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[le-seb]

Yeah, sure France. If Merkel says Nein France says Nein too.

Yes, our political men and women are vocal even if they can't do shit, too.
Especially if they can't do shit, I'd even say.

By the way, France does not subsidies churches at all.
The religious people may receive the same help as any other French citizen, and the state may give some financial assistance when restoring historical monuments belonging to the churches, but that's it. The worshippers are the ones financing the churches, here.

 

[My words exactly!]

I'm actually relatively fond of the defence minister. Also he's not the only reason why the defence budget is not touched. Greece is one of 3 countries in the Eurozone that actually is compliant with NATO recommendation for military spending. There is reaction both politically and from NATO every time cuts have been proposed. Overall I think to solve this in the long run Europe needs to agree on having common budgets for common interest matters such as defence spending. Countries like Greece have high defence expenditures which benefit other states as well but are not interested in actually footing the bill. This needs to change.

Εxactly! People from other countries fail to realise the position of Greece (both geographically as well as strategically and morphologically) and compare it to average european country

@Theonik and @oti xero

As i understand you are both Greeks right?
I check the thread quite a lot every day and i make the assumption that you are both very calm

How can you be so calm?I don't really understand it.
I am greek and especially since yesterday I tremble with fear for what is going to happen to my country.
I go to work every day and i just can't concentrate, I don't sleep well.

I really don't know how to cope with the situation :/.

I'm Greek too and i too am puzzled. However, i am not afraid of anything but ourselves. If we can keep a cool head we can go through this, whatever the outcome. This is coming from someone who just turned 30yo and in the "poor" baseline

 

[Dascu]

People here are way more knowledgeable than most Germans I have to face every single day with their "jokes" about bankrupt Greece and their snarky remarks

This is the worst. It was sickening to see how much jokes and snark my Greek ex had to endure from colleagues and classmates.

 

[M°°nblade]

Greece is a state with deep theocratic roots. Orthodox church is extremely rich - for example Patriarchate of Constantinople has lots to its name throughout Greece. Its riches are deposited at the National Bank of Greece (at some point it was rumored that the Church wanted to have a word in managing the bank). Threats of taxation are answered with threats of withdrawing the insane amounts of money, which would lead to a spectacular collapse of the bank within a night. This is why governments are afraid to do so.

Another problematic state is the amounts of defense spending. Tsipras is locked by his defense minister, a far-right pig who threatened to resign (thus dissolving the government) if Tsipras compromised with reducing the army budget.

He obviously can't touch the shipowners, he is to weak to do so.

He is trapped in a really sorry state in the negotiations, here's hoping things will go well this week :/

So basically, the people of Greek are being crushed between the church, the shipowners and the army?

And how can an army dissolve a government ... in a democracy?

It's no wonder that Tsipras couldn't handle the EU politicians and banks if he can't even handle these Greek entities. It also explains why nobody trusts him.

 

[petran79]

I'm not sure how much of the information I have is correct but here I go:

- many greeks can enjoy pension starting at the age of 50 (while my country just increased it to 65! PS: my country lend you our tax money as well, so you can thank me for that)
- there is a list of 600 categories of professions who can benefit from these 'early pension' rules, consisting of barbers and even fucking musicians
- deceased citizens aren't declared so that family members are able to receive pensions for free for decennia after the date of death
- there are 50 registered drivers for every registered car in Greece, so there's massive tax fraud here as well
- Many Greek receive 96% of their gross salary (in my country I pay like 33% taxes) as pension
- an uneducated railroad employee has earnings around 66.000€/year (in my country wages like these are reserved for bachelor/master staff)
- you guys have 1 million officials to handle the administration of only 4 million active citizens
- you have 4 times the amount of teachers of Finland (top of Europe), you pay them the best of the entire EU, yet your education is a joke looking at the amount of finished degrees

If I didn't know better, I'd say I'm talking about a third world country like Burundi or something.
If even a fraction of this information is true (and most of this isn't even development orientated), how can you say structural reforms are out of place or impossible to bear?

- During Greece's Golden Era a lot have taken advantage of early retirement with full benefits. But today not so much. There are early retirements for all occupations but most of the times it is not worth it, unless you want to earn 400 Euro a month for a job you'd be paid 1200. You pay a fine as well.

-deceased citizens and claim benefits: it did happen but to a very small extent.

-are you referring to truck drivers? I dont know what plays there. They have their own issues with professional licenses and had protested few years back, barring the streets and the transportation of goods

-96 % of salary? Where? 33 % taxes for us as well, if not more!

-Uneducated employees earning 66000? It happens but they earn 33000 Euro, which is a big sum as well. Does not happen only on railroads. A lot of high ranked supervisors have no education. They were hired the old fashioned way: "You have muscles? Come and dig!" But they are the old guard and will retire.

- 1 million public servants, not officials. Administration is just one small part.

- Education: Inaccurate data
http://www.theguardian.com/teacher-...he-job-of-a-teacher-compares-around-the-world

Teachers in Greece are paid less than Finland. 700 Euro if you are new-hired, 1700 Euro if you are close to retirement

 

[Theonik]

So basically, the people of Greek are being crushed between the church, the shipowners and the army?

And how can an army dissolve a government ... in a democracy?

It's no wonder that Tsipras coudn't handle the EU politicians and banks if he can't even handle these Greek entities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967–74

 

[KingSnake]

I lived most of my life in an Orthodox country (although I consider myself as an atheist) and now I live in a country that it's mostly Catholic and I can see how for some people might not understand the influence and power of the Orthodox church. While Catholic church still has quite some power and can influence things at the central level, the power and influence is gradually diminishing and this has fueled the perception of being quite non intrusive. Although coming from outside you can still see it.

The Orthodox church is much more involved in every level of the civil society, using its influence and power from the smallest village to the government. Priests are a lot of times also opinion makers so politicians (again, starting from mayors) most of the time prefer not to antagonise them and even use them sometimes as electoral agents. I don't know if the situation in Greece is very similar, but seing the priests supervising the installation of governments, I assume it is.

Plus, orthodoxy functions a lot more like a set of superstitions. Which makes even the ones than are not extremely religious to be cautious. If you check the percentages for people starting a religion, the Orthodox countries have always percentages in the 80-90%. Although they have also quite high corruption, so a lot of people sin quite often.

 

[Coriolanus]

So basically, the people of Greek are being crushed between the church, the shipowners and the army?

And how can an army dissolve a government ... in a democracy?

It's no wonder that Tsipras couldn't handle the EU politicians and banks if he can't even handle these Greek entities. It also explains why nobody trusts him.

At which point you're being purposefully daft and ignoring that no previous government touched those institutions so, at worst, tsipras is just as incompetent as those that preceded him.

Had you opted to look into what kinda military cuts were suggested, however, you'd have seen that the push was for cutting military personnel, which would have the awesome side-effect of creating even more unemployment.

 

[mjontrix]

So my bank put out an internal memo to start hedging the Euro for Monday.

Makes no sense.

Makes perfect sense. Reduce risk. Q is what to hedge with.

 

[persongr]

So basically, the people of Greek are being crushed between the church, the shipowners and the army?

And how can an army dissolve a government ... in a democracy?

It's no wonder that Tsipras couldn't handle the EU politicians and banks if he can't even handle these Greek entities. It also explains why nobody trusts him.

Besides a military coup d'etat (which is something Papandreou circa 2011 was really afraid of - he put away most military leaders, giving the positions to his own, trusted generals), the defense minister is the leader of the second party (Ανεξάρτητοι Έλληνες/ΑΝΕΛ/Indepedent Greeks) with which SYRIZA form a coalition. If ΑΝΕΛ resigns, the government will fall.

 

[Joni]

Administration employees so yes. Not 100% of the public sector.

It only claims to exclude teachers, academics and health care. But mainly as indication that Belgium is way higher than that, and that it is probably the same for other countries with multiple levels of government.

 

[M°°nblade]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967–74

Mother of ...

Thanks, interesting read.
Especially this:

Externally the absence of human rights in a country belonging to the Western Bloc during the Cold War was a continuous source of embarrassment for the free world (considering Greece is seen as the inventor of democracy) and this and other reasons made Greece an international pariah abroad and interrupted her process of integration with the European Union with incalculable opportunity costs.

Had you opted to look into what kinda military cuts were suggested, however, you'd have seen that the push was for cutting military personnel, which would have the awesome side-effect of creating even more unemployment.

And how is that bad?
Whether you pay over-resourced military personnel salaries or unemployement fees, both have no economic or productive value at all.
The difference is that unemployed can still get employed and thus become productive.

And Greece apparently still has universal compulsory military service? Another 9 months of productivity wasted on every Greek male. Awesome. Any other money pits?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Mother of ...

Thanks, interesting read.
Especially this:



And how is that bad?
Whether you pay over-resourced military personnel salaries or unemployement fees, both have no economic or productive value at all.
The difference is that unemployed can still get employed and thus become productive.

And Greece apparently still has universal compulsory military service? Another 9 months of productivity wasted on every Greek male. Awesome. Any other money pits?

You mean that a country with a huge employment problem, it's is good to bring more unemployment?

You can collect taxes from people with employment, you only spend money on those who don't...

 

[My words exactly!]

And how is that bad?
Whether you pay over-resourced military personnel salaries or unemployement fees, both have no economic or productive value at all.
The difference is that unemployed can still get employed and thus become productive.

And Greece apparently still has universal compulsory military service? Another 9 months of productivity wasted on every Greek male. Awesome. Any other money pits?

Μοοnblade before i answer your question, please tell me which country are from? Portugal?

 

[petran79]

he is from Finland

And Greece apparently still has universal compulsory military service? Another 9 months of productivity wasted on every Greek male. Awesome. Any other money pits?

It used to be 18 months few years ago and you could also opt for the Navy and for the Airforce in exchange for a few more months. In the Airforce you did practically nothing, hence why most youths opted for this, but you needed to have connections.

Today you can enter only Infantry. It is crazy really. When my brother went to work for a while in England he met a fellow Greek who worked as a software engineer in a company with a good pay. He had to support his bedridden parents and unemployed brother in Greece. He was declared a deserter and can not return to Greece or he will be arrested. But he could not risk to leave such a well paid job. In some things Greece is so backwards unfortunately.

 

[M°°nblade]

You mean that a country with a huge employment problem, it's is good to bring more unemployment?

You can collect taxes from people with employment, you only spend money on those who don't...

When you're collecting taxes from military service salaries you provided, you're spending money either way.

 

[Joni]

You mean that a country with a huge employment problem, it's is good to bring more unemployment?

You can collect taxes from people with employment, you only spend money on those who don't...

Unemployed person: Unemployement benefits.
Governement employee: Wage + Cost to put someone to work (offices, material, ...) - Taxes.
If you assume military don't offer any productivity, you're seeing a net benefit if Unemployement benefits < Wage + Cost to put someone to work - Taxes.
For a typical government employee: Unemployement benefit cost > Wage + Cost to put someone to work - Taxes - Benefit to country

 

[sangreal]

Unemployed person: Unemployement benefits.
Governement employee: Wage + Cost to put someone to work (offices, material, ...) - Taxes.
If you assume military don't offer any productivity, you're seeing a net benefit if Unemployement benefits < Wage + Cost to put someone to work - Taxes.

the "cost to put someone to work" is going somewhere too

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Unemployed person: Unemployement benefits.
Governement employee: Wage + Cost to put someone to work (offices, material, ...) - Taxes.
If you assume military don't offer any productivity, you're seeing a net benefit if Unemployement benefits < Wage + Cost to put someone to work - Taxes.
For a typical government employee: Unemployement benefit cost > Wage + Cost to put someone to work - Taxes - Benefit to country

The offices and most material are already paid off, those are associated to create new employments, those are already in place. There's some other cuts that could be taken into account before the human cost of kicking people of their jobs and dropping them into the unemployment hell, which means you have to offer incentives so they can get hired again, maybe greece could like...selling back all these military weapons and vehicles Greece bought to France and Germany, but I wonder if Hollande and Merkel are interested in this...

 

[Purkake4]

Unemployed person: Unemployement benefits.
Governement employee: Wage + Cost to put someone to work (offices, material, ...) - Taxes.
If you assume military don't offer any productivity, you're seeing a net benefit if Unemployement benefits < Wage + Cost to put someone to work - Taxes.
For a typical government employee: Unemployement benefit cost > Wage + Cost to put someone to work - Taxes - Benefit to country

You don't pay taxes on the unemployment benefit?

 

[My words exactly!]

he is from Finland

Nope

Anyway here is why Greece (Hellas) needs a strong army:

When you have Turkey openly dismissing greek occupance of several Aegean Island AND planning a military coup and invasion a few years ago which was averted on the last minute:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan)
http://www.aljazeera.com/focus/2010/02/201022516176575355.html
http://www.todayszaman.com/anasayfa...ent-over-islands-seized-by-greece_378291.html
(nevermind Cyprus or Imia incidents, those are known already)

Actions:

1. Downing a Turkish fighter jet
"Let's take it down ourselves, or make it look like the Greeks took it down.

"Increase the number of fly-bys in the Aegean, but make it look like harrassment by the Greeks.

"Harass the Greek planes enough to provoke a response, leading to the portrayal of the AK Party in the media as 'weak' for allowing the Aegean to be brought to the brink of war".

And when you have Albania trying to stir up a liberation struggle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_issue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Albania#Greece

Skopje is unworthy of discussion so i'll pass...

you cannot have the luxury to stay apathetic.

&#925;&#959;w if they TRULY wish to cut military budget they can easily do it
1) By paying what they OWE the greek state from bribery scandals and faulty equipment. But nope these are german companies you see... IIRC there was a similar scandal with German subs in Portugal as well. A minister was bribed 20million &#8364; by german companies.
2) By assisting and enlarging FRONTEX to help the Greek Navy safeguard Europe's south-eastern borders from millions of refugees per year. But alas, that is not their intention and EU is a joke in military.


Here is 1) in more detail:
Greece to exclude Siemens, Rheinmetall & Eurocopter from public procurements
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/20...inmetall-eurocopter-from-public-procurements/

Greece wants 100 million euros in damages from German defence firms
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/03/23/uk-greece-defence-germany-idUKKBN0MJ1BQ20150323

The Submarine Deals That Helped Sink Greece
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703636404575352991108208712
http://www.newsbomb.gr/ellada/apoka...vryxion-ston-eisaggelea-oi-amarties-toy-pasok

Meanwhile, not one of the subs had been delivered. When Greek officials traveled to Kiel to test the first sub, called the Papanikolis, they said that they found that in certain sea conditions the submarine listed to the right. "The Navy said we cannot accept this sub," said Mr. Fenekos, the admiral who recently resigned. "But the politicians did not want to stop it because they needed the production for the workers in the shipyard here."

ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems said the criticism was baseless and was made to delay payment.

By last fall, Greece had paid &#8364;2.032 billion, about 70% of the total owed. With the deal at an impasse, the German companies cancelled the contract.

Finally, in March, the two sides announced they had begun negotiating a new deal. Instead of having three older subs modernized, just one would be modernized, and Greece would buy two additional new ones, bringing the total to six new submarines&#8212;costing a total of &#8364;1.3 billion.

See why while there IS a way to cut expenses and save millions of &#8364;, they only insist in personnel cuts which further lead toward a downward spiral of more unemployment, less stability and less growth in general? The game is rigged as many have said before. That's why a grexit would be for the best.

 

[petran79]

You don't pay taxes on the unemployment benefit?

No but you can add the sum of the benefit for taxation. A lot of Greeks usually ignore this if they get a job. But there are cases where unemployed had to pay taxes too

Even so, 12 months benefit is a luxury. 6 months is the norm or less.
Also if you take the benefit 2-3 months every year and get a temp job, after a while you will not be eligible for benefit.

 

[Theonik]

Oh, the video of that insane Polish MP from today's EP is released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20IzfxEFCic

To lower the tension somewhat.

 

[Rourkey]

Not sure this letter is going to help!

 

[Coriolanus]

To those that wondered why the new government did so little to combat media bias:

11m ago18:41

Over in Athens there is mounting concern that freedom of speech has begun to pay a heavy price as the crisis deepens.
Our correspondent Helena Smith reports

Is the Greek media being one-sided or are bodies attached to prime minister Alexis Tsipras&#8217; leftist-led administration deliberately trying to silence the press? In a country feeling the social spasms that come with economic free-fall, that is the question now being asked as prominent TV anchors faced investigation for allegedly favouring the &#8216;yes&#8217; campaign in Sunday&#8217;s referendum.

Private channels (many owned by the oligarchal elite and other business interests) have been accused by the state-run media watchdog and the Union of Journalists and Athens daily newspapers (ESIEA) of purposefully cultivating a climate of fear and breaching electoral law in the run up to Sunday&#8217;s vote.

Nine anchors, household names in a nation now addicted to TV news broadcasts, have been told to appear before the disciplinary committee of ESIEA to answer allegations that the government-backed &#8216;no&#8217; campaign was deliberately frozen out of programming. ESIEA&#8217;s governing board is now dominated by Syriza sympathisers; so too is the judiciary which has also launched an inquiry into the claims.

&#8220;In 2009 we missed the big story,&#8221; said Paschos Mendrevlis, who has been widely vilified for his commentary in the conservative daily, Kathimerini.

&#8220;We failed to see that the crisis was coming. Now journalists are asking the right questions, sometimes there is exaggeration but they are basically saying &#8216;look something is wrong, very wrong&#8217; and for that they are being punished, deliberately hounded and silenced.&#8221;

The claims have lead to howls of protests that along with the economy democracy is now also at stake. Highlighting those concerns Kathimerini felt fit to write in its editorial today.

&#8220;The regime mentality that has evolved in certain centers of power is cause for grave concern and it is just a matter of time before it becomes a real threat to democracy and everything it holds truth.&#8221;

For its part, Syriza &#8211; many of whose members hail from the pro-Soviet KKE communist party &#8211; says it is being deliberated by the apparatus of a rotten political elite determined to oust the leftists from power.

 

[ElTorro]

Nine anchors, household names in a nation now addicted to TV news broadcasts, have been told to appear before the disciplinary committee of ESIEA to answer allegations that the government-backed ‘no’ campaign was deliberately frozen out of programming. ESIEA’s governing board is now dominated by Syriza sympathisers; so too is the judiciary which has also launched an inquiry into the claims.

Just wow...

 

[Osiris]

To those that wondered why the new government did so little to combat media bias:

Greece taking lessons from Russia & Putin, quelle surprise!

 

[Theonik]

Bahahahahaha

Just wow...

You were reading this thread in the lead into the election right? The private channels were in clear breach of Greek electoral law banking on Yes winning and their buddies covering their ass yet again.

Greece taking lessons from Russia & Putin, quelle surprise!

Erm&#8230; What.

 

[Rourkey]

Just wow...

Going the way of Venezuela, amazing how fast Greece has deteriorated since Syriza have taken over!

 

[Coriolanus]

Greece taking lessons from Russia & Putin, quelle surprise!

Did you perchance miss the events of the last week, when there was data on display on the amount of coverage that each channel gave to each campaign?

my god, you all have the memory of goldfishes.

The one with even coverage? The state sponsored channel.

SYRIZA IS THE NEW VENEZURUSSIA HERP DERP

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Did you perchance miss the events of the last week, when there was data on display on the amount of coverage that each channel gave to each campaign?

You know that most of the string of posters that just have posted have absolutely no interest in the facts.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Just wow...

That's all you take of the news?...

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Greece taking lessons from Russia & Putin, quelle surprise!

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Putin was pulling the strings in some of this.

 

[Theonik]

"Greece should solve their rampant corruption problems"
*Greece takes actions in punishing systemic corruption*
"Dammit Greece, Venezuela much?!"

 

[sh4mike]

I'm an ignorant American and was hoping someone could help correct my understanding.

At face value, it appears that Greece is a continual beggar. It borrowed too much, cannot find a way to repay, and is seeking another 50+ billion Euro loan this week to stay afloat.

What I don't understand is the Greek government's position on staying with the Euro. There are absolutely benefits to being a part of the Eurozone, but those benefits come at a cost. And that cost, including repayment of loans to other Eurozone members, seems a requirement for participation.

It seems a more reasonable stance for Greece would be (apologizes for going 1st person here) -- "Dear EU, we're sorry for screwing up our fiscal policy and finding ourselves unable to repay these loans. We are going to leave the EU/Euro and get our financial situation sorted out. Once we are financially stable, we will come back to the EU and work to convince you all that we are now fiscally responsible and request that you let us back into the Euro club. Or, depending on how things are working out at that time, we might stick to what is working. Regardless, our hope is to one day pay back all this defaulted debt."

Again, this is a request for clarification, as I am ignorant on most of what is happening in Europe. Appreciate any response.

 

[My words exactly!]

"Greece should solve their rampant corruption problems"
*Greece takes actions in punishing systemic corruption*
"Dammit Greece, Venezuela much?!"

Some people really only see what they want to see it seems. Like they weren't around last week.

 

[KingSnake]

To those that wondered why the new government did so little to combat media bias:

What's the punishment they face? The channel has to pay a fee?

 

[Heartfyre]

Oh, the video of that insane Polish MP from today's EP is released.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20IzfxEFCic

To lower the tension somewhat.

While I know very little about Korwin-Mikke, the way he finished his little tirade reminds me of how Cato the Elder finished all of his senatorial speeches before the Third Punic War. No matter what the topic of his speech, he would always close by saying "Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed." I hope he's aware of the reference he's making.

 

[Theonik]

What's the punishment they face? The channel has to pay a fee?

The disciplinary committee will discuss what the penalties will be. Syriza was also trying to get the channels to pay the millions the channels owe the government in licensing fees.

Edit:

While I know very little about Korwin-Mikke, the way he finished his little tirade reminds me of how Cato the Elder finished all of his senatorial speeches before the Third Punic War. No matter what the topic of his speech, he would always close by saying "Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed." I hope he's aware of the reference he's making.

I dunno he's a weird guy. He pulled this stunt yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYRHMODPK60

 

[Coriolanus]

While I know very little about Korwin-Mikke, the way he finished his little tirade reminds me of how Cato the Elder finished all of his senatorial speeches before the Third Punic War. No matter what the topic of his speech, he would always close by saying "Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed." I hope he's aware of the reference he's making.

I always took it as a rule of thumb that anyone that uses a bow tie in daily life is buttfuck crazy. Yet to be proven wrong.

 

[ElTorro]

You were reading this thread in the lead into the election right? The private channels were in clear breach of Greek electoral law banking on Yes winning and their buddies covering their ass yet again.

I haven't read every post in this or the last thread. What's the rule of that law and who broke it how?

 

[YoungFa]

Is it me or is Tsipras a deceiving opportunist in every way of the definition?

 

[Coriolanus]

Is it me or is Tsipras a deceiving opportunist in every way of the definition?

It is you. Dude coulda just done what every other prime minister did, bent the knee and enjoyed the ride while looting the country if that was his only interest.

 

[Osiris]

Is it me or is Tsipras a deceiving opportunist in every way of the definition?

He's not an opportunist, I don't see any Machiavellian cunning in any of his moves that others have seemed to ascribe to him, just an average politician who has a very angry tiger by the tail and doesn't know what to do about it.

Every action he has taken so far has looked to me to have been reactive rather than proactive, and not just reactive, but you know that painful moment you watch a friend who can't get something right for all he tries? The one who makes the wrong move every time?

That's Tsipras that is, loveable, but failing, flailing and trapped in a nightmare.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Great speech by Tsipras today, glad he isn't backing down.

 

[PJV3]

He's not an opportunist, I don't see any Machiavellian cunning in any of his moves that others have seemed to ascribe to him, just an average politician who has a very angry tiger by the tail and doesn't know what to do about it.

Every action he has taken so far has looked to me to have been reactive rather than proactive, and not just reactive, but you know that painful moment you watch a friend who can't get something right for all he tries? The one who makes the wrong move every time?

That's Tsipras that is, loveable, but failing, flailing and trapped in a nightmare.

Imagine any leader trying to sell such a colossal shit sandwich to their people, there is no right answer.

 

[Theonik]

He's not an opportunist, I don't see any Machiavellian cunning in any of his moves that others have seemed to ascribe to him, just an average politician who has a very angry tiger by the tail and doesn't know what to do about it.

Every action he has taken so far has looked to me to have been reactive rather than proactive, and not just reactive, but you know that painful moment you watch a friend who can't get something right for all he tries? The one who makes the wrong move every time?
That's Tsipras that is, loveable, but failing, flailing and trapped in a nightmare.

#Team11thDimensionChess

 

[My words exactly!]

I haven't read every post in this or the last thread. What's the rule of that law and who broke it how?

Oh... i dunno... Impartiality? Honest reporting?
In case you missed, some examples for you and others...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170600986&postcount=1709
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170599984&postcount=1706
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170610421&postcount=1736
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170566271&postcount=1616
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170862623&postcount=2029
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170563903&postcount=1602
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170988509&postcount=2767
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170809937&postcount=1984
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170834660&postcount=1996
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170965379&postcount=2257
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170696623&postcount=1906
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170883476&postcount=2053
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170912081&postcount=2083
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170547151&postcount=1420
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170550664&postcount=1449
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170866154&postcount=2033
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170666332&postcount=1847

Also, don't forget the YES/NO being "close" according to polls...

 

[SnakeXs]

Great speech by Tsipras today, glad he isn't backing down.

Probably unlikely but a transcript would be amazing. I'd love to read through it.

Edit: in English. I read Greek at about a 4th grade level. And will need to look up definitions for most of the words anyway.

 

[YoungFa]

He's not an opportunist, I don't see any Machiavellian cunning in any of his moves that others have seemed to ascribe to him, just an average politician who has a very angry tiger by the tail and doesn't know what to do about it.

Every action he has taken so far has looked to me to have been reactive rather than proactive, and not just reactive, but you know that painful moment you watch a friend who can't get something right for all he tries? The one who makes the wrong move every time?

That's Tsipras that is, loveable, but failing, flailing and trapped in a nightmare.

Might be. But I refuse to believe anyone would be that incompetent. If you are in that position and your country is burning and the eyes of the whole world are on you, you and your colleagues better get together and start crunching and produce solutions to solve the problem. You need to stay in constant contact with your creditors and dont show up empty handed to weekly meetings, at least try to show that you're working on it. This appears very unprofessional to me. Now looking up what he did before politics, wikipedia says he was in the construction sector...