K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Fixed.
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Halo |OT12| Last One Out, Get the Lights
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
The Lamonster
Member
YourExWife
Member
See Ryan's post. I thought Unicorns and Halo 4 had an obvious connection. Surely not any less relevant than the Zelda post orgy.
Pre-jetpacks, map designers would build maps with specific movement routes in mind, to facilitate certain sight lines, choke points and flanking routes. Post jetpack, a lot of that intent goes out the window.
Imagine if we had jetpacks on Lockout in Halo 2. I don't think we'd hear a lot about those great jumps people still talk about, or how well designed the map was. People would just be jetpacking between buildings and short circuiting the intended flow of the map. When I was making maps for Reach, I'd build the map with specific movement in mind. Then I'd think of what would happen if jet packs were in the mix, and get filled with despair.
One man's freedom of movement is another's thwarting of the map flow. Personally, it's up there with armor lock in terms of damaging the gameplay.
Can we get banned for downloading and playing it?
Pop
Member
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Just reading the Halo 4 stat guide. I think Frankie had the wrong back pack in school and was bullied because of it.
Still a sore issue?
Still a sore issue?
Reason a lot of people like it is because they can't see the way it breaks maps. To them its LOL IM BOOBY FETTA.
Im on my phone and busy so hopefully others will lay it out for you. I'll do some basics.
Alot it is unfairness. If everyone had jetpacks by default it wouldn't be as bad. But now, if I choose PV, and someone chooses jetpack they can skip intended map routes. I.e. Up the levels in Haven. While i have to find a ramp.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
The many ways in which the jetpack is bad has been discussed into the ground here. I don't know how you can say it hasn't been talked about.
The Lamonster
Member
I understand your point, but wouldn't this only apply if everyone had jetpacks? Choosing the jetpack as your AA buys you freedom of movement. However, you are missing out on other freedoms like stealth, wallhacks and shields. It's a give and take, i.e. balance.
This argument is like complaining that plasma grenades are unfair because they stick to vehicles.
Sorry, I kind of dropped out of Halo during the Reach days.
No? It applies if anyone has a jetpack.
Take Relic.
One dude on the attacking team has jetpack. Most of the map design goes right out the window as they jetpack up to grab the flag.
And that is the bad design of winning a game in the menus. Halo's combat until Reach was always about the player's skill on the battlefield, not about what ability they choose to spawn with.
An opportunity cost being introduced does not magically bestow balance onto a mechanic. Comparing it to largely-hated abilities like Promethean Vision, Active Camo, loadout plasma grenades, and the Hardlight Shield, all of which many players here want removed because of how much they interfere with Halo's core tenets, isn't doing you any favors. That give and take works when the options aren't egregiously broken, like choosing your rifle. That's fine. Abilities that allow you to completely bypass the designers' intended routes? Not so much. I say this as a jetpack user. I use it because I know how useful it can be to break intended map flow with it.
Yeah that give and take thing with the AA's is the reason many here hate that they were implemented. Took equal starts as core principle of Halo and pooped on it.
This one sentence is a perfect summary of what went wrong with Halo, from Reach and now Halo 4.
No.
The Lamonster
Member
Relic is a great example to use. Couldn't the defensive team just counter by having someone guard the front of the base? The difference is that without jetpacks, no one had to guard that area because it was impossible to reach. But with jetpacks, you'd need to guard that area. Not sure I see a major difference in gameplay or map design here.
The so-called "victims" - the map designers whose work is apparently pissed on by the jetpack ability, could just give the defenders easy access to a sword to counter jetpackers.
If you slip, bad guys get the flag. Just like every other flag game before and after jetpacks. Would Waterworks games play differently if there were no Banshees on the map? Of course. But it's still Halo with or without Banshees. The only thing that changes is the strategy.
And I completely understand the anti-jetpack camp if they don't like armor abilities as a whole. But to single out jetpacking over the other AA's just doesn't make sense to me. And I think we can all agree that ever since the addition of AA's there should be some playlists that don't use them. "Classic" playlists should have been in Halo 3, Reach and Halo 4 from day one.
I'm honestly at a loss for words. The entire dynamic of the game changes the second that flag is off the pedestal. Relic with jetpacks would be broken as fuck.
I think it's clear that you do not get it, and will never agree. But the reason jetpack is singled out is because it damages map flow.
AA's like camo and armor lock only damage combat. Which is why they are also not beloved by many.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Guys, I just had fun playing Halo 4
Team Regicide
on Complex.
I feel dirty.
Team Regicide
on Complex.
I feel dirty.
The Lamonster
Member
Take my banshee example. How do flying vehicles not break maps, while jetpacks do? It's all the same. If there is one type of threat, counter it. Jetpack dudes flying to your flag? Better pay attention and shoot them down before they get there. You're still defending your flag and it's still Halo, just as before.
ncsuDuncan
Member
You're crazy. Next you'll tell me Zanzibar, High Ground, and Colossus wouldn't have major differences in gameplay or map design if jetpacks were added. Adapt.
Whoa, when did you unlock the ability to spawn in a Banshee?
Flying vehicles are large and can't be used with the same degree of finesse and nuance. Flying vehicles are only on very specific maps that are designed with them in mind. Flying vehicles can't be spawned at the press of a button at any point on the map. There is a leadup and cooldown on player action when entering and exiting flying vehicles where the user is vulnerable. You can't fly a Banshee directly into the core of someone's base on 90% of the maps they're on.
Because the designers 1) limit the number and frequency of Banshees on the map and 2) populate the map with a balanced number of anti-Banshee ordnance, so those using and and defending it know the pros/cons risks/rewards of doing so*. Banshees are also balanced out through their physical and audio characteristics. (duncan-inspired edit) And you don't spawn in a Banshee, nor use them on small maps. These things are not the same.
*or used to know, until Halo 4 was released.
I'm getting hyped for team reggie. can't wait til I'm free enough to play it
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
I could see that mode working on Complex since you have to "kill the VIP" and it would reduce roof camping.
Edit: Side note and something I thought I'd share. Someone made a time lapse montage from my campus for this fall. it's pretty cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TCisqQsCHcw
Gonna miss that school after I graduate next week.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Cause you can't spawn with banshees, and they're on a 120 second (or whatever) respawn timer. Plus taking player behavior into account, people don't usually use the banshee just to get to a high point. They hold onto it as long as possible, trying to rack up kills.
Ah yeah, that's a good point. Jetpack is definitely most aggravating on small maps. Larger maps tend to be more open, and then jetpackers just make themselves as easy target.
I want you to like this game more than I've wanted you to do anything ever. TP was such a great Zelda game to me and I want more people to have the same enjoyment as I did.
One of those games I can remember starting and have vivid memories of the second I finished it.
ncsuDuncan
Member
Jetpack is really fun to use, but it shouldn't be an Armor Ability. Double jump might work as an AA without totally breaking map flow, but that's it.
Jetpack should be a vehicle/weapon hybrid. Combine the AA pickup item with the Flagnum.
- Hold X to pick it up. It takes up a weapon slot.
- Limited fuel. Hold LT to thrust (like a vehicle boost). Can't throw grenades.
- Limited flagnum ammo. Press RT to fire, X to reload. (Or whatever your control scheme uses.)
- Press Y to switch to a normal weapon, but you can't use jetpack until you switch back with Y.
- Once the ammo is depleted, replace it with a new weapon (hold X to pick up).
Jetpack should be a vehicle/weapon hybrid. Combine the AA pickup item with the Flagnum.
- Hold X to pick it up. It takes up a weapon slot.
- Limited fuel. Hold LT to thrust (like a vehicle boost). Can't throw grenades.
- Limited flagnum ammo. Press RT to fire, X to reload. (Or whatever your control scheme uses.)
- Press Y to switch to a normal weapon, but you can't use jetpack until you switch back with Y.
- Once the ammo is depleted, replace it with a new weapon (hold X to pick up).
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
The minute I had to control the sword with waggle I threw my Wii back into the box and gave it to my sister in law.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Bring bucks ODST squad into the Halo 5 and add a ODST firefight mode that "replicates" the campaign from Halo 5 location to location and just call put it under the fiction of clean up Jsquads
SpOps can stay along side but either craft it as a dedicated co-op mini campaign or at least ensure it has multiple unique environments and objectives that are more than press switch kill baddies. I'm sure Ellis and the team want to push it as far as they can and honestly writing ragnarok into the fiction was is great. At its core SpOps is amazing I just wish it could be expanded upon
SpOps can stay along side but either craft it as a dedicated co-op mini campaign or at least ensure it has multiple unique environments and objectives that are more than press switch kill baddies. I'm sure Ellis and the team want to push it as far as they can and honestly writing ragnarok into the fiction was is great. At its core SpOps is amazing I just wish it could be expanded upon
The Lamonster
Member
That's a great point (that at least three of you just brought to my attention
).Still - I think a lot of this comes down to opinion. You guys keep using the word "broken." Broken implies something is not working. I think multiplayer still works just fine, you guys just don't like it. If there was some unbalanced gameplay exploit everyone would be using it 100% of the time and be at level 130 by now.
Hence it boils down to opinion. And it's fine to disagree about these things. I have a ton of fun blasting fools while jetpacking or being the first one on my team to reach a hill because I took advantage of the jetpack. If it annoys you all when I do that stuff, that's fine. It annoys me when I can't see the camo guy who just sniped me. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing or start calling camo or sniper rifles "broken."
Interesting ideas like this make me sad that the custom game options are so bare bones this time around
We should be able to test this! And I'm sure we'd have fun doing so
bobs...onGaf
Member
Sorry Kittens Andy and Robbert, ended up on the phone longer than I thought!
Camo snipers have been widely regarded as a ridiculously annoying combination that shouldn't be made possible via loadout options for years now, so again, not the greatest example if you're trying to paint jetpacks in a positive light. I'll call a spade a spade and say that when something disrupts the core of Halo's systems to a significant degree, it's broken. Camo snipers, camo boltshots, jetpacks allowing exploitative movement on maps that weren't explicitly designed with them in mind, whatever. You're free to be tolerant of those mechanics, but don't be surprised when other people aren't as forgiving of shitty emergent player tactics.
Nobody has stopped playing because of jetpacks, that doesn't mean they can't express how they feel it ignores classic, core philosophies of Halo multiplayer. There is a middle ground between loving something (or even liking it) and breaking a disc in half.
Nobody has stopped playing because of jetpacks, that doesn't mean they can't express how they feel it ignores classic, core philosophies of Halo multiplayer. There is a middle ground between loving something (or even liking it) and breaking a disc in half.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
#whippedSorry Kittens Andy and Robbert, ended up on the phone longer than I thought!
The Lamonster
Member
Fair enough. In my ~60 hours of Halo 4 multiplayer I haven't seen those issues in much frequency, or at least enough for it to be a problem. When I'm killed by a camo boltshot guy in a cave, I stay away from that cave for a few rounds. If it's an objective game and I HAVE to go back into that cave, I'll make sure to equip promethean vision to prepare. Adapt and survive!
squidhands
Member
Complete this with a lengthy animation as your Spartan struggles to put on a full backpack.
Also, if it's going to be considered a vehicle, make it disable when shot with a Plasma overcharge. That alone would have balanced out it's horribleness in most occasions.
ncsuDuncan
Member
That's a great point (that at least three of you just brought to my attention
Still - I think a lot of this comes down to opinion. You guys keep using the word "broken." Broken implies something is not working. I think multiplayer still works just fine, you guys just don't like it. If there was some unbalanced gameplay exploit everyone would be using it 100% of the time and be at level 130 by now.
Hence it boils down to opinion. And it's fine to disagree about these things. I have a ton of fun blasting fools while jetpacking or being the first one on my team to reach a hill because I took advantage of the jetpack. If it annoys you all when I do that stuff, that's fine. It annoys me when I can't see the camo guy who just sniped me. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop playing or start calling camo or sniper rifles "broken."
Jetpack isn't "broken", it's working exactly as designed. We're just disagreeing with that design decision.
I agree - jetpack doesn't "break" multiplayer. It breaks map flow, which changes the way a multiplayer game plays out. We don't like that change, because it makes the game harder to predict and creates uneven movement options between players. The opportunity cost is lopsided and the only fix is to pick jetpack yourself and become part of the problem. Yes, it's an opinion. I like games that have a deliberate, somewhat predictable map flow (like Halo 1-3). You don't seem to feel the same way about map flow, so you're happy with jetpack's influence.
Whoa bro, I was just reminiscing about high school.
:lol
The Lamonster
Member
Very true. I'll consider myself lucky for enjoying the jetpack mechanic.
I really am very happy with Halo 4 overall, more so than Reach. The things I really hate about H4 are all the game-breaking bugs (lag included). And most of 343's design decisions that bother me relate to UI and playlist configurations as opposed to actual gameplay and sandbox elements.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Re: Jetpacks.
From what I'm seeing here both groups are saying two different things that can be equally correct. Group 1 (majority) notes that jetpacks break map flow and design, which is 100% correct for maps before Reach (maps weren't designed for jetpack) and could be correct for newer maps.
Group 2 is saying you CAN design maps with jetpacks in mind. I don't think he's trying to say Halo 3/2/1 maps work fine with jetpacks, I think he's saying it's possible for the designers to make maps that work with jetpacks.
The issue seems to be that people disagree that Reach and 4 maps were designed with jetpack in mind. It almost seems like they designed the Halo 4 and Reach maps, then added jetpacks to the mix, not vice-versa. This seems to be the problem. The other problem is actually trying to design a map that works with jetpacks. To do so, generally it has to be an indoor map (so you can use floor to ceiling walls to limit jetpack movement). Any kind of outdoor map is broken by the height at which a person can fly and where they can land.
As Duncan noted the jetpack works exactly as it should, the issue is more the gameplay and design around it. Overall jetpack just introduces too many map design challenges and not enough benefits to outweigh the drastic change in flow. My two cents.
From what I'm seeing here both groups are saying two different things that can be equally correct. Group 1 (majority) notes that jetpacks break map flow and design, which is 100% correct for maps before Reach (maps weren't designed for jetpack) and could be correct for newer maps.
Group 2 is saying you CAN design maps with jetpacks in mind. I don't think he's trying to say Halo 3/2/1 maps work fine with jetpacks, I think he's saying it's possible for the designers to make maps that work with jetpacks.
The issue seems to be that people disagree that Reach and 4 maps were designed with jetpack in mind. It almost seems like they designed the Halo 4 and Reach maps, then added jetpacks to the mix, not vice-versa. This seems to be the problem. The other problem is actually trying to design a map that works with jetpacks. To do so, generally it has to be an indoor map (so you can use floor to ceiling walls to limit jetpack movement). Any kind of outdoor map is broken by the height at which a person can fly and where they can land.
As Duncan noted the jetpack works exactly as it should, the issue is more the gameplay and design around it. Overall jetpack just introduces too many map design challenges and not enough benefits to outweigh the drastic change in flow. My two cents.
Not a Jellyfish
but I am a sheep
343 has struck gold with Team Regicide, holy shit that is fun.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Alright, I'll give it another try, just for you. But only if I can find the GC version for less than $20.
I hate the waggle. It made playing TP so annoying.
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