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[persongr]

I'm an ignorant American and was hoping someone could help correct my understanding.

At face value, it appears that Greece is a continual beggar. It borrowed too much, cannot find a way to repay, and is seeking another 50+ billion Euro loan this week to stay afloat.

What I don't understand is the Greek government's position on staying with the Euro. There are absolutely benefits to being a part of the Eurozone, but those benefits come at a cost. And that cost, including repayment of loans to other Eurozone members, seems a requirement for participation.

It seems a more reasonable stance for Greece would be (apologizes for going 1st person here) -- "Dear EU, we're sorry for screwing up our fiscal policy and finding ourselves unable to repay these loans. We are going to leave the EU/Euro and get our financial situation sorted out. Once we are financially stable, we will come back to the EU and work to convince you all that we are now fiscally responsible and request that you let us back into the Euro club. Or, depending on how things are working out at that time, we might stick to what is working. Regardless, our hope is to one day pay back all this defaulted debt."

Again, this is a request for clarification, as I am ignorant on most of what is happening in Europe. Appreciate any response.

Those loans, even if Greece defaults and abandons Euro in favor of the Drachma will still need to be repaid. The repayment may be postponed (Greece's previous default, happened in 1932, was fully repaid only in 1999), but the debt as a whole won't magically disappear, just get a very generous and unavoidable restructure. Varoufakis was aiming to keep only the "generous" part but he failed. Now IMF and various economists support his position but most of Europe is negative.

As for the history of things, a very correct primer was posted in this thread, I think a link exists in the op.

 

[Engell]

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Putin was pulling the strings in some of this.

lol, I was also thinking this, much of this is super absurd.

exit EU, Russia "pays tons of money" to have bases in Greece

 

[petran79]

Oh... i dunno... Impartiality? Honest reporting?
In case you missed, some examples for you and others...
Also, don't forget the YES/NO being "close" according to polls...

they should and could have done this prior to the referendum while the law was breached.

Might be. But I refuse to believe anyone would be that incompetent. If you are in that position and your country is burning and the eyes of the whole world are on you, you and your colleagues better get together and start crunching and produce solutions to solve the problem. You need to stay in constant contact with your creditors and dont show up empty handed to weekly meetings, at least try to show that you're working on it. This appears very unprofessional to me. Now looking up what he did before politics, wikipedia says he was in the construction sector...

this is the problem with SYRIZA. While a lot of the young members have honest intention to improve things, their families are deep in corruption in the previous governments. You cant bite the hand that fed you in the end

 

[Theonik]

they should and could have done this prior to the referendum while the law was breached.

Then they would be accused of influencing the electoral process…
I mean the channels knew they'd not be touched because of that, and if Syriza had lost and Tsipras ousted they'd work things out with their corrupt buddies before anything went to court.

 

[Coriolanus]

they should and could have done this prior to the referendum while the law was breached.

You legit suggesting that they should've brought those guys for hearings during the lead up to the vote?

Come on, mate, do not be obtuse. You know perfectly well how that would've gone down in the international press. And they should and can do this after the law was breached. No statute of limitations is *that* short.

You're basically setting up a scenario where you'd criticize them for whatever they did.

 

[petran79]

You legit suggesting that they should've brought those guys for hearings during the lead up to the vote?

Come on, mate, do not be obtuse. You know perfectly well how that would've gone down in the international press. And they should and can do this after the law was breached. No statute of limitations is *that* short.

You're basically setting up a scenario where you'd criticize them for whatever they did.

the thing is, a lot of those reporters are not even member of the Greek Journalist Association!

 

[norinrad]

What are the chances of the Greek parliament agreeing with the new proposals?

 

[Theonik]

What are the chances of the Greek parliament agreeing with the new proposals?

Depends on what they are. After the referendum all parties excluding Golden Dawn and the Communist party have unified under their new mandate. This means that even if some Syriza factions are unhappy they can get them through parliament.

Edit: Basically they can have up to 268/300 seats.

 

[norinrad]

Depends on what they are. After the referendum all parties excluding Golden Dawn and the Communist party have unified under their new mandate.

Which is not to agree with anything the creditors propose? or am i reading too much into it. I thought the NO vote gave the prime minister the power to tell the creditors to go f**k themselves?

 

[Joni]

Greek banks will re-open on Monday at the earliest.

Now IMF and various economists support his position but most of Europe is negative.

The IMF supports the position, but is very unlikely to actually do what they say.

I thought the NO vote gave the prime minister the power to tell the creditors to go f**k themselves?

The referendum is meaningless. It only shows that Greece is still against austerity. There are still no alternatives. There is no US, China or Russia coming to the rescue with money. The Greeks can choose between Europe or defaulting outside of the EURO, something the Greeks don't want either. So the situation hasn't changed between before and after the referendum. It is the little guy hanging from an edge telling the big guys they need to pull him up his way. It doesn't give the little guy more power. It only works if the Greeks had actual leverage.

 

[Theonik]

Which is not to agree with anything the creditors propose? or am i reading too much into it. I thought the NO vote gave the prime minister the power to tell the creditors to go f**k themselves?

The No vote was to get a better deal. They are not interpreting it as telling the creditors to get fucked. It was a dumb referendum.

 

[Ted Striker]

Which is not to agree with anything the creditors propose? or am i reading too much into it. I thought the NO vote gave the prime minister the power to tell the creditors to go f**k themselves?

If Syriza and the creditors agree on a proposal, it will most certainly get the vote of approval from the parliament.

 

[Hrothgar]

Greek banks will re-open on Monday at the earliest.


The IMF supports the position, but is very unlikely to actually do what they say.

Yep this narrative about the IMF being so reasonable really has to stop. They are the most stringent of lender, and they would never apply their seemingly reasonable advices to themselves.

 

[ElTorro]

Oh... i dunno... Impartiality? Honest reporting?
In case you missed, some examples for you and others...

That would be immoral, but it is not a law. However, that organization ESIEA, is it a state-run organization or just a normal union? There is little information (in English) to be found on the Internet, and that snippet from The Guardian posted here implied rather harshly that their "disciplinary actions" are state-driven without legal backing and thus not kosher.

If it's a union, and if those journalists a part of that union, and if they infringed the statutes of that union, then sure, disciplinary steps are in order. If the media is indeed beholden to their rich owners Fox-style and biased in that direction, they deserve a lap on the hand.

But if it's some state organization, the interpretation suggested by The Guardian sounds more understandable.

 

[Theonik]

Electoral regulation requires that media offer balanced coverage and prohibits political advertising 48hrs before the ballots open iirc.

They are getting sued on those grounds.

 

[ElTorro]

Electoral regulation requires that media offer balanced coverage and prohibits political advertising 48hrs before the ballots open iirc.

They are getting sued on those grounds.

So that news item is basically full of shit? Are there other reports explicitly stating that these disciplinary measures are due to infringements of that particular law?

Our correspondent Helena Smith reports

Is the Greek media being one-sided or are bodies attached to prime minister Alexis Tsipras’ leftist-led administration deliberately trying to silence the press? In a country feeling the social spasms that come with economic free-fall, that is the question now being asked as prominent TV anchors faced investigation for allegedly favouring the ‘yes’ campaign in Sunday’s referendum.

Private channels (many owned by the oligarchal elite and other business interests) have been accused by the state-run media watchdog and the Union of Journalists and Athens daily newspapers (ESIEA) of purposefully cultivating a climate of fear and breaching electoral law in the run up to Sunday’s vote.

Nine anchors, household names in a nation now addicted to TV news broadcasts, have been told to appear before the disciplinary committee of ESIEA to answer allegations that the government-backed ‘no’ campaign was deliberately frozen out of programming. ESIEA’s governing board is now dominated by Syriza sympathisers; so too is the judiciary which has also launched an inquiry into the claims.

“In 2009 we missed the big story,” said Paschos Mendrevlis, who has been widely vilified for his commentary in the conservative daily, Kathimerini.

“We failed to see that the crisis was coming. Now journalists are asking the right questions, sometimes there is exaggeration but they are basically saying ‘look something is wrong, very wrong’ and for that they are being punished, deliberately hounded and silenced.”

The claims have lead to howls of protests that along with the economy democracy is now also at stake. Highlighting those concerns Kathimerini felt fit to write in its editorial today.

“The regime mentality that has evolved in certain centers of power is cause for grave concern and it is just a matter of time before it becomes a real threat to democracy and everything it holds truth.”

For its part, Syriza – many of whose members hail from the pro-Soviet KKE communist party – says it is being deliberated by the apparatus of a rotten political elite determined to oust the leftists from power.

 

[petran79]

That would be immoral, but it is not a law. However, that organization ESIEA, is it a state-run organization or just a normal union? There is little information (in English) to be found on the Internet, and that snippet from The Guardian posted here implied rather harshly that their "disciplinary actions" are state-driven without legal backing and thus not kosher.

If it's a union, and if those journalists a part of that union, and if they infringed the statutes of that union, then sure, disciplinary steps are in order. If the media is indeed beholden to their rich owners Fox-style and biased in that direction, they deserve a lap on the hand.

But if it's some state organization, the interpretation suggested by The Guardian sounds more understandable.

It is a journalist union that has fought for journalists rights against the previous governments. Eg police had beaten journalists too in a lot of cases. Greece stands bottom low regarding journalist freedom. Just a little better than Russia. A blogger was assasinated few years ago too. Quite a few important journalists of those private channels are not members of the union. They were ousted due to unethical code of conduct. Those channels set their own schools of journalism and hire the graduates so they can control them.

 

[Vlodril]

That would be immoral, but it is not a law. However, that organization ESIEA, is it a state-run organization or just a normal union? There is little information (in English) to be found on the Internet, and that snippet from The Guardian posted here implied rather harshly that their "disciplinary actions" are state-driven without legal backing and thus not kosher.

If it's a union, and if those journalists a part of that union, and if they infringed the statutes of that union, then sure, disciplinary steps are in order. If the media is indeed beholden to their rich owners Fox-style and biased in that direction, they deserve a lap on the hand.

But if it's some state organization, the interpretation suggested by The Guardian sounds more understandable.

esiea is the journalist's union. daily newspapers of athens. that was actually the last place i worked for in greece (6-7 years ago and not as a journalist). its not state run i think. its also probably one of the richest unions due to a tax they get for it. people had great wages there (if i remember correctly 1100 was the basic wage (without tax) and at the moment i was getting 750 without tax for 6 hours (which was also pretty fucking good).

 

[Ted Striker]

“In 2009 we missed the big story,” said Paschos Mendrevlis, who has been widely vilified for his commentary in the conservative daily, Kathimerini.

“We failed to see that the crisis was coming. Now journalists are asking the right questions, sometimes there is exaggeration but they are basically saying ‘look something is wrong, very wrong’ and for that they are being punished, deliberately hounded and silenced.”

The claims have lead to howls of protests that along with the economy democracy is now also at stake. Highlighting those concerns Kathimerini felt fit to write in its editorial today.

“The regime mentality that has evolved in certain centers of power is cause for grave concern and it is just a matter of time before it becomes a real threat to democracy and everything it holds truth.”

Wolf cries wolf.

 

[le-seb]

That would be immoral, but it is not a law.

Why not? We have one of this kind in France to ensure that all the candidates to an election have fair access to the media.

 

[Theonik]

Why not? We have one of this kind in France to ensure that all the candidates to an election have fair access to the media.

I consider it an absolute requirement to be actually able to claim to have a functioning electoral process tbh. Media can obviously affect the outcome of an election so not having legislation that holds them accountable to respecting the spirit of democracy greatly reduces the credibility of an election.

The conduct by Greek private media has been downright embarrassing.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

lol, I was also thinking this, much of this is super absurd.

exit EU, Russia "pays tons of money" to have bases in Greece

Russia doesn't have that kind of money anymore after oil prices crashed

 

[Ether_Snake]

Everyone keeps referring to Russia giving Greece money; it's about resuming trade by no longer following the sanctions currently in place.

It's fir Greece to decide, but right now I think they'll just go for their own currency and stay in the EU.

 

[sangreal]

Everyone keeps referring to Russia giving Greece money; it's about resuming trade by no longer following the sanctions currently in place.

It's fir Greece to decide, but right now I think they'll just go for their own currency and stay in the EU.

Resuming trade isn't a magic bullet either, especially when Greece has a trade deficit with Russia. Regardless, it isn't actually for Greece to decide -- the sanctions you are referring to (food embargo) are imposed by Russia, not Greece or the EU. The EU sanctions on Russia are very limited in scope.

 

[My words exactly!]

Could it be?

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/it...-εξεταστεί-η-βιωσιμότητα-του-ελληνικού-χρέους


P.S. If the corrupted greek private media escapes this unscathed you can be sure people will be puzzled. Already social media is rife with calls for their sacking

 

[michaelius]

Might be. But I refuse to believe anyone would be that incompetent. If you are in that position and your country is burning and the eyes of the whole world are on you, you and your colleagues better get together and start crunching and produce solutions to solve the problem. You need to stay in constant contact with your creditors and dont show up empty handed to weekly meetings, at least try to show that you're working on it. This appears very unprofessional to me. Now looking up what he did before politics, wikipedia says he was in the construction sector...

Competent people don't become politicians in Europe - they are taking order of magnitude higher salaries in corporations

 

[CyclopsRock]

P.S. If the corrupted greek private media escapes this unscathed you can be sure people will be puzzled. Already social media is rife with calls for their sacking

I'm not sure you can really "sack" the media. Or, rather, wouldn't it be a trifle worrying if the government did?

 

[persongr]

Greek banks will re-open on Monday at the earliest.

Greek banks won't reopen for quite some time. I mean, naturally, some rules will relax for businesses that deal with imports, for people who travel/stay abroad etc, but the capital controls are here to stay. Imagine if they were completely lifted Tuesday morning - the bank run would be tens of billions in a day.

I can see this situation last for well over a year, with gradual lifting of the controls, as happened in Cyprus.

 

[Theonik]

So that news item is basically full of shit? Are there other reports explicitly stating that these disciplinary measures are due to infringements of that particular law?

There are two accusations here. Syriza is suing them for breaching electoral law, and the unions and press associations which are independent to the government (but not necessarily unbiased but then again who is) is also going after them for their deplorable conduct. This and Syriza going after them paying their due fees are kind of landmarks in the state actively going head on with corruption. This kind of actions should be applauded imo.

I'm not sure you can really "sack" the media. Or, rather, wouldn't it be a trifle worrying if the government did?

Their owners owe a shitload of money and now there should also be fines to pay. If they refuse to pay the state should take over and float them in the stock market.

 

[LJ11]

Greek banks won't reopen for quite some time. I mean, naturally, some rules will relax for businesses that deal with imports, for people who travel/stay abroad etc, but the capital controls are here to stay. Imagine if they were completely lifted Tuesday morning - the bank run would be tens of billions in a day.

I can see this situation last for well over a year, with gradual lifting of the controls, as happened in Cyprus.

Yeah, it's hard to pick a timeline, but once you put in controls they stay for a while.

 

[Theonik]

It depends on how long it takes for markets to react to a new bailout deal. The effect is mostly psychological, once people are assured their deposits aren't going anywhere they will begin depositing money again into the banks so the need for capital controls is gradually reduced.

 

[le-seb]

I'm not sure you can really "sack" the media. Or, rather, wouldn't it be a trifle worrying if the government did?

Well, if it's anything like in France, you can fine them hard, which certainly wouldn't hurt the finances right?

 

[LJ11]

Right, gradually they'll remove the barriers but it won't be business as usual for a while, all depends really. At this stage, it's not even worth worrying about, more pressing concerns.

 

[Lubricus]

I guess I'll be buying olives that state they are a product of Greece for a while.
I hate to see the Greeks go through all this pain. I always liked Greece and the culture of Greece.
They have been in worse spots and survived.

 

[I H8 Memes]

What was the initial cause of the problems in Greece?

 

[Lubricus]

What was the initial cause of the problems in Greece?

Too much borrowing to cover costs, kind of like paying for your living expenses using credit cards and only paying the minimum payment. After a while it piles up and becomes more than your annual income.
Greece's debt is 180% of its annual Gross Domestic Product.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33354036

 

[pigeon]

What was the initial cause of the problems in Greece?

Joining the euro.

 

[Coriolanus]

Nah, both of you are starting way too late.

Konstantinos Karamanlis was the initial cause.

 

[KHarvey16]

What was the initial cause of the problems in Greece?

I like this overview:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tigaryz-1y4

 

[Jezbollah]

Joining the euro.

I would refine that slightly to: "being allowed to join the Euro"

 

[iidesuyo]

Joining the euro.

No. They were/are living way beyond what they can afford.

Simple as that.

 

[Piecake]

No. They were/are living way beyond what they can afford.

Simple as that.

Why is Japan's economy still functioning then?

 

[Coriolanus]

No. They were/are living way beyond what they can afford.

Simple as that.

Which was only possible thanks to an environment of endemic, institutionalized corruption, at which point it, surprisingly, isn't as simple as that.

Why is Japan's economy still functioning then?

Moe.

 

[LJ11]

Why is Japan's economy still functioning then?

Because they work harder than everyone else.

 

[chadskin]

What was the initial cause of the problems in Greece?

The roots of Greece's crisis are simple. Before Greece joined the Eurozone, investors treated it as a middle-income country with poor governance — which is to say, a credit risk. After Greece joined the Eurozone, investors thought that Greece was no longer a credit risk — they figured, if push came to shove, other Eurozone members like Germany would bail Greece out. They were wrong.

As this chart, via the American Enterprise Institute's Desmond Lachman, shows, after Greece joined the Eurozone, investors began lending to Greece at about the same rates as they lend to Germany. Faced with this sudden availability of cheap money, Greece began borrowing like crazy. And then, when it couldn't pay back its debts, it turned out financial markers were wrong: Germany and other Eurozone nations weren't willing to simply bail Greece out.

That led the market to panic around 2010, and you can see interest rates on Greek debt spike once again. Those high interest rates make it basically impossible for Greece to borrow, and that makes it impossible for Greece to pay its debts.

The result: Greece is insolvent and the Eurozone isn't as tight a union as the financial markets — and maybe the Eurozone's member states — believed. That's the crisis.

Speaking of tax revenues, there's no real need to belabor this, but Greece is unusually bad at collecting taxes. These numbers come from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and they show what an outlier Greece is when it comes to tax collection. This isn't the cause of Greece's crisis, but it's definitely not helping them get out of it.

Moar charts: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/1/8871509/greece-charts

 

[Coriolanus]

Should be pointed out that, while the other EU countries didn't quite bail Greece out, they most certainly bailed their investors out.

 

[iidesuyo]

Why is Japan's economy still functioning then?

Because it hasn't collapsed yet!

 

[Piecake]

Because it hasn't collapsed yet!

Then your argument concerning Greece really doesnt make much sense because Japan has been living far beyond its means far longer than Greece.

I definitely agree that it was a major factor, but it is a lot more complicated than that.

I like this overview:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tigaryz-1y4

That does a good job of explaining the various factors.

 

[iidesuyo]

Then your argument concerning Greece really doesnt make much sense because Japan has been living far beyond its means far longer than Greece.

The Japanese people have a lot of private savings and they don't treat creditors like toys to play with.

 

[Piecake]

The Japanese people have a lot of private savings and they don't treat creditors like toys to play with.

While true, you can't simply ignore the role that the EU played in this. Greece was only able to borrow so much money because creditors stupidly thought that they were just as credit worthy as Germany. Greece'ss debt to GDP wasnt actually that bad before the crisis and the loans were pretty cheap. What really fucked over Greece wasn't the fact that they were hiding their debt, which was bad, but the realization of the financial community that no, countries like Greece, Spain, Italy and Ireland are not as credit worthy as Germany. That freaked everyone out, causing them not to want to loan money to Greece, which they were now kinda banking on, and it just kinda ballooned from there.

Once it became apparent that Greece was in trouble, because it was a member of the EU it did not have control over its currency and monetary policy. If they did they could have taken action to increase competitiveness and reduce the overall debt through inflation.

Greece certainly would have experienced a recession no matter what, but the constraints of the EU has turned it into a catastrophe. Saying that they just spent beyond their means just disregards a vital piece of the picture.