Support NeoGAF

[ChiefDada]

Any idea when is that showcase taking place?

Lol, no clue. Downside of GoW Ragnarok is Sony can ride on silence for the next 3 months.

I think with diminishing returns maybe today's consoles are underpowered relative to ps4/xb1 still because games are more resource demanding today. So many last gen games that have gotten next gen upgrades that can't run higher than still don't equal the PC versions that released 2 years ago.

You are making apples to tennis balls comparison here; contextually, that's like being frustrated with PS5 doing a poor job of running a PS3 game. Fact of the matter is we have new consoles designed to run best under new streaming and rendering pipelines, instead they are basically brute forcing under antiquated methods. Application of Geometry Engine/Mesh Shaders alone would free up considerable performance from PS5/Series consoles. Not to mention numerous other current gen hardware/software features. Folks like Lethal will be proven wrong (whether or not they admit it is another thing entirely).

Justice MMO is the only game I know of actually utilizing mesh shading - 3060ti rendering at 4k60. This is why DF is plain wrong when they claim current gen games will cause bring back 30fps as a mandate.

In December, we interviewed Haiyong Qian, NetEase Game Engine Development Researcher and Manager of NetEase Thunder Fire Games Technical Center, to see what he’s learned as the Justice team added NVIDIA ray-tracing solutions to their development pipeline. Their results were nothing short of stunning with local 8K DLSS support and global illumination through RTXGI. Recently, NetEase introduced Mesh Shader support to Justice. Not only are the updated environments breathtaking, the game supports 1.8 billion triangles running over 60 FPS in 4K on an NVIDIA 3060Ti.

Also see Nvidia quote from the Asteroid mesh shader demo:

Asteroids achieves very high frame rates by moving key object list processing performance bottlenecks off of the CPU and into highly parallel GPU mesh shading programs.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Friendly reminder that doubting the potential of these current gen consoles isn't a smart move. Sony's next showcase can't come soon enough.

Exactly.

 

[alloush]

 

[H . R . 2]

Any idea when is that showcase taking place?

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/wher...t-updated-poll.1641146/page-14#post-266922751
join us

 

[ResilientBanana]

Visually they're both striking. I feel like where one falls short, the other picks up the slack. They are on the same level.

 

[alloush]

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/wher...t-updated-poll.1641146/page-14#post-266922751
join us

Awesome, thanks for the link I will bookmark it. This very thread is the only thread I visit on Gaf, I do visit other threads from time to time, but this one is the only one that interests me. Now I have a new one to hop on, thanks HR.

Visually they're both striking. I feel like where one falls short, the other picks up the slack. They are on the same level.

Exactly. It is very tough to pick out a winner, they both look good. Like when GoW was being shown I'd say GoW looks better then when it switches to A Plague Tale I'd say that one looks better they're very close. However, I do think A Plague Tale looks a notch better graphically than GoW but then again this is a next-gen only game and barely looks better than a game running on a 9 year old weak hardware.

 

[Emet_bp]

Even though GOWR looks great I'm a bit disappointed that it's not fully utilising PS5's architecture.
As for racing games... I would be pleased if PS5-only GT8 in game looks like GT7 in photo mode. I'm sure it's possible with some optimisations and reducing native resolution form 4K to something like 1440p with FSR.

 

[alloush]

Interested to see what's new/been fixed:

 

[alloush]

 

[alloush]

This game despite it being a corss-gen game and despite it not being a full-blown spiderman game like the first one still looked hella beautiful. I really hope Spiderman 2 is a PS5-only game.

 

[ChiefDada]

This game despite it being a corss-gen game and despite it not being a full-blown spiderman game like the first one still looked hella beautiful. I really hope Spiderman 2 is a PS5-only game.

MM is superb looking for cross-gen, but I was a bit with the way lighting was handled for night setting. It was always overly bright, which I assumed was due to use of lightmaps, inaccurate radiance measure or something similar. It's been a pet peeve of mine for all games. Rift Apart handled it excellently with very minimal artificial lights and happy to see it brought in SM2 with trailer. Just look at that emissive lighting! Now THAT looks like proper night scene!

Also helps to make these specular RT reflections pop even more.

 

[alloush]

MM is superb looking for cross-gen, but I was a bit with the way lighting was handled for night setting. It was always overly bright, which I assumed was due to use of lightmaps, inaccurate radiance measure or something similar. It's been a pet peeve of mine for all games. Rift Apart handled it excellently with very minimal artificial lights and happy to see it brought in SM2 with trailer. Just look at that emissive lighting! Now THAT looks like proper night scene!

Also helps to make these specular RT reflections pop even more.

Yes, I agree the night setting in SM Miles was a bit off but man look at your SM2 gifs. I dunno how SlimySnake whom I agree with on most things graphics-wise didn't think the trailer looked good. Just look at this man, that's some gorgeous stuff.

Also something I noticed in the trailer specifically in the above gif the second one, it seems characters have a bit of weight to them like real humans; at least that's the gist I got from them.

 

[ChiefDada]

Welp, here we go again. I thought this was a capture from the game and so did the vast majority on twitter. We have reached photorealism and it's ok to admit it.

 

[TheRedRiders]

Welp, here we go again. I thought this was a capture from the game and so did the vast majority on twitter. We have reached photorealism and it's ok to admit it.

I do think to some extent, that had Naughty Dog told us Last of Us 2 and Remake are using Unreal Engine 5 with Lumen and Nanite with the exact same visuals we got in the games, I think many posters would be like "muhh look at this actual next-gen title!!".

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Welp, here we go again. I thought this was a capture from the game and so did the vast majority on twitter. We have reached photorealism and it's ok to admit it.

This photo is so heavily edited. I recommend you to go outside from time to time to see how the real world looks like.

Edit. More from her Instagram. Filter diarrhea all over these. The second one looks like she's was copy/pasted into the scene.

 

[ChiefDada]

This photo is so heavily edited. I recommend you to go outside from time to time to see how the real world looks like.

That's not what photorealism means. Do your favorite Sci fi/ comic book movies mirror real life to you or do they also apply heavy edits for stylization?

 

[MidGenRefresh]

That's not what photorealism means. Do your favorite Sci fi/ comic book movies mirror real life to you or do they also apply heavy edits for stylization?

What looks photorealistic to me:

What looks photorealistic to you:

And that's perfectly cool.

 

[SlimySnake]

Yes, I agree the night setting in SM Miles was a bit off but man look at your SM2 gifs. I dunno how SlimySnake whom I agree with on most things graphics-wise didn't think the trailer looked good. Just look at this man, that's some gorgeous stuff.

Also something I noticed in the trailer specifically in the above gif the second one, it seems characters have a bit of weight to them like real humans; at least that's the gist I got from them.

I have no faith in Sony. I remember how they advertised Miles for 6 months. I was there on era cutting gifs of what were clearly fake or souped up cutscenes. PS4 games already look great in cutscrenes. Jstevenson was there and did not say if they were last gen or not.

When I called him out, he got all mad, but whatever. They are saying this is PS5 only. Fine, lets see it. Just look at the new NFS footage. Its next gen only and looks worse than NFS 2015. Look at Dead Space. Next gen only. Looks worse than Callisto Protocol. A Last gen game.

Insomniac might end up making it look better than Miles but as long as they are chasing that native 4k 30-50 fps target, they wont get the next gen upgrade we have come to expect from Matrix and the Unity demos. Just not gonna happen. We already saw it with Ratchet. It's open world areas look worse than HFW a last gen game.

 

[ChiefDada]

I do think to some extent, that had Naughty Dog told us Last of Us 2 and Remake are using Unreal Engine 5 with Lumen and Nanite with the exact same visuals we got in the games, I think many posters would be like "muhh look at this actual next-gen title!!".

Oh absolutely! Trademarks are an incredible tool for influencing customer perception. FSR 2 is another great example. I hear so many GAFers saying "Sony should use FSR 2 for their current gen games" not considering the fact that Sony has been in the AI upscaling business for decades and their ML upscaling tech probably surpasses FSR and more suitable for PS5.

 

[rofif]

This photo is so heavily edited. I recommend you to go outside from time to time to see how the real world looks like.

Edit. More from her Instagram. Filter diarrhea all over these. The second one looks like she's was copy/pasted into the scene.

I think the game totally looks better than this actually.

 

[ChiefDada]

What looks photorealistic to me:

What looks photorealistic to you:

And that's perfectly cool.

Textbook. SMH

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Textbook. SMH

I see you're learning new terms, good for you! Look up defitiontion of photorealism while you at it.

 

[ChiefDada]

I see you're learning new terms, good for you! Look up defitiontion of photorealism while you at it.

On the contrary, my post was for your education. You presented a weak argument, it was exposed, now it's time to move on.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

On the contrary, my post was for your education. You presented a weak argument, it was exposed, now it's time to move on.

I think all this time spend arguing in Spider-Man: Miles Morales PC thread fried your brain. Let me help you:

Definition of PHOTOREALISM

the quality in art (such as animation or painting) of depicting or seeming to depict real people, objects, etc. with the exactness of a photograph; a movement in painting characterized by photographic exactness of detail… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

the quality in art (such as animation or painting) of depicting or seeming to depict real people, objects, etc. with the exactness of a photograph

Photorealism in gaming means the characters and scenery are supposed to mirror real life in visuals as closely as possible.

There are very few games that attempt photorealistic graphics. Most games are heavily stylized, including The Last of Us: Part II.

I think the game totally looks better than this actually.

I agree. These cosplay photos are super over-done.

 

[Lethal01]

Welp, here we go again. I thought this was a capture from the game and so did the vast majority on twitter. We have reached photorealism and it's ok to admit it.

I'll admit that it's becoming evident it's been too long since your last visit to the eye doctor.
We all want games to be able to do photorealism. Let's not start lying to ourself and pretending they already do when we are still a decade away.

 

[CamHostage]

Welp, here we go again. I thought this was a capture from the game and so did the vast majority on twitter...

I think the game totally looks better than this actually.

That's part of the situation we're dealing with here: if modern cinematography and photography are our understanding of "photorealism", then we have no more photorealism. (Technically it shouldn't change the definition, but nowadays it's conceivable that people of the near future will never see an unaltered digital photo ever again.) Our cameraphones have AI now to be always adjusting and reframing and tinting all our images before giving them to you. Every frame of every movie is color timed and digitally cleaned and fully processed even if there isn't a CGI creature in it. Every selfie is a CG creation of what the AI thinks we think we should look like. We're not capturing reality anymore, we're capturing hyperreality.

So no, The Last of Us Part II isn't "photorealistic" in technical terms (and we'll keep having this conversation for several gens to come about, "OK, how about now, is this photorealistic?",)... but it looks a lot like everything else we look at for entertainment.

There are very few games that attempt photorealistic graphics. Most games are heavily stylized, including The Last of Us: Part II.

Eh, both you and Chief holding ground on the understanding of the definition of "photorealism" as a hard-line term as something to be achieved, and I don't think that isn't helping either one of you. It's not a goal; it's an aspiration. There's no percentage of completion of photorealism to reach. It's something creators are always working towards by emulating more aspects of nature, of physics, and of human sensory systems. Renaissance painters were striving for photorealism before the photo was invented. If we're going to refuse to use the term "photorealistic" until we have enough processing power to create game images as truly unbiased renders in realtime, fine, but then we really don't need the term because we ain't getting there.

Also, I wouldn't say "photorealistic" means it has no style or augmentation. Even realistic films (and many documentaries) inject directorial touches into the images, only looking realistic in the moment because little tips your eye to the lie unless you are trained to spot the key and fill of light sources (much less the film stock choices and the color timing passes and all that fun stuff. Some paintings are produced in a way to be "photorealistic", yet obviously, they are not photos. (Photographs themselves have countless ways of capturing a subject in front of a lens that could wildly alter the naturalness of the resulting image.) At some point, it's all an artist's choice.

...Either way, whatever conclusion you two are drawing towards, I don't think this thread was ever meant to debate the question of, "Are games photorealistic now?" This only ever was a thread about games & demos which look real good and also games & demos which should look way better with the power these consoles now possess.

 

[alloush]

I have no faith in Sony. I remember how they advertised Miles for 6 months. I was there on era cutting gifs of what were clearly fake or souped up cutscenes. PS4 games already look great in cutscrenes. Jstevenson was there and did not say if they were last gen or not.

When I called him out, he got all mad, but whatever. They are saying this is PS5 only. Fine, lets see it. Just look at the new NFS footage. Its next gen only and looks worse than NFS 2015. Look at Dead Space. Next gen only. Looks worse than Callisto Protocol. A Last gen game.

Insomniac might end up making it look better than Miles but as long as they are chasing that native 4k 30-50 fps target, they wont get the next gen upgrade we have come to expect from Matrix and the Unity demos. Just not gonna happen. We already saw it with Ratchet. It's open world areas look worse than HFW a last gen game.

Yeah I hear you. But considering how beautiful Miles Morales looked (not photorealistic by any stretch) then SM2 which seems to be a next-gen only game made by the talented Insomniac will surely look amazing. If the game looks like the GIFs that ChiefDada posted then we are in for a treat. Let's wait and see, as you mentioned we have been stung too many times now that we don't have faith in anyone anymore lol.

 

[ChiefDada]

I know I'm practically banned from uttering a certain term so I'll just say these UE renders look like realistic photos

 

[Lethal01]

I know I'm practically banned from uttering a certain term so I'll just say these UE renders look like realistic photos

Can't wait for the day the actual games look like this all around, on ps6~7

Should be noted that the hair isn't actually done in engine, it's photoshopped in from the photo. Sadly that was the part that impressed me most so was pretty disappointing to find out.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

Can't wait for the day the actual games look like this all around, on ps6~7

Should be noted that the hair isn't actually done in engine, it's photoshopped in from the photo. Sadly that was the part that impressed me most so was pretty disappointing to find out.

Wtf. They're still finding new ways to bullshot us

 

[Lethal01]

 

[alloush]

Damn dude, that's some gorgeous stuff. We expect this level of graphical fidelity around PS6?

 

[Haggard]

Damn dude, that's some gorgeous stuff. We expect this level of graphical fidelity around PS6?

That is just very dense but mostly static geometry. That should be doable with Nanite on current gen consoles since it now supports foliage, too.
Unless they have massively improved their generators however creating such a scene is a real chore which is why you won`t see that kind of stuff in a lot of games or at all.

 

[alloush]

That is just very dense but mostly static geometry. That should be doable with Nanite on current gen consoles since it now supports foliage, too.
Unless they have refined their generators however creating such a scene is a real chore which is why you won`t see that kind of stuff in a lot of games or at all.

That makes sense. I reckon we will see this level of fidelity in the big-budgeted AAA games made my talented studios.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I know I'm practically banned from uttering a certain term so I'll just say these UE renders look like realistic photos

Let me say it: this look hyper photorealistic. Clearly the intent was to mimic real life as closely as possible.

Spoiler

Now compare it to this heavily stylized character model. Gorgeous graphics... But clearly making it look real life like was not the priority.

 

[ZehDon]

I know I'm practically banned from uttering a certain term so I'll just say these UE renders look like realistic photos

Ok, that's pretty impressive. There's obviously a little bit to go, namely in the micro-detailing, but we're getting scary close now.

 

[timothet]

I know I'm practically banned from uttering a certain term so I'll just say these UE renders look like realistic photos

It's important to say that hair and background is composited from reference into UE render. So it's not 100% UE render.

 

[TheRedRiders]

A quick question.

I have seen people use terms like PBR and MBR when talking about next-gen graphics and past/current gen. They stand for physical and material based rendering. I have no clue what these mean and I can’t seem to find a clear answer on Google.

Can anyone answer this for me please. Thank you in advance.

 

[H . R . 2]

A quick question.

I have seen people use terms like PBR and MBR when talking about next-gen graphics and past/current gen. They stand for physical and material based rendering. I have no clue what these mean and I can’t seem to find a clear answer on Google.

Can anyone answer this for me please. Thank you in advance.

could it be another term for photogrammetry?

 

[timothet]

A quick question.

I have seen people use terms like PBR and MBR when talking about next-gen graphics and past/current gen. They stand for physical and material based rendering. I have no clue what these mean and I can’t seem to find a clear answer on Google.

Can anyone answer this for me please. Thank you in advance.

https://googlethatforyou.com?q=pbr computer graphics

 

[TheRedRiders]

https://googlethatforyou.com?q=pbr computer graphics

I was looking for a more contextual definition, hence why I asked on here.

 

[GymWolf]

A quick question.

I have seen people use terms like PBR and MBR when talking about next-gen graphics and past/current gen. They stand for physical and material based rendering. I have no clue what these mean and I can’t seem to find a clear answer on Google.

Can anyone answer this for me please. Thank you in advance.

It should be a tech that try to simulate how different materials look under the light, in reality wood, metal etc. React differently when being lit.

 

[ChiefDada]

GoW Ragnarok is really underrated in graphics department.

 

[TheRedRiders]

GoW Ragnarok is really underrated in graphics department.

Me and brother were in complete awe when we got to this part of the game.

The landscapes, the environment, foliage and lighting were so gorgeous.

Imagine what they can pull of on next-gen hardware with next-gen rendering systems.

 

[JimRyanGOAT]

Games look really good this gen when your standing still (Photomode)

The moment you start moving you notice all the shortcoming in areas like lighting, draw distance, animations, etc etc

 

[alabtrosMyster]

What looks photorealistic to me:

What looks photorealistic to you:

And that's perfectly cool.

Seriously, the colours are way off for a sunny day on the first picture, if you want to talk colour r accuracy you should not use this image.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Seriously, the colours are way off for a sunny day on the first picture, if you want to talk colour r accuracy you should not use this image.

Way off? When was the last time you've been outside on a sunny day in Eastern Europe?

 

[alloush]

What do you guys think of The Witcher 3 next-gen update?

 

[TheRedRiders]

What do you guys think of The Witcher 3 next-gen update?

In the context of "next-gen", it's pretty average. However it's still a gorgeous game, and this update should make it a more pleasent experience, especially for us PS5 players who can now enjoy it 60 FPS.

Back to next-gen, I think how we define this term is important and it may change from person to person. Higher resolution textures, reworked geometry and plugging in RT are simply not enough to constitute "next=gen" for me. It's the case with most games, even native next-gen games seem like PS4 games which have had their graphics dialled really high.

As for what we can call "next-gen". In my opinion a next-gen title will have to have things like micro-polygon rendering systems, like what we're seeing with Nanite. dynamic global illumination systems. Making use of next-gen features like new enemy and world/NPC variety and behaviours with next-gen AI. Next-gen physics systems, making environments react more accurately to input and so much more. Mesh/Primitive Shaders and so much more.

But at the end of the day, regardless of technologies and buzzwords, the visuals will do the talking.

 

[It's all in the wrist]

In the context of "next-gen", it's pretty average. However it's still a gorgeous game, and this update should make it a more pleasent experience, especially for us PS5 players who can now enjoy it 60 FPS.

Back to next-gen, I think how we define this term is important and it may change from person to person. Higher resolution textures, reworked geometry and plugging in RT are simply not enough to constitute "next=gen" for me. It's the case with most games, even native next-gen games seem like PS4 games which have had their graphics dialled really high.

As for what we can call "next-gen". In my opinion a next-gen title will have to have things like micro-polygon rendering systems, like what we're seeing with Nanite. dynamic global illumination systems. Making use of next-gen features like new enemy and world/NPC variety and behaviours with next-gen AI. Next-gen physics systems, making environments react more accurately to input and so much more. Mesh/Primitive Shaders and so much more.

But at the end of the day, regardless of technologies and buzzwords, the visuals will do the talking.

It's the Witcher 3 with some next gen features.