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Half-Life 2 = GOTY.
- Thread starter Andy787
- Start date
I'm not sure about HL2 AI... but having played most of Halo 2 on heroic with a friend...
most of the difficulty for me comes from the fact that they take an incredible number of shots to defeat rather than the advanced AI or some such.
Also the controls leave something to be desired as they don't exactly give you the edge on the charging brutes. I mean if they had a dodge left or dodge right button combo it would definetly make them alot easier... as it is, even if I time the dodge right, the brute tends to be too fast to avoid completely.
Finally the arbiter's temporary cloaking is an awesome tool.
most of the difficulty for me comes from the fact that they take an incredible number of shots to defeat rather than the advanced AI or some such.
Also the controls leave something to be desired as they don't exactly give you the edge on the charging brutes. I mean if they had a dodge left or dodge right button combo it would definetly make them alot easier... as it is, even if I time the dodge right, the brute tends to be too fast to avoid completely.
Finally the arbiter's temporary cloaking is an awesome tool.
Have you guys made it past Ravenholm yet? You start fighting combine troops with black masks as opposed to white and they seem to have better AI, using cover, greandes and whatnot much more then the earlier variants did. Still not at Halo's level but better then most FPS games.
What people overlook when they focus on AI is the other aspects that make Halo's combat so brilliant -- Elites are aware of the damage they've taken, and act accordingly. If you knock out their shield, they will just hide and recharge their shields and be up to full strength pretty quickly. Enemies must be taken down all in one burst, or else you have just wasted a ton of ammo.Zaptruder said:
If you gave Halo's AI to a generic WW2 shooter, it wouldn't be a big deal (so I can kinda understand why people don't see its imprtance). In a hypothetical "Call of Honor" WW2 game, human enemies might hide after you do some damage, but you could still slowly whittle away at their total energy/life by taking sporadic potshots at them as they peek out from behind their cover. A Half-Life 2 soldier can never go back to full strength after you've emptied rounds into him. Not so in Halo. A few bullets here or there is worthless because of the shield recharging. This dynamic forces you to be proactive, rather than just trading fire as you and your opponent hide behind boxes. That's what makes the game so different and so much more involving than anything else. Too often, conventionally designed FPS titles (*cough* Call of Duty *cough*) just degrade into a shooting gallery, where you sit behind cover, and wait for an enemy's head to pop out. It's technically realistic and strategic, but on the other hand it's really just Whack-A-Mole with guns, and it wears thin a bit quickly for me.
Legendary difficulty may not really increase the evasive skill of enemies, but it's the only place where you will see the depth of combat played out through the AI. In an easier difficulty, it doesn't matter if an Elite sidesteps your grenade or tries to recharge his shields. You can easily run up to him and finish the job with even a relatively ineffective weapon. In Legendary, every grenade is precious and you can't just run up to a hiding enemy because the other enemies that are in the open will take you down. A missed grenade throw is very often the difference between life and death.
The difference between Legendary and the "Hard" mode of an average FPS is that in the average FPS, you pretty much play the same way you did in Normal (except you have to be more careful). You use essentially the same weapons and strategies, but you have to just be better than you were in the "Normal" mode. Legendary Halo mixes things up much more. Weapons and strategies that were effective before are no longer useful, and the game becomes something totally different.
Mike Works
Member
Pfft. Half Life 1's AI is better than Halo 2's?
ICO's Yorda is smarter than all of Halo 2's AI put together.
That bitch can... run.
ICO's Yorda is smarter than all of Halo 2's AI put together.
That bitch can... run.
The Faceless Master
Member
wow, HL2 has DOOM3 style AI?
:lol :lol :lol
i think i'd rather play prime2!
i mean, even in Halo 1, on normal, the grunts would do things like run away when they were about to get owned rather than just charge in or stand in 1 spot...
:lol :lol :lol
i think i'd rather play prime2!
i mean, even in Halo 1, on normal, the grunts would do things like run away when they were about to get owned rather than just charge in or stand in 1 spot...
played HL2 tonight for about 5 hours. i'm trying to take down the helicopter in the hovercraft right now and... yeah, the firefights have been really pathetic. a real step backwards for the series (HL1's marines were way better). i do like fighting the manhacks. those were very well done.
overall, half-life 2's gunplay just doesn't feel as good or as solid as halo 2's. enemies tend to fall over too quickly after you shoot them, and with the exception of the .357, the weapons just don't have the oomph. and playing the game on hard only increases the damage you take and decreases the damage you do. how lame is that?
still, i'm having a lot of fun with HL2. the graphics, atmosphere, and pacing have been impeccable so far.
overall, half-life 2's gunplay just doesn't feel as good or as solid as halo 2's. enemies tend to fall over too quickly after you shoot them, and with the exception of the .357, the weapons just don't have the oomph. and playing the game on hard only increases the damage you take and decreases the damage you do. how lame is that?
still, i'm having a lot of fun with HL2. the graphics, atmosphere, and pacing have been impeccable so far.
The Faceless Master said:
...they're not that dumb.
If you shoot at a grunt they'll run behind something for cover most of the time. They also don't usually charge at you but rather wait for you to come to them where they can shoot you. The only times that rush to where you are is when there are multiple enemies since I guess they figure 2 of them beats 1 of you
As explained above in terms of AI Halo has it easy, elites are able to drop back behind cover and recharge their shields so they either have to be dealt with at one time or you keep fighting them over and over. I have no problem with this, perhaps this does encourage the player to be more proactive and creates depth in combat, i.e. to break the stalemate. Nevertheless, soldiers in games like HL2 are not afforded the luxury of infinite recharging shields and therefore the AI must be considered on these merits. Unlike elites which have the same health and shields as MC, the average soldier in HL2 is dead in a single shotgun blast and Gordon could probably take five point blank before going down. This gives the HL2 player a big advantage because you can simply rush the enemy and blow them away with minimal penalty like practically every other FPS ever created. So Halo is unique in this regard, the best enemies are your equal and since they're often lying in ambush this can set up a good challenge. As I said though, not every FPS can be designed under this 'infinite recharging shields' principle and if one is going to compare the AI of Halo's seemingly 'amazing' enemies to those of other games then one should take this into consideration.
Not to say that Halo's AI isn't without its flaws, for example, watch in awe as an elite in the open pointlessly dodges from side to side as you simply circle round back and pump round after round into him until he's dead. This sort of dodging shit may work when your ducking behind cover but in the open it's pretty stupid. Then there's also the small covenant grunts who will often turn around run away in the middle of a fire fight, pretty stupid as they're simply mowed down like grass afterward.
The fact is, despite what bullshit people may have talked about HL2's AI, the enemies will seek cover, they will attack in groups and attack from various angles to flush you out and will often times completely outflank you. They'll throw grenades at you, be proactive in their environment such as running over and using an unmanned minigun and enemy gunships will attempt (with much success) to shoot down missiles you fire at them. Your AI team mates will also give you (and each other) health and ammo and move out of the way when you need them to. Also important is that the AI does improve the further you move through the game, and having to duck for cover and use objects in the environment as cover becomes common place. To tell you the truth though, when you look at the quality of other aspects of the game, from the graphics and animation, the very well paced and varied gameplay, great sound and effects and not to mention the amazing integration of the physics engine, the AI is not up to the same sort of standard by comparison. This does not make it bad (it is certainly above average) but I don't think the AI is as good as it could be. Still, to outright call it bad and discredit the game because of it as some have done is totally ridiculous and shows premature, incorrect or (most likely) biased judgement.
Not to say that Halo's AI isn't without its flaws, for example, watch in awe as an elite in the open pointlessly dodges from side to side as you simply circle round back and pump round after round into him until he's dead. This sort of dodging shit may work when your ducking behind cover but in the open it's pretty stupid. Then there's also the small covenant grunts who will often turn around run away in the middle of a fire fight, pretty stupid as they're simply mowed down like grass afterward.
The fact is, despite what bullshit people may have talked about HL2's AI, the enemies will seek cover, they will attack in groups and attack from various angles to flush you out and will often times completely outflank you. They'll throw grenades at you, be proactive in their environment such as running over and using an unmanned minigun and enemy gunships will attempt (with much success) to shoot down missiles you fire at them. Your AI team mates will also give you (and each other) health and ammo and move out of the way when you need them to. Also important is that the AI does improve the further you move through the game, and having to duck for cover and use objects in the environment as cover becomes common place. To tell you the truth though, when you look at the quality of other aspects of the game, from the graphics and animation, the very well paced and varied gameplay, great sound and effects and not to mention the amazing integration of the physics engine, the AI is not up to the same sort of standard by comparison. This does not make it bad (it is certainly above average) but I don't think the AI is as good as it could be. Still, to outright call it bad and discredit the game because of it as some have done is totally ridiculous and shows premature, incorrect or (most likely) biased judgement.
Sorry, I've lost count the amount of times a grunt would find itself at a disadvanatge, mutter something stupid that quickly gets old and just simply run away only to be mowed down from behind. They don't even back up and fire in retreat, they just turn and get running. I don't consider that a sign of good AI, just a cheap - 'if disadvantage = true then run' function. Halo's challenge and by extension decent AI comes in areas where there is lots of cover for enemies to hide behind and simply go about the fire-cover-fire-cover routine while the shield system leads to long drawn out firefights.
arhra
Member
Actually, in Halo 2, that seems to be a pretty decent survival tactic for them - they seem to have thicker armour on their backs, whereas from the front, you can easily pick them off with a single headshot... (wouldn't be surprised if it was by design, i know if /i/ was designing armour for the cowardly little buggers, i'd make it thicker on the back). Of course, running still doesn't work very well, those stubby little legs can only waddle so fast... poor things
er...
<on topic>
I haven't got HL2, but it's really, really making me want to spend money i don't have on a new PC to play it...
</on topic>
Hmm... what you describe is all good and well, but that's more the brilliance of game design then of AI. And even then its subjective.
More to the point... most of my difficulty lies not with elites but with brutes.. who don't have shields to recharge... but can instead take 2 full plasma clips (to the point of overheating) from their own plasma rifles at point blank range...
and after I'm done overheating they'll kick my ass six ways to sunday just because I so often expect them to be dead (and am effectively ambushed after I run outta ammo) when they're not.
More to the point... most of my difficulty lies not with elites but with brutes.. who don't have shields to recharge... but can instead take 2 full plasma clips (to the point of overheating) from their own plasma rifles at point blank range...
and after I'm done overheating they'll kick my ass six ways to sunday just because I so often expect them to be dead (and am effectively ambushed after I run outta ammo) when they're not.
Unison said:
Ha, the Valve test machine was a 3.0 GHz P4/ 1 gb ram and a 9800 Pro! So, you're doing even better.
The loading issues really are a big deal, I think. Most of the recent FPS titles I've played have all managed to avoid loading problems. Far Cry and Doom 3 each featured a decent chunk of loading prior to each level...but each level was very large and would last for quite a while. Halo 2's is way beyond that even, and only features one (very nice looking) load screen and the rest of the game just plays out. Even Killzone handled loading better...
Now I'm playing HL2, and the game seems to run into 15-20 second load points all the time. Add in the HDD skipping (which is something I've only encountered as of late when using Doom 3's highest texture detail, but one notch down completely removes it) and my experience is most certainly not what I'd like. I just can't allow myself to forget about the technical flaws. When I think of the game, those pop into my head first. THAT'S a very bad thing and is exactly what I didn't want to happen.
I will give them props for the type of load screen that they chose. One thing that pissed me off so much about the loading in Deus Ex IW was the fact that they threw up a specific load screen per load point. HL2's loading system still manages to keep you 'in the game".
Sadly, it doesn't sound as if this problem or the skipping problem really improve on faster hardware. People with machines well beyond mine have the same issues...just with faster framerates all around. I really have to wonder if that damn GCF file is at fault? Was that really the most optimal method of accessing the content?
Oh, and I wish Halo didn't have to come up in here...
Halo is about combat. Halo's combat mechanics are leaps and bounds above virtually every FPS on the market.
Half-Life 2 is about the experience and the game needs to play differently as a result. I would have really liked a recharging shield ala Halo, though (make the HEV suit a recharging shield). Then again, the combat is paced very differently in HL2...so that might not have worked out. Maybe they could have taken the Killzone approach? Use a recharging life bar that only recharges a certain amount (at a slow rate). So, if you take a lot of damage...waiting for a bit will garner you about half a life bar.
boredJonathan
Member
After getting to a much later stage in the game,xabre said:
fighting alongside squadmates in City 17
While I'll assume the biased slam was intended elsewhere, (as I have tried to be pretty even handed, as I've said), for me, the AI is not impressive. As this is a First Person Shooter I like for my enemies to be a bit more challenging. Again, could be personal taste, but this is why I was knocking the game for it. Also, I've never said, "OH NOES SELL YOUR PC HL2 DOOMED!!!!ONEONE!!!", and atempted to discredit the game. It's a fantastic game!
Fighting my way through the prison was amazing. Although the damn Ant Lion things would always crowd into the way I wanted to go.
Also, while many have made the excellent point that Halo's AI is based in large part around the recharging shields, that is definately not all. It's not just that the enemies are aware of their damage, its that they are aware of their surroundings. I just don't see the same awareness in these Combine Soldiers. This game tends to rely much more on the overwhelm them approach.
Which was a large part of the prison level. How many waves did you need to take out, at 2 different spots?
boredJonathan
Member
dark10x said:
IAWTP 100%!
Thank you for saying what I have been trying to get at. I know that these games are different approaches to playstyles in FPS. This has unfortunately derailed into an AI discussion, which was not what I meant for it to be. It was just my personal preference... I know that HL2 is more about moving quick and trying to survive, while taking the time to explore when the action slows down. And that Halo 2 is more about the combat. I still think the AI leaves something to be desired, in it's own style. I'm not asking for Halo 2's exact AI. It wouldn't work as many have already pointed out.
I just wanted to show why I was having trouble saying Game of the Year for this. Not to say that it is not a fantastic game. But my personal desire for better AI, coupled with, as you said, the Loading and the random stuttering with sounds..
Well... like I said IAWTP.
johnjohnson
Member
Can I play Half Life 2 with a gamepad on PC?
disclaimer: this is a serious question!
disclaimer: this is a serious question!
johnjohnson
Member
dark10x said:
That's great! Thank you!
I hope my PC is good enough to play the game well.
IAWTP who said that HL2's AI seems inferior because the enemies can take much less damage.
I had one encounter when playing last night where I was being a complete dope, crouched behind a shield, while a bunch of enemies were at the other end of the area (it was one of those places with a machine gun for you to use). I was trying to cycle to my grenades, but was talking to my roommate, so I took a second or two longer than normal.
The bad guys (there were 4 of them I think) split into two groups and snuck up alongside me, two in front of me & two behind me. I killed them, of course, but even the grunts are operating with decent AI.
They still use grenades, split up, etc... The game just hasn't been paced like Halo 2 so far... or like the Marines level in HL1 for that matter.
I had one encounter when playing last night where I was being a complete dope, crouched behind a shield, while a bunch of enemies were at the other end of the area (it was one of those places with a machine gun for you to use). I was trying to cycle to my grenades, but was talking to my roommate, so I took a second or two longer than normal.
The bad guys (there were 4 of them I think) split into two groups and snuck up alongside me, two in front of me & two behind me. I killed them, of course, but even the grunts are operating with decent AI.
They still use grenades, split up, etc... The game just hasn't been paced like Halo 2 so far... or like the Marines level in HL1 for that matter.
I haven't gotten far enough into it to comment on the story, but the presentation of the game and the mood of the environments is awesome. So far it's paced like an action movie, with you running around from start to finish, and I have to say that I generally don't care about stories in action films.
SomeDude said:
I'm not very far at all, but I don't think the story is disappointing. The game doesn't directly give the story to the player. Pretty much you gotta infer what the hell is happening based on what people, stuff you've read on walls, and any knowledge you have from HL1. Pretty much the only thing I'm asking myself is "why"? It's the small touches too... like the lambada symbols you see that have become like a mark for the resistance and point out escape routes for people fleeing. You're never told that's what they are and used for, but you can make the connection if you look.
No one seems to be paying much attention to the hardware posts, but ill try again...
Do you need a current gen card (6800, X800 etc) to play the game at max settings or are last gen cards (5900XT & 9800pro) enough? (Assuming 3gig plus CPU & 512 meg of ram)
If i have to get a PCIe motherboard to play it as its meant to be i dont think i can stretch the wallet that far this side of 2005.
Do you need a current gen card (6800, X800 etc) to play the game at max settings or are last gen cards (5900XT & 9800pro) enough? (Assuming 3gig plus CPU & 512 meg of ram)
If i have to get a PCIe motherboard to play it as its meant to be i dont think i can stretch the wallet that far this side of 2005.
They just released an AGP version of my card, the GeForce 6600, which runs the game awesomely (I'd guess over 60fps w/ 2xAA). It's about $200, which makes it just about the best price/performance tradeoff you can find.
http://gear.ign.com/articles/566/566615p1.html
http://gear.ign.com/articles/566/566615p1.html
To those of you with the skipping, have you tried the 4.12B ATI drivers? I had the beta 4.09 in my computer before, and I kept on getting the same type of skipping (Which I thought was the hdd) in man sections of the game. However, I went to the 4.12B drivers and not only did my in game fps go up, but the skipping is gone. Im using a 9800PRO and I actually only have 512MB PC3200 ram.
I agree with dark about the loading zones. This is actually my biggest complaint so far. The AI hasn't been horrible nor great in the early stages (I'm playing on normal), and honestly I didn't think it would best halo 2 ai as we are looking at two different types of games. But back to the loading, it just pulls me out of the game. The game is dripping with atmosphere, and it pulls you in easily. But as soon as you get hooked another damn loading point comes up. It's counterproductive, and very disappointing, to the experience the game is trying to create by having a game so rich in atmosphere constantly pull you out like this. The original Half Life didn't pull me in the same way, so I guess the loading zones didn't bother me as much (They still did though). But in HL2 i'm really starting to get pissed off when these loading zones pop up. Not only because they are pulling me out of this awesome experiences at intervals between levels, but also since I never know when they are going to happen. When I jump out of a window. When I'm running past an alleyway. I had hoped Valve would have figured out a better way to handle level loading in Half Life 2.
I know Valve wanted HL2 to be referred to as the best PC game of all time. But I'm not sure how you can bestow such an honor to a game which constantly rips you out of the experience level upon level.
Back to Halo 2 vs Half Life 2 for a second, it's extremely hard to even compare the two games. They are in the same genre, but vastly different experiences. It's almost like comparing Mario Kart vs Gran Turismo. They are both racing games but that is about where the similarities end.
I agree with dark about the loading zones. This is actually my biggest complaint so far. The AI hasn't been horrible nor great in the early stages (I'm playing on normal), and honestly I didn't think it would best halo 2 ai as we are looking at two different types of games. But back to the loading, it just pulls me out of the game. The game is dripping with atmosphere, and it pulls you in easily. But as soon as you get hooked another damn loading point comes up. It's counterproductive, and very disappointing, to the experience the game is trying to create by having a game so rich in atmosphere constantly pull you out like this. The original Half Life didn't pull me in the same way, so I guess the loading zones didn't bother me as much (They still did though). But in HL2 i'm really starting to get pissed off when these loading zones pop up. Not only because they are pulling me out of this awesome experiences at intervals between levels, but also since I never know when they are going to happen. When I jump out of a window. When I'm running past an alleyway. I had hoped Valve would have figured out a better way to handle level loading in Half Life 2.
I know Valve wanted HL2 to be referred to as the best PC game of all time. But I'm not sure how you can bestow such an honor to a game which constantly rips you out of the experience level upon level.
Back to Halo 2 vs Half Life 2 for a second, it's extremely hard to even compare the two games. They are in the same genre, but vastly different experiences. It's almost like comparing Mario Kart vs Gran Turismo. They are both racing games but that is about where the similarities end.
PhatSaqs said:
Exactly. They are both games in first person going for an atmospheric experience. And on that stage I would say Metroid Prime 2 succeeds more than Half Life 2 since MP2 doesn't break up the experience every five minutes or so with loading points.
Right now, I would say Half Life 2 is a solid 8/10 game. If it didn't have all those loading points this game would easily be 9.5+/10. But in a game trying so hard to encompass you within the world, Valve made a huge oversight. I dunno, maybe I'll get more used to them the more I play. I hope so. But I suppose this is how Valve get the game to look and run so well. They could segement all the levels into tiny chunks, loading each one at a time, so it didn't bog down your sysetm.
PanopticBlue
Member
Mrbob said:
Which is GT and which is MK?
boredJonathan
Member
Mrbob said:
Agreed. I would be easily able to overlook all of my other nitpicks if it were not for being constantly ripped out of the game world to sit and stare at LODAING...
With those loading it's definately an 8/10, so far.
Yeah, the loading is a real bitch. So much so that my copy of Metroid Prime 2 may end up getting playtime today instead. At least I know that I'll never see a loading screen and I'll have my 60 fps...
I LOVE the game content of HL2, but the technical problems are just horrible and really killing my experience. I mean, people were worried about framerate and what kind of grahpics card they'd need...but the game has no problems in those areas. I never expected loading and stuttering to be a problem and it's really disappointing.
I LOVE the game content of HL2, but the technical problems are just horrible and really killing my experience. I mean, people were worried about framerate and what kind of grahpics card they'd need...but the game has no problems in those areas. I never expected loading and stuttering to be a problem and it's really disappointing.
Haha, I figured someone would repost that. I was making it as a joke, but it spawned its own discussion.
Doesn't have any impact on how I feel about the loading areas. I know you love the game. Heck, I think HL2 is great. But the loading zones detract from its overall experience.
Doesn't have any impact on how I feel about the loading areas. I know you love the game. Heck, I think HL2 is great. But the loading zones detract from its overall experience.
GashPrex said:
But the example game goes both ways and goes on forever. I've also had my 'hog drivers in Halo 2 repeatedly run into walls and up banks, do the old Austin Powers 100 point turn to get back on track, run me over when I'm in a Ghost. I've had enemies A.I. not get "turned on" despite my rather noisy approach and tendency to snipe the guy standing next to them, all sorts of shit. Great A.I. in both games overall, issues in both as well.
boredJonathan
Member
TheDuce22 said:
Or someone is (most likely) biased.
Mrbob said:
No, I agree. Loading hasn't taken me out of the game in the way it has some folks, but it does blow. I was just wondering about the AI > all point. It's worth considering, and I've always been upset whenever people (erroneously) assume we are nearing visual cielings but never address the wide open room for AI improvement.
Rogerkiller
Member
Anyone who says that H2 is better than HL2 is seriously ill.....really......