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[Coriolanus]

lewlz

Kathimerini English @ekathimerini

Former FinMin #Varoufakis tweets he will not be present at parliament vote due to family reasons #Greece

"I aint gon openly oppose this shit, but fuck you if you think imma help it pass."

I am still baffled by the fact that Tsipras thought the referendum would impress any of the creditors enough to radically change their positions. Why the fuck would you think that.

If he thought that, he'd have put far more favorable terms for Greece in the proposal he submitted. Dude didn't even do that.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Anyone else find this a bit weird?...

My guess is that it's a lot easier to buy luxury products abroad vs food, transport etc. Just a guess, but it might be a matter of simply taxing in a way that's hardest to avoid.

 

[LJ11]

Neither will be the outcome, and I'm assuming you're referring to a haircut on the nominal value of debt.

If Greece tumbling out of the Eurozone is avoided, there's probably room to talk about reducing the debt burden in other ways.

There's already been talk of reducing the debt burden near term with little to no movement. Yanis proposed they buy back about 27b in bonds the ECB is holding, they would do this by going through the ESM. Right now, the ECB has earned a profit on the bonds but returns said profit/interest back to Greece, think they're holding close to $2B right now. Problem is there's a long wait period in order to get the funds back and Greece still has to pay out the interest. ECB holds funds until certain reviews are completed. Yanis feels the bonds should have never been purchased via the SMP, should have been part of the PSI.

If they're able to get a lump sum payment on these profits they want to retire the first IMF program loan. Over the next few years they need to rollover via the bonds and pay the IMF loan, would be paying IMF early. Greece would be able to knock off the 24b funding they need over this period and push it further back. Would give them some good breathing room. Lets see what happens.

 

[ElTorro]

If he thought that, he'd have put far more favorable terms for Greece in the proposal he submitted. Dude didn't even do that.

Maybe the creditors where very clear in the private talks leading up to that proposal. Would have liked to see Tsipras' face to see if that really surprised him.

 

[M°°nblade]

Anyone else find this a bit weird?...

There's a difference between refined food and unrefined, basic food (also 13%)

Integral document:

VAT reform
Adopt legislation to reform the VAT system that will be effective as of July 1, 2015. The reform will target a net revenue gain of 1 percent of GDP on an annual basis from parametric changes. The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will include restaurants and catering, and a reduced 13 percent rate for basic food, energy, hotels, and water (excluding sewage), and a super-reduced rate of 6 percent for pharmaceuticals, books, and theater; (ii) streamline exemptions to broaden the base and raise the tax on insurance; and (iii) Eliminate discounts on islands, starting with the islands with higher incomes and which are the most popular tourist destinations, except the most remote ones. This will be completed by end-2016, as appropriate and targeted fiscally neutral measures to compensate those inhabitants that are most in need are determined. The new VAT rates on hotels and islands will be implemented from October 2015.

The rest of the document:
http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20150710_01771253

 

[AndyD]

Can someone explain the special treatment of the islands (big tourist ones vs. remote ones). I can't tell why and what benefits each get over mainland.

 

[GringoLOCOo]

I'm not experienced or know much about what's going on but from what i've been reading and watching , the euro seems pointless especially when it's doing more harm to countries with the debts they have.

In the long run wouldn't a Grexit be the best option for Greece ?

 

[le-seb]

Can someone explain the special treatment of the islands (big tourist ones vs. remote ones). I can't tell why and what benefits each get over mainland.

If I'm not mistaken: the islands have a 30% rebate on VAT (and maybe other taxes), and the plan is to suppress this rebate over a pair of years, starting with the more touristy ones.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Saw this from YouGov:

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Why are they even asking Sweden? They're not in the Eurozone nor pegged to it and contribute only though the IMF package. May as well ask Gabon.

 

[oti]

Lithuanian president Dalia Grybauskaite is sounding a cautious note.

Reuters reports her comments to reporters:

It is probably too early to evaluate [the proposals] because they are based on old information and it seems those proposals will really not be enough.

 

[AndyD]

I'm not experienced or know much about what's going on but from what i've been reading and watching , the euro seems pointless especially when it's doing more harm to countries with the debts they have.

In the long run wouldn't a Grexit be the best option for Greece ?

I think a significant portion of the debt was incurred once they joined the euro and had access to advantageous euro loan terms. So they sort of reaped the euro benefits when the world/Europe economy was at its strongest and were hit hard once the economy weakened.

If I'm not mistaken: the islands have a 30% rebate on VAT (and maybe other taxes), and the plan is to suppress this rebate over a pair of years, starting with the more touristy ones.

I see that, but I meant why do they have these rebates to begin with? Why are some areas favored over others?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Why are they even asking Sweden? They're not in the Eurozone nor pegged to it and contribute only though the IMF package. May as well ask Gabon.

I was just thinking, surely it's easier to say they should reduce the debt when your money isn't on the line. Then I looked again. Wow, Sweden is harsh even with other people's money!

 

[le-seb]

I see that, but I meant why do they have these rebates to begin with? Why are some areas favored over others?

Just a guess, but try living on a smallish island for a while, and chances are you'll find life to be more expensive there than on the continent.

 

[Joni]

Why are they even asking Sweden? They're not in the Eurozone nor pegged to it and contribute only though the IMF package. May as well ask Gabon.

Great Britain is also funny. They would never take that stance if it was their money.

 

[Theonik]

Great Britain is also funny. They would never take that stance if it was their money.

I don't think it's just that. I think they are smug that they dodged the Eurobullet.

 

[petran79]

I don't think it's just that. I think they are smug that they dodged the Eurobullet.

they dodged Scottland's independence too!

 

[Nicktendo86]

lewlz



"I aint gon openly oppose this shit, but fuck you if you think imma help it pass."



If he thought that, he'd have put far more favorable terms for Greece in the proposal he submitted. Dude didn't even do that.

Lol, 'family reasons' is the political equivalent of saying you've got the shits to get a day off work.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I see that, but I meant why do they have these rebates to begin with? Why are some areas favored over others?

it's really expensive to get many goods to the Greek islands, some are pretty remote. The reduced VAT is an attempt to maintain price parity on the islands compared to the mainland to stop everyone leaving the islands.

 

[Theonik]

Lol, 'family reasons' is the political equivalent of saying you've got the shits to get a day off work.

He's probably preparing to leave the country.

they dodged Scottland's independence too!

Just barely, at the cost of hugely devolved powers for Scotland! If they back out look for the next referendum not going as well.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Come on, let's get to lucky 13...

https://twitter.com/yannikouts/status/619525367066423296

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Come on, let's get to lucky 13...

https://twitter.com/yannikouts/status/619525367066423296

Huh, I didn't know Greece's constitution worked like that.

Varoufakis needs to lead us to a better future. Where is our hero, our Dark Knight?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

"Daphne Papadopoulou ‏@daphnenews 13m13 minutes ago

1/ Varoufakis' letter says: 'With the present [letter] I would like to inform you that I vote in favour of the draft bill authorizing >

2/ FinMin Euclid Tsakalotos to negotiate at the Eurogroup, particularly where it concerns the restructuring of public debt. My absence >

Daphne Papadopoulou ‏@daphnenews 11m11 minutes ago

3/ from Athens is due to purely family reasons."

That's a nai

 

[Deleted member 231381]

yeah, but we knows that's bollocks. "family reasons" is like the age-old political excuse for "i need to abstain without actually being seen to abstain".

 

[Theonik]

He's holding onto that debt restructuring dream.

 

[M°°nblade]

He's holding onto that debt restructuring dream.

Pff why restructure? Cancellation baby. The debt is illegal, illegitimate and odious, remember.
http://greekdebttruthcommission.org/

 

[ElTorro]

Pff why restructure? Cancellation baby. The debt is illegal, illegitimate and odious, remember.
http://greekdebttruthcommission.org/

I love how this commission is soberly and impartially called the "Truth" commission.

 

[oti]

This is the real House of Cards.

 

[ElTorro]

This is the real House of Cards.

A vote for Alexis Underwood is a vote for Greece Works.

 

[Theonik]

This is the real House of Cards.

The House of Cards is pretty realistic. I mean. Even Bill Clinton admitted to be a fan of the show and considered it a realistic depiction of politics.

I'll let you ponder that fact for a moment.

 

[M°°nblade]

I love how this commission is soberly and impartially called the "Truth" commission.

Reminds me of
https://twitter.com/lensoftruth

 

[PJV3]

Great Britain is also funny. They would never take that stance if it was their money.

Nah, i would say you don't notice this stuff when it gets into the billions, it's not like i've got that much in my bank account.

Then again i have a soft spot for Greece.

 

[petran79]

I love how this commission is soberly and impartially called the "Truth" commission.

most of its members have contributed to the debt in the past....

 

[CyclopsRock]

Why are they even asking Sweden? They're not in the Eurozone nor pegged to it and contribute only though the IMF package. May as well ask Gabon.

Good point, I'll see if I can find Gabon's data. It's a voice that's been scandalously overlooked so far in the debate.

 

[wrowa]

Huh, I didn't know Greece's constitution worked like that.

Works like what? It's just a parliament vote. The parliamant has 300 seats and of that Syrizia + Pasok have 162 seats. So, if 13 of Tsipra's people vote for no, he won't have a majority. (Except if the opposition votes for yes, that is).

 

[AndyD]

Just a guess, but try living on a smallish island for a while, and chances are you'll find life to be more expensive there than on the continent.

it's really expensive to get many goods to the Greek islands, some are pretty remote. The reduced VAT is an attempt to maintain price parity on the islands compared to the mainland to stop everyone leaving the islands.

That's what I figured. It's subsidizing the island population. Are Greeks in favor of that? As in, is it a large point of contention on a day to day basis? Outside these negotiations.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Works like what? It's just a parliament vote. The parliamant has 300 seats and of that Syrizia + Pasok has 162 seats. So, if 13 of Tsipra's people vote for no, he won't have a majority. (Except if the opposition votes for yes, that is).

No. ND will also vote Yes, so the people in favour of Yes have a huge majority. That's not the issue; as far as I understand it from that tweet, the vote also needs a majority from the government's MPs alone. I mean, I could be reading wrong, but if I am I have no idea why anyone is worried, it will pass easy.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

That's what I figured. It's subsidizing the island population. Are Greeks in favor of that? As in, is it a large point of contention on a day to day basis? Outside these negotiations.

I mean, put it this way: if the American government said "it's too expensive to maintain Hawaii, let's force the entire population to move to the mainland via the use of economic pricing", people would probably not take it lying down, no?

 

[ElTorro]

I think it would "just" be a big political defeat if Tsipras cannot assemble a majority within his own coalition, but it would not be an issue about whether the vote would pass or not.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I think it would "just" be a big political defeat if Tsipras cannot assemble a majority within his own coalition, but it would not be an issue about whether the vote would pass or not.

Oh, so it's pretty conventional, then. That's boring. Does look like PASOK are really liking losing all their seats, though.

 

[AndyD]

I mean, put it this way: if the American government said "it's too expensive to maintain Hawaii, let's force the entire population to move to the mainland via the use of economic pricing", people would probably not take it lying down, no?

Sure. But I am not sure if Hawaii is self-sufficient enough through tourism to not be a significant drag, and I certainly don't remember them getting lower everyday taxes than the rest of the US. And it's a small one off island compared to the size of the US. In a similar vein, I think sky high prices on milk and bread in Alaska are surely a deterrent from people moving there in droves.

I am not trying to say they should not be helped in Greece, I was just wondering how many small vs. large tourist islands there are relative to the size/population of the mainland and whether it creates any internal strife.

 

[pulsemyne]

Great Britain is also funny. They would never take that stance if it was their money.

We put lots of money into the IMF. We also contribute a lot of money to the EU. However we too have gone and will still be going through Austerity cuts. That's probably why it's a fairly even split.

 

[Purkake4]

While everyone thinks Tsirpas is playing 11th dimension chess, he's actually playing ultimate frisbee.

 

[LJ11]

Ecb bonds will move to ESM like Yanis wanted according to Euclid.


Edit: well that's what I'm guessing based on tweets. We'll see.

 

[Joni]

Works like what? It's just a parliament vote. The parliamant has 300 seats and of that Syrizia + Pasok have 162 seats. So, if 13 of Tsipra's people vote for no, he won't have a majority. (Except if the opposition votes for yes, that is).

No. ND will also vote Yes, so the people in favour of Yes have a huge majority. That's not the issue; as far as I understand it from that tweet, the vote also needs a majority from the government's MPs alone. I mean, I could be reading wrong, but if I am I have no idea why anyone is worried, it will pass easy.

if I understand those tweets, it doesn't matter for the bill. The government will just fall because it has lost its majority which by all accounts will probably lead to a government of national union at that point. They aren't ready for elections.

We put lots of money into the IMF. We also contribute a lot of money to the EU. However we too have gone and will still be going through Austerity cuts. That's probably why it's a fairly even split.

The EU doesn't have any stakes in Greece. Majority of Greek debts is now held by Eurozone members with $20 billion in the ECB (carried by Eurozone members) and $20 billion in the IMF, which doesn't matter because they will never give debt relief.

 

[CrunchyB]

I'm living in the Netherlands currently, and I'd reckon even about 70% of the natives, speaking to me in English, refer to the country as Holland.

Holland is the dominant area of the Netherlands (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague), the people there frequently forget about the rest.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I forgot how the IMF is telling the Fed to delay the rate hike, and the Fed gas said developments in Greece could cause a delay in the hike. Kind of puts the IMF in a conflict of interest.

 

[KingSnake]

The news are slow now. Still very little reaction from Germany.

On the funny side, I saw someone using the tag #drahmaqueen on Facebook when commenting about Greek crisis.

 

[norinrad]

Time to change the thread title to Tsipras betrayed Greece

 

[Coriolanus]

Time to change the thread title to Tsipras betrayed Greece

Waiting for the vote to clear the greek parliament, then might as well create another thread. Or wait until it (hopefully) crashes and burns at some other parliament.