Coriolanus
Banned
What you said has very little to do with what he said.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
- Start date
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What you said has very little to do with what he said.
Wait... what the fuck? There actually changing the vat on islands? Talking about killing off tourism and making living on islands less appealing.
I'm glad they are serious about taking down the rich cunt oligarchs though, but that may also be the reason why this may not pass in the Greek parliament; the opposition is too intertwined with them.
I'm glad they are serious about taking down the rich cunt oligarchs though, but that may also be the reason why this may not pass in the Greek parliament; the opposition is too intertwined with them.
Theonik
Member
The Swiss enjoy most of the benefits of being in Europe, while maintaining their sovereignty and not having to get themselves involved in this madness. And I never said Greece should receive free money. I said Greece should find ways of attracting investment capital in a way that is sustainable and does not endanger its people.
Greece does not have the landmass, morphology, or the population to sustain heavy industry in volumes and prices to be competitive in the Eurozone. They need to find better ways to be competitive. Realistically, they need diverse, high value ventures.
Edit: To that end, being in the Eurozone, and/or being bound by EU regulation makes it impossible for Greece to do so.
My words exactly!
Member
It's clear as daylight now, even to the most ardent EU supporter
People spending 1000€ on a trip to the Greek islands today will have to spend 1060€ tomorrow.
I can't really see this raise having much impact on tourism.
I guess the creditors have two choices now:
a) Accept the proposal despite the fact that is likely not strict enough for ESM. (Let's also remember that from their point of view they made huge concessions for that proposal when it was only meant to unlock the remainder of the 2nd bailout program.)
b) Reject the proposal on that basis and look like bullies who rejected even the proposal that the Greek people voted against.
I kinda hope they reject it. Kicking the can down the road can't be the best solution for anyone.
a) Accept the proposal despite the fact that is likely not strict enough for ESM. (Let's also remember that from their point of view they made huge concessions for that proposal when it was only meant to unlock the remainder of the 2nd bailout program.)
b) Reject the proposal on that basis and look like bullies who rejected even the proposal that the Greek people voted against.
I kinda hope they reject it. Kicking the can down the road can't be the best solution for anyone.
Is Scotland seceding again then? (I am joking)
Coriolanus
Banned
Still tallying. Gov lost 10 votes from their base already. It'll still pass, obv.
SymbiantXenos
Member
Bill passes. Big majority lost though. Hard to see how long the coalition will last.
Tallshortman
Member
Tax evasion and corruption seem to have been so entrenched during the last few decades it will be extremely difficult to stamp it out in any sort of short time period.
The EU should send in advisers to help with sorting it out, it's a huge step if Greece is willing to really tackle the issue.
So the past few weeks can be summarized as:
Troika: Last, best offer.
Greece: No.
Troika: It's going to expire.
Greece: Fuck it. REFERENDUM!
***Greece Votes***
Greece: NO TO TROIKA!!!!
Troika: Looks like you guys are dropping the euro. Good luck with the drachma.
Greece: Shit. Um, guys, that last offer was pretty good.
Troika: We need to make some changes because things have gotten worse.
Greece: Whatever you say boss.
...
Greece: DEAR CITIZENS! WE WON!!!
Coriolanus
Banned
Baltic countries deliver us from this madness plz
Kinda wanna see what 16th dimension blackjack theory Ether_Snake will concoct if that happens, tbh
Kinda wanna see what 16th dimension blackjack theory Ether_Snake will concoct if that happens, tbh
This image is going to get so much use in threads over the next year or so.
elrechazado
Banned
Yep, pretty pathetic all that grandstanding and self righteous posts about the will of the people.
http://www.theguardian.com/business...e-tsipras-live#block-55a065b8e4b07fc6a121f9b0
Unleash the pitchforks.
Unleash the pitchforks.
Erebus
Member
Please understand
Coriolanus
Banned
GG
Hyperactivity
Banned
Man, if there isn't some huge debt haircut, I hope EU just flat doesn't accept it with the countries still not sure about Greece's proposal.
Save Greece hardline coutnries
Save Greece hardline coutnries
What would Syriza's masterplan anyway if they could have it their way?
So let's say that most of Greece's debt magically disappears. What happens now? Make new debts? How can we know that Greece would actually use fresh money to get the economy going and fix their administration if they failed to do so in all those years leading up to the crisis? Conversely, if they try to keep government spendings low, how exactly would that differ from current Greece?
In other words, what would their budgetary target be? 5% deficit? 3%? 1%? 0%? Do we know that? Do they have any sort of plan?
So let's say that most of Greece's debt magically disappears. What happens now? Make new debts? How can we know that Greece would actually use fresh money to get the economy going and fix their administration if they failed to do so in all those years leading up to the crisis? Conversely, if they try to keep government spendings low, how exactly would that differ from current Greece?
In other words, what would their budgetary target be? 5% deficit? 3%? 1%? 0%? Do we know that? Do they have any sort of plan?
Nothing is going to save Greece unless they start producing something. Greece basically killed of all its industry to get into the Euro.
Your in Greece and your buying tomatoes from abroad? Really?
I guess the easiest thing would to start exploiting oil or gas.
benjipwns
Banned
I happen to know a lot of rich (even foreign) cunts who bought a second residence on the islands and moved there to avoid taxes. I'm sure they can cope with it ...
Theonik
Member
Greece actually has a lot of oil that they are not exploiting.
They're afraid of the Dutch Disease.
Theonik
Member
For the Aegean it's Turkey they are worried about and the crisis has also delayed any plans into exploring the alleged connections to the middle eastern oil basin. There is also a deposit in the Ionian sea but it's much smaller, it is believed to be a deeper basin connected to the now depleted Albanian oil. But the Ionian sea would also be much more expensive to exploit.
petran79
Banned
Greece, thanks to the morphology, is better suited for a Swiss type of administration with cantons, rather than a centralised government from Athens.
Theonik
Member
I agree, it's also sufficiently small to be able to operate under direct democracy. Maybe one day.
TheLaughingStock
Member
There wouldn't be a specific target as a straitjacket. I'd assume a sharp rise to double digits, then decline to single digits to offset some of the damage from the recession and austerity.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals/
Caipirinha
Member
Trying to figure out if there's any scenario in which Tsipras isn't simple another stuffed head for the neoliberal mantlepiece of capitulating leftists.
VF wrote apiece on the Guardian yesterday that suggested Germany had already decided for a Greek exit by the time they got around to this last round of negotiations.
I guess it's possible that Syriza are betting that if this is the case, they can appear to give Germany what it asks for and then when they are forced out regardless it will be plain as day that Germany is running the show for it's own ends. Nobody on either side of the camp will be able to look at Germany as being sympathetic to the Greek people and the rest of Europe will have a harsh wakeup call that if they should end up in the same boat (which many inevitably will) then they too will have no sympathy for Germany.
If Syriza is betting that a Greece outside the Eurozone will need to have strong allies within it eg. a Podemos Spain and an SF Ireland etc. then I guess it makes sense that they will take this risk to orchestrate a Grexit that benefits anti-austerity int he rest of Europe the most and damages Germany's reputation the most.
That's basically my final chance for Syriza. I have watched the left be given chances only to capitulate like "social democratic" scum for too long, it's time they actually stuck to their guns because until they do they have achieved nothing. This would be a very smart play on their part, although they still run the risk of looking like the tried, but were unable, to capitulate, which within Greece could be very damaging for their rep.
VF wrote apiece on the Guardian yesterday that suggested Germany had already decided for a Greek exit by the time they got around to this last round of negotiations.
I guess it's possible that Syriza are betting that if this is the case, they can appear to give Germany what it asks for and then when they are forced out regardless it will be plain as day that Germany is running the show for it's own ends. Nobody on either side of the camp will be able to look at Germany as being sympathetic to the Greek people and the rest of Europe will have a harsh wakeup call that if they should end up in the same boat (which many inevitably will) then they too will have no sympathy for Germany.
If Syriza is betting that a Greece outside the Eurozone will need to have strong allies within it eg. a Podemos Spain and an SF Ireland etc. then I guess it makes sense that they will take this risk to orchestrate a Grexit that benefits anti-austerity int he rest of Europe the most and damages Germany's reputation the most.
That's basically my final chance for Syriza. I have watched the left be given chances only to capitulate like "social democratic" scum for too long, it's time they actually stuck to their guns because until they do they have achieved nothing. This would be a very smart play on their part, although they still run the risk of looking like the tried, but were unable, to capitulate, which within Greece could be very damaging for their rep.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Depends on the situation. If it's a default and Euro exit, they wouldn't make new debts because the interest rates would probably be punitive, and so would have to continue to run a surplus. However, they'd probably run a break-even surplus rather than having to breach 1.5%, and a large part of the money that previously went towards debt-repayment would go towards the economy.
We can't know they'd actually use that new money well, but in fairness under the status quo we don't even get to take that chance.
More like Syriza is buying time, now is the worst time for an exit. Having met the MEP of a Syriza coalition partner yesterday, they see a Grexit still as very unpredictable in potential outcome.
You are right on that the European Green/Left are planning for a post-grexit plan. It will probably focus on pushing for a Spanish, Portugese and Irish exit too through coalition partners. This 'real crisis' situation might break the power of Brussels just enough to have progress.
Machspeed007
Member
So the whole point to this n-th dimensional game of chees is to destroy Germany's reputation? It ain't gonna happen if that's what you are hoping for..
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This whole n-dimensional chess thing is getting silly. Syriza got cold feet. That's it. There's no plan. Varoufakis is not making a come back.
Is what the Greek government wants you to believe, Mr. Crabopopoulos!!!!!
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
can confirm, am Varoufakis
PJV3
Member
I get that feeling too, just the logistics of sudden exit from the Euro is a nightmare, i hope Greece is printing and warehousing an alternative currency.
I don't believe in the clever mind games stuff, just that the chaos on top of the economic fallout is too much for the country to deal with right now.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This would take months. Stalling an extra week doesn't really help that much in the grand scheme of things.
Caipirinha
Member
Germany's reputation might be fine in the eyes of neoliberal northern Europeans but of course it is, they've bought into the old right wing populist myths that these countries are "spending" their way into recession and that the only solution is whatever the will of the banks happens to be ie. privatisation, austerity etc. The history of the last 10 years and economic realities of the present are by definition not a part of their reasoning, they might as well be considered lost.
What they think of Germany is not really relevant.
It's what the average working person in the countries of Europe that are struggling to maintain their standard of living in 1) the Euro and 2) the post banking bailout, with billions of taxpayer money handed to the banks to underwrite banking losses made through gambling prior to 2008 and the austerity it brought about; the Spanish, Irish, Portuguese etc. sizeable minorities/majorities that are opposed to the latter to the extent that leaving the former is a possibility.
If they elect Syriza-like governments then a post-Grexit Greece would be far less isolated.
France is the key here, their debt % of GDP is absolutely huge and they have a very large and reckless financial speculation industry that continues the activities that caused the last recession to this day, plus a population that hasn't bought into the "race to the bottom" mentality that northern Europe has ie. "those guys in that country have got good pensions/good quality of life/good working hours/good pay therefore their lives need to be made as bad as mine rather than mine improving".
If Germany loses the obedience of France then Germany loses it's current grip over Europe and the Troika too.
Or yes alternatively Syriza's bluff was called and now they are giving up.
PJV3
Member
I wasn't thinking soon, more like in a year's time or something. That's if there is no movement on debt relief/payments.
Take the deal and prepare for shit to hit the fan.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Hats.
Napalm_Frank
Member
Not the same deal, not the same content!
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