I agree that actually being allowed to debate is healthy, but it sounds like there's a lot of really conflicting objectives that keeps changing what the developers are working on at any moment. It's good that they're finding what works the best for them and their fans, but as someone who understands release scheduling, this whole thing has to have been a nightmare. It just seems like a lot of shifting gears, and, while I could be imagining it, it sounds like a relative degree of frustration with the setup in developer interviews.
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Guild Wars 2 |OT3| Two Week Updates, One Box, Zero Subscriptions
- Thread starter Retro
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I agree that actually being allowed to debate is healthy, but it sounds like there's a lot of really conflicting objectives that keeps changing what the developers are working on at any moment. It's good that they're finding what works the best for them and their fans, but as someone who understands release scheduling, this whole thing has to have been a nightmare. It just seems like a lot of shifting gears, and, while I could be imagining it, it sounds like a relative degree of frustration with the setup in developer interviews.
If there were no debate or questioning of decisions made, you would end up with Japan's version of game development which is nothing but yes men agreeing with everything their bosses say and we'd have another FFXIV 1.0 on our hands.
I'm not quite sure I made myself clear in what I meant. It's not so much the internal debate that I have a problem with as it sounds like there's a lack of clear direction. It just never seems like they're sure what to do with living story, and they're constantly changing things due to negative feedback and other metrics. I think Retro worded how I view the devs, which is "eager but frustrated".
I hope I'm wrong though. The devs seem like hard working people with great intentions, so I hope all the transitions have been as smooth as possible and out of a positive, open debate, and not constant, fearful mandates.
I hope I'm wrong though. The devs seem like hard working people with great intentions, so I hope all the transitions have been as smooth as possible and out of a positive, open debate, and not constant, fearful mandates.
They went from 5 years of creating the game, then restructured the entire company to make 1 month updates, them restructured the company a couple months later to deliver 2 week updates, and are now switching things up a bit to put out 4 story updates - 1 big feature update and repeat. The way to look at this is not that its hectic, but that theyre so willing to make these changes because they care enough to do so. If they didn't care about innovating, they could have very easily put out an update once every quarter. Instead they started right out the gate with 1 month updates which was fast and then 2 week updates is just unparalleled. While it may seem like theyre all over the place, I think its more because they have so many ideas and projects that it might seem directionless to us but in reality its all part of a master plan that is going through the motions. Be glad they havent become complacent, that theyre willing to scrap stuff because it wasnt working or not good enough versus saying screw it were moving along.
Oh, they absolutely have ambition, that was clear from the start of development. I know that they're trying to do something different while also finding something that people like. It just sounds insanely stressful when it hasn't worked out the way they've wanted it to.
I don't think that would actually be the case because we're all playing GW2 for a reason and considering no other MMO offers what it does, we would have all just quit the genre.
Oh yeah I'm sure it's frustrating to put the time into ideas that you planned for so long only to find out they don't work out as well as you'd hoped. I'm just glad they're willing to rework or scrap something entirely when it doesn't turn out how they'd planned.
I don't think it's shifting gears so much as reacting to player reactions and behavior. For example, they've gotten the two-week cadence up and running, but along the way they've found out that players completely ignore the story when there's a major feature attached to an update. Thus, their plan now is to have a series of story-oriented updates (adding in things like new zones / dungeons / etc. where appropriate) and then release an update with a ton of features to play with while the story is between 'seasons'.
Well, what I meant by that is that they have all of these things they want to do that they can't get done fast enough, even with 350+ people working at it. Or they can't reveal things yet, whether because they're not ready, they don't want to distract from something else, or they can't talk about because people take everything as promises.
The last time I heard about any kind of internal hand-wringing was over SAB's second update, where everyone really meant well but it ended up going badly.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Vigilant Walrus
Member
We also need to understand that nobody has done it the way they are doing it with this game. It's different from GW1. I didn't expect them not to stumble along the way.
Scarlett Briar is a mess that could have been avoided with better storytelling, but as far as what we've gotten for our dollar per month. It more than lives up to what I expected of them to provide for free.
I've also found many of the cash shop services fair.
Another game I like despite it's flaws is SWTOR, and that's a game that completely misunderstood itself. It's tragic because the games developers don't even realize that while it might have failed as an immersive community-binding MMO, it's actually a unique multiplayer RPG game that has a really cool story, really fun appeal, and good basic MMO tropes.
Then they go ahead and focus on everything other than it's current strengths(space pvp only). It's really bizarre.
With GW2 we have troubles in all areas - WvW, Dungeons, sPvP and open world, but the problems are different.
Dungeons are problematic because different player styles and groups can't find common ground on what is the best overall difficulty, reward vs risk, and time investment.
WvW is hindered by technology, overflow, lag and uneven matchups. sPvP and open world is about incentive and creating a return-to-the-same-content-carrot on a stick.
But they need to do all these things while continuing their core principles; not alinate the time restrained people that GW has always been a champion of, not alinate the skill>time investment angle, not alinate the population in between normal/hardcore/epic modes of various gameplay.
Scarlett Briar is a mess that could have been avoided with better storytelling, but as far as what we've gotten for our dollar per month. It more than lives up to what I expected of them to provide for free.
I've also found many of the cash shop services fair.
Another game I like despite it's flaws is SWTOR, and that's a game that completely misunderstood itself. It's tragic because the games developers don't even realize that while it might have failed as an immersive community-binding MMO, it's actually a unique multiplayer RPG game that has a really cool story, really fun appeal, and good basic MMO tropes.
Then they go ahead and focus on everything other than it's current strengths(space pvp only). It's really bizarre.
With GW2 we have troubles in all areas - WvW, Dungeons, sPvP and open world, but the problems are different.
Dungeons are problematic because different player styles and groups can't find common ground on what is the best overall difficulty, reward vs risk, and time investment.
WvW is hindered by technology, overflow, lag and uneven matchups. sPvP and open world is about incentive and creating a return-to-the-same-content-carrot on a stick.
But they need to do all these things while continuing their core principles; not alinate the time restrained people that GW has always been a champion of, not alinate the skill>time investment angle, not alinate the population in between normal/hardcore/epic modes of various gameplay.
shysaursoft
Member
You know when GW2 has no trouble in its design? When running with [GAF]. *truth*
Or when I run dungeons with my friends. Then they're totally fun. Here's a funny anecdote:
A few weekends again, my usual Sunday group of five (m'self and four friends) was down a member due to scheduling conflicts. We wanted to do Twilight Arbor paths 1 and 2, to finish it up for some of us (we'd all done the new Path 3 already, successfully mind you).
We pugged a fifth, and I forgot to put 'no skip no speedrun no fucking glitching through' in the LFG desc. So someone joined, we started down the path, and they quit after the first pull. Okay fine, that was on me. I put a new LFG list up, and said 'no skip' and someone joined and we started down the path.
After a while, they said 'oh.. we're actually playing the dungeon?' and I thought crap, someone didn't read the LFG desc. But they said 'that's cool' and stuck with us anyway. After a while, they even admitted they were having fun, since 'this is the first time I've actually played this dungeon normally'. They were having fun with the encounter designs, and we were synergizing nicely. They were very, very knowledgeable with the dungeon, having run it many, many times - but never once actually *playing* through it properly.
We finished path 1 without much effort, and had a blast. They thanked us for the good run.
For path 2, we decided to be silly and four-person it. We succeeded, much to our surprise.
I always thought the dungeons were all designed very well - just that people keep trying to play them *their* way, always stacking, always LoS pulling.
On that note, did they change Kohler in AC? We tried him doing Path 3 and where we never had problems with him before, now suddenly he kept summoning Necros and Warriors all the time where he is, making him impossible.
Or when I run dungeons with my friends. Then they're totally fun. Here's a funny anecdote:
A few weekends again, my usual Sunday group of five (m'self and four friends) was down a member due to scheduling conflicts. We wanted to do Twilight Arbor paths 1 and 2, to finish it up for some of us (we'd all done the new Path 3 already, successfully mind you).
We pugged a fifth, and I forgot to put 'no skip no speedrun no fucking glitching through' in the LFG desc. So someone joined, we started down the path, and they quit after the first pull. Okay fine, that was on me. I put a new LFG list up, and said 'no skip' and someone joined and we started down the path.
After a while, they said 'oh.. we're actually playing the dungeon?' and I thought crap, someone didn't read the LFG desc. But they said 'that's cool' and stuck with us anyway. After a while, they even admitted they were having fun, since 'this is the first time I've actually played this dungeon normally'. They were having fun with the encounter designs, and we were synergizing nicely. They were very, very knowledgeable with the dungeon, having run it many, many times - but never once actually *playing* through it properly.
We finished path 1 without much effort, and had a blast. They thanked us for the good run.
For path 2, we decided to be silly and four-person it. We succeeded, much to our surprise.
I always thought the dungeons were all designed very well - just that people keep trying to play them *their* way, always stacking, always LoS pulling.
On that note, did they change Kohler in AC? We tried him doing Path 3 and where we never had problems with him before, now suddenly he kept summoning Necros and Warriors all the time where he is, making him impossible.
The content split from story updates is interesting. I guess they have data backing it up but I would really prefer not waiting 4 months for balance fixes or needed features.
I really want a house from horizontal progression that I can hang up items in and stuff. Wouldn't mind a crafting setup and bank on very fast load times and short running distances either.
I really want a house from horizontal progression that I can hang up items in and stuff. Wouldn't mind a crafting setup and bank on very fast load times and short running distances either.
You underestimate the hooks of MMOs. Not saying that's what's keeping all of us here but I'm sure its part of it.
We already wait 4+ months for most meaningful balance changes, so there isn't much change in that.
I'm still waiting for the next balance preview blog post to go up/
shysaursoft
Member
After having played the (expertly refined) cocaine that is WoW (which I dropped after a year cold turkey once I'd seen all there was to see, easy), GW2 is like a beer. Of course some people can be alcoholics - it happens in all games, just look at how many people get addicted to Candy Crush and spend thousands of dollars - but I think you might be overstating the skinnerbox effect in GW2. It's barely even there, and you don't have the monthly sub guilt trip either.
People who are prone to getting addicted to condition-response loops are going to get addicted no matter what. These days, I think LoL beats out MMOs in that regard just by its nature of being a system in which the core loop involves you winning by screwing the other guy over. It's the perfect system for today's society.
Truthfact: Whenever I end up having to PUG and they do that weird stacking shit, it always fails and they're always the first to go down. I think it's because they're used to just getting carried through the dungeon and go through the motions each time. They may be perfectly adequate in terms of build and gear, but in terms of skill and tactics they're just coasting along doing what everyone else does.
The worst part; they just go through the motions and expect you to know this bizarre tactic that they've always seen done, so they stand there like a chud but don't say anything. Even when you say "Hey, so and so, come over here", all you get is "Stack" as a response.
They changed him because you could kite him down and fight him and his adds alone. Now he won't take the bait, and he summons adds the entire fight. You just have to stay sharp about dealing with the Necros, Eles and Rangers (in that order). Definitely not a breeze, but he does his pull less now, at least.
He doesn't speak for all of us but "the hooks of MMOs" do absolutely nothing at all for me; I couldn't mean this more literally. GW2 is the first MMO I've "maxed" a single character in (GW not actually being one), and in fact I have 3, with a 4th at level 74. My experience is a solitary anecdote to be sure- however, I'm not only a player but invested enough in the game to lead this fine guild. So it is a worthy point to my eyes.
Kholer's more fun to fight now. Necros should be focused down immediately; rangers, eles, and monks are a pain. Warriors et al are ignorable. As long as everyone dodges the pull or it's otherwise mitigated (feedback/other reflect, invuln, aegis, etc), he is quite far from impossible. I'd love to hunt him with you.
MMOs are one of the few genres that doesn't actually have to be good to get people addicted. A lot of people just keep playing out of habit and based on the fact they've already made a huge investment into their character.
hockeypuck
Member
Thanks for the replies, I'll probably won't upgrade my GPU as the fps drops for this game likely won't go away with the current popular gaming CPU choices.
Honestly sounds kind of harrowing. It's hard to imagine, but if I ever find myself in this trap I hope someone will intervene and keep me from going too far with it. Playing a game "out of habit" is not something I ever want to experience.
shysaursoft
Member
It's funny, I heard that exact same argument made today about the multiplayer FPS genre. And the RPG genre. And the TBS genre. And the fighting game genre. And the MOBA genre.
You can see where this is going.
The point a friend was making is that the overall quality of games in all genres these days don't need to be good - because the industry has focused on 'player investment' (thanks Microsoft for that term). Achievements, xp bars that fill in games that have nothing to do with RPGs, etc.The more a player engages, the more the game unlocks, fills up, fills in, rewards with trinkets and trophies and little icons that say 'I did this thing' - and thus the less likely a player will go to a competitor's game.
I'd argue that things have changed - that MMO is a genre in which the stakes are now higher, quality/fun is far more important, because sub MMOs need to keep players there, paying the sub. It used to be just the fact that the game WAS an MMO was enough - being new, exciting, and unlike anything else (like UO) made the entry fee each month seem worth it - but things have changed, and MMO no longer seems that "special", so the entry fee has to pay for something a player feels worthwhile. Compared to say, an FPS shooter, where once the player has bought it, the company has the money - but engagement is paramount so they'll buy DLC.
GW2 falls more towards being like multiplayer FPS client - they need players to enjoy themselves, so they'll buy stuff off the Gem store. GW2 doesn't have the stockholm syndrome to get people paying monthly - so it needs to be engaging, and provide fun that players keep coming back to, so QoL purchases make sense for the player, since they're thinking "I'll be playing this for a while, may as well". Not unlike what F2P games do, as you no doubt are thinking.
That some people don't find GW2 fun, or engaging, really has very little to do with it - they don't matter. You can't please everyone, and if you make love to the world you'll catch herpes.
(Yes, WoW had lots of skinnerboxing and such - but it still had a core of fun, there is much enjoyment a player could extract from it - but how long that fun lasted varies from player to player, hence the habit/skinnerboxing to try and get them to stay past the point of diminishing returns on fun, long enough so that the next injection of fun - an expansion - could be made. Boy am I glad GW2 isn't following that model.)
I realised that was what was happening to me with GW2 so I've stopped playing temporarily. How many times have I read on the forums of people simply logging on to do their dailies, farm their nodes, do Teq or CoF and then logging off again?
You're right to a degree - a lot of games are designed around hooks that rope a player in and keep snowballing. MMO addiction is still unique though - the community aspect, character investment, endless carrots on sticks and the fact that you don't even need to be good at the game to progress. I'm sure there are people who live vicariously through their character in the game - you can't replicate that in other genres.
Definitely the right call. Play when it's the game you feel like playing, and literally no time else.
shysaursoft
Member
I won't argue with that - the MMO genre is still a unique enough situation, combining more elements than is commonly found tied together in other games, that it presents so many ways in which a person can become addicted to it.
I know Second Lifers. Nuff said.
Though, one could argue quite a few games reward players without them needing to be good (Call of Duty), and "living vicariously" for the sake of compensating for what may be issues in real life, happens almost anywhere. Just look at the GameFAQ forums. Quite a few characters there who are level 99 'angry gamers' who've likely never touched a game.
My point was more, that GW2 is possibly the more gregarious implementation of the entire structure, compared to MMOs which stop only two steps short of your character needing to pee. GW2, much like GW1, still screams 'game' long before it screams 'highly intricate systems designed to engage you on every protocol possible where addiction.exe might find entry'.
Then again, people become addicted to watching Duck Dynasty, or collecting Beanie Babies... I think the problem here is people.
But you're right - when you're doing a thing just for the sake of doing it - habit, busywork, or because it's a "chore" you do for the sake of it - then one should stop. That's personal responsibility though, and not I feel, any indication as to the quality of the game or its content.
Beat me to it.
I know someone what plays a round of Dota 2 every day partially because they enjoy it, but mostly so that they can do their once-a-day shot at getting an item at the end of the match, because that item they might want, or might be worth something to sell. Then again, almost every game they've bought recently on Steam was funded by Dota2 hats.... so I guess that is akin to working a job to buy things you want. >..>
i dont have much to add here but my view of the community as overal, not talking only about GW2 or MMOs goes much through what miktar said before.
the gamer community in its overal scenery is looking for rewards, they want the sense that they are obtaining something. they want trophies, loot, something for i dont know why.
remember back in the day when we played a game, and there was a hard phase we made giant effort to go through and when we finally made it through we felt simply awesome? not because of some loot or trophie or anything, it was just because we made it. the actual gamerbase spits on this old good sense, most people have been playing the game for some other reason, other than playing the game.
damn, i love when i feel that my skills have grow a little bit and i can now go further than i could before, i love to feel that above all else, above all levels and exp bars, i " The Player " have grow a bit, me myself " leveled up ". i dont think the base nowdays can see it or feel it.
TL;DR: People nowdays play the game for other reasons other than having fun with the game imo
PS: internet is crappy, got work from college, and on the top of all, The Banner Saga has been released yesterday
the gamer community in its overal scenery is looking for rewards, they want the sense that they are obtaining something. they want trophies, loot, something for i dont know why.
remember back in the day when we played a game, and there was a hard phase we made giant effort to go through and when we finally made it through we felt simply awesome? not because of some loot or trophie or anything, it was just because we made it. the actual gamerbase spits on this old good sense, most people have been playing the game for some other reason, other than playing the game.
damn, i love when i feel that my skills have grow a little bit and i can now go further than i could before, i love to feel that above all else, above all levels and exp bars, i " The Player " have grow a bit, me myself " leveled up ". i dont think the base nowdays can see it or feel it.
TL;DR: People nowdays play the game for other reasons other than having fun with the game imo
PS: internet is crappy, got work from college, and on the top of all, The Banner Saga has been released yesterday
shysaursoft
Member
^ Amen to that. Not to start a circle-jerk about "in my day we played games because they were games and fun and way better than anything else", but yeah. We totally did.
But I'm okay with people who play to feel rewarded. Just like I'm fine with people who play games "to be entertained", aka, the "interactive entertainment" crowd.
It's just not for me. I don't see any one of the three as the "true spirit of gaming", but I do know which one I'd vote for in a "to the death" poll. We already have movies, and we already have meaningless rewards given to us for meaningless acts. But games, vidja games, systems to learn, explore and master?
Unique, precious.
But I'm okay with people who play to feel rewarded. Just like I'm fine with people who play games "to be entertained", aka, the "interactive entertainment" crowd.
It's just not for me. I don't see any one of the three as the "true spirit of gaming", but I do know which one I'd vote for in a "to the death" poll. We already have movies, and we already have meaningless rewards given to us for meaningless acts. But games, vidja games, systems to learn, explore and master?
Unique, precious.
When I mentioned MMO hooks, I didnt mean it to sound negative. But they are called hooks for a reason, not only that but these games, especially MMOs, are specifically designed (from scratch or inherited from others in the genre) to hook you. Some of these hooks are pretty obvious and they're normally what we call the carrots on a stick and the grind but there are many other hooks that are way more subtle. The main one is the social aspect of it. Like Miktar said, you could make the same argument about , DayZ, Rust, DOTA, LoL, CoD#89023 etc etc because these multiplayer genres are all incorporating these hooks into their games to prolong its life and in some cases monetize it in the long run.
It is a very scary situation where one could slip into addiction rather easily without noticing and while actually enjoying it. My original point been that perhaps some of us are still playing the game not entirely bcs it is an awesomesauce game but bcs it is a good game and it has some hooks to it too.
And just in case I'm not judging. Mostly speaking from experience, having lead one of the top raiding guilds in AoC I had to bench people to force them off the game and luckily the game started to stagnate big time once it actually started affecting my life, so I managed to barely get out in time.
It is a very scary situation where one could slip into addiction rather easily without noticing and while actually enjoying it. My original point been that perhaps some of us are still playing the game not entirely bcs it is an awesomesauce game but bcs it is a good game and it has some hooks to it too.
And just in case I'm not judging. Mostly speaking from experience, having lead one of the top raiding guilds in AoC I had to bench people to force them off the game and luckily the game started to stagnate big time once it actually started affecting my life, so I managed to barely get out in time.
shysaursoft
Member
Fair enough. I'd say it's usually a good chance that player investment compensates for diminishing fun returns, especially with people who tire or get bored *very* quickly.
If anything, I'd agree 100% that this subject - addiction to digital interaction - is something society as a whole needs to become more aware of, and start handling better when it comes to educating children.
Do not research Club Penguin. It'll make you cry.
But that is the nature of the beast right now - we're still so *early* in gaming as a concept, how it impacts society, what it means across all walks of life - and half the planet hasn't even ever played a game, because they're not in the same socio-technological age.
But, first, we're going to have to deal with 'addiction to MMOs is a disease'. :/
There's a sinister reason behind that though. Younger players have been conditioned by the developers/publishers to play for "meaningless" rewards. To the point of (IIRC from some articles back in the day) psychologist started getting hired at some point to help "develop" system in certain games. Not entirely the players fault when we had an entire generation wrapped around it with chievos and trophies.
I remember when achievement were announced, thinking how ridiculous the idea seemed and pretty much most of my friends thought the same but younger players didnt have the experience that we did, of playing games for just fun. And bcs of that, we are where we are. With FPS that have XP bars and flying numbers and people that play 100hrs of shitty games only to boost their "space points" of their choosing.
shysaursoft
Member
You just reminded me of http://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-ghost-story/ and now I'm a little sad.
I'm going to go play some indie games now to make myself feel better. http://www.locomalito.com/maldita_castilla.php here I come.
I don't really see how GW2 is any different to other MMOs when it comes to hooks. Cosmetic gains are clearly just as desirable and produce the same sort of typical MMo behaviour. The only difference is that they've kept claiming since launch there's no vertical progression. Ascended gear serves no purpose other than providing another thing to grind. It's not even their fault though - you simply can't have a really successful game in this genre while maintaining zero vertical progression. The argument of hooks being unnecessary due to the lack of a monthly fee is nonsense - the whole game is designed around making you use the gem store.
shysaursoft
Member
If the differences between WoW/TERA/Aion/FFXIV and GW2's various structures that incorporate hooks isn't immediately apparant to you, I honestly don't know what to say other than I'm not getting paid as an educator so I really don't want to go into it at length, unless you *really* want me to, in which case, you'd better be ready for giant walls of text and damn your eyes if you don't read them properly and just tl;dr; with "they're still the same no matter what you say".
The problem is, and don't be offended by this: I can't help but see you as a hostile critic, which means I feel like I'd be wasting my time. I don't want to try and change someone's mind, and you seem like you've made up your mind already, so is there *really* any point to committing on this point?
I'd rather just enjoy playing the game, and if someone doesn't, all power to them to stop playing and go play something they do enjoy.
Of course there's a difference in structures when the two games are based on different pricing models. I'm saying that the the results and behaviour they aim to achieve are largely the same.
I also love how I also get singled out as some sort of mega hater when there's countless people who are exactly the same on the other end of the spectrum. Wonderfully pretentious first paragraph there as well.
shysaursoft
Member
And I'm out. When my regular conversational tone is accused of being pretentious, that's a pretty good sign that things won't get better.
I wasn't singling you out, insomuch that I was replying to you. That's the back-and-forth of conversation. You said something, I replied.
I don't agree that the results and behavior are the same between GW2's model and contemporary MMOs - if they were, I wouldn't be playing GW2, to be honest. I can see how you'd think that, but I'd question if you're examining this critically, or if you've played much of games like FFXIV/WoW lately.
But I'm not going to press the point, since I don't want to continue giving you the wrong idea. I did not mean to antagonize.
I wasn't singling you out, insomuch that I was replying to you. That's the back-and-forth of conversation. You said something, I replied.
I don't agree that the results and behavior are the same between GW2's model and contemporary MMOs - if they were, I wouldn't be playing GW2, to be honest. I can see how you'd think that, but I'd question if you're examining this critically, or if you've played much of games like FFXIV/WoW lately.
But I'm not going to press the point, since I don't want to continue giving you the wrong idea. I did not mean to antagonize.
Soooo...
That trailer was awfulness.
Awfulness.
But then again, its scarlet related.
God, just kill her off, more on, we dont need more months of this tumour, cut it out.
"The living story! we can change the world month to month and week to week!"
"Oh, you all hate her and she ruins everythin we do with her awfulness?! Well we cant change it, we have this planned out to last 12 months"
LIVING!
That trailer was awfulness.
Awfulness.
But then again, its scarlet related.
God, just kill her off, more on, we dont need more months of this tumour, cut it out.
"The living story! we can change the world month to month and week to week!"
"Oh, you all hate her and she ruins everythin we do with her awfulness?! Well we cant change it, we have this planned out to last 12 months"
LIVING!
Ugh, I dare say 80% of the games installed on my tablet are exactly like this. These days I only play the Might and Magic one though, which is a "traditional" match 3 "rpg" game, no hooks no bullshit no microtransaction in that one!
I would argue in favor of the point you're making but to a lesser extent. Like I said, I believe GW2 has many of the hooks other MMOs have, especially the subtle ones but they are not as front and center as they are in other MMOs. Therefore the players are less affected by them.
One of the biggest hooks of GW2, that most people don't realize and sometimes even use to counter the argument that GW2 is like other MMOs, is the fact that there is no sub. The mere fact that you can take a long break from the game KNOWING that you can come back at any point in time without any additional cost to you is the best hook ever designed, especially how ANET monetizes the BL trader. Yes, you as a consumer benefit from the fact of not having to pay a sub, but dont kid yourself, it is a deliberately designed hook.
The psychology behind game design is really interesting and it can also get pretty dark really quick.
edit: also I didnt mean to derail the thread, just saw an opportunity to talk about something that has always interested me of MMO design. Didn't mean to call out/offend anyone, if I did.
shysaursoft
Member
One of my favorite (and most often cited) articles on gamer psychology was one where the author broke down the three MMO player 'types' (via the Daedelus Project) and tried to root out their goals. He then broke World of Warcraft down into a basic set of rules and examined the skill vs. chance aspect involved.
The conclusion was "World of Warcraft has the skill requirements of a slot machine and presses nearly identical psychological buttons", i.e. the internal systems add so much randomness, from combat to loot rolls, and the player has so little impact on them that time is the determining factor more than skill. It also made a point to address the conditioning that occurs via social mechanisms (From the competitive "I must be better than the other guy", to the explorer's "I must maintain top gear to see all the content", to the social player's "I must not let my friends/guild down") and actually described it as more harmful than gambling because that causes a break with social ties whereas MMOs create them to the player's overall detriment.
The short version is basically "MMOs are basically the slowest slot machines in the world and one that not only ensnares you with positive reinforcement but social reinforcement as well. The biggest distinction is that the greater loss isn't money but time, but which is easier to get back?"
You can read it here:
And that's all I'll say on the subject. http://www.buzzcut.com/archive/article.php~story=20060303211856230.html
LiveSpartan235
Neo Member
A dev that was watching the Relics of Orr GW2 podcast commented that he saw a reddit post that that basically nailed what's going to happen over these last 4 LS updates
Holy crap, I'm reading this and going "yeah, yeah. Sounds good, mhmm" Then the article slowly starts becoming familiar to me. I check the date and yes! I remember reading this article back in 2006 or an article that lifted word for word from this one for a statistics for engineers class I took that year. We had a project, creating a game of chance and we read a whole bunch of articles and I'm pretty sure this was one of them!
Pretty good read!
Don't know if I should hug you for taking me down memory lane or stab you for making me feel old!
This is currently what terrifies me about the Horizontal Progression CDI. There are people that want these kinds of systems in the game. No one is thinking maliciously or anything, and I'll probably be able to easily ignore anything I don't like in the same exact way I do with Ascended, but if we're not careful the game may take a step too far that it can't take back (like I still feel about Ascended).
But maybe it's just my opinion. Much like Miktar mentioned, I treat GW2 much like a FPS client, jumping into parts of PvE, PvP, and WvW much like I would jump into different game modes in Team Fortress 2. If there was an in-game voice chat option tied to parties and PvP teams I'd be golden.
And from that point of view I can't help but think "what's the point of housing other than to give you more busywork and things to do?" You can have all your related in-game accomplishments presented on the log in screen and achievement tab (which I'm sure will improve over time much like they have in the past year). People aren't going to care to jump into your home instance much of the time so most of the stuff is going to be shared via screenshots in both cases.
Much like TF2 with hats I draw the line at weapon and gear skins, but because there's no reasonable way to swap between gear and traits I just make one build per class that I can reasonably use in all three modes. And thanks to the announcement last month that gear will be shared across all three modes eventually I don't even have to consider anymore the possible work required to get my PvP and non-PvP looks to match up when they give all the same damn skins different names.
Forgot to quote this last night since Hawkian read it aloud to us in Mumble during our AC Story run, but you are a poster after my own heart. This is a good post and you should feel good, and some shortened, preferably poetic variation of it should be nailed above the offices of every game developer. Maybe "ludus ludum quoniam propter ludum": Play the game for the game (thanks Google!)
Don't know if I should hug you for taking me down memory lane or stab you for making me feel old!
You can do both at the same time, it's probably easier and more efficient to go in for the hug and then shiv me in the back.
I read through the first 13 pages (back when it was only 13 pages) and the tone was much improved over previous CDIs (nobody on the first page slipped in a "lazy / inept devs" comment, which was a fucking miracle). But a lot of the ideas flat out aren't horizontal progression, or if they are, they're just, as you say, busywork that achieves nothing. To me, vertical progression is always just a series of bigger hammers (and the entire point is lost when the game is built to just keep increasing the size of the nails to match), but horizontal progression is about expanding the player's toolbox. Each new tool isn't necessarily an entirely new way to play (it can just be a personal choice that affects preference, appearance, etc.), but if they're going to put in the work they probably should.
Of course, to incorporate additional tools, you need more than just nails to hit. That's where almost every single post I read failed to address the concerns; it only added a new way to do the same task, like giving you a fancy new tool but having you still hitting nails with it. The 'progression' aspect means the game has to change holistically; you can't just slap new skills or traits on (the most common suggestion), because the context (hitting nails) is still the same. Enemies need to change. Environments need to change. Hitting nails with different tools is neat for a while, but it's a short-term, shallow return on a lot of imbalancing investments (which was GW1's issue; more skills = harder balance). That's one of the reasons why the "To clear the air about Berzerker" post that's been making the rounds lately is so refreshing; he understands that a game is a huge series of systems built upon systems where changing one thing changes countless others, often in unforeseen ways (especially when you throw in human behavior, which is impossible to predict and harder to quantify). He understands you can't solve the "Berserker problem" without changing things that lead to it being a problem in the first place. Not many people in the CDI thread seemed to put much thought beyond 'it would be cool if..." For example, one of my few posts in the thread pointed out that if one player's suggestion (unlock racial skills for all races, allowing them to be improved since they're no longer restricted) were implemented, it would address another player's suggestion ("Engineers need more skills", yes, I know, he was just begging for buffs in the wrong fucking thread, but that's not a surprise); doing so would give Engineers not only 12 new racials, but would have added 12 new Toolbelt skills as well. I was tying a third suggestion (Unlock all of the personal stories) in as well, thinking that the personal story chapters could be used as the unlocking mechanism, but I decided against it.
I had a nice big post ready for the CDI thread, but about 3/4ths of the way through I realized it would A.) derail the thread, B.) prove impossible to implement in the existing frame and C.) if implemented, would make the game unrecognizable. There were also parts of it that I know are in development already and I just need to be patient for, but were essential to the overall concept. I ended up deleting it and, wouldn't you know, as soon as I did and refreshed the page, a whole slew of very bad idea posts loaded which was sort of defeating on their own.
Housing, if done right, is a gateway to larger gameplay elements. My post-that-never-was touched on that; housing teaches the basic tools for interaction that are used on a grander scale later on. Some people would only get so far as building a cool house, but the goal would be to have the majority of players out there changing the world (and no, I'm not talking about implementing EQN-style sandbox features in GW2, but something more akin to Dynamic Events taken to a physical conclusion). Housing would be the equivalent to decorating a treehouse where the bigger picture would be equivalent to an Amish barn-raising that builds the tree.
Beyond that, I'm a bit of a collector and a housing space is a good place to keep that sort of thing. A list of achievements or whatever works, but it doesn't feel as grand as, say, walking into your house's library and seeing all the little flavor text books you've discovered on display (in the same way that I love my e-reader and it's six gazillion books in the palm of my hand, but would love a proper library and still buy physical copies of some books).
There's a lot of reasons why housing can be more than just "LOL teh Simz" (and I'm not saying you implied that, it's just the usual community response), but a lot of them won't work in GW2 without changing things. Storage is already done with a bank via monetized tabs, and that works perfectly fine. For housing, I would prefer players buy, build or loot chests to expand their storage space, but there's no way to retroactively implement that approach. And so it goes with mail and the trading post, crafting stations and resource nodes, food buffs and economics.GW2 basically streamlines higher purposes for housing right out of the picture and the only thing left is convenience of having all of that in one place (and surprise; the Royal Terrace already does that). Of course, housing also muddies the waters and adds layers of additional complexity, and all that streamlining saves time and lets us get back to playing the game instead of an ancillary not-a-game, so there's something to be said for that too.
/shrug
What?
Kos Luftar
Member
I want ANET to show us that they can do expansion like things with living story because I don't consider any of the stuff so far to be expansion like.
I want to see living story expand the world not just fix current areas.
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/features/scarlets-story-arc-taking-us/
I really liked the speculation and the reasoning behind this feature.
Could there be something scarier than dragons? Aliens?
I want to see living story expand the world not just fix current areas.
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/features/scarlets-story-arc-taking-us/
I really liked the speculation and the reasoning behind this feature.
Could there be something scarier than dragons? Aliens?
shysaursoft
Member
Tell me about it. The same people who bashed GW2 for "not being revolutionary/evolutionary enough!" are the ones who are insisting it be turned "more into WoW", asking for all the things that made MMOs such a damn chore to begin with. These are the people who won't play the game as is, only bash it for not being what they imagine it should be - which is *exactly what we've already had in MMOs until now*.
Well, the GW universe already has some pretty scary aliens, that have god-tier tech. They're the human Gods. Could you imagine if they came *back*, and weren't too happy with how Tyria turned out after they left? I think those five are scarier than all the dragons combined.
sackboy2197
Member
Can you guys explain a bit better what do you mean with "hooks"?
GW2 it's the first MMO I have actually started playing seryously and with some regularity, but I'm pretty sure I will take a break once I'll get to level 80 and complete the story quests. I do this with pretty much every game: I start out wanting to complete everything, but in the end once I feel that the game is complete, I simply can't bring myself to play it more.
GW2 it's the first MMO I have actually started playing seryously and with some regularity, but I'm pretty sure I will take a break once I'll get to level 80 and complete the story quests. I do this with pretty much every game: I start out wanting to complete everything, but in the end once I feel that the game is complete, I simply can't bring myself to play it more.
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