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GRRM doesn't sound happy with House of the Dragon

jason10mm

Gold Member
He was, although I'm note sure he sat his laptop and "typed away".
Too soon....

Though i always did wonder how long it took him to craft a sentence. Im assuming every "live" interview with his was pre recorded statements but maybe he took a week to write them himself?
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
:messenger_fire: AND šŸ©ø


Beware the Butterflies

September 4, 2024

Profile Pic

Back in July, I promised you some further thoughts about Blood and Cheeseā€¦ and Maelor the Missingā€¦ after my commentary on the first two episodes of HotD season 2, ā€œA Son for a Sonā€ and ā€œRhaenyra the Cruel.ā€
Those were terrific episodes: well written, well directed, powerfully acted. A great way to kick off the new season. Fans and critics alike seemed to agree. There was only one aspect of the episodes that drew significant criticism: the handling of Blood and Cheese, and the death of Prince Jaehaerys. From the commentary I saw on line, opinion was split there. The readers of FIRE & BLOOD found the sequence underwhelming, a disappointment, watered down from what they were expecting. Viewers who had not read the book had no such problems. Most of them found the sequence a real gut-punch, tragic, horrifying, nightmarish, etc. Some reported being reduced to tears.

I found myself agreeing with both sides.

In my book, Aegon and Helaena have three children, not two. The twins, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, are six years old. They have a younger brother, Maelor, who is two. When Blood and Cheese break in on Helaena and the kids, they tell her they are debt collectors come to exact revenge for the death of Prince Lucerys: a son for a son. As Helaena has two sons, however, they demand that she choose which one should die. She resists and offers her own life instead, but the killers insist it has to be a son. If she does not name one, they will kill all three of the children. To save the life of the twins, Helaena names Maelor. But Blood kills the older boy, Jaehaerys, instead, while Cheese tells little Maelor that his mother wanted him dead. (Whether the boy is old enough to understand that is not at all certain).
Thatā€™s not how it happens on the show. There is no Maelor in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, only the twins (both of whom look younger than six, but I am no sure judge of childrenā€™s ages, so I canā€™t be sure how old they are supposed to be). Blood canā€™t seem to tell the twins apart, so Helaena is asked to reveal which one is the boy. (You would think a glance up his PJs would reveal that, without involving the mother). Instead of offering her own life to save the kids, Helaena offers them a necklace. Blood and Cheese are not tempted. Blood saws Prince Jaehaerysā€™s head off. We are spared the sight of that; a sound effect suffices. (In the book, he lops the head off with a sword).

It is a bloody, brutal scene, no doubt. How not? An innocent child is being butchered in front of his mother.

I still believe the scene in the book is stronger. The readers have the right of that. The two killers are crueler in the book. I thought the actors who played the killers on the show were excellentā€¦ but the characters are crueler, harder, and more frightening in FIRE & BLOOD. In the show, Blood is a gold cloak. In the book, he is a former gold cloak, stripped of his office for beating a woman to death. Book Blood is the sort of man who might think making a woman choose which of her sons should die is amusing, especially when they double down on the wanton cruelty by murdering the boy she tries to save. Book Cheese is worse too; he does not kick a dog, true, but he does not have a dog, and heā€™s the one who tells Maelor that his mom wants him head. I would also suggest that Helaena shows more courage, more strength in the book, by offering her own own life to save her son. Offering a piece of jewelry is just not the same.

As I saw it, the ā€œSophieā€™s Choiceā€ aspect was the strongest part of the sequence, the darkest, the most visceral. I hated to lose that. And judging from the comments on line, most of the fans seemed to agree.
When Ryan Condal first told me what he meant to do, ages ago (back in 2022, might be) I argued against it, for all these reasons. I did not argue long, or with much heat, however. The change weakened the sequence, I felt, but only a bit. And Ryan had what seemed to be practical reasons for it; they did not want to deal with casting another child, especially a two-year old toddler. Kids that young will inevitably slow down production, and there would be budget implications. Budget was already an issue on HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, it made sense to save money wherever we could. Moreover, Ryan assured me that we were not losing Prince Maelor, simply postponing him. Queen Helaena could still give birth to him in season three, presumably after getting with child late in season two. That made sense to me, so I withdrew my objections and acquiesced to the change.

I still love the episode, and the Blood and Cheese sequence overall. Losing the ā€œHelaenaā€™s Choiceā€ beat did weaken the scene, but not to any great degree. Only the book readers would even notice its absence; viewers who had never read FIRE & BLOOD would still find the scenes heart-rending. Maelor did not actually DO anything in the scene, after all. How could he? He was only two years old.
There is another aspect to the removal of the young princeling, however.

Those of you who hate spoilers should STOP READING HERE. Spoilers will follow, at least for the readers among you. If you have never read FIRE & BLOOD, maybe it does not matter, because all I am going to ā€œspoilā€ here are things that happen in the book that may NEVER happen on the series. Starting with Maelor himself.

Sometime between the initial decision to remove Maelor, a big change was made. The princeā€™s birth was no longer just going to be pushed back to season 3. He was never going to be born at all. The younger son of Aegon and Helaena would never appear.

Untitled.jpg


Most of you know about the Butterfly Effect, I assume.

Yes, there was a movie with that title a few years back. Itā€™s a familiar concept in chaos theory as well. But most science fiction fans were first exposed to the idea in Ray Bradburyā€™s classic time travel story, ā€œA Sound of Thunder,ā€ wherein a time traveler from the present panics and crushes a butterfly while hunting a T-Rex. When he returns to his own time, he discovers that the world has changed in huge and frightening ways. One dead butterfly has rewritten history. The lesson being that change begets change, and even small and seemingly insignificant alterations to a timeline ā€” or a story ā€” can have a profound effect on all that follows.

Maelor is a two year old toddler in FIRE & BLOOD, but like our butterfly he has an impact on the story all out of proportion to his size. The readers among you may recall that when it appears that Rhaenyra and her blacks are about to capture Kingā€™s Landing, Queen Alicent becomes concerned for the safety of Helaenaā€™s remaining children, and takes steps to save them by smuggling them out of the city. The task is given is two knights of the Kingsguard. Ser Willis Fell is commanded to deliver Princess Jaehaera to the Baratheons at Stormā€™s End, while Maelor is given over to Ser Rickard Thorne to be escorted across the Mander to the protection of the Hightower army on its way to Kingā€™s Landing.

Willis Fell delivers Jaehaera safely to the Baratheons at Stormā€™s End, but Ser Rickard fares less well. He and Maelor get as far as Bitterbridge, where he is revealed as a Kingsuard in a tavern called the Hogs Head. Once discovered, Ser Rickard fights bravely to protect his young charge and bring him to safety, but he does not even make it across the bridge before some crossbows bring him down, Prince Maelor is torn from his arms.. and then, sadly, ripped to pieces by the mob fighting over the boy and the huge reward that Rhaenyra has offered for his capture and return.
Will any of that appear on the show? Maybeā€¦ but I donā€™t see how. The butterflies would seem to prohibit it. You could perhaps make Ser Rickardā€™s ward be Jaehaera instead of Maelor, but Jaehaera canā€™t be killed, she has a huge role to play as Aegonā€™s next heir. Could maybe make Maelor a newborn instead of a two year old, but that would scramble up the timeline, which is a bit of a mess already. I have no idea what Ryan has planned ā€” if indeed he has planned anything ā€” but given Maelorā€™s absence from episode 2, the simplest way to proceed would be just to drop him entirely, lose the bit where Alicent tries to send the kids to safety, drop Rickard Thorne or send him with Willis Fell so Jaehaera has two guards.

From what I know, that seems to be what Ryan is doing here. Itā€™s simplest, yes, and may make sense in terms of budgets and shooting schedules. But simpler is not better. The Bitterbridge scene has tension, suspense, action, bloodshed, a bit of heroism and a lot of tragedy. Rickard Thorne is a tertiary character at best, most viewers (as opposed to readers) will never know he is gone, since they never knew him at allā€¦ but I rather liked giving him his brief moment of heroism, a taste of the courage and loyalty of the Kingsguard, regardless of whether they are black or green.
The butterflies are not done with us yet, however. In the book, when word of Prince Maelorā€™s death and the grisly manner of his passing (pp. 505) reaches the Red Keep, that proves to be the thing that drives Queen Helaena to suicide. She could barely stand to look at Maelor, knowing that she chose him to die in the ā€œSophieā€™s Choiceā€ sceneā€¦ and now he is dead in truth, her words having come true. The grief and guilt are too much for her to bear.

In Ryanā€™s outline for season 3, Helaena still kills herselfā€¦ for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror, no triggering event to overwhelm the fragile young queen.
And the final butterfly follows soon thereafter.

Queen Helaena, a sweet and gentle soul, is much beloved by the smallfolk of Kingā€™s Landing. Rhaenyra was not, so when rumors began to arise that Helaena did not kill herself, but rather was murdered at Rhaenyraā€™s command, the commons are quick to believe them. ā€œThat night Kingā€™s Landing rose in bloody riot,ā€ I wrote on p. 506 of FIRE & BLOOD. It is the beginning of the end for Rhaenyraā€™s rule over the city, ultimately leading to the Storming of the Dragonpit and the rise of the Shepherdā€™s mob that drives Rhaenyra to flee the city and return to Dragonstoneā€¦ and her death.
Maelor by himself means little. He is a small child, does not have a line of dialogue, does nothing of consequence but dieā€¦ but where and when and how, that does matter. Losing Maelor weakened the end of the Blood and Cheese sequence, but it also cost us the Bitterbridge scene with all its horror and heroism, it undercut the motivation for Helaenaā€™s suicide, and that in turn sent thousands into the streets and alleys, screaming for justice for their ā€œmurderedā€ queen. None of that is essential, I supposeā€¦ but all of it does serve a purpose, it all helps to tie the story lines together, so one thing follows another in a logical and convincing manner.

What will we offer the fans instead, once weā€™ve killed these butterflies? I have no idea. I do not recall that Ryan and I ever discussed this, back when he first told me they were pushing back on Aegonā€™s second son. Maelor himself is not essentialā€¦ but if losing him means we also lose Bitterbridge, Helaenaā€™s suicide, and the riots, wellā€¦ thatā€™s a considerable loss.
And there are larger and more toxic butterflies to come, if HOUSE OF THE DRAGON goes ahead with some of the changes being contemplated for seasons 3 and 4ā€¦
GRRM
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Bro should just turn ASOIAF into an anime at this point. He's never going to get the respect that he deserves in translating his vision onto the screen from live action producers.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Huh, I'm guessing he is either trying to shame HBO into letting him be more involved and sideline Condal (I'd agree with this) or he is totally out and these are his parting shots.

But both are collaborating for the Dunk and Egg series, sorta maybe, since Condal originally pitched D&E to HBO. But from just a writing standpoint GRRM is more involved with D&E so we'll see if he can deliver (which we know he can since he has done it many times previously).
 

DKehoe

Member
Wild that heā€™s happy to air creative disputes like this but he kept quiet when D&D massacred his (and their) golden goose. Wonder if he was under a NDA for GoT?
I think he did. I remember him doing a similar thing with that where he talked about the butterfly effect impact on changes they made, that he didnā€™t agree with those choices and had told them so.
 

Banjo64

cumsessed
I think he did. I remember him doing a similar thing with that where he talked about the butterfly effect impact on changes they made, that he didnā€™t agree with those choices and had told them so.
I missed that to be fair. Fair enough then, good on him. Shame he couldnā€™t retain the final say on creative decisions, Iā€™m fearing for S3&4 now.
 

bitbydeath

Member
They had the same issues by not bringing Lady Stoneheart in GoT. House of Dragon has bigger issues than a missing character though.
 
I watched a video on this as I didn't see it earlier.

They've COMPLETELY ruined this show LMAO.

GRRM went full Quincy Jones fuck it mode. When he posted about their S3 outline that is amazing.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
I watched a video on this as I didn't see it earlier.

They've COMPLETELY ruined this show LMAO.

GRRM went full Quincy Jones fuck it mode. When he posted about their S3 outline that is amazing.
To be fair he is posting stuff that MUST happen if they want to stick anywhere near the source material. The probable "end" to this show was talked about on a scene from game of thrones.

I think his main complaint is the lack of what he, as a loooooong time tv writer, recognized as hot fire scenes that any competent writer would WANT in their show. The differences in blood and cheese are a perfect example. GRRM serves up scenes that should be 1:1 translated to screen and when they are not, the screen version is decidedly inferior. I think he DETESTS condal thinking he can "rewrite" the material.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Dude posted spoilers about season 3

Obviously HBO/MAX isnt happy, or anyone that works in the show

Lots of respect for him, tho. True bombs everywhere. I agree with every single line.

Burned his bridges with MAX/HBO hard with this
He spoiled nothing, it's all in a book already published.

If anything, he just gave Condal ground cover to change the events with a "well, grrm kinda told the audience" excuse.

But really, is ANYONE reading Grrms blog who hasn't read at least a complete synopsis of this event? Now if reporters "spoil" it, we'll, they could do that already.
 

Hugare

Member
He spoiled nothing, it's all in a book already published.

If anything, he just gave Condal ground cover to change the events with a "well, grrm kinda told the audience" excuse.

But really, is ANYONE reading Grrms blog who hasn't read at least a complete synopsis of this event? Now if reporters "spoil" it, we'll, they could do that already.
The show is clearly changing stuff from the books, otherwise he woundnt have written this blog post

So telling people what is in fact going to show up in the series is a show spoiler
 
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Lord Panda

The Sea is Always Right
The show is clearly changing stuff from the books, otherwise he woundnt have written this blog post

So telling people what is in fact going to show up in the series is a show spoiler

He did warn readers that it was spoiler territory ahead ...

Also itā€™s been taken down, someoneā€™s not happy.

He definitely articulated what many of us were thinking about season 2 very well and then some. GRRM seems both pissed and pragmatic about the future direction of season 3. It ties back to his earlier blog where he criticised Hollywood writers and creatives for being self-indulgent and out of touch, though he stopped short of naming anyone directly: https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2024/05/24/the-adaptation-tango/

No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and ā€œimproveā€ on it. ā€œThe book is the book, the film is the film,ā€ they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own.

They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse.

Not much of a leap to assume that Condal might have partly inspired that blog post.
 

Raven117

Member
Watched the first season, thought hey, thatā€™s pretty good.

Read books 2 and 3. Realized I hate his style and quite watching both the show and reading the books. Itā€™s just unedited meandering writing.

Seems like I made the right call not to be invested in this at all.

Why this caught on while other fantasy didnā€™t will remain a mystery to me
 

Valonquar

Member
Him wasting time writing out complaints about the prequel show not following his books after the original show also didn't follow his books feels like the last straw for me. Fuck him and his books. He'll never finish them, and he knows it.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I hate how these no good tv writers think they can rewrite his stuff. This guy has created legendary stories. DONT FUCKING REWRITE HIM. Listen to the mother fucker. he knows wtf hes doing.

I hated the Blood and Cheese scene. it didnt make much sense to me. same goes for several other scenes in the show. asked my friend to send me some screenshots of the book and i instantly liked the way George wrote it despite them being written like a history book.

I cant believe HBO would do this after making the same mistakes with Game of Thrones. Fuck HBO. Suck a dick. You have one of the greatest writers of all time at your disposal and you are letting hacks like Condal and D&D ruin his stories.
 

BadBurger

Many ā€œWhelpsā€! Handle It!
I hate how these no good tv writers think they can rewrite his stuff. This guy has created legendary stories. DONT FUCKING REWRITE HIM. Listen to the mother fucker. he knows wtf hes doing.

I hated the Blood and Cheese scene. it didnt make much sense to me. same goes for several other scenes in the show. asked my friend to send me some screenshots of the book and i instantly liked the way George wrote it despite them being written like a history book.

I cant believe HBO would do this after making the same mistakes with Game of Thrones. Fuck HBO. Suck a dick. You have one of the greatest writers of all time at your disposal and you are letting hacks like Condal and D&D ruin his stories.

The worst part is watching Condal and the like do interviews like they're top guns. While hopeful college-aged writers could do far better work.

Hollywood I guess.
 

Lord Panda

The Sea is Always Right
I hate how these no good tv writers think they can rewrite his stuff. This guy has created legendary stories. DONT FUCKING REWRITE HIM. Listen to the mother fucker. he knows wtf hes doing.

I hated the Blood and Cheese scene. it didnt make much sense to me. same goes for several other scenes in the show. asked my friend to send me some screenshots of the book and i instantly liked the way George wrote it despite them being written like a history book.

I cant believe HBO would do this after making the same mistakes with Game of Thrones. Fuck HBO. Suck a dick. You have one of the greatest writers of all time at your disposal and you are letting hacks like Condal and D&D ruin his stories.

How dare you call Condal a hack. He did the screenplays for these masterpieces :)

image.jpg


images


He also did the Colony series which was I didn't mind too much.
 

Trilobit

Member
:messenger_fire: AND šŸ©ø


Beware the Butterflies

September 4, 2024

Profile Pic

Back in July, I promised you some further thoughts about Blood and Cheeseā€¦ and Maelor the Missingā€¦ after my commentary on the first two episodes of HotD season 2, ā€œA Son for a Sonā€ and ā€œRhaenyra the Cruel.ā€
Those were terrific episodes: well written, well directed, powerfully acted. A great way to kick off the new season. Fans and critics alike seemed to agree. There was only one aspect of the episodes that drew significant criticism: the handling of Blood and Cheese, and the death of Prince Jaehaerys. From the commentary I saw on line, opinion was split there. The readers of FIRE & BLOOD found the sequence underwhelming, a disappointment, watered down from what they were expecting. Viewers who had not read the book had no such problems. Most of them found the sequence a real gut-punch, tragic, horrifying, nightmarish, etc. Some reported being reduced to tears.

I found myself agreeing with both sides.

In my book, Aegon and Helaena have three children, not two. The twins, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, are six years old. They have a younger brother, Maelor, who is two. When Blood and Cheese break in on Helaena and the kids, they tell her they are debt collectors come to exact revenge for the death of Prince Lucerys: a son for a son. As Helaena has two sons, however, they demand that she choose which one should die. She resists and offers her own life instead, but the killers insist it has to be a son. If she does not name one, they will kill all three of the children. To save the life of the twins, Helaena names Maelor. But Blood kills the older boy, Jaehaerys, instead, while Cheese tells little Maelor that his mother wanted him dead. (Whether the boy is old enough to understand that is not at all certain).
Thatā€™s not how it happens on the show. There is no Maelor in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, only the twins (both of whom look younger than six, but I am no sure judge of childrenā€™s ages, so I canā€™t be sure how old they are supposed to be). Blood canā€™t seem to tell the twins apart, so Helaena is asked to reveal which one is the boy. (You would think a glance up his PJs would reveal that, without involving the mother). Instead of offering her own life to save the kids, Helaena offers them a necklace. Blood and Cheese are not tempted. Blood saws Prince Jaehaerysā€™s head off. We are spared the sight of that; a sound effect suffices. (In the book, he lops the head off with a sword).

It is a bloody, brutal scene, no doubt. How not? An innocent child is being butchered in front of his mother.

I still believe the scene in the book is stronger. The readers have the right of that. The two killers are crueler in the book. I thought the actors who played the killers on the show were excellentā€¦ but the characters are crueler, harder, and more frightening in FIRE & BLOOD. In the show, Blood is a gold cloak. In the book, he is a former gold cloak, stripped of his office for beating a woman to death. Book Blood is the sort of man who might think making a woman choose which of her sons should die is amusing, especially when they double down on the wanton cruelty by murdering the boy she tries to save. Book Cheese is worse too; he does not kick a dog, true, but he does not have a dog, and heā€™s the one who tells Maelor that his mom wants him head. I would also suggest that Helaena shows more courage, more strength in the book, by offering her own own life to save her son. Offering a piece of jewelry is just not the same.

As I saw it, the ā€œSophieā€™s Choiceā€ aspect was the strongest part of the sequence, the darkest, the most visceral. I hated to lose that. And judging from the comments on line, most of the fans seemed to agree.
When Ryan Condal first told me what he meant to do, ages ago (back in 2022, might be) I argued against it, for all these reasons. I did not argue long, or with much heat, however. The change weakened the sequence, I felt, but only a bit. And Ryan had what seemed to be practical reasons for it; they did not want to deal with casting another child, especially a two-year old toddler. Kids that young will inevitably slow down production, and there would be budget implications. Budget was already an issue on HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, it made sense to save money wherever we could. Moreover, Ryan assured me that we were not losing Prince Maelor, simply postponing him. Queen Helaena could still give birth to him in season three, presumably after getting with child late in season two. That made sense to me, so I withdrew my objections and acquiesced to the change.

I still love the episode, and the Blood and Cheese sequence overall. Losing the ā€œHelaenaā€™s Choiceā€ beat did weaken the scene, but not to any great degree. Only the book readers would even notice its absence; viewers who had never read FIRE & BLOOD would still find the scenes heart-rending. Maelor did not actually DO anything in the scene, after all. How could he? He was only two years old.
There is another aspect to the removal of the young princeling, however.

Those of you who hate spoilers should STOP READING HERE. Spoilers will follow, at least for the readers among you. If you have never read FIRE & BLOOD, maybe it does not matter, because all I am going to ā€œspoilā€ here are things that happen in the book that may NEVER happen on the series. Starting with Maelor himself.

Sometime between the initial decision to remove Maelor, a big change was made. The princeā€™s birth was no longer just going to be pushed back to season 3. He was never going to be born at all. The younger son of Aegon and Helaena would never appear.

Untitled.jpg


Most of you know about the Butterfly Effect, I assume.

Yes, there was a movie with that title a few years back. Itā€™s a familiar concept in chaos theory as well. But most science fiction fans were first exposed to the idea in Ray Bradburyā€™s classic time travel story, ā€œA Sound of Thunder,ā€ wherein a time traveler from the present panics and crushes a butterfly while hunting a T-Rex. When he returns to his own time, he discovers that the world has changed in huge and frightening ways. One dead butterfly has rewritten history. The lesson being that change begets change, and even small and seemingly insignificant alterations to a timeline ā€” or a story ā€” can have a profound effect on all that follows.

Maelor is a two year old toddler in FIRE & BLOOD, but like our butterfly he has an impact on the story all out of proportion to his size. The readers among you may recall that when it appears that Rhaenyra and her blacks are about to capture Kingā€™s Landing, Queen Alicent becomes concerned for the safety of Helaenaā€™s remaining children, and takes steps to save them by smuggling them out of the city. The task is given is two knights of the Kingsguard. Ser Willis Fell is commanded to deliver Princess Jaehaera to the Baratheons at Stormā€™s End, while Maelor is given over to Ser Rickard Thorne to be escorted across the Mander to the protection of the Hightower army on its way to Kingā€™s Landing.

Willis Fell delivers Jaehaera safely to the Baratheons at Stormā€™s End, but Ser Rickard fares less well. He and Maelor get as far as Bitterbridge, where he is revealed as a Kingsuard in a tavern called the Hogs Head. Once discovered, Ser Rickard fights bravely to protect his young charge and bring him to safety, but he does not even make it across the bridge before some crossbows bring him down, Prince Maelor is torn from his arms.. and then, sadly, ripped to pieces by the mob fighting over the boy and the huge reward that Rhaenyra has offered for his capture and return.
Will any of that appear on the show? Maybeā€¦ but I donā€™t see how. The butterflies would seem to prohibit it. You could perhaps make Ser Rickardā€™s ward be Jaehaera instead of Maelor, but Jaehaera canā€™t be killed, she has a huge role to play as Aegonā€™s next heir. Could maybe make Maelor a newborn instead of a two year old, but that would scramble up the timeline, which is a bit of a mess already. I have no idea what Ryan has planned ā€” if indeed he has planned anything ā€” but given Maelorā€™s absence from episode 2, the simplest way to proceed would be just to drop him entirely, lose the bit where Alicent tries to send the kids to safety, drop Rickard Thorne or send him with Willis Fell so Jaehaera has two guards.

From what I know, that seems to be what Ryan is doing here. Itā€™s simplest, yes, and may make sense in terms of budgets and shooting schedules. But simpler is not better. The Bitterbridge scene has tension, suspense, action, bloodshed, a bit of heroism and a lot of tragedy. Rickard Thorne is a tertiary character at best, most viewers (as opposed to readers) will never know he is gone, since they never knew him at allā€¦ but I rather liked giving him his brief moment of heroism, a taste of the courage and loyalty of the Kingsguard, regardless of whether they are black or green.
The butterflies are not done with us yet, however. In the book, when word of Prince Maelorā€™s death and the grisly manner of his passing (pp. 505) reaches the Red Keep, that proves to be the thing that drives Queen Helaena to suicide. She could barely stand to look at Maelor, knowing that she chose him to die in the ā€œSophieā€™s Choiceā€ sceneā€¦ and now he is dead in truth, her words having come true. The grief and guilt are too much for her to bear.

In Ryanā€™s outline for season 3, Helaena still kills herselfā€¦ for no particular reason. There is no fresh horror, no triggering event to overwhelm the fragile young queen.
And the final butterfly follows soon thereafter.

Queen Helaena, a sweet and gentle soul, is much beloved by the smallfolk of Kingā€™s Landing. Rhaenyra was not, so when rumors began to arise that Helaena did not kill herself, but rather was murdered at Rhaenyraā€™s command, the commons are quick to believe them. ā€œThat night Kingā€™s Landing rose in bloody riot,ā€ I wrote on p. 506 of FIRE & BLOOD. It is the beginning of the end for Rhaenyraā€™s rule over the city, ultimately leading to the Storming of the Dragonpit and the rise of the Shepherdā€™s mob that drives Rhaenyra to flee the city and return to Dragonstoneā€¦ and her death.
Maelor by himself means little. He is a small child, does not have a line of dialogue, does nothing of consequence but dieā€¦ but where and when and how, that does matter. Losing Maelor weakened the end of the Blood and Cheese sequence, but it also cost us the Bitterbridge scene with all its horror and heroism, it undercut the motivation for Helaenaā€™s suicide, and that in turn sent thousands into the streets and alleys, screaming for justice for their ā€œmurderedā€ queen. None of that is essential, I supposeā€¦ but all of it does serve a purpose, it all helps to tie the story lines together, so one thing follows another in a logical and convincing manner.

What will we offer the fans instead, once weā€™ve killed these butterflies? I have no idea. I do not recall that Ryan and I ever discussed this, back when he first told me they were pushing back on Aegonā€™s second son. Maelor himself is not essentialā€¦ but if losing him means we also lose Bitterbridge, Helaenaā€™s suicide, and the riots, wellā€¦ thatā€™s a considerable loss.
And there are larger and more toxic butterflies to come, if HOUSE OF THE DRAGON goes ahead with some of the changes being contemplated for seasons 3 and 4ā€¦
GRRM

Man, it must be quite infuriating seeing less talented people having a go at your source material.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
I dunno, Condal does understand story and character, he's just not salacious enough for GRRMs work and since he thinks he's doing the Lords Work with the heavy female focus there is no playfulness or much wit either.
 

DrFigs

Member
Those are just his thoughts on the first few episodes. Season 2 completely falls apart, after like episode 4. I would've loved to know his thoughts.
 
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