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Guild Wars 2 |OT3| Two Week Updates, One Box, Zero Subscriptions
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I'm actually intrigued by that one..
a new way to look through the seeings of the eyes.
Maybe a wardrobe function.
I would fucking pay for them to revamp the engine and make the framerate less dependent on being CPU bound.
Hell, jump on the Mantle Bandwagon or OpenGL.
ANet please, I have a beast of a GPU asking to make the game soar. Yet I go to Lions Arch and get 30 FPS on the best case scenario.
YES PLEASE.
Real talk, I think they'd have more black lion sales if they had a wardrobe function. When a lot of your paid content is fashion-based, you better make sure there's as few restrictions on it as possible.
FINALLY ANET. FUCKING FINALLY. NEW OP TURRET TRAIT? WELL I HOPE THIS MEANS YOU REWORKED EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT TURRETS TOO!
MESMERS FINALLY GET TO PLAY AROUND WITH COOLDOWNS? SHIT YES.
I CAN HEAL IN DEATHSHROUD? IT WAS HOPING FOR THAT VERY POSSIBILITY THAT I MADE A DAMNED NECROMANCER IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I'm just... going to go cool off and read some forums later in the day. Just going to play some RE6 with my cousin. Look forward to tomorrow's Art of Combat and all that jazz. I mean seriously, this is the first thing I read on GAF after making that long ass post last night. They're even doing what I hoped and increasing the healing ability of Elementalists to the point where they should stand with Guardians.
shysaursoft
Member
(tears of joy)
Actually, I was reading it wrong, this is the most likely topic in question. "The Looks of Guild Wars 2" as in fashion.
How unnecessarily ambiguous. They clearly did not ask for me to edit these titles. I'm interested in Art of Combat too but cannot possibly speculate on what they mean by it, though that's a more pleasing phrase and I only have to wait until tomorrow so they get a pass.
The traits, I'm pretty over the moon, it just sounds like a brilliant shake-up (trait hunting will scratch my skill-capping itch!), and they followed exactly the trajectory of GW1 (you couldn't just reset your traits anywhere, anytime at launch in that either). The guardian kind of got screwed out of an interesting example (hahahah extra vitality what) but all of the others are just groovy. Engi turret trait is a masterpiece, and the thief one I could actually see using alongside Signet of Malice in my support/keepalive build. Typically I never change my heal as a thief so that could be fun stuff.
edit: Oh and you fucking better believe I'm making a full-on healing ele with that new water trait. Splash splash
shysaursoft
Member
Perhaps they're changing how stats work so vitality has a bigger impact on condition and physical mitigation.
They actually went out of their way to specify that it simply meant a ~3k boost in HP
edit: Though in conjunction with the ferocity/crit changes, what you said is sort of trill true
shysaursoft
Member
It's the one thing I'm hoping for - a better, clearer, delineation between what Vit gives you and what Toughness gives you. Because I still don't quite get, or "feel" in combat, what the difference really is. Perhaps if they were more acute, their effects more pronounced, it'd make sense.
Or perhaps the change is just so Guards don't get eaten alive by a passing Necro fart.
Or perhaps the change is just so Guards don't get eaten alive by a passing Necro fart.
Edvardelis
Member
Interesting changes. I hope the costs for the traits if you don't want to farm them aren't too insane.
Go to Heart of the Mists and play some PvP. Compare carrion amulet to rabid for a condition build and you'll feel the difference between direct damage (toughness) and conditions (vitality).
Edit: Sorry for double post.
Wouldn't it be more of a farm to get the money to buy them?
I think they added the ability to buy them for people with alts. That way you don't have to just keep doing the same stuff over and over to unlock traits for each alt. It makes sense.
shysaursoft
Member
I've played a lot of PvP. Almost daily. I still don't "feel" the difference really, because in PvP you're either alive, or dead. Protracted fights between bunker builds have more to do with damage mitigations kills than health pools or toughness. Glass cannons kill you one shot no matter what your gear, unless you avoid using skills.
A situation where the difference between high HP or high tough makes the difference between life or death, just doesn't seem to come along.
Ok, but I personally run a settler (shaman) amulet and I definitely feel the difference between fighting a condition build vs a direct damage build. You can really see the effect of toughness too in WvW when you get jumped by a thief.
On that note, how can Anet justify releasing a balance patch and new traits in the middle of a WvW season? It goes directly against their stated plans, plus it's absurd competitively.
shysaursoft
Member
But that's also kind of my point - so you go high vit, which soaks up damage and gives you more time on condition ticks to cleanse in - then the next guy that rocks up to fight you, or at the same time, has the opposite build of who you just fought, and now you need tough, not vit. So you die to a damage burst.
My point is more, the difference between tough and vit is entirely meaningless in the reality of an actual fight. Sure, one on one, in a clinical environment, I could see how edging out the numbers in a counterpick would matter - but when you're in WvW it's meaningless, and when you're in PvP team fights it's meaningless. And I used to run Juggernaut on FT with my Engie. Yes, it let me bunker longer (until a glass cannon thief came along), but to no real end other than stalling for time, and not that long either. 200 toughness didn't seem to be that much.
I'd guess the whining was too much in the end. But if you look at reddit, even the hardcore PvP uber alles WvW crowd is happy it's being released sooner rather than after, even if it is in the middle of the WvW season.
My point is more, the difference between tough and vit is entirely meaningless in the reality of an actual fight. Sure, one on one, in a clinical environment, I could see how edging out the numbers in a counterpick would matter - but when you're in WvW it's meaningless, and when you're in PvP team fights it's meaningless. And I used to run Juggernaut on FT with my Engie. Yes, it let me bunker longer (until a glass cannon thief came along), but to no real end other than stalling for time, and not that long either. 200 toughness didn't seem to be that much.
I'd guess the whining was too much in the end. But if you look at reddit, even the hardcore PvP uber alles WvW crowd is happy it's being released sooner rather than after, even if it is in the middle of the WvW season.
LumpOfCole
Member
I wonder how much traits will be sold for by the profession trainer? Will they be sold in gold, or skill points?
Some really good news. Ironically, last night I met Jeb ( the weekly esl streamer) ingame and started bitching about how bad the PvP is since summer, and he was like "come on mate, wait just a bit more". And today - BAM, some really, really cool changes to traits. As well as cool-title-souding blog posts that are incoming in the next days.
I believe the changes to retraiting, refunding traits and removing points is a step in the direction of build templates. After all it was one of the points why templates seemed hard to implement when you had to pay for retraiting.
Also, I'm really glad that they are bringing back the major trait "hunting", which was removed in 2011. More info on why I'm saying they are "bringing it back", instead of being something new to the game, can be found in this old article:
http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/guild-wars-2-devs-talk-warrior-and-traits/
Lastly, but not least, the new traits sounds exciting, except for maybe the guardian... Most notably (for me) are the warrior's and ranger's - looks like one of the first skills/traits to affect attack speed as a stat. And my favorite - the Mesmer's Power Block, which is huge for control builds in similar ways it was in GW1, where interrupting actually was big punishment.
I'm definitely pleasantly surprised with all these changes, and I really do hope Anet can deliver on them and do not disappoint us.
I believe the changes to retraiting, refunding traits and removing points is a step in the direction of build templates. After all it was one of the points why templates seemed hard to implement when you had to pay for retraiting.
Also, I'm really glad that they are bringing back the major trait "hunting", which was removed in 2011. More info on why I'm saying they are "bringing it back", instead of being something new to the game, can be found in this old article:
http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/guild-wars-2-devs-talk-warrior-and-traits/
(which now sounds like some Skill Points on the world map)
Lastly, but not least, the new traits sounds exciting, except for maybe the guardian... Most notably (for me) are the warrior's and ranger's - looks like one of the first skills/traits to affect attack speed as a stat. And my favorite - the Mesmer's Power Block, which is huge for control builds in similar ways it was in GW1, where interrupting actually was big punishment.
I'm definitely pleasantly surprised with all these changes, and I really do hope Anet can deliver on them and do not disappoint us.
shysaursoft
Member
I hope one day we get an MMO where this kind of exploration is possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLDYtH1RH-U
I wonder if you're considering the difference in impact based on who you are rather than just who you're fighting. So toughness has no impact on conditions and does nothing to raise your HP, but helps with burst; vitality doesn't dull the impact of burst at all but helps sustain against all kinds of damage.
Low base HP high base armor, i.e. a guardian, benefits the most from vitality
High base HP low base armor, i.e. a necro or mesmer, favors toughness
Of course it might be that what you're getting at is that if you're going for pure survivability you want both regardless of class/armor, which is to say Soldier's, which is true. But maybe this highlights the difference a little bit.
shysaursoft
Member
I always "play the matchup", so I get that vit and tough have their uses in specific scenarios - but it feels like it only matters in the vacuum of theorycrafting. That once you're actually in a fight vs more than 1 person, the difference becomes generally meaningless, since at that point life and death has little to do with your tough and vit, and everything to do with what skills are on cooldown, what you have slotted, and who it is that just rocked up.
Which means ideally, you just want to equalize your tough-vit for general fighting, since optimizing for one or the other doesn't give you any benefit unless you're playing a targeted ganker.
Which means ideally, you just want to equalize your tough-vit for general fighting, since optimizing for one or the other doesn't give you any benefit unless you're playing a targeted ganker.
shysaursoft
Member
That's why I'm curious to see how the stat changes are going to impact things. I'm hoping they'll improve the feel and feedback on certain types of attacks and damage types.
Jest Chillin
Member
But what about low base HP and medium base armor?
Our poor Thieves.
On the topic of the blogs, I'm intrigued. I like the new Grandmaster Trait they revealed as that might give my S/D Thief some decent survivability again in PvP. I feel like they really need to move that direction more since I can't really see a way for them to make Conditions on par with other Condition-strong classes.. and if they can't do that, then Condi Thief will always be weak against builds meant to fight off the stronger Condi classes.
shysaursoft
Member
My baseline for how good stat feedback should feel : Poise in Dark Souls II. Nuff said. Granted, DSII is designed around the system, with specific animations and considerations to give explicit feedback on your Poise and its effects.. but that's my point really. Status ailments in GW2 feel very ephemeral, like they exist mostly in "number space", a holdover from mathmath RPG numberrolling, and slightly at odds with the action shootbang of GW2's combat. Cripple is like, the most "visible" status that makes sense in how it controls your movement. Kinda wish the other status ailments were given more tangible effects, other than 'now I'm green and healing is nerfed' or 'now I hurt if I walk some more'. I don't even know what fire damage really does, other than just a damage tick while it's on? Guess I should wiki.
EDIT: Oh, it caps at 9.
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + 328 damage per second at Level 80
EDIT: Oh, it caps at 9.
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + 328 damage per second at Level 80
So the new trait system sounds pretty awesome, I like the idea of a single trait having far more impact when you use it.
Also, look a this winner.
Also, look a this winner.
shysaursoft
Member
Jest Chillin
Member
He could've saved a lot of time and simply said, "make it more like WoW." Then people wouldn't have wasted precious seconds of their lives reading his bullet points.
Obviously the entire premise of deliberately choosing stats is theorycrafting; but optimizing for one or the other does, statistically speaking, give you a bigger benefit depending on your class/build. You could find a sweet spot of survivability/damage for your build without compromising either based on legitimate numerical reality. If your point is that doing this has so little tangible benefit in the moment-to-moment experience of playing the game that it isn't worth the trouble, then I agree with you, and furthermore I'd say that you're inadvertently alluding to one of the game's strengths as I'll describe a little more below.
In general skill wills out in this game over stats. In a true majority of combat scenarios. I consider this a distinct advantage rather than a flaw and I don't want it to change; I'm not sure how exactly they could make stats more impactful without compromising this truth.
That's why when you say: 0
I wonder what you mean exactly by "feel and feedback." I don't want stats made more important in general, and would be happy if the only imapct of the change were making Berserker gear less ubiquitous in PvE.
In my support build I focus primarily on Vit in order to get to around 16k HP. But of course, this is a mere cushion against mistakes. Staying alive as a thief is all about taking every opportunity to avoid getting hit; Shortbow 3, Shortbow 5, Shadowstep, Pistol Whip and even Sword 2 and stealing are the most important skills I've got when using that build.But what about low base HP and medium base armor?Our poor Thieves.
Yeah... no way I would enjoy gear having anywhere near as much impact in GW2 as it does in the Souls games.
shysaursoft
Member
Yeah, it's a rough one to explain since the qualia of playing a game is, naturally, idiosyncratic. Dark Souls II really is the only good example I can give, in which when two numbers clash you totally feel the effects. Like Poise, again. If you have a huge, high poise, even when not blocking, enemies can't budge you. Their attacks literally *bounce* off you.
By contrast, if you have low poise, even when holding up a shield, if something big and heavy hits you, you go flying. Sure, it emphasizes numbers - but even in GW2 those numbers are there and not going away any time soon - so they may as well make the feedback on those numbers matter a heck of a lot more. Hell, if Toughness impacted how *far* someone could get pulled, or pushed, I wonder how that would change things.
Imagine a low tough thief running in, Engie does Magnetic Inversion, and the thief goes flying - whereas a Guard that ran in with huge Tough, barely gets pushed back. GW2 always feels a few steps away from the 'physicality' it seems to want have, but I suspect that's more to do with the creaking engine. Like when using Rocket Boots, instead of going forward and then arcing parabolically along your vector, once you hit 'max distance' you drop like a stone. That always bugged the crap out of me. It *should* be that high ground = greater arc distance on movement effects and arcing ranged attacks, etc.
But in a game where "skill > numbers", there really is only so much you can do with the numbers that sit on the sidelines while you're busy dodging and such. I just feel they're either being underutilized, or when they are used, the effects feel nonexistent other than someone's HP ticking down faster or slower.
That's what I'm saying though, Hawk: traits should affect HOW you play the game, thereby giving skilled players more ways to use their skills.
As it stands, does toughness vs. vitality have a huge and interesting impact that changes how you approach a situation?
You have to understand though, I'm not an RPG guy, letalone an MMO one. I grew up with action games. I feel like traits, classes, and skills should affect how you interact with stuff, and in GW2 (and most MMO's in general), it feels like buildcrafting rarely affects how you're doing stuff and more what the stuff you do does.
If that made any sense.
As it stands, does toughness vs. vitality have a huge and interesting impact that changes how you approach a situation?
You have to understand though, I'm not an RPG guy, letalone an MMO one. I grew up with action games. I feel like traits, classes, and skills should affect how you interact with stuff, and in GW2 (and most MMO's in general), it feels like buildcrafting rarely affects how you're doing stuff and more what the stuff you do does.
If that made any sense.
Jest Chillin
Member
I've found the same. Vit is more meaningful in surviving a mistake (or in PvP, burst) but I was mostly just whining about our general durability being low no matter what stats we build for. Don't get me wrong, I love our mobility and it's an essential aspect of the class, I'd just like to live a bit longer against groups or snatching builds if we choose to go the non-glass route.
I get you now. I don't want this at all, and don't feel it would change things for the better. It would make optimizing your stats far more necessary than it is now.
edit: Regarding the influence of numerical stats, just to clarify. I surely want Rocket Boots to function more naturally
Unless I'm misunderstanding completely stats are pretty unrelated to traits in the sense I've been discussing. Traits should do exactly word for word what you just said.
While I agree with that completely, my position is that I'd prefer they not exist at all versus being made to be more important.
I love the Souls games. Love. If I'm allowed to include them all collectively the series is prooobably in my top 3 games of all time. But it's aiming for something completely different in my opinion. The idea that PvP should represent an "even playing field" in those games is laughable, whereas it's a basic design tenet in GW2.
shysaursoft
Member
Then again, I cop out and run full Celestial on everything, just so I can avoid all this numbers crap anyway, so take what I say with a grain of salt
But what is the alternative then? Just have *everyone* run Celestial, and the only way to change numbers is by your Traits, not unlike Monster Hunter where your stats are *entirely* determined by your gear (which are are you skills, really)?
But what is the alternative then? Just have *everyone* run Celestial, and the only way to change numbers is by your Traits, not unlike Monster Hunter where your stats are *entirely* determined by your gear (which are are you skills, really)?
I was under the impression that EVERY trait would be a different quest, so even if you have alts, if they're a different class, it's new areas to get them
There are a number of alternatives. Your proposal reads as quite silly (maybe intentionally so) as rather than having "everyone run Celestial" I'd say gear could just have no stats at all, being merely cosmetic, and the only way to change numbers would indeed be your traits.
Another idea would be that classes allowed for a few predetermined stat arrays (which could be labelled creatively with "subclass" names) at character creation or a level-based unlock, and switchable in-game once unlocked say via the profession trainer. This would detach them from gear but still allow statistical variation within each class for players to choose between outside of traits.
Another would be to fully attach them to gear, and have a large degree of "stat impact" in-game (somewhere between Monster Hunter and Souls, I guess), but also abstract the process out for players that were not interested in theorycrafting- an "optimize" button that calculated the gear stats you needed to acquire that would make your character the most balanced at 80 if not necessarily the most effective.
These ideas are all far too extreme for most of the playerbase and the existing system is an adequate compromise. I don't see it as a substantial flaw that needs addressing. Traits are FAR more important to work on in my eyes. You and I are both able to be competitive without putting all that much effort into thinking about the numbers behind our gear stats.
Bl4ckSunsh1n3
Member
So...our current builds will be wiped trait wise and we'll have to do stuff throughout the world to get traits back? Is that how that will work? I didn't play more than a few hours or so of GW1 so I'm not familiar with the system they are discussing.
shysaursoft
Member
This, I actually like. The trait path names used to invoke this idea for me in spirit.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/traits-unleashed-forty-new-traits-and-more/
Existing characters that have reached 80 will already have all the traits unlocked they had before, with the *exception* of the new ones added. For those, you either go buy them at the trait trainer, or go do the event the skill is attached to, to unlock it.
If I'm reading it right, you'll have a reset to the new point system on existing characters but have access to everything you had before. The new grandmaster traits will be on top of those and will need to be unlocked.
haha, no, wow. that would be crazy and I'd actually like it, but ArenaNet doesn't want their HQ burned to the ground by people with 40 80s.
edit: Speak of the devil.
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