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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures

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Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
If this is what the European leadership has envisioned for Europe I agree. And I implore every other weaker country to think of the same. Staying in the Euro is madness. Their time will come. But they can yet be saved.

For others, even without the exit stress, there's weighing lower borrowing costs against a stronger currency than wanted...

Exit stress is key though. Capital controls and whatnot aren't worth it without going full default - and Italy isn't going full default.
 

Ether_Snake

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The Financial Times has an article about Tsipras, and how the current proposal is basically given because either Schauble and co. will be isolated and have to accept debt restructuring, or force Greece out and create a rift among the creditors and isolate Schauble and co. Basically, win/win.

The Guardian had an article by Varoufakis saying Schauble wants Greece out to scare others that this is what will happen if they don't discipline themselves.

Also the "Tsipras betrayed Greece!" I'm hearing here is funny, wishful thinking. Nothing is over yet.
 
The Financial Times has an article about Tsipras, and how the current proposal is basically given because either Schauble and co. will be isolated and have to accept debt restructuring, or force Greece out and create a rift among the creditors and isolate Schauble and co. Basically, win/win.

The Guardian had an article by Varoufakis saying Schauble wants Greece out to scare others that this is what will happen if they don't discipline themselves.

Also the "Tsipras betrayed Greece!" I'm hearing here is funny, wishful thinking. Nothing is over yet.

Which specific article on FT? (I can only read so many a month.)
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
The Financial Times has an article about Tsipras, and how the current proposal is basically given because either Schauble and co. will be isolated and have to accept debt restructuring, or force Greece out and create a rift among the creditors and isolate Schauble and co. Basically, win/win.

The Guardian had an article by Varoufakis saying Schauble wants Greece out to scare others that this is what will happen if they don't discipline themselves.

Also the "Tsipras betrayed Greece!" I'm hearing here is funny, wishful thinking. Nothing is over yet.

Yeah, let's wait for the decisions first, before talking about any kind of win. There is still possible to accept the new austerity measures and the new 50 billions loan without any debt relief.
 

Ether_Snake

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Which specific article on FT? (I can only read so many a month.)

On the site, top header: Tsipras, a pragmatist now considered a hardliner. I'm on my phone, can't get the link.

Stupid paywall too, the quotes I read were from The Guardians' quotes of the article.

Edit: btw so far this is a win for Tsipras and Syriza, not a great one obviously, but hhe polls are showing as much and unless there is a strong popular backlash that's what it is. Secondly, it helps Podemos because there is a precedent for a similar party to be elected, and not only did they call s referendum but also got an agreement. So unless the Troika kicks Greece out I don't see this being worst for Podemos, people will see putting Podemos in power as both a way to protect themselves and also not necessarily leave the currency.

Thzt being said, I still think the deal will fall, because a clique in the Troika will still want a defeat for Syriza and Tsipras at all cost to send a message to the rest of Europe. Will see if this clique can be isolated.
 
Varoufakis: Our one mistake was thinking that people would prefer political suicide to EZ suicide.

In my first week as minister for finance I was visited by Jeroen Dijsselbloem, president of the Eurogroup (the eurozone finance ministers), who put a stark choice to me: accept the bailout’s “logic” and drop any demands for debt restructuring or your loan agreement will “crash” – the unsaid repercussion being that Greece’s banks would be boarded up.

Five months of negotiations ensued under conditions of monetary asphyxiation and an induced bank-run supervised and administered by the European Central Bank. The writing was on the wall: unless we capitulated, we would soon be facing capital controls, quasi-functioning cash machines, a prolonged bank holiday and, ultimately, Grexit.

By the time Syriza won power last January, and as if to confirm our claim that the “bailouts” had nothing to do with rescuing Greece (and everything to do with ringfencing northern Europe), a large majority within the Eurogroup – under the tutelage of Schäuble – had adopted Grexit either as their preferred outcome or weapon of choice against our government.

Greeks, rightly, shiver at the thought of amputation from monetary union. Exiting a common currency is nothing like severing a peg, as Britain did in 1992, when Norman Lamont famously sang in the shower the morning sterling quit the European exchange rate mechanism (ERM). Alas, Greece does not have a currency whose peg with the euro can be cut. It has the euro – a foreign currency fully administered by a creditor inimical to restructuring our nation’s unsustainable debt.

To exit, we would have to create a new currency from scratch. In occupied Iraq, the introduction of new paper money took almost a year, 20 or so Boeing 747s, the mobilisation of the US military’s might, three printing firms and hundreds of trucks. In the absence of such support, Grexit would be the equivalent of announcing a large devaluation more than 18 months in advance: a recipe for liquidating all Greek capital stock and transferring it abroad by any means available.

With Grexit reinforcing the ECB-induced bank run, our attempts to put debt restructuring back on the negotiating table fell on deaf ears. Time and again we were told that this was a matter for an unspecified future that would follow the “programme’s successful completion” – a stupendous Catch-22 since the “programme” could never succeed without a debt restructure.

What do I mean by that? Based on months of negotiation, my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency to put the fear of God into the French and have them accept his model of a disciplinarian eurozone.

Capitulation, ho!
 
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Anal ysis

Anyway Schauble is getting increasingly isolated by the looks of things.Maybe US can talk some sense into him.
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Theonik

Member
For others, even without the exit stress, there's weighing lower borrowing costs against a stronger currency than wanted...

Exit stress is key though. Capital controls and whatnot aren't worth it without going full default - and Italy isn't going full default.
Well yes, at the same time though, if the EZ survives this, they can rejoin when people have restored their sanity/are ready to actually make the EZ work.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Euro zone doesn't work. Under any condition shouldn't a central bank (ECB) let what happens to Greek banks now happen. This is independent of the austerity and negotiations and all.

ECB didn't do it's job towards the banks under its supervision. Which makes the monetary union not functional de facto.
 
Yet his popularity is on an all time high...
This will get ugly really quick for Merkel if she makes too many concessions (debt relief).
I don't get why they don't just postpone the payments and interest. Then when things have cooled down sit down and forgive some debt. For now that doesn't make Germany seem weak to their population and on the long term it will get Greece out of having unmanageable debt.

They'll need to pay some parts, but does it really matter if the EU gets some parts back in 5 years or 25 years. It's not like countries are going anywhere.
 

Theonik

Member
I don't get why they don't just postpone the payments and interest. Then when things have cooled down sit down and forgive some debt. For now that doesn't make Germany seem weak to their population and on the long term it will get Greece out of having unmanageable debt.

They'll need to pay some parts, but does it really matter if the EU gets some parts back in 5 years or 25 years. It's not like countries are going anywhere.
But what if other countries then ask to be treated as if they were populated by real people. Cannot allow that to happen because it would be too good for the European Project.
 

Xando

Member
But he was the one that recently mentioned that Greece needed debt relief...

Up is down, left is right.

Well that's basically how it goes at the moment. Everything tough fares well for Schäuble. Merkel is kinda seen as the weak link at the moment so any concession will fall back on her.

In other news, i've never seen the baltic head of states in german news like i do these days.
 

Theonik

Member
Well that's basically how it goes at the moment. Everything tough fares well for Schäuble. Merkel is kinda seen as the weak link at the moment so any concession will fall back on her.

In other news, i've never seen the baltic head of states in german news like i do these days.
Gotta show that Germany is not getting isolated in this matter. To depict Germany as the villain to its own people would be bad.
Not that Germany is only to blame for this. Or is the only state that is trying to look good to its people.

The stories about Germany being isolated or even just the Eurogroup being split are such nonsense stories again.
Narratives yo.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I think Syriza made a big tactical mistake by going to Putin and playing the Russian card. That annoyed the hell out of a lot of people in the Eastern Europe and helped Greece with nothing. Germany is friend with Russia, so that did nothing for them.
 
As always people overestimate germany and underestimate the baltics and dutch.

Well, it's like the past months. Hollande did Greek friendly statements since Tsipras very first visit in France - even now it was just about the proposael being serious and credible (it just took 5 months - kind of sad). And Germany isn't even the hardliner in the Eurogroup.
 
Zoe to Tsipras: Get. Fucked.

It may be the most important vote in recent modern Greek history but the president of the parliament, Zoe Konstantopoulou, has decided its 300 members will have to wait.

A stickler for following the rules, the young Konstantopoulou is insisting that as the bill is being fast-tracked parliament will have to convene on two consecutive days. As lawmakers were waiting for the session to begin, the fiery leftist called a meeting of parliamentary vice presidents to explain the situation. The meeting is still ongoing.

Sources are saying that as a result the chamber will not start debating until one minute past midnight. The vote is expected to take place around 4 AM (2am BST) although if MPs are feeling loquacious, ballots may not be cast until around 6am (4am BST)

Konstantopoulou formalism is causing waves with several MPs criticising the move on television tonight. With the eyes of the world now focused on Athens, they want to endorse the proposed reforms ASAP.

More a sign of dissent inside the party than anything else, tbh. Jacobin already has two articles from the Left Platform criticizing his conduct.
 

Crosseyes

Banned
Some people in the EU sound like raving lunatics, 11 million people getting shafted to prove a point.
But those 11 million people wouldnt be their people. I think its pretty well shown by both polls of civilians and the different governments' actions that they'd systematically cripple and kill the other nations populations if their own benefitted. Europe has lived by this a lot longer than its remained peaceful.
 
Zoe to Tsipras: Get. Fucked.

More a sign of dissent inside the party than anything else, tbh. Jacobin already has two articles from the Left Platform criticizing his conduct.
Stuff like this isn't helping in showing the world Greece is doing all it can to work out their trouble...

But those 11 million people wouldnt be their people. I think its pretty well shown by both polls of civilians and the different governments' actions that they'd systematically cripple and kill the other nations populations if their own benefitted. Europe has lived by this a lot longer than its remained peaceful.

Pretty much. Nobody is an 'European'. People in France don't care about people in Estonia and people in Spain don't care about people in Finland. Can't really force them to care either and I don't see that changing anytime soon. And I'm guilty of thinking the same thing on some issues.
 

aeolist

Banned
i can't help but wonder how much this whole disaster will empower euroskeptic parties in different member states. seems like they're all far-right nutjobs who mostly hate the EU because of things like immigration but i could easily see the obvious dysfunction the greek situation has revealed convincing a lot of voters that they're right after all.
 
Stuff like this isn't helping in showing the world Greece is doing all it can to work out their trouble...

She's from the Left, she gives as many fucks about global feedback as the germans do.

Let us not pretend that creditors would act with goodwill towards Greece even if things went swimmingly, either.
 

Vlodril

Member
Pretty much. Nobody is an 'European'. People in France don't care about people in Estonia and people in Spain don't care about people in Finland. Can't really force them to care either and I don't see that changing anytime soon. And I'm guilty of thinking the same thing on some issues.

And isn't that the problem in a nutshell.
 
She's from the Left, she gives as many fucks about global feedback as the germans do.

Let us not pretend that creditors would act with goodwill towards Greece even if things went swimmingly, either.
I understand, but the media in other countries will spin this around as "look at those Greeks being difficult again when asking for our money!" as they do all the time.

i can't help but wonder how much this whole disaster will empower euroskeptic parties in different member states. seems like they're all far-right nutjobs who mostly hate the EU because of things like immigration but i could easily see the obvious dysfunction the greek situation has revealed convincing a lot of voters that they're right after all.
Which is funny, since all those anti-immigration parties should also see how Southern Europe gets all the immigrants from Africa and the Middle-east coming in and eating the cost for that, being a buffer zone for them basically. When they get to the other countries, we sent them back to Greece and Italy, since they entered the EU there and now it's their problem.
 

PJV3

Member
But those 11 million people wouldnt be their people. I think its pretty well shown by both polls of civilians and the different governments' actions that they'd systematically cripple and kill the other nations populations if their own benefitted. Europe has lived by this a lot longer than its remained peaceful.

Certain sections of society think that way, sadly they have the upper hand in most of europe at the moment.
 
And isn't that the problem in a nutshell.

That's the problem of multi-national unions, yes.

You can't force people to become Europeans. It's not that Greeks are some role model Europeans either - one of the first thing people did in Greece was burning EU flags.
 

LJ11

Member
I don't get why they don't just postpone the payments and interest. Then when things have cooled down sit down and forgive some debt. For now that doesn't make Germany seem weak to their population and on the long term it will get Greece out of having unmanageable debt.

They'll need to pay some parts, but does it really matter if the EU gets some parts back in 5 years or 25 years. It's not like countries are going anywhere.

They just need to clear out the 25b or so block that's coming due over the next 3 years, moving the ECB SMP bonds (Greek bonds Trichet bought at a huge discount when they were going belly up) is a start to that. Pay off part of the IMF and give a 3 year window where they aren't renegotiating. Lets see if it happens.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Pretty much. Nobody is an 'European'. People in France don't care about people in Estonia and people in Spain don't care about people in Finland. Can't really force them to care either and I don't see that changing anytime soon. And I'm guilty of thinking the same thing on some issues.

One major obstacle, despite the fact that almost every country has a long history backing up its identity, is that we don't really have a common language. Consequently, we don't have a common media that gives us a common view on things. I don't see how a majority of people can identify as Europeans before identifying as Germans/French/Greek/... without a common language. Sure, many people speak English, but we just have to look at the European Council to see how much people just prefer and need their native language. That won't change quickly.

Human group identity is a bitch. Guess we have to wait for the Aliens to attack Earth and finally force us to unite. (Who am I kidding, the Aliens would kill us while Europe is still debating about whether we should call them Aliens, Martians, or Saganians).
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
One major obstacle, despite the fact that almost every country has a long history backing up its identity, is that we don't really have a common language. Consequently, we don't have a common media that gives us a common view on things. I don't see how a majority of people can identify as Europeans before identifying as Germans/French/Greek/... without a common language. Sure, many people speak English, but we just have to look at the European Council to see how much people just prefer and need their native language. That won't change quickly.

Human group identity is a bitch. Guess we have to wait for the Aliens to attack Earth and finally force us to unite.

You don't need a common language to form a common identity, though. Swiss still think they're Swiss rather than French or German regardless of whether they speak French or German.
 

Hrothgar

Member
You don't need a common language to form a common identity, though. Swiss still think they're Swiss rather than French or German regardless of whether they speak French or German.

The Swiss also have a common history stretching back centuries.
 

Syriel

Member
Just a guess, but try living on a smallish island for a while, and chances are you'll find life to be more expensive there than on the continent.

it's really expensive to get many goods to the Greek islands, some are pretty remote. The reduced VAT is an attempt to maintain price parity on the islands compared to the mainland to stop everyone leaving the islands.

It's pretty much common sense that living in a remote area is going to cost more. People who choose to do so, usually do it for the natural beauty and the other benefits.

But it doesn't make sense to ask others who likely aren't as well off enough to afford a choice of where to live, to subsidize the choices of those who want to live on the islands rather than the mainland.

I mean, put it this way: if the American government said "it's too expensive to maintain Hawaii, let's force the entire population to move to the mainland via the use of economic pricing", people would probably not take it lying down, no?

Expect, Hawaii is more expensive than the mainland because so much has to be shipped. As an example, milk is $7-9 per gallon in Hawaii. You're going to pay $3/gallon in SF.

People pay a lot more to live in Hawaii because it is a beautiful environment. If the US government tried to justify subsidizing costs in Hawaii so that they were equal to the mainland, it would be seen as a giveaway.

But those 11 million people wouldnt be their people. I think its pretty well shown by both polls of civilians and the different governments' actions that they'd systematically cripple and kill the other nations populations if their own benefitted. Europe has lived by this a lot longer than its remained peaceful.

Until Europe becomes a nation, rather than a collection of nations, you're always going to see this.
 

Theonik

Member
"To ask us to make a MoU without tax evasion measures is like you playing as Bayern and we as Barcelona but us not being allowed to use Messi or Meimar and Merkel said and that other dude don't remember who *guy in parliament answers* and this proves that Ms. Merkel knows more about football that I do" - Greek Minister of Finance.
 

Theonik

Member
And for some reason they don't want to be part of the Europe.
Because they are wise. Greece should learn from them. I like Syriel's suggestion from earlier in the thread about turning Greece into a Swiss-like databank.

Expect, Hawaii is more expensive than the mainland because so much has to be shipped. As an example, milk is $7-9 per gallon in Hawaii. You're going to pay $3/gallon in SF.

People pay a lot more to live in Hawaii because it is a beautiful environment. If the US government tried to justify subsidizing costs in Hawaii so that they were equal to the mainland, it would be seen as a giveaway.
Greek islands are similar. Goods have to be shipped in the mainland. But unlike Hawaii which is a state and can regulate its own tax, all sales tax in Greece gets regulated by the republic. So instead of having relatively low tax as Hawaii does, they require subsidies by the republic.
 
Because they are wise. Greece should learn from them. I like Syriel's suggestion from earlier in the thread about turning Greece into a Swiss-like databank.

Well, for doing stuff like that a country and its bank system should be trustworthy. I think Greece has a PR problem in that regard.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
It's pretty much common sense that living in a remote area is going to cost more. People who choose to do so, usually do it for the natural beauty and the other benefits.

But it doesn't make sense to ask others who likely aren't as well off enough to afford a choice of where to live, to subsidize the choices of those who want to live on the islands rather than the mainland.



Expect, Hawaii is more expensive than the mainland because so much has to be shipped. As an example, milk is $7-9 per gallon in Hawaii. You're going to pay $3/gallon in SF.

People pay a lot more to live in Hawaii because it is a beautiful environment. If the US government tried to justify subsidizing costs in Hawaii so that they were equal to the mainland, it would be seen as a giveaway.



Until Europe becomes a nation, rather than a collection of nations, you're always going to see this.

But.. the US does subsidise some states a lot heavier than others. I have no idea about Hawaii, but i do know that the red states tend to depend a lot more on federal money than blue states. So blue states pay taxes that end up in red states. Whether you hand the money out disproportionately or collect it disproportionately seems all the same to me.
 
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