QuicheFontaine
Member
Well that's just it: there isn't a 'people of Europe'. Not really.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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Well that's just it: there isn't a 'people of Europe'. Not really.
Is it really a meltdown when he's just having it out with the Greek Anal Cyst. I saw you posting his tweets early, how do you stomach that sorry fuck?
This is overall a good sign.
They've made a significant effort to say that Greece wouldn't get a "haircut," but that other solutions (reprofiling, maturity extension) are possible that would have the same practical effect as a haircut. So they're leaving doors open for a solution. They just have to navigate some dangerous waters in finding a way to give Greece relief without antagonizing their own constituencies.
That should be your telltale sign that this is much more about sovereignty than it is about economics.
At least, for Europe. For Greece it's about both!
Just saw this. What is wrong with him? Is he a Syriza supporter or why is he having a meldown?
Unknown Soldier
Member
Honestly it seems like going back to drachmas would be the best for both Greece and the Eurozone.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
It was done when we couldn't come up with a centralized fiscal EU authority. That was what sealed the deal.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Exactly the same argument applies. You think Merkel was going to go the German government and say "well, Greece has agreed to an offer we made 2 days ago in which we get all of our money back. Shall we say no?". That's fucking stupid. Who doesn't accept an offer where they get all their money back because 2 days have passed? It would have passed national parliaments. Now, a haircut deal, sure, that might not pass national parliaments, because then German taxpayers foot the bill, but that wasn't the basis of the referendum offer.
ClosingADoor
Member
Problem with this is Greece doesn't even propose its own offers in time. It's plain incompetence by their government the last days. Or their plan all along was a default and they think this is the best way to go about it to keep support of their people.
Theonik
Member
It's not about what you have. It's about what you owe.
CyclopsRock
Member
I know, that's exactly why I used it as an example - my point was that when a profit margin is sufficiently high, competition will force the price of a product down. SMS is a good example because it cost so little for them to provide, and thus we've seen the price come hurtling down to almost nothing. I used this to point out how a mostly-robotic workforce (attractive to "neo-liberals" as it's very cheap compared to human labour) then allows a much low potential price for the actual product, assuming that company does not have a monopoly on the market.
No, the countries that supposedly are now taking a very moral stance, like Estonia and Slovakia are not breaking that rule. Guess what, there is not one single statement of any official from any of the smaller countries against the fact that a rule that was imposed by Germany is not respected by Germany. That's the EU democracy. Let's not pretend now that those will protest if Germany would propose a new deal for Greece. They are making bold statements because this goes well for their local popularity, but they wouldn't stop a deal if this was the case.
I'm not really sure what your point is here. Sure, other countries have democratic constituencies to deal with. I guess this is the new Euro talking point? If most of the countries in the euro would rather let the euro zone collapse than keep it together, then it's probably going to collapse. I can't argue with that!
But calling Grexit "inevitable" is still incorrect, because it's pretty obvious how to prevent it.
One problem is that Europe does not have the tools to enforce things that, for instance, a federal nation could enforce for on of its economically challenged states. Like taxation and guaranteed minimum social security that actually works. All Europe can actively do, aside from lending money under conditions it defines, is to hope that one Greek government finally gets its shit together and repairs the Greek administration.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
There's no offer they can make given the insistence of other EU nations on going via the ESM. The best they can do is turn up at the meetings, say "let us use the ECB", and get told "no". What offer would you have them make that goes via the ESM and doesn't destroy their economy?
SymbiantXenos
Member
Follow a few twittee accounts on this natter. Those just were to hand at the time.
Calling someone a nazi collaborator when your part of a main uk tv channel is going a little too far in my opinion.
He appears to be calling out people as Nazi Collabarators?!?
I know they put views not of Channel 4 but I'd imagine he's getting called into the boss AM.
The problem is Greece will never implement a plan that they recently voted no to so how can the governments putting in the money trust them to make the necessary reforms?!
I personally believe Tiparis & Co actually thought they'd be a yes vote and so ducked the responsibility by having the referendum and now it's too late.
I personally believe Tiparis & Co actually thought they'd be a yes vote and so ducked the responsibility by having the referendum and now it's too late.
You thought Tsipras held the referendum, campaigned for No, and said he'd resign if the vote was Yes as part of a dastardly attempt to get himself fired?
This seems...implausible.
Unknown Soldier
Member
It's not about what you have. It's about what your owe.
If you owe your bank a hundred pounds, you have a problem. But if you owe a million, it has.
-John Maynard Keynes
ClosingADoor
Member
Then they shouldn't have their people saying nonsense like they'll have a proposal in 24 hours after the referendum.
I guess now something has been submitted over the last few minutes. Lets see if its a start.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That cunning Tsipras, trying to make sure he gets fired for doing what he wanted to do.
Coriolanus
Banned
Evidently. See last page.
Yerp. If his bit about upsum and backroom stuff is real, ye gods. A public dressing down of merkel by bams? Ain't no fucking way that is happening.
Mason does sympathize with syriza (and especially Yanis) quite a bit tho, so grain of salt is recommended.
Must say tho.... everything that's happened today? Fits to a T with the telegraph's profile of the new FinMin.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
You don't repair and reconstruct your administration without fucking money to do so. Those things take time and money.
Also half Europe needs to fix their administrations and you don't see Germany down their necks asking for it...
europe as an entity doesn't just get to say "well our hands are tied"
they specifically set up the form and function of the EU and the eurozone. if they can't do anything about this fuckup then clearly they did an incredibly bad job at the outset and it's coming back to bite them in the ass.
if all of its national governments are so beholden to constituencies that are so very against helping each other out then why the hell are they a union in the first place?
Again, if any program not under the ESM would be a better solution, I don't see why it shouldn't at least be proposed by the Greek government. Would be a great way to blame everyone else once more if the EZ ends up rejecting it. But they did not sent a non-ESM proposal, they never even publicly discussed any other non-ESM ways of setting up a long-term solution (nor to my knowledge did anyone else in the media, be it journalists, experts, politicians).
It's either because there is no other option or because conspiracy.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=719754
We've already been through this one at least twice already in this thread. At this point I'm pretty convinced you're just posting for the sake of posting.
I didn't say "everybody" is breaking that rule. To be precise:
(Source: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/docume...P-EN.pdf/765eba70-6a88-4771-8af7-48f6665e3c67)
That's way to many to seriously enforce the rule through penalties. AFAIK, there aren't even any real penalties defined. As I said, when everybody is a criminal, nobody wants to call the police.
PdotMichael
Banned
Even the "could" is wrong then or he is just dumb. Did he really think that they would accept anything after a little small talk?
PJV3
Member
A country is going belly up and it can be avoided, I'm dumbstruck by it.
The people in Europe should be better than this, we're making the tea party look sensible.
Coriolanus
Banned
You asking if a guy that stated for months that the solution to the euro crisis would be, essentially, love and peace for greater true utopic european union, truly believed that a quick solution could be found after a massive display of popular support? Instead of risking scrapping the whole deal?
Why yes, he most likely did.
CyclopsRock
Member
Really, though? I mean, is there any positive version of the future in which you can see the Greek Economy and the German Economy happilly sharing the same central bank and same currency, given their wildly different needs when it comes to fiscal policy? Sure, you can avoid Greece going "belly up" in the short term, but does anyone in this thread genuinely think that it's in Greece's best interests in the medium to long term to stay in the Euro?
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
The ELA is effectively a short-term version of what could be an ECB-programme - effectively ELA in perpetuity, or at least until the Greek economy recovers. Draghi has covered a few times why he won't do it (e.g., in March here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/26/us-ecb-draghi-greece-idUSKBN0MM22820150326) - note especially that these are not legal restrictions on doing it just opinions as to why he wouldn't currently do it. ECB options *were* discussed months ago but dropped because it wasn't politically feasible then - presumably because creditors thought Greece would accept any offer and therefore weren't willing to accept what was tantamount to a currency devaluation given that would reduce the eventual return on their investment. Following the referendum, it should have been discussed again - especially as Varoufakis has displayed key interest in the programme (e.g., here: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/01/15/on-the-ecbs-great-contradiction-and-how-it-helps-greece/). The fact it hasn't is because Germany has made clear in repeated public statement after public statement they expect things to go through the ESM - probably because that requires assent from national parliaments and thus gives e.g. Merkel (plus other sceptical heads of state) greater leverage.
It's not a conspiracy, it's a an open decision. Nobody is hiding it.
Theonik
Member
It depends on if the Euro can reform in the meanwhile.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Given these ideas, what you're saying is that the EU should kick half of their countries.
I don't understand what's not to understand about the referendum. Tsipras was elected to not accept an austerity plan like it was in the past 5 years, but he didn't have the backing of more than 50% of the voting population for his stance, so it was risky to take a radical stance in the negotiation and default Greece. The other parties would have immediately taken advantage of the situation. So he set up a referendum to see clearly what the people prefer: possible default or more austerity. If the people would have voted for more austerity it would have meant that Tsipras mandate from the election was over and he would have stepped down. But a big majority voted against austerity plan (even with the default being a very possible outcome). So his mandate has even more strength now. And the other parties were forced to rally behind it. Backing down from this mandate now will be suicidal for Tsipras and would possible destabilize the country even more. Or could mean that another party (possible Golden Dawn) will pick up the war flag.
And again, defaulting might be actually the best thing that can happen to Greece out of this situation.
And Portugal probably needs to prepare itself to be Holy Graal of the next German elections.
And again, defaulting might be actually the best thing that can happen to Greece out of this situation.
And Portugal probably needs to prepare itself to be Holy Graal of the next German elections.
ClosingADoor
Member
And stuff like that just shows incompetence again. It's easy to blame the media, but how about having your communications in order and actually be clear and on time with proposals and such.
Honestly, I hope for a partial debt cut, postponing interest payments and giving Greece time to get things in order. But from all the things going wrong and being unclear, you can't fault people for not trusting their government in getting things in order and rebuilding their economy. I also can't blame the people of other Euro nations for not supporting those debt cuts, since they sure as hell aren't getting any and also lost a lot of jobs and wages over the last years.
And we are all posting for the sake of posting. Don't see much wrong with that.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No, they "could" have been, if key European parliaments had dropped the stupid notion that deals have to go via the ESM. Varoufakis isn't responsible for the fact that other European nations aren't sufficiently committed to the European ideal. Greece clearly is, or they'd have defaulted in 2010 when it would have been easiest.
Technically, what he's saying is that half of the countries in the euro should leave. Which is unfortunately true! Why stick around and be colonized?
We bailed out banks, which are just companies 'because they cannot be allowed to fail'. Yet Greece can be allowed to fail?
PdotMichael
Banned
He also takes responsibilty that Greece couldn't provide a proposal or written concept today.
At least have the dignity of providing a half-assed proposal. Or better make a clear statement that they rather want a default than a repackaged deal.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You cannot have a proposal in on time if there is no proposal you can feasibly make. You cannot have your communications fully clear if there is a huge incentive by a number of other actors to have your statements muddied as much as possible.
The people of other European nations have a choice between a haircut, in which they only get some money back, and a default, in which they get no money back. Pretending there is a third option (Greece rolls over and accepts the fact its economy is going to pillaged and its youth crushed to pay back some hopeless debt mountain it will never reach) is never going to happen unless Tsipras is more of a coward than he has appeared so far.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You are Tsipras. You have been told you must go via the ESM. You cannot accept a proposal worse than the one your people rejected by referendum.
What do you propose? Or alternatively: do you even propose at all, or do you use some of the small time remaining to hope that other countries will come to their senses and allow direct ECB intervention?
CyclopsRock
Member
Nope, the problem is with the Eurozone, not the EU. And Pidgeon is right, you could just kick out half but, really, even that's just "less bad" - the German and French economies are far more similar than the German and Greek economies, but they're still different and there will - are - times when they, too, need different fiscal policies. It's practically the most important tool a government has when it comes to their impact on their economy, along with their budgetted public spending, and they've ceded control of it to an entity which doesn't necessarily have its interest at heart (or, at the very best, has its interests along with the interests of nearly 20 other countries at heart too).
Unknown Soldier
Member
The problem with the Euro is that a currency union requires a strong political union. The United States is a strong political union. The European Union is not. Half the countries in the Euro shouldn't be in the Euro in the first place and would have been economically better off retaining their sovereign currencies.
And I'm not talking about economically weak vs. strong like the Germans seem to think. The UK are one of the strongest economies in Europe and they refused to let go of the pound and are now watching the drama on the Continent. Imagine if the UK had joined the Euro, they are so much better off with the pound.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Gordon Brown #bestPM, amirite Cyclops?
Coriolanus
Banned
While i understand that that kinda reasoning is A Thing That Exists, to me it is so akin to people shitting on the idea of raising the minimum wage because "gee goly, then i'll only be making x above the minimum wage, so fuck those entitled dicks", that i can't help but abhor it.
Dudes, like. Duuuudes. If they get a haircut, it becomes that much easier for you to argue for concessions too. Help a bro out and get helped right back.
CyclopsRock
Member
Hey, you can thank John Major for that. The only extent to which Brown helped was in his desire to do literally everything he could to undermine Blair, and thus kept us out. Who knows how many more countries we'd have bombed without his heroic disregard for his leader's wishes.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I firmly believe there's no sense of an EU without the Eurozone, basically a true economic union was the endgame of the whole political project. Otherwise it will be something in which we send our ministers for holidays every few weeks for meaningless meetings...like right now. Oh, and no need for passports...that's cool I guess.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Hollande's press statement a lot more neutral than Merkel's. Talks about a pre-meeting on Saturday, so Greece might actually still have a shot at staying in the Euro yet.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Merkel and co. are all posturing for an "ain't even mad" Grexit, they want to appear though to their electorate, and scare other countries that will face the same outcome.
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