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[Theonik]

We will delete all the credits the banks have nothing to back with, and we will do so fabulously.

Is there enough cash in Greek banks to break the necessary number of plates?

If we ignore contracts, we might as well go back to 'might makes right' politics. Why should anyone commit to mutual cooperation if contracts aren't worth their paper?

I am of course joking. Worry not.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It is almost like demanding a completely new deal requires more political buy-in than an extension of an existing one, something which Tsipiras made impossible with his referendum.

The terms of the extension of the existing offer were such that Greece should never have accepted it. There is no possible way that a default could be worse than the consequences of having taken those terms. The IMF knows this. The ECB knows this. Merkel knows this. If the German solution is therefore to make the new deal have even worse terms, they are not serious about keeping Greece in the Euro.

Do you dispute any of these statements?

 

[ElTorro]

You realize she has half her party revolting and a lot of voters who are against her Euro politics right? You guys need to stop acting like Greek people are the only ones that have the right to hear their voices heard.

Also this. If you read today's comments by many CDU/CSU members and some SPD members, you have to wonder if the German parliament would even give clearance to a weak deal.

Tsipras has made life for his allies in Germany much more difficult over the last weeks.

 

[PdotMichael]

The terms of the extension of the existing offer were such that Greece should never have accepted it. There is no possible way that a default could be worse than the consequences of having taken those terms. The IMF knows this. The ECB knows this. Merkel knows this. If the German solution is therefore to make the new deal have even worse terms, they are not serious about keeping Greece in the Euro.

Do you dispute any of these statements?

Even if we just accept this as fact. Then you can still blame Tsipras for not having the balls of making it to the topic of the referendum or just make some clear statement about it.

He is wasting the time and money of the Eurostates and, which is way more important, the time and money of his own people.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

doubtful. Germany isn't even one of the hardliner's that are strictly against the Greek's plans.

There were several plans, for some reasons Greece and EU fucked up most plans until there was just one left and Greece said "naaaaah."

It was also expected that it is harder to get a total new plan for a 2-year time periode than extending an already existing plan for 4 more months. Pretty much everyone has mentioned this, dunno why this feels like "a new thing" now?

As I said, Juncker was talking about several plans, deals for the next months, not full 2 year plans, just a few hours before. So definetly other options were possible.

His fault, for sure.

He should standing side by side with Merkel and controlling her destructive nature, not being a mere lackey.

 

[le-seb]

Spinless bastard...

His fault, for sure.
There's so much he can do when there are 17 more countries to convince and half the French think this game lasted long enough and call for a Grexit.

 

[Joni]

The terms of the extension of the existing offer were such that Greece should never have accepted it.

Greece had multiple months to negotiate better terms while they were in better condition, when they had something to do and they could negotiate.

There is no possible way that a default could be worse than the consequences of having taken those terms. The IMF knows this. The ECB knows this. Merkel knows this. If the German solution is therefore to make the new deal have even worse terms, they are not serious about keeping Greece in the Euro.

They are not trying to keep Greece in the Euro at all costs. There is no way a democracy can approve an agreement where the majority of members is against it. It is not Greece versus banker without representation. It is Greece versus 18 other economies where they have done their best to insult and anger most of those 18 considering they have only two friends left.

 

[Xando]

His fault, for sure.

Everyone get's blamed as long as he isn't named Tsipras.

 

[chadskin]

As I said, Juncker was talking about several plans, deals for the next months, not full 2 year plans, just a few hours before. So definetly other options were possible.

Hollande said any short- to mid-term aid requires a long-term solution first.

 

[vinnygambini]

You realize she has half her party revolting and a lot of voters who are against her Euro politics right? You guys need to stop acting like Greek people are the only ones that have the right to hear their voices heard.

Seriously.

The witch hunt of Merkel/Germany needs to stop.

 

[ElTorro]

This reminds me of what happened in Australia, something I saw yesterday, when they put strict controls on guns in the 96. It was the conservatives the ones that took the iniciative and the ones who took a political suicide for the greater good.

You are operating under the assumption that Germany sees keeping Greece in the Euro under all costs as a greater good worth ignoring the will of the majority of its own people. That's not how Germany sees it, especially in recent days. Most people are of the opinion that Europe (and especially Germany) can ride out the political and economic implications of a Grexit perfectly well.

I am of course joking. Worry not.

I got that. ;-) But I also have the impression that many others in this thread don't really appreciate the importance of rules and contracts.

 

[oti]

I'm done. I refuse to believe the Greek government will find a solution to this.

Merkel didn't say anything yesterday and traveled to Paris in order to reassure France won't leave her sight. She obviously succeeded. Greece will default, Merkel will keep her face in Germany.
The smaller countries such as Finland and Slovakia don't want to help Greece out, understandably so.

Well, this is it. This must be it. And it will be for the better eventually after some very hard years for Greece.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You are operating under the assumption that Germany sees keeping Greece in the Euro under all costs as a greater good worth ignoring the will of the majority of its own people. That's not how Germany sees it, especially in recent days. Most people are of the opinion that Europe (and especially Germany) can ride out the political and economic implications of a Grexit perfectly well.

Australian goverment ignored the will of their people too, and now they are much better.

And of course Germany will be fine, fuck the south, right? And the political implications for the EU and the Euro will be devastating, but Germany will be fine, that's all that matters.

 

[EloKa]

The terms of the extension of the existing offer were such that Greece should never have accepted it. There is no possible way that a default could be worse than the consequences of having taken those terms. The IMF knows this. The ECB knows this. Merkel knows this. If the German solution is therefore to make the new deal have even worse terms, they are not serious about keeping Greece in the Euro.

Do you dispute any of these statements?

Yeah.

the IMF is political absolutely neutral and their only goal (by law) is to keep the financial system running when some country is in danger.

You might want to ask other countries whether they have accepted the help packages to regulate their balance. You should start with Estonia which had even tougher programms than Greece if the whole EU is just mean or if they were that unbalanced that they had to undergo those measures (which - surprisingly helped)

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Even if we just accept this as fact. Then you can still blame Tsipras for not having the balls of making it to the topic of the referendum or just make some clear statement about it. He is wasting the time and money of the Eurostates and, which is way more important, the time and money of his own people.

Prior to the referendum, creditors believed that Greece would accept literally any offer to stay in the Eurozone. Because of this, they gave Greece very bad offers - worse than the consequences of defaulting. If the creditors know Greece will not accept any offer, they have a choice between giving Greece a better offer (a haircut) which involves creditors getting back some but not all money, and the same offer or a worse offer which involves creditors getting back no money (a default). Therefore, Tsipras wanted to demonstrate Greece would not accept any offer. He therefore called a referendum on whether Greece would accept the an offer. They rejected it, demonstrating to creditors that they need to give a better offer. If Tsipras had not held a referendum, then creditors would have continued to give the same offer that they always had done, because they would have continued to believe Greece would never dare default.

Do you dispute any of these statements (particularly the last one)?

EDIT: EloKa, you haven't actually said which one of those statements you disagree with, you've just repeated your vague argument from earlier. As it is, I'll tell you directly which one of your statements I disagree with: Estonia has suffered as a result of austerity policies and would have recovered faster and more smoothly if it had abandoned them. I'll also point out your statement is not a complete argument. Estonia is a single example of a Eurozone country, and you would be cherry-picking data even if you were correct (which you are not). Many other Eurozone countries stand as strong examples of austerity programmes that failed. In fact, the biggest example is the country we are presently talking about, Greece, which has run larger primary surpluses than Estonia.

 

[oti]

And saying it was all just Germany's or all just Greece's fault is misguided and wrong.

 

[ElTorro]

And of course Germany will be fine, fuck the south, right? And the political implications for the EU and the Euro will be devastating, but Germany will be fine, that's all that matters.

That's not just Germany's opinion. As we have read many times, virtually all 18 Eurozone states have come to the same opinion over the last weeks and days. As I said, Tsipras has made life for his allies in other states much more difficult with his shenanigans.

 

[Joni]

Do you dispute any of these statements (particularly the last one)?

Do you dispute the fact that holding a referendum on an extension of a program after that program has ended is a bad idea?

That's not just Germany's opinion. As we have read many times, virtually all 18 Eurozone states have come to the same opinion over the last weeks and days. As I said, Tsipras has made life for his allies in other states much more difficult with his shenanigans.

With especially the southern and the poorer countries supporting the 'German position'. It is the rich, big 'Western' France that is lenient.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

And saying it was all just Germany's or all just Greece's fault is misguided and wrong.

I'm not faulting Germany at 100%, but this was the moment for Merkel to stand up and take a political blow if necessary to save the situation. She didn't and what she's asking to the Greek people is almost inmoral, redoubling in the austerity that is killing the country.

How we reached until this point it dosn't matter, what you do know is what makes the difference.

That's not just Germany's opinion. As we have read many times, virtually all 18 Eurozone states have come to the same opinion over the last weeks and days. As I said, Tsipras has made life for his allies in other states much more difficult with his shenanigans.

Is all political, I'd say there's a lot of people in these countries who support greece, but the goverments (specially the south) don't want to take a political blow even if it could hurt badly their countries. They are at fault too, some of them are going to lose anyway, like Spain PP.

 

[ElTorro]

Can somebody (maybe Crab) point me to these ESM alternatives? I am not sure what it meant by that.

 

[aeolist]

And saying it was all just Germany's or all just Greece's fault is misguided and wrong.

yeah, obviously the greek economy was mismanaged for a very long time, but everyone involved is far more interested in covering their own asses than actually finding a solution to a real catastrophe

 

[pigeon]

You are operating under the assumption that Germany sees keeping Greece in the Euro under all costs as a greater good worth ignoring the will of the majority of its own people. That's not how Germany sees it, especially in recent days. Most people are of the opinion that Europe (and especially Germany) can ride out the political and economic implications of a Grexit perfectly well.

Europe will be fine without Greece in the euro/EU.

The EU/euro will probably have some pretty rough times, though. Why would anybody join them now? Why would anybody stay in them if they aren't Germany or a similarly powerful country?

It's another step backwards for European unification, and another twenty years or so for the next step forwards, probably.

 

[PdotMichael]

Prior to the referendum, creditors believed that Greece would accept literally any offer to stay in the Eurozone. Because of this, they gave Greece very bad offers - worse than the consequences of defaulting. If the creditors know Greece will not accept any offer, they have a choice between giving Greece a better offer (a haircut) which involves creditors getting back some but not all money, and the same offer or a worse offer which involves creditors getting back no money (a default). Therefore, Tsipras wanted to demonstrate Greece would not accept any offer. He therefore called a referendum on whether Greece would accept the an offer. They rejected it, demonstrating to creditors that they need to give a better offer. If Tsipras had not held a referendum, then creditors would have continued to give the same offer that they always had done, because they would have continued to believe Greece would never dare default.

Do you dispute any of these statements (particularly the last one)?

Right now Tsipras has a referendum that proves that the population don't want further austerity but various polls still show they want to stay in the EU.

A quite paradox situation. The referendum didn't help anyone.

 

[East Lake]

That's not just Germany's opinion. As we have read many times, virtually all 18 Eurozone states have come to the same opinion over the last weeks and days. As I said, Tsipras has made life for his allies in other states much more difficult with his shenanigans.

Who cares? Tsipras was a wake up call for the peddlers of delusional economics. It'd be nice if people cared more about devastating Greek unemployment.

 

[oti]

I'm not faulting Germany at 100%, but this was the moment for Merkel to stand up and take a political blow if necessary to save the situation. She didn't and what she's asking to the Greek people is almost inmoral, redoubling in the austerity that is killing the country.

How we reached until this point it dosn't matter, what you do know is what makes the difference.

Yes, yes it was. If someone was able to shut Finland's, Slovakia's etc. mouths it would be Merkel. But she has her own and Germany's interests in mind. That's what politicians do. It's not what a Union should be but that's the reality right now. At least this has now become perfectly clear.

 

[vinnygambini]

Can't be stressed enough:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the eurozone leaders had had a "serious, candid discussion" in Brussels that "reflected the seriousness of the situation at hand".

She said the leaders "obviously respect the results of the referendum" but added: "As regards the euro, we don't have the sovereignty of just one country to contend with, but of 18. Shared sovereignty, shared responsibility."

Mrs Merkel said Greece needed a new debt programme that would last several years, not a short-term fix.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33437797

Basically, it's complicated.

 

[EloKa]

I'm not faulting Germany at 100%, but this was the moment for Merkel to stand up and take a political blow if necessary to save the situation. She didn't and what she's asking to the Greek people is almost inmoral, redoubling in the austerity that is killing the country.

How we reached until this point it dosn't matter, what you do know is what makes the difference.

okay, so the austarity will be doubled in the proposal that isn't made yet by Greece? Did you see the non-existing proposal already?

Yeah everyone on earth could stand up and take a political and financial blow for greece. Theoretically.

Everything that Merkel stated was already clear since a whole week. It was said by several politicans, managers, random people. It's not like Merke had a bad day today and thought "oh, lets fuck greece because they're mean".

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Right now Tsipras has a referendum that proves that the population don't want further austerity but various polls still show they want to stay in the EU.

A quite paradox situation. The referendum didn't help anyone.

But the referendum proved that not at any cost, like the EU would have liked it.

 

[PJV3]

yeah, obviously the greek economy was mismanaged for a very long time, but everyone involved is far more interested in covering their own asses than actually finding a solution to a real catastrophe

Yeah, we all know Greece fucked up, the people of Europe shouldn't be letting a European country crumble when it doesn't have to happen.

This is shameful politics.

 

[ElTorro]

I'm not faulting Germany at 100%, but this was the moment for Merkel to stand up and take a political blow if necessary to save the situation. She didn't and what she's asking to the Greek people is almost inmoral, redoubling in the austerity that is killing the country.

You are attributing too much power to Merkel. She does not have that power. She already took a blow when she campaigned strongly for helping Greece over the last years. One of her statements, that bailouts for Greece are 'without alternative', even spawned a new anti-Euro party literally called 'Alternative for Germany', which right from the start took many voters away from Merkel's party and is now sitting in many German state parliaments.

Right now, Merkel would have an even harder job to get a majority in the German parliament for further helps, especially if Greek doesn't provide a proposal that meets expectations. All proposals that include a straight debt relief, kicking out the IMF, or very weak conditions, will just not pass the parliament anymore with certainty.

And that's just Germany, one of 18 countries that are playing the same game within their democratic system.

 

[Theonik]

Shared responsibility lol

Edit: I mean that's a odd thing to say considering the punitive approach taken for countries with debt so far.

 

[oti]

Do not be fooled, the old concept of Europe died today. But it may make room for a new and better Europe, some day. Until then, difficult times ahead. Especially for Greece.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Right now Tsipras has a referendum that proves that the population don't want further austerity but various polls still show they want to stay in the EU.

A quite paradox situation. The referendum didn't help anyone.

It's not a paradox at all. If you ask "would you like to stay in the Euro?", people will say yes. If you ask "would you like to stay in the Euro if it means accepting a 25% fall in GDP and youth unemployment over 60%?", people probably answer no. If you ask me "would you like a chocolate bar?", I will say yes. If you say "well, I offered to give you a chocolate bar if you let me cut your leg off, and then you didn't take it, what kind of paradox do we have here?", then frankly you are lacking in basic common sense and understanding of the fact wants are conditional.

 

[PdotMichael]

Yes, yes it was. If someone was able to shut Finland's, Slovakia's etc. mouths it would be Merkel. But she has her own and Germany's interests in mind. That's what politicians do. It's not what a Union should be but that's the reality right now. At least this has now become perfectly clear.

I love it when the the concept of democracy should be ignored if it doesn't help the own interests anymore.

And sadly (or for good reasons) Merkel isn't the dictator of the EU.

 

[Coriolanus]

Y'all looking at this the wrong way.

This is masterplanning on both sides.

Tsipras doesn't want to take a shit deal, both because a) it would be a shit deal and b) because it would be political suicide, probably not even managing to clear parliament. He considers grexit a better option than a shit deal/political suicide.

Merkel doesn't want to offer a proper deal, both because a) it would be political suicide and b) it would be political suicide. Also because it wouldn't clear the bundestag. She considers grexit a better option than political suicide. What applies to Germany goes for everybody that ever took (or let their party take) advantage of lazy greek rethoric, obv.

Thus we come to an impasse where Greece will refuse any deal that won't have debt relief from moment zero, since it is fucking delusional, and Germany will refuse any deal that has, because fuck trusting those syriza cunts that will probably end up having to ask for another handout again in the medium term. At which point we proceed with the god damned Grexit.

Greece gets to blame Germany.
Germany gets to blame Greece.
German voters are happy that they won't be funnelling more money to their banks via Greece. Greek voters go through hell with possibility of improvement.

Default and que sera sera.

 

[Tallshortman]

Keep in mind politicians in several countries are facing their own anti austerity movements and absolutely do not want to send the message that dragging your feet on implementing bailout agreements is a viable way to get away with not paying debts.

The eastern Europeans especially are unsympathetic given they successfully navigated much tougher auserity than Greece to get back to growth.

Merkel is far from the one pulling all the strings. Just let Greece leave seems to be the growing sentiment.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Can somebody (maybe Crab) point me to these ESM alternatives? I am not sure what it meant by that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/05/us-ecb-policy-idUSKBN0M10UX20150305

Use this programme, and just change which bonds are purchased so that they are only and solely Greece's.

 

[chadskin]

AP: BREAKING: Tsipras says Greece has submitted its proposals to the eurogroup and to the European Council.

mathieuvonrohr: Austria's Faymann: ECB sees possibilities for bridge solutions while ESM program is being negotiated (plus/minus 40 days)

mathieuvonrohr: Austria's Faymann: I hope these two days will bring what four months of negotiations didn't bring. But I can't promise it.

mathieuvonrohr: Austria's Faymann: Time plan looks very ambitious to me. But that's what we decided.

https://twitter.com/mathieuvonrohr/status/618531888819499008

 

[ElTorro]

Y'all looking at this the wrong way.

This is masterplanning on both sides.

Tsipras doesn't want to take a shit deal, both because a) it would be a shit deal and b) because it would be political suicide, probably not even managing to clear parliament. He considers grexit a better option than a shit deal/political suicide.

Merkel doesn't want to offer a proper deal, both because a) it would be political suicide and b) it would be political suicide. Also because it wouldn't clear the bundestag. She considers grexit a better option than political suicide.

Thus we come to an impasse where Greece will refuse any deal that won't have debt relief from moment zero, since it is fucking delusional, and Germany will refuse any deal that has, because fuck trusting those syriza cunts that will probably end up having to ask for another handout again in the medium term. At which point we proceed with the god damned Grexit.

Greece gets to blame Germany.
Germany gets to blame Greece.
German voters are happy that they won't be funnelling more money to their banks via Greece. Greek voters go through hell with possibility of improvement.

Default and que sera sera.

I agree. Tsipras' actions over the last weeks just do not make any sense otherwise.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's not a paradox at all. If you ask "would you like to stay in the Euro?", people will say yes. If you ask "would you like to stay in the Euro if it means accepting a 25% fall in GDP and youth unemployment over 60%?", people probably answer no. If you ask me "would you like a chocolate bar?", I will say yes. If you say "well, I offered to give you a chocolate bar if you let me cut your leg off, and then you didn't take it, what kind of paradox do we have here?", then frankly you are lacking in basic common sense and understanding of the fact wants are conditional.

Maybe they should have done their referendum with a question that actually mattered about the euro. And not done it last minute, so people can at least take some time to form an opinion.

It'll probably be a default and out of the Euro. Don't know about out of the EU, hope not.

 

[KingSnake]

Oh, come on. Merkel imposed her (Germany's) will every time she wanted or need it since the crisis. Like with the fiscal conditions that Germany itself is breaking (debt level under 60% of GDP). There is no important decision of EU or euro group in which Germany had to fight against others, except for France and UK. If Merkel would have wanted another proposal she would have gotten it. But she doesn't, because the party doesn't want it and because it will be bad for the party in the eyes of the German people. Even if it's worst thing for the EU as a construction. So, yeah, united Europe will never happen. Because every 2 or 3 or 4 years there are elections in which is more important to have on whom to put the blame to get more votes.

Greece should just default. It's the best option at this point.

 

[chadskin]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/05/us-ecb-policy-idUSKBN0M10UX20150305

Use this programme, and just change which bonds are purchased so that they are only and solely Greece's.

The Greek government sent a proposal for a new 2-year deal under the ESM on June 30: http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...ear-proposal-to-european-stability-mechanism/

Ample amount of time since then to present a different, better solution not under the ESM. Has not happened.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Do you dispute the fact that holding a referendum on an extension of a program after that program has ended is a bad idea?

The fact the offer had ended was largely irrelevant. Suppose Greece had voted "yes". Do you really think any creditors would have gone "gee, whizz, we were willing to allow you to have this offer 2 days ago, in which your country is absolutely devastated and we get all of our money back because there is no haircut involved, but now that 2 days have passed, we are, for no apparent reason, not going to let you have it because actually we don't want you to pay the money you owe us"? Madness.

 

[Chezzymann]

Its crazy how a country that has a smaller economy than Houston Texas is having such a massive impact

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Channel 4s (uk) Paul Mason having a melt down on twitter.

 

[Syriel]

House prices did take a downturn too, after the house estate bubble burst.
Unfortunately investing in housing does not yield any productivity in the long run. Houses just stay there costing money.
You have to take into consideration that plot prices have dropped as well.

Eg one colleague said they had bought a plot for 40.000 Euro and it had devalued to 15.000 Euro. At that time some buyers from Germany were interested into buying, but the owners refused. This would be practically a giveaway!

Even the house construction business has dwindled.

But this did yield its results. Where Greece is cheap compared to other countries are rents. A considerable amount of Greeks own usually more than one apartments, a lot of which are empty and unused, so they look for ways to get profit. Though sometimes renting may prove more costly in the long run, since the owner has to pay extra to repair any damages.

Students and those seeking work elsewhere can find cheap flats or apartments for 150-250 Euros. In countries like Italy, Germany or UK those would cost 600-1000 Euro. Though situation got so much worse that a lot of students prefer to stay with their families, choosing a nearby university, instead of venturing to a distant region.

Rent in islands though is more expensive than in continental Greece.

Devaluation of assets is a risk that you take when investing. It wouldn't be a giveaway. It would simply be a matter of the buyers spending more than the property was worth and the new buyers offering something more in line with the actual value.

As far as people with more than one home, if you own multiple properties you are certainly not poor. By most of the world's standards, if you can own more than one house, you're very well off.

If what you're saying is true, then it is no surprise that some of the poorer countries in the EU are against just pouring more money into Greece. How do you sell that to the population?

It's funny that while everyone attacks Greece, no one is saying anything about USA's enormous debt/budget deficit. Imagine if China (USA's biggest creditor) tried to impose austerity on USA, just because "Americans have been living beyond their means for decades". That could potentially ignite WW3.

Then again USA is a sovereign country with its own currency and they can print as many dollars as they want. Greece lost half of its sovereignty when they joined the Eurozone.

There are only 2 possible solutions: they either lose their remaining sovereignty in favour of a supranational government (United States of Europe) or they claim back their entire sovereignty by printing their own currency. There's no other alternative.


Most likely. They're afraid of becoming the next scapegoats as soon as Greece leaves.


No, apparently it's just Greece that needs reforms, not the EU itself.

1) If China tried to attack the USD, China would tank its own economy.
2) As you note, the US has control over US monetary policy as it is an integrated union. Greece is just one voice among more than a dozen, all with competing interests.

The head resigned. RIP

But who gets to be our Florida?

I agree. That's what is not adding up. Interpreting the referendum as saying that people would now accepted a Grexit as alternative to austerity proposals without debt relief does not add up in the light of Tsipras' statements pre-referendum.



I can only explain the actions of the Greek government as a thinly veiled strategy to initiate a Grexit without having to take prime responsibility for it.

In general, our politician's prime concern seems to be to not be blamed for anything that happens, while what actually happens is only secondary. Interviews with Martin Schulz, for instance, are pretty telling. Is stating outright that he does not want to be blamed for being the one that caused Europe to fracture.



The vision of a united Europe has given us 70 years of unprecedented peace and collaboration, which is pretty big deal given Europe's history.

As someone outside Europe, the referendum was seen as "Yes = Austerity + Bailout, No = Greece exits eurozone."

Varoufakis did, but then resigned, probably went back to Valve to resume work on HL3.

Gabe: So how's it going?
Yanis: Ok, all these stupid politicians.
Gabe: Want to come back to Valve?
Yanis: Nah man, I'm done with hats.
Gabe: You can work on HL3!
Yanis: Screw this euro finance crap. I'm there!

As an example of this in action, see the cost of SMS's - they used to be (in the UK) 5, 10, sometimes 12p a pop. Eventually the market forced them to lower the costs to basically free now, and the market could force them to do it because the cost to them of supplying the service is so low. There's only so much inequality a market can take before it's forced to recalibrate.

Not a good example. The cost of a SMS was always near zero as it transmits on a necessary part of the message. There is no real additional cost, aside from the mechanisms to track usage and billing.

Presses must be running, but are they stamping euro or printing new drachma

Stamping euros would unleash a massive shitstorm. Don't think anyone's crazy enough to try that.

They rejected it? I thought it's still being pushed. Guaranteed incomes are being considered in Canada and Denmark now, too. I bet most of the world will have them before the United States does, even though the country actually has a system of this kind for Alaska.

Alaska isn't a "guaranteed income" as the amount can change. It's based on the state's oil reserves. State makes a profit, shares that with the residents.

It's not inevitable as long as Europe retains the power to forgive their debts, which they of course still have.

Except this isn't just a bunch of rich countries versus a poor country. This is collection of rich and poor countries that all have to approve conditions to bailout Greece. Democracy isn't just for the Greeks.

https://twitter.com/spiegelpeter/status/618485891686887424

Writing stuff down is hard.

Everyone is being a bit hasty here with hhe "no proposal! Headless chicken!", coming with a proposal right after the referendum would have killed the proposal right away. They had to meet first, it only makes sense if you understand the political implications.

That makes no sense. Greece doesn't have to show up with the proposal the creditors had in their last offer, but it should have shown up with some sort of proposal that had concrete information in it.

Not showing up with a proposal is basically saying "We have no idea what we're doing."

It is not Europe's responsibility to keep supplying proposals until there is one that Greece likes. If Greece wants to put one forth, it should do it.

They should stop wasting time discussing non-existing proposals and start organizing the delivery of medical supplies and other basic necessities to Greece.

Except medical supplies have been given to Greece, even though the hospitals and insurers are a year behind in payments. Drug companies have kept supplying even though Greece hasn't paid.

And it's not like the Greek government doesn't have money. It may be running out of Euros, but at today's prices, Greece holds $4,220,377,650 USD in gold.

I can't believe that the rest of the EU thinks having to airlift medical supplies and food to a member state is better than cutting a deal.

What a shitty collection of politicians. I can't wait for 2017.

This is a failure of the Greek government more than anything else.

That actually makes it a super easy sell at home. They just gave him a big fat target if true.

"EU dont give no fucks about greece/democracy", so on, so forth

And the other EU leaders would be saying the same to their constitutents, "Greeks dont give no fucks about EU/democracy."

That's the thing about a democracy, not everyone is going to agree and if you're talking about all the citizens of the EU, Greece is a very small part. If the majority of the EU disagrees with Greek citizens, that is not ignoring democracy, that is democracy in action.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Maybe they should have done their referendum with a question that actually mattered about the euro.

No. This is just stupid at this point. If you are saying this, you literally do not understand the bargaining process that has been going on. The point of the referendum was to demonstrate that Greece would not accept ALL OFFERS, NOT that Greece would not accept ANY OFFER (which is what a Euro referendum would be). These are hugely important differences.

 

[Joni]

The fact the offer had ended was largely irrelevant.

It isn't in this case if you don't have time to come with an alternative.

Suppose Greece had voted "yes". Do you really think any creditors would have gone "gee, whizz, we were willing to allow you to have this offer 2 days ago, in which your country is absolutely devastated and we get all of our money back because there is no haircut involved, but now that 2 days have passed, we are, for no apparent reason, not going to let you have it because actually we don't want you to pay the money you owe us"? Madness.

If they had a yes on their proposition, they would have a clear signal to give their own parlements to defend a new program. They couldn't have lengthened the old one.

 

[ElTorro]

Like with the fiscal conditions that Germany itself is breaking (debt level under 60% of GDP).

Almost everybody in the Eurozone is violating that rule. When everybody is a criminal, nobody wants to call the police. That's one problem of the Euro: there are just no real means to enforce rules important aspects.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The Greek government sent a proposal for a new 2-year deal under the ESM on June 30: http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...ear-proposal-to-european-stability-mechanism/

Ample amount of time since then to present a different, better solution not under the ESM. Has not happened.

Given that Germany has just said that an offer would have to via the ESM under even more strict conditions than before, I wonder why Greece didn't suggest an ECB offer. Gosh, such puzzle, much mystery.