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[Volimar]

Should have given them a sip of that sweet Dr.Pepper. Defused the situation right then and there.

23 flavors of justice!

 

[Dude Abides]

I understand the impulse to try to stick up for yourself but it's not worth it. The cops will do whatever they want and make up whatever lies they need to justify it afterwards.

Should have given them a sip of that sweet Dr.Pepper. Defused the situation right then and there.

Oh, Kendall.

 

[Turbo Killer]

To be fair a lot of people miss the lights in all the commotion of normal traffic. That's why they have the sirens and white noise.

Yeah, I do too. However I assume this cop was directly behind him for a while hence why he was pissed.

Also OP pick your battles, if he is rude still be nice to them, you'll live longer.

 

[captive]

Ok I'm going to attempt to explain what the officers did and why from my 15 years as a police officer. You can feel free to disagree, and I'm not going to say the officers handled it in the best possible way, but hear me out. I don't normally post in these threads anymore because of the overwhelming anti-cop sentiment (often justifiable, often not) on this board.

A furtive movement is something that appears to a trained officer to be movements that are suspicious and can possibly believed to be trying to conceal something which may be dangerous. You admit that it took you longer to pull over than it should have because you didn't see or hear the officer behind you. Look at this through the eyes of the officer. Most good drivers check their rearview and side mirrors every 5-10 seconds. Couple that with moving to take a drink (which the officer obviously can't see) and you shifting your transmission (again can't see from behind), give the impression that you may be intentionally hiding something before you pull over. That's furtive movement.

I never admitted this, he claimed it, I have no idea how long he was following me. I appreciate your response as an officer. I honestly didnt see him, I was just driving.

Now he asked you to step out of the car because a) the movement could indicate that you were hiding a weapon under your seat (a reasonable assumption based on you not pulling over and your body movement) and b) the officer doesn't need a reason to ask you to step out of the vehicle. We can have ever person get out of the vehicle on every traffic stop if we so choose.

I know he doesnt need a reason, but i can still ask anyway.

After stepping out of the car, when the officer looked in your window, he was looking at the seat and center console area for anything dangerous or in plain view. He does not need your permission to look in your window. If you were still sitting in your car, would he not be looking in the window to talk to you? Dropping your "I don't consent to any searches" that you learned on YouTube doesn't earn you any points with police.

Yes he can look in my car for things in plain view, however knowing i have a pie in there for my wife, a dr pepper and my laptop bag i know that there is in fact no probable cause to search my car.

Now add the fact that you put your hands in your pockets. Officers are trained to watch people's hands very closely. He already believed you might have a weapon in the vehicle, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make the connection that instead of putting a weapon under your seat, you could have also put it in your pants, which is why he yelled at you to not do that.

Yea i know i shouldnt but i am not accostomed to being taken out of a car, and i dont like my hands just hanging at my sides.

The smartass comment about not wanting to be shot didn't help your case.

yea, i dont care. Its the truth. I've seen far too many "you tube videos" as you put it, of officers shooting at people for little no reason.

There is supreme Court case law on exactly what the officer told you. Just like Terry v Ohio allows pat downs for weapons without probable cause, there is another case that does the same for vehicles. I've never heard of the term "lunge area" but it's more commonly referred to as areas of immediate control. Which from the seat where the person in question was sitting, is anything that is within reach. Typically under the driver's seat, front floor, glove box, center console, and under passenger seat. No warrant or probable cause is needed for these searches for weapons.

Do you have a link, i can't find anything on it.


Again i appreciate your opinion as an officer. However, I believe the problem is police automatically treating everyone as a criminal. Thats honestly how i felt i was being treated. Maybe its a downside of the job of constantly dealing with criminal, idunno.

 

[HeySeuss]

No lie you I would like to see a thread made about the ins and outs of what is/is not within our rights and what a cop can and cannot do.

Not gonna lie I've thought about it. Maybe I will someday.

 

[Calvero]

You didn't see flashing multi colored lights in your THREE mirrors that point backwards? Yeah ok.

I said I didnt see him with his lights on

this makes it sound like he saw the car, but it had no lights on? no idea tho

 

[100%TrophyMaster]

Should have given them a sip of that sweet Dr.Pepper. Defused the situation right then and there.

LIIIIILLLLL SWWWWEEEEEET!!!!!!

Cop: "uhhh....is that Lil' Sweet in your passenger seat?"
OP: "Who?"
Cop: "You know... Lil'Sweet...."
OP: "You don't have permission to search Lil'Sweet!!!!"
Cop: "But...I wanna search him...."
*OP revs the engine and then drives off into the sunset*
LILLLLLLL SWEEET "Its the sweet one!"

 

[Mick Swagger]

A lot of departments around the US have shifted away from badge numbers and moved to Officer ID (OID) numbers. They're not tied to a specific badge or anything.

Bunch of shitty cops just laugh it off when you ask for their badge number knowing they can legally skate around the request as you did not request the "appropriate" officer identification from them.

 

[captive]

also did some of you miss the part of him threatening to take me to jail for no reason? Yea i probably didnt help the situation with some of the things i did and on the other hand there are some cops that dont like it at all when you know your rights or "think you know your rights", but i am also not a cop that's supposed to be trained to deal with the general public. The onus should be on him to de-escalate.

 

[HeySeuss]

I never admitted this, he claimed it, I have no idea how long he was following me. I appreciate your response as an officer. I honestly didnt see him, I was just driving.

I know he doesnt need a reason, but i can still ask anyway.

Yes he can look in my car for things in plain view, however knowing i have a pie in there for my wife, a dr pepper and my laptop bag i know that there is in fact no probable cause to search my car.
Yea i know i shouldnt but i am not accostomed to being taken out of a car, and i dont like my hands just hanging at my sides. yea, i dont care. Its the truth. I've seen far too many "you tube videos" as you put it, of officers shooting at people for little no reason.
Do you have a link, i can't find anything on it.


Again i appreciate your opinion as an officer. However, I believe the problem is police automatically treating everyone as a criminal. Thats honestly how i felt i was being treated. Maybe its a downside of the job of constantly dealing with criminal, idunno.

The protective sweep for vehicles case is United States v McCraney or also Arizona v Johnson. Traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things we do.

They treated you the way they did because they thought you were stuffing a weapon under your seat before you finally pulled over. It sucks all the way around and I understand, but your actions (even though explainable and understandable) looked like something they weren't.

That's one of the things that hinders officers. We constantly train for the worst possible scenario, that we go from 1 to holy shit we're gonna die!!! Without always using common sense along the way. I understand why we train the way we do, but most officers will go their entire career without ever drawing their gun at someone.

 

[Pizza]

When driving I'm constantly looking for cops, I always assume I'm about to get rekt after driving slightly bad caused me to get pulled over a few times.

I may or may not have had things I'd prefer a cop not to find in my car.

I'm driving at night, notice a cop shaped car behind me, think "I see u" and immediately his lights are on.

I pull over slowly and deliberately into a spot (I pulled into the spot terribly because I was panicking as to whether or not that'd be a problem)

I have my hands at 10 and 2 and once I've stopped I, as obviously as possible, drop the cigar I was smoking RIGHT next to my car to avoid the smoke in the guy's face

Guy comes over to my window and curtly asks for my lisence, I tell him my wallet is in my back pocket and that I'll have struggle a bit to get it. He couldn't care less.

Asks for my registration, I inform him it's in the glove box and it may be buried under some stuff. He's fine with that too.

As he's reading this I ask as politely as humanly possible "may I ask why I've been pulled over, sir?"

I made a turn in a turning lane without a turn signal.

My lisence doesn't show any information about me at all in their database. He's asking me why that is and I'm quietly having a panic attack, really preferring them not to have any reason to ask me to get out of my car

He eventually asks for my student ID to use instead, sounding crazy suspicious and wary of me. Luckily I have it on me and he's able to confirm my identity.

As I pull out I notice at least two other cops had parked in my blind spots

That shit could've gone south real fast. Obviously I'm white, but I generally look pretty shady honestly. Here in Texas you're either going to get someone chill af or someone looking to haul your ass downtown. I got lucky with this dude, I once got pulled over because a cop was driving so poorly that it made me look at fault and she was ready to cause me problems.

I grew up in, what I now as an adult realize was, a fairly verbally/emotionally abusive household, so flipping the "absolutely fine human being with nothing to hide" comes naturally to me under pressure.

My skin color helps most though, and that's absolutely fucked. Every interaction I've had with a police officer started incredibly tense until I talked my way out of it. I wouldn't even have that chance if I was a brown dude. It's fucking upsetting.

Op idk how you got out of that so nicely. I just hide from the law.

 

[L Thammy]

also did some of you miss the part of him threatening to take me to jail for no reason? Yea i probably didnt help the situation with some of the things i did and on the other hand there are some cops that dont like it at all when you know your rights or "think you know your rights", but i am also not a cop that's supposed to be trained to deal with the general public. The onus should be on him to de-escalate.

Going by HeySeuss' explanation, I assume that the threat had to do with them thinking you had a weapon in your pockets, which would sound like they failed to explain their reasoning rather than just threatening you for no reason.

Also, the "I'm allowed to cause problems for myself because it's the cop's responsibility to solve them" attitude doesn't really get you any sympathy from me. It's a janitor's job to clean the floor, but I'm not going to go out of my way to dirty it.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Not gonna lie I've thought about it. Maybe I will someday.

I would appreciate it I have seen you post on GAF and you seem reasonable. My experience with cops have been varied, when I used to wear a fade, wear polo and whatnot I got messed with cops pulling me over rolling around. I got long funky hair and a hipster vibe going on now and do not get the attention of the law.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Most good drivers check their rearview and side mirrors every 5-10 seconds.

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

 

[jviggy43]

You were in the right, but the way you addressed the police escalated the situation and rule of thumb with most police is, acting high and mighty and telling them what they can and can't do is only going to piss them off. Just be polite and don't bother with the unnecessary comments unless its absolutely necessary.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

I always check for other drivers and traffic like that.

 

[L Thammy]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

I failed my first driving test because it wasn't obvious enough that was looking in the mirrors every five seconds. Seriously, I had to practice turning my head instead of just my eyes. But that's in Canada.

 

[rjinaz]

Truth be told police pretty much have absolute authority and we the people have very little rights until we get to the courtroom and even then, it largely depends on your wealth and how good of a lawyer you can afford. Otherwise expect the courts to side with the police.

It became a police state and most people don't care because they rarely have to deal with police and they see it as a problem mostly thugs (minorities) have to deal with and figure that they are probably guilty anyway.

 

[xxracerxx]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

I check mine pretty frequently, even when staying in a single lane. It's about knowing what is around you. Now ask a motorcyclists and they will be checking more frequently.

 

[Volimar]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

I've never timed myself, but probably not that often. Probably more like 20-30 seconds if I'm honest.

 

[HeySeuss]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

That's how I was taught in drivers Ed. And again in emergency driving that I've had as an officer. Every 5 seconds might be a bit much but 10-15 seconds is pretty normal. You should always be scanning in all directions. You don't stare at the mirrors, just glance at them for hazards.

 

[RumblingRosco]

I always check for other drivers and traffic like that.

I failed my first driving test because it wasn't obvious enough that was looking in the mirrors every five seconds. Seriously, I had to practice turning my head instead of just my eyes. But that's in Canada.

Honestly, it seems like you're spending about 1-2 seconds checking all 3 mirrors every 5 seconds, which to me means your eyes are off the road 20-40% of the time. I'm probably getting off topic here, but I'm not convinced that religiously checking mirrors prevents accidents - obviously, if you're planning on switching lanes or anything along those lines you need to check your mirrors and blindspots, but when simply cruising ahead? I can't see the benefit. I'll look into it more though to see if there are any good studies or reports about the benefit of looking around you every 5 seconds.

 

[Bunta]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

Yes, to make sure there isn't anyone coming up on me, cop or otherwise. Mostly my rear view, depends on the type of road I'm on.

 

[Keri]

I think if you're going to have your music up so loud, you can't hear sirens, then you should obviously be checking your mirrors frequently.

 

[wedca]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

Absolutely. Good awareness of the other vehicles on the road is one of the most important parts of safe driving.

Also, it is annoying when people don't check their mirrors and coast along in the passing lane holding up everyone who actually wants to pass.

 

[RumblingRosco]

I think if you're going to have your music up so loud, you can't hear sirens, then you should obviously be checking your mirrors frequently.

I'll concede this point - if you can't hear, then you need to be able to see and should be doing so frequently. This is a good point that I glossed over in the OP's story.

Also, it is annoying when people don't check their mirrors and coast along in the passing lane holding up everyone who actually wants to pass.

Shouldn't be in the left lanes anyway unless you're rapidly passing someone and then moving back into the right lane. But, you're right, people that hang out in a lane and don't move so people can pass are creating a dangerous situation.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Honestly, it seems like you're spending about 1-2 seconds checking all 3 mirrors every 5 seconds, which to me means your eyes are off the road 20-40% of the time. I'm probably getting off topic here, but I'm not convinced that religiously checking mirrors prevents accidents - obviously, if you're planning on switching lanes or anything along those lines you need to check your mirrors and blindspots, but when simply cruising ahead? I can't see the benefit. I'll look into it more though to see if there are any good studies or reports about the benefit of looking around you every 5 seconds.

It's really just a quick glance. My cousin caught a freaking trailer with nothing pulling it that way, it was crazy just seeing it roll on the highway.

 

[Brakke]

knowing i have a pie in there for my wife, a dr pepper and my laptop bag i know that there is in fact no probable cause to search my car.

I don't think you understand probable cause. How's he going to know your laptop bag only has a laptop in it if he doesn't look? If you wanna challenge his claim to cause, your answer can't be "I don't have anything" but that "I wasn't acting suspiciously". But that's a hard case for you to make since he was seeing someone making arm movements through car glass obscured by glare and seat backs and shit.

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

I'm probably close to it. Gotta keep your head on a swivel.

 

[xxracerxx]

I'll concede this point - if you can't hear, then you need to be able to see and should be doing so frequently. This is a good point that I glossed over in the OP's story.

You should be checking your rearview more, it seems from your posts. Just do it every 20 seconds, it is better to know what is all around you than not.

 

[XT Vengeance]

All of those cops should have their badges taken away. They are bullies who just get off on harassing people. That they wouldn't give you their identification is reason enough to assume that they KNOW they are doing wrong.

 

[Forearms]

While I don't agree with everything the OP did/said during the stop, especially the part of putting his hands in his pockets, it sounds like the cops were assholes. Regardless of a position of authority, if you aren't willing to answer simple requests for name and identification numbers, provide proof of why the traffic stop was occurring (supposedly speeding), or explain, in normal terms, why you're requesting specific actions, then you've just become exactly what the public at large hates - a cop on a power trip.

HeySeuss provides some valuable insight, but certainly isn't looking at this through the eyes of the person being stopped in the middle of their afternoon commute (seemingly without reason). While they may be trained to expect "worst case scenarios", this shouldn't be the default mode of operation. Maybe they should spend some more time thinking about how they can interact with the person they're about to pull over to make the situation more amicable/relaxed, as they're the ones exerting authority, not the other way around.

 

[commedieu]

Truth be told police pretty much have absolute authority and we the people have very little rights until we get to the courtroom and even then, it largely depends on your wealth and how good of a lawyer you can afford. Otherwise expect the courts to side with the police.

It became a police state and most people don't care because they rarely have to deal with police and they see it as a problem mostly thugs (minorities) have to deal with and figure that they are probably guilty anyway.

Yep.

You just have to pander to their ego, and move on. *in America*

 

[captive]

I check mine pretty frequently, even when staying in a single lane. It's about knowing what is around you. Now ask a motorcyclists and they will be checking more frequently.

it was a two lane(one lane each direction) oldschool highway, so the only people to really worry about are people coming directly toward me. We were just coming out of a very small town, so i was up shifting, I dont normally drive stick or my wife's car, so i was watching the RPMs to see when i needed to shift.

 

[Ri'Orius]

There is supreme Court case law on exactly what the officer told you. Just like Terry v Ohio allows pat downs for weapons without probable cause, there is another case that does the same for vehicles. I've never heard of the term "lunge area" but it's more commonly referred to as areas of immediate control. Which from the seat where the person in question was sitting, is anything that is within reach. Typically under the driver's seat, front floor, glove box, center console, and under passenger seat. No warrant or probable cause is needed for these searches for weapons.

...

The key is that the officer has to be able to articulate it. And in this case based on what you admitted to, the officers did meet that threshold of reasonableness

I can understand "we need to search you/your immediate area for our safety," but if OP is out of the car can they really search the glove box under that rationale? Like, if OP was staying put in the driver's seat, sure maybe he could go for a gun in there, but once he's out of the car a search of the glove box isn't safety related.

Also, is saying "you were making furtive movements" really considered articulating a reason? That sounds like the most vague term possible. "He looked suspicious" isn't an articulated reason, it's catch-all CYA bullshit.

 

[wedca]

Shouldn't be in the left lanes anyway unless you're rapidly passing someone and then moving back into the right lane. But, you're right, people that hang out in a lane and don't move so people can pass are creating a dangerous situation.

Yeah, a lot of people are really dedicated to picking a lane and sticking with it, haha.

 

[xxracerxx]

it was a two lane(one lane each direction) oldschool highway, so the only people to really worry about are people coming directly toward me. We were just coming out of a very small town, so i was up shifting, I dont normally drive stick or my wife's car, so i was watching the RPMs to see when i needed to shift.

Nah, this is a terrible way to look at risk while driving. Shit can happen from all directions.

 

[captive]

I don't think you understand probable cause. How's he going to know your laptop bag only has a laptop in it if he doesn't look? If you wanna challenge his claim to cause, your answer can't be "I don't have anything" but that "I wasn't acting suspiciously". But that's a hard case for you to make since he was seeing someone making arm movements through car glass obscured by glare and seat backs and shit.

because my laptop bag wasn't in my immediate reach, which is what they explained a lunge search to me as. He did not get to search my laptop bag, nor the passenger seat.

 

[jellies_two]

I have been stopped twice by the nypd for speeding and both times they were super nice however I know it was because i was white, and driving a nice car. I don't see how anyone white can lecture any non whife person that they failed the attitude test etc, it is exactly because I got the kid glove treatment and not the "cops" treatment that I know discrimination is a thing.

Maybe if cops started ignoring skin color and socio economic status and started being assholes to everyone then there would be pressure for change. But with Jefffery Beauregard sessions the second in charge we know that isn't gonna happen.

 

[rjinaz]

Yep.

You just have to pander to their ego, and move on. *in America*

It's what I do. Do I like it? Nope. But I also know that the courts are ruling in favor for the police time and time again giving them more ways to give them more authority and less accountability while stripping away our rights.

I keep my head down as a White American. I can't even imagine what a Black American must feel.

 

[L Thammy]

because my laptop bag wasn't in my immediate reach, which is what they explained a lunge search to me as. He did not get to search my laptop bag, nor the passenger seat.

When I go to Burger King, I sometimes leave the bag on the passenger's seat and sneak onion rings on red lights. I don't even have to look over, just stick my hand out. I would think that the passenger seat is in the lunge area for that reason; is that not possible in your car?

Also, where as the laptop bag? Was it in the back seat or further?

 

[HeySeuss]

I can understand "we need to search you/your immediate area for our safety," but if OP is out of the car can they really search the glove box under that rationale? Like, if OP was staying put in the driver's seat, sure maybe he could go for a gun in there, but once he's out of the car a search of the glove box isn't safety related.

Also, is saying "you were making furtive movements" really considered articulating a reason? That sounds like the most vague term possible. "He looked suspicious" isn't an articulated reason, it's catch-all CYA bullshit.

Yeah even if he's not in the car an officer can search those areas under the reasonable suspicion rationale because the glove box can be accessed from the driver's seat.

They do have to be able to say what the furtive actions were in order for it to be legal, and not use it as a catch all. Here it would be supported by the extended time it took for him to pull over, and the 2 separate body movements while the officer was trying to pull him over that from behind looked as though he was hiding a weapon.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

There's a huge difference between knowing your rights and THINKING you know your rights. Most people don't know what police can and can't do. Outside of potentially being assholes (probably as a result of the ops actions), they didn't do anything to violate his rights here. Should they have not had the attitude they did? Sure that's easy to say. But that's a minor complaint as opposed to a rights violation here which did not happen.

Just wanted to say thanks for the contributions you make to this site. I don't live in the US but I'm striving to join the police service in my country, and I find your posts from an American policing viewpoint to be both informative and well articulated. It's also nice having some first hand experience behind a post rather than raw emotions or what people "think" the facts are.

I've had to constantly correct my friends and family on what police are allowed to do and not do from the Police Powers and Responsibilities Act: 2000 in my state's legislation.

 

[exmachina64]

Serious question, but does anyone in this thread actually check their side and rearview mirrors every 5 seconds? I've never heard of anyone consistently checking their side/rear mirrors like that unless they were planning to shift lanes, make a turn, or in some other fashion alter their expected path. I don't recall ever being taught to check my mirrors every 5 seconds.

I do.

 

[Shadybiz]

it was a two lane(one lane each direction) oldschool highway, so the only people to really worry about are people coming directly toward me. We were just coming out of a very small town, so i was up shifting, I dont normally drive stick or my wife's car, so i was watching the RPMs to see when i needed to shift.

It really does not take that long to flick your eyes to the tachometer and back. Should still be checking your rearview to make sure no one is speeding up on your ass.

And why were you ACTUALLY being pulled over? Meaning, what were you being pulled over for before it became about you not pulling over within an acceptable amount of time?

 

[Brakke]

Dog you were on a one lane road and you didn't see flashers behind you? No wonder officer was wary of you, you looked like you were stalling.

 

[Jmanunknown]

I got pulled over today. I've been pulled over a few times in my life, but i have never dealt with such a rude, domineering officer in my life.

Background, im a 32 year old white male driving my wife's audi. Never been arrested, or ever taken into custody for anything. Never given anything other than a traffic citation.

Immediately after pulling over this officer asks my why i took so long to pull over and to step out of the car.
I said I didnt see him with his lights on, nor did i hear as i had the radio on. I then asked why he was asking me to step out of my car, he wouldnt give me a reason other than "furtive movements", but demanded again. I said my furtive movements were me drinking my dp pepper and using the stick shift.

I step out, he immediately starts looking in my driver side window, I said you do not have permission to search my car, nor does he have probable cause to search it.

I instinctively put my hands in my pockets, he flips his lid and says dont do that he's not putting his hands in his pockets. At this point im not sure what happened other than him yelling at me on the side of the road, as i'm so mad and upset. Other than him threatening to take me to jail, of which he did not explain what for.

He then asks for my drivers license, i explain to him that its in my back right pocket and that im going to reach for it and that i don't want to get shot today. He mouths off and says really why would i do that i just asked you for your DL. I give it him and he goes and runs it.

At this point another squad car shows up. its at this point that I ask for both officers badges and names for the first time, and do not receive them.

Officer 1 gets out and explains to me that he's going to search my "lunge area." Its at this point i asked him if he was trained to escalate or de-escalate situations because he's been very rude talking over me, interrupting after asking me a questions. He says his body camera is recording and points to it and says do you know what this is. I said good.

I said I do not consent and that he doesnt have probable cause to search my car. Officer 2 then says the supreme court has ruled that they can in fact search the lunge area because of "furtive movements." I said i still do not consent. They then call their supervisor.

While waiting for him, I then ask again for both officers badges and names, I again do not receive them.

Supervisor shows up and explains that they can search the lunge area because of furtive movements, I still say i do not consent and that there's nothing in there and that my furtive movements were me drinking my dr pepper and using the stick shift.

I tell them i will let them search the lunge area if i can record them doing it. Officer 2 stands behind him recording with his body camera because Officer 1's body camera "stopped working."

I ask them to see the radar recording of my speed, they say that i cannot see it. I sign the ticket and they let me go.


I plan on calling the supervisor and asking for their badge numbers and names again. May file a complaint on Officer 1, out of principle, which will likely amount to nothing. And i plan on doing more research on this "lunge search" ruling, so far i'm not finding much. And of course, out of principle i will delay and fight the speeding ticket.

Before you start quoting anything check my post history, i'm a firm supporter of BLM. And completely recognize that if i were black or brown i may not be posting this right now.

After going through what you said it sound like the officers in this encounter thought you were on drugs or had drugs and were looking for the tiniest thing to catch you on. Did anyone of the officers pat you down? because if they thought you had a weapon they would have searched you.

 

[besada]

The protective sweep for vehicles case is United States v McCraney or also Arizona v Johnson. Traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things we do.

They treated you the way they did because they thought you were stuffing a weapon under your seat before you finally pulled over. It sucks all the way around and I understand, but your actions (even though explainable and understandable) looked like something they weren't.

That's one of the things that hinders officers. We constantly train for the worst possible scenario, that we go from 1 to holy shit we're gonna die!!! Without always using common sense along the way. I understand why we train the way we do, but most officers will go their entire career without ever drawing their gun at someone.

Arizona v Gant suggests that it's possible training hasn't kept up with the law. You are allowed to search the lunge area or wingspan area, but only while the driver is in the car and it would be possible for him to reach a concealed weapon in that area. Arizona v Gant was very specifically about this issue. Same basic case, where the person was removed from the car, then they searched it.

The Gant Court did not specifically address non-vehicular SIAs. The majority, however, in its examination of Chimel, reiterated that the scope of the SIA exception is limited to serving the purposes of ”protecting arresting officers and safeguarding any evidence of the offense of arrest that an arrestee might conceal or destroy."14 Therefore, ”f there is no possibility that an arrestee could reach into the area that law enforcement officers seek to search, both justifications for the search-incident-to-arrest exception are absent and the rule does not apply."15 This language appears to strongly favor the minority ”Houdini" analysis, which considers accessibility at the time of the search.

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...ch-by-subject/4th-amendment/ArizonaVsGant.pdf

 

[HeySeuss]

Just wanted to say thanks for the contributions you make to this site. I don't live in the US but I'm striving to join the police service in my country, and I find your posts from an American policing viewpoint to be both informative and well articulated. It's also nice having some first hand experience behind a post rather than raw emotions or what people "think" the facts are.

I've had to constantly correct my friends and family on what police are allowed to do and not do from the Police Powers and Responsibilities Act: 2000 in my state's legislation.

My pleasure. I don't want people to think I'm of the mindset of "just shut up and let the police do what they want", because a person's rights are very important and should be stood up for. But what I see too often is people who watched that YouTube video on what to do when talking to police and whatever they read in online forms as gospel completely gets applied to the wrong situations and people just don't understand why officers sometimes do what they do and why they can.

Officers abuse their power every day. I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all. People should take a stand when that happens. But understand the difference and make sure what you think you know is being applied in the right context. There are so many variables that change things drastically and most people don't understand those things.

 

[fastmower]

Fight the good fight. Thanks for sharing.

 

[K.Jack]

Or... Everything To Not Do If You're Black 101.

Putting your hands in your pockets, in front of an agitated police officer, is suicide around my way.

How long was he trying to pull you over?