesley Donehue told CNN that the donations came from 3,300 unique contributors online, and did not include checks that are "pouring in" to the campaign.

A late Thursday email blast from Huckabee urging conservatives to donate to Akin's campaign has sparked a "dramatic uptick" in donations, Donehue told CNN.
 
The only rebuttal so far has been the fetus didn't choose to be created.
How is that even a rebuttal? No one chooses to be created.

If you are forced to carry a baby you are being forced to use your uterus to keep a person alive. If you support this then you should support forcing parents to give up their kidneys, lungs, bone marrow, and maybe even heart to keep their children alive.

Other than, "well a fetus is different because", I don't see any counter argument to this logic.
 
I'm also really liking this argument and would like to see someone try and counter it.

Playing the devil's advocate:

Because she put that human in her uterus.

Argument isn't viable when it comes to rape though, and technically, she didn't really chose to put the fetus in her uterus - it happens automatically and without her knowledge.
 
Playing the devil's advocate:

Because she put that human in her uterus.

Argument isn't viable when it comes to rape though, and technically, she didn't really chose to put the fetus in her uterus - it happens automatically and without her knowledge.

I think that position sometimes stems from this weird notion that if you accidentally get pregnant, you should just blindly "accept your punishment". Because no one should ever just enjoy sex for its own sake. If there's a way for a woman to "duck her responsibilities" of 9 months of crazy biological changes, then that's just not fair!

Probably a holdover from the "any sex that doesn't result in a baby is bad and you should feel guilty about it!" mindset that has been so prevalent in our society.
 
Playing the devil's advocate:

Because she put that human in her uterus.

Argument isn't viable when it comes to rape though, and technically, she didn't really chose to put the fetus in her uterus - it happens automatically and without her knowledge.

It's not viable ever. A woman doesn't choose to become pregnant who doesn't already want one. And even then she can't will it to happen. It's not an exact science.
 
Playing the devil's advocate:

Because she put that human in her uterus.

Argument isn't viable when it comes to rape though, and technically, she didn't really chose to put the fetus in her uterus - it happens automatically and without her knowledge.

She likely didn't do it on purpose. So your argument is that parents should be forced to give things from inside their own bodies to their already born children if whatever is medically wrong with them is caused by the parent?

Car accident caused by you? you give up body parts.
Car accident caused by somebody else? whoever caused it gives up body parts.
Hereditary disease? you give up body parts.

In order to agree with anti-abortion views it seems to me you'd have to agree to make this sort of legal change in order to be logically consistent.
 
Without replying to all the responses of my last post, I'll just say that I've changed my mind slightly about the exception for abortion when it comes to rape victims. Like I it was pointed out before, the woman has no say in the matter and forcing her to carry a child only amplifies that fact. However, it's not the baby's fault and no one (much like the mother) should have to suffer for another person's crime. So in both scenarios, someone's going to suffer tremendously.

With that said, I withdraw my hat from the ring on this specific issue; I'm going neutral. Rape victim vs. unborn child? I'm siding with neither. Whatever happens, happens. If the legislation came down to my vote, I'd abstain or defer to someone else. I'm not picking.

I've wrestled with the notion that rape is a reasonable exception to the rule....and if anything were to qualify as an good exception, this would probably be the only one. But we're not talking about making an exception for a guy on crutches who wants to cut in line or giving someone preferential treatment because of their long-standing and unmatched loyalty. No one's life is at stake in these examples. And this back-and-forth is pretty exhausting....because when it's all said and done, someone is going to have to pay the price for what a rapist did. And the benefit of one is at the expense of another.

edit:

She likely didn't do it on purpose. So your argument is that parents should be forced to give things from inside their own bodies to their already born children if whatever is medically wrong with them is caused by the parent?

Car accident caused by you? you give up body parts.
Car accident caused by somebody else? whoever caused it gives up body parts.
Hereditary disease? you give up body parts.

In order to agree with anti-abortion views it seems to me you'd have to agree to make this sort of legal change in order to be logically consistent.

The argument is that it's wrong to destroy life because of its convenience. These other examples don't make sense.
 
Why is it right to kill a foreign soldier? Or a black man in New York who needs to get his wallet out?

Death Penalty, self defense, as well.

We've already decided as a society that life is not an absolute and that there are times we can legally take others lives.
 
We've already decided as a society that life is not an absolute and that there are times we can legally take others lives.
Yep. Usually when that person's life or liberty infringes upon another's.

Men, not fetuses.
True this, but it can get a little fuzzy.

Because it was taken as an axiom in a motto? What if I prefer libertie, egalitie, fraternitie?
Its not a motto, its an inalienable right. The point is that these rights are not government constructs, and the government does not grant us these rights - these rights already exist, and government exists to protect those rights.
 
Because the dead don't get to enjoy things like asking why it's wrong to destroy life.

You're classing 'the dead' as entities in order to claim that they are deprived by the act of destroying life. This is an error as no such entities are known to exist.
 
Yep. Usually when that person's life or liberty infringes upon another's.


True this, but it can get a little fuzzy.


Its not a motto, its an inalienable right. The point is that these rights are not government constructs, and the government does not grant us these rights - these rights already exist, and government exists to protect those rights.

How can a right exist without a power to ensure that it is protected?

Still interested in seeing these questions answered by anyone for an abortion ban:

How would one handle a ban on abortion?
Would it be by making the act of abortion illegal, or would it be by giving the fetus a right to life that supersedes the pregnant woman's right to control her body?

If you had a pregnant woman in custody who intended to get an abortion, would you keep her in jail until she has given birth?
Would you strap her down until she gives birth if she doesn't comply?

If someone is irresponsible when it comes to sex, why would it be a good idea to make them deal with the massive responsibility that a child is?
Do you think that their previous irresponsibleness will result in them being responsible when it comes to caring for the kid?
 
Without replying to all the responses of my last post, I'll just say that I've changed my mind slightly about the exception for abortion when it comes to rape victims. Like I it was pointed out before, the woman has no say in the matter and forcing her to carry a child only amplifies that fact. However, it's not the baby's fault and no one (much like the mother) should have to suffer for another person's crime. So in both scenarios, someone's going to suffer tremendously.

I have not been reading the entirety of this conversation, but have you given any justification for forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term in other situations? Why do you think it is justifiable to force a woman to carry a fetus to term against her will?
 
You're classing 'the dead' as entities in order to claim that they are deprived by the act of destroying life. This is an error as no such entities are known to exist.
A live body and a dead body contain the same number of particles. Structurally, there's no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts. Why should I be concerned?
 
A live body and a dead body contain the same number of particles. Structurally, there's no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts. Why should I be concerned?

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. My position is that deprivation is qualia, an experience, so in order for it to exist, an entity must experience it.

Its not a motto, its an inalienable right. The point is that these rights are not government constructs, and the government does not grant us these rights - these rights already exist, and government exists to protect those rights.

It is absolutely a motto. Also, I'm not convinced that an inalienable right can exist. I've never seen one in the wild, certainly.

My real point here is that by taking the absolute sacredness of human life as an axiom, you're incorporating the conclusion you're trying to demonstrate as a premise of the argument you're trying to demonstrate it with.
 
I have not been reading the entirety of this conversation, but have you given any justification for forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term in other situations? Why do you think it is justifiable to force a woman to carry a fetus to term against her will?
I imagine it's because life is so uber sacred that the woman's choice doesn't matter at all. They don't think of it as forcing women to do something against their will, they see it as saving a precious baby.
 
Of course.

So then, why are humans that are no longer in the womb not given the same rights that you feel a fetus should have?

If you cause a situation where another human will die without the use of another person's body parts (a fetus needing a mother's body to survive, a car accident you caused where the person hurt needs blood or an organ, a hereditary disease that you gave your child where they need an organ transplant or blood or bone marrow), from an anti-abortion standpoint, logically you should be forced use your body to keep that person alive, the same way a mother is forced to use her body to keep a fetus alive.

If the fetus is equal to a full-fledged, already born human, then both should have the same rights and protections.
 
I imagine it's because life is so uber sacred that the woman's choice doesn't matter at all. They don't think of it as forcing women to do something against their will, they see it as saving a precious baby.

I am still interested in MIMIC's answer, but my feeling is that if life is that sacred that forcing a woman to carry a baby to term for nine months, a decision with an indisputable impact on her health and a notably higher risk to her mortality than an abortion would have, is the right thing to do, it should also be the right thing to do in cases of rape or incest.
 
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