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Halo |OT8| A Salt on the Control Room
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
Portugeezer
Member
Nice, jetpack lasts a lot shorter now.
So I just saw a transport ship try to take off while being shot by purple motor shots and crashing into the ground while troops on the ground were having an all out battle from all 3 factions.....please for the love of all that is good in the world make a Halo game like this!
Human v Storm v Forerunner!
Human v Storm v Forerunner!
nillapuddin
Member
dude, I think I love you.
your awesome, thanks a ton
idk how I was so oblivious that my curse ID would yield me a code
Diablohead
Member
Took a trip to my local Tesco earlier to buy energy drink and dinner when, while browsing the game section came across this beauty for £5:
£5 for a nice looking tee and (optional) £5 off tesco's asking price for halo 4 at release? yes plz.
£5 for a nice looking tee and (optional) £5 off tesco's asking price for halo 4 at release? yes plz.
Zoso Achilles
Member
Auto flag-pickup by itself isn't that big of a deal. It's annoying for sure, why can't a player be trusted to push a button on the flag, but it's not game breaking. However, couple that with not being able to drop the flag, and you've got yourself a fucking problem. What does this add to the game? Seriously, what? It for sure takes a lot of strategy out of a flag run. Remember how on beaver creek you can throw the flag out the top window to a teammate? Too bad, you can't do that anymore. You accidentily walk over the flag stand while clearing out the base with rockets/shotgun or anything more valuable than a 6sk blooming pistol? Too bad, hold this flag and terribad weapon until you die. Icing on the cake, the entire enemy team knows where you are at all times, enjoy!
I can't fathom how anyone can defend these changes, you're fooling yourself. People at PAX playing the game: you're haveing fun, I get that. Heckfu said it may have been the most fun in a CTF he's ever had. Tell me this though: would the fun be diminished if auto flag-pickup wasn't on (you had to hold the action button like the last 11 years) and you were able to drop the flag? I hear people saying it makes it more team oriented, but which aspects specifically contribute to that?
I want flag running and to not duel wield the flag, but that's not actually a huge problem. I would be ok with picking up the flag at my own discretion and duel wielding it with the pistol. If the flag carrier speed is default walk speed (like some people are saying it is) then flag juggleing is not needed, that's fine. If there is a waypoint over my head at all times and people think that adds to the team aspect of CTF, fine, I'll deal with it.
JUST LET ME DROP THE FUCKING FLAG
The point of all of these additions is to try to make CTF/objective more popular, and I think it won't, it will just push people away. I know for sure I won't be going near the fucking flag if this garbage remains. And no custom options? lol priceless, masterful troll.
I can't fathom how anyone can defend these changes, you're fooling yourself. People at PAX playing the game: you're haveing fun, I get that. Heckfu said it may have been the most fun in a CTF he's ever had. Tell me this though: would the fun be diminished if auto flag-pickup wasn't on (you had to hold the action button like the last 11 years) and you were able to drop the flag? I hear people saying it makes it more team oriented, but which aspects specifically contribute to that?
I want flag running and to not duel wield the flag, but that's not actually a huge problem. I would be ok with picking up the flag at my own discretion and duel wielding it with the pistol. If the flag carrier speed is default walk speed (like some people are saying it is) then flag juggleing is not needed, that's fine. If there is a waypoint over my head at all times and people think that adds to the team aspect of CTF, fine, I'll deal with it.
JUST LET ME DROP THE FUCKING FLAG
+10
The point of all of these additions is to try to make CTF/objective more popular, and I think it won't, it will just push people away. I know for sure I won't be going near the fucking flag if this garbage remains. And no custom options? lol priceless, masterful troll.
Auto pick up is pretty terrible.
Imagine you have rockets and you're running with the flag carrier, he dies and the flag flies towards you... You auto pick it up, you lose your rockets, and you lose the cap.
Auto pick up and the constant waypoint over the flag carriers head are the biggest two problems I see within the new system.
nillapuddin
Member
Took a trip to my local Tesco earlier to buy energy drink and dinner when, while browsing the game section came across this beauty for £5:
£5 for a nice looking tee and (optional) £5 off tesco's asking price for halo 4 at release? yes plz.
Off to Tesco tomorrow then lol. Thanks for the heads up
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Fourth row at MGS Kojima panel. Halo to come later.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Nice explanation there :]
Does anyone want to explain to me how not having to press RB/"button" is a negative for Halo when that's how it was in the best and most competitive Halo game? If you don't want to pick up the flag, don't walk over it. Problem?
The problem is not being able to drop the flag mixed with that, not the auto pick-up itself.
Diablohead
Member
Personally the new flag system sounds great to me, it also kind of reminds me of quake flag capping where the holder can still move and attack like a normal player, at least in my eyes it is.
Also makes you think about the flag more IMO, don't go willy nilly jumping into it.
Also makes you think about the flag more IMO, don't go willy nilly jumping into it.
You're incorrect because that's not how it worked in Halo 2.
Quake is much different.
No waypoint, you can use any weapon, and the movement mechanics in Quake alone make it entirely different.
So fucking jelly. New (proper) MGS!!
nillapuddin
Member
it is IMPERATIVE I hear what you have to say after, PM if you must, plz
Did I mention this was all happening as the day/night cycle was bringing up the sun behind the plane when it was getting shot down? So all you see is god rays come out of the mountain behind the huge war zone while the plane is going down and tanks and troops are shooting the hell out of each other. It was fucking amazing.
(Also use a proxy to get the beta)
"Everybody just stand back and see the sucker pick up the flag. He will be defenseless and his buddies are prolly doing something else."
Dead.
Shake Appeal
Member
You can't encourage engagement with objective gametypes solely by making victory dependent on greater teamwork; all that does is increase frustration among those few players who already cared about the objective, yet are unable to achieve it because everyone else in the game is still busily racking up kills and fucking about in party chat rather than going for victory. In this context, making teamwork essential makes the experience worse for those people who already cared about teamwork, and no different for anyone who didn't. In fact, I'd argue that with these changes to CTF you're even discouraging the latter group from changing their antisocial behaviour by making the opportunity cost of picking up the flag even higher than it was before. They can no longer drop it when things get hot; they can no longer switch back to that sweet power weapon they have stashed; and meanwhile they have a bullseye nailed to their forehead.
What you have to do, first of all, is make victory crucial. You have to make it so every player in a given game wants to win desperately, enough that they will stop racking up kills, fucking about in party chat, and work toward the end of winning the game. How do you do this?
1. Make the reward for winning games inherent and significant.
2. Make the punishment for losing games inherent and significant.
What's the most efficient way to do this?
Rank players according to their wins and losses, at least in some playlists. Tie their gaming self-worth and 'status' to their wins record, and they will try to win properly. When they try to win properly, they will use those things in the game that improve their chances of winning. Then you can fiddle with systems so that teamwork will better improve those chances.
Halo 4's overall design philosophy follows Call of Duty's in not caring about individual games (see also: drop-in, drop-out matchmaking), but rather the 'metagame' each player is engaged in with themselves. It's masturbatory. It's consolatory. "Oh well, my team lost, but I gained 325 points, so I can nearly unlock a skin for my light rifle. Progress!" Listen well: the ultimate objective for the average Halo 4 player will never be to get that vital third flag, it will be to get to SR-50 and beyond. Every reward system in the game is set up to encourage the latter, never the former, and there is no cost, none, for working towards the latter at the expense of the former.
Yes, you get +100 for scoring the flag. But doing anything and everything in this game nets you points. The white text reticle spam is near-constant. "You are doing great, kid. Keep it up. Focus on you. Do you. Good job. Assist! Distraction! Generic kill! You're doing it! It's all you, baby. Please keep playing and please don't pop in the new CoD, because the next carrot is right there." All of the rewards are relevant to the individual player and his successes, not his team and his team's successes. That is, the benefits of teamwork are only ancillary; it is much more fun and probably no less efficient to sit back and rack up medals for a few more generic kills rather than risking one's neck to hike a flag around with the entire enemy team on your tail and only a pistol for comfort. And guess which is more fun to do of an evening? Make activities inherently rewarding -- e.g., make it fun to hold the flag and have options as to what to do next, not locked into score-or-die -- and people will do those activities. But when other activities have roughly the same compensation and are also more fun, you go ahead and guess what happens.
I'm not saying the drop-in, drop-out, grind-your-XP-come-what-may 'metagame' approach is inherently worse; as CoD has shown, it's certainly a far better way of keeping players invested, and excels at keeping perennial losers from switching the game off in disgust (because the nature of a near-zero-sum competitive game implies a large number of players fall on the left side of the curve; you've met them; they're the ones with k/d ratios of 1.0 or below who went -17 in your last TS game).
But the cost of this approach is that individual games matter less and less. The long haul of points accrued and ranks ground becomes the aim, unless win bonuses are so disproportionately high that they outweigh not just the points-per-minute efficiency of lone-gunning it, but also the greater fun many (most?) people find in playing that way. Even then there is no stick for a loss, just the absence of a carrot.
And for a lot of us, that's not Halo. It switches the game from being a team sport (where winning is essential, and individual games are the measure of performance) to an individual exercise (where winning is inessential, and career-long 'XP' is the measure of performance), because almost all of the rewards are extrinsic to the individual game unless you are of the mindset that winning individual games is fun in its own right. And tough luck if you are possessed of that quaint and rapidly ageing notion, because matchmaking has yet to invent a way of sorting you apart from those who do not share it, or who see no benefit in playing in a way that benefits team rather than self, or who are actively trolling you.
(Unless it had playlists where individual games mattered, because team wins and team losses were inherently rewarding or punishing.
Hint: those playlists would be ranked.)
What you have to do, first of all, is make victory crucial. You have to make it so every player in a given game wants to win desperately, enough that they will stop racking up kills, fucking about in party chat, and work toward the end of winning the game. How do you do this?
1. Make the reward for winning games inherent and significant.
2. Make the punishment for losing games inherent and significant.
What's the most efficient way to do this?
Rank players according to their wins and losses, at least in some playlists. Tie their gaming self-worth and 'status' to their wins record, and they will try to win properly. When they try to win properly, they will use those things in the game that improve their chances of winning. Then you can fiddle with systems so that teamwork will better improve those chances.
Halo 4's overall design philosophy follows Call of Duty's in not caring about individual games (see also: drop-in, drop-out matchmaking), but rather the 'metagame' each player is engaged in with themselves. It's masturbatory. It's consolatory. "Oh well, my team lost, but I gained 325 points, so I can nearly unlock a skin for my light rifle. Progress!" Listen well: the ultimate objective for the average Halo 4 player will never be to get that vital third flag, it will be to get to SR-50 and beyond. Every reward system in the game is set up to encourage the latter, never the former, and there is no cost, none, for working towards the latter at the expense of the former.
Yes, you get +100 for scoring the flag. But doing anything and everything in this game nets you points. The white text reticle spam is near-constant. "You are doing great, kid. Keep it up. Focus on you. Do you. Good job. Assist! Distraction! Generic kill! You're doing it! It's all you, baby. Please keep playing and please don't pop in the new CoD, because the next carrot is right there." All of the rewards are relevant to the individual player and his successes, not his team and his team's successes. That is, the benefits of teamwork are only ancillary; it is much more fun and probably no less efficient to sit back and rack up medals for a few more generic kills rather than risking one's neck to hike a flag around with the entire enemy team on your tail and only a pistol for comfort. And guess which is more fun to do of an evening? Make activities inherently rewarding -- e.g., make it fun to hold the flag and have options as to what to do next, not locked into score-or-die -- and people will do those activities. But when other activities have roughly the same compensation and are also more fun, you go ahead and guess what happens.
I'm not saying the drop-in, drop-out, grind-your-XP-come-what-may 'metagame' approach is inherently worse; as CoD has shown, it's certainly a far better way of keeping players invested, and excels at keeping perennial losers from switching the game off in disgust (because the nature of a near-zero-sum competitive game implies a large number of players fall on the left side of the curve; you've met them; they're the ones with k/d ratios of 1.0 or below who went -17 in your last TS game).
But the cost of this approach is that individual games matter less and less. The long haul of points accrued and ranks ground becomes the aim, unless win bonuses are so disproportionately high that they outweigh not just the points-per-minute efficiency of lone-gunning it, but also the greater fun many (most?) people find in playing that way. Even then there is no stick for a loss, just the absence of a carrot.
And for a lot of us, that's not Halo. It switches the game from being a team sport (where winning is essential, and individual games are the measure of performance) to an individual exercise (where winning is inessential, and career-long 'XP' is the measure of performance), because almost all of the rewards are extrinsic to the individual game unless you are of the mindset that winning individual games is fun in its own right. And tough luck if you are possessed of that quaint and rapidly ageing notion, because matchmaking has yet to invent a way of sorting you apart from those who do not share it, or who see no benefit in playing in a way that benefits team rather than self, or who are actively trolling you.
(Unless it had playlists where individual games mattered, because team wins and team losses were inherently rewarding or punishing.
Hint: those playlists would be ranked.)
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Ohh, ok. Had a feeling I was remembering that wrong.. Either way, point still stands.
Point stands they can make the flag pickup a different button rather than it being the same as picking up a regular weapon. Auto pickup is just as awful as the terrible waypoint and inability to drop a flag.
Diablohead
Member
Don't walk over it. Unless there's a rocket launcher right next to it that you're trying to pick up, unless that's your only means of escape and you'll be dead unless you run closer to it, unless you're pushed into it by some fool driving a Ghost, unless you're strafing in a firefight and have a crummy magnum all of a sudden. Why remove player agency?
A flag should not be a bear trap that marks you for death and gimps you in a fight instead of just trapping your foot.
Assuming the flag doesn't bounce like it did in Halo:CE, You will be hard pressed to accidentally pick up the flag, but Auto Pickup doesn't sound like something anyone asked for, or that's needed.
Zoso Achilles
Member
No, auto pickup sucks. Consider this: you get into their base he take he flag, but there's someone defending it. You start to duel him; woops! You strafed over the flag stand! You lose! Fucking stupid. Stop defending this, I refuse to believe people are so incredibly stupid that they can't hold a button to pick up the flag.
This may have happened to you, actually. Have you ever played Boom ball in action sack? I had auto ball pickup, you you could be fighting someone then randomly pick up the ball. That is dumb and dysfunctional.
Shake Appeal
Member
P.S. Do you know what jerk-off asshole hyper-competitive players do when they can't preen and compare their Team Objective rank? They preen and compare their k/d instead.
Guess what playlist they don't play if they care about their k/d. And guess how they play in that playlist when k/d is what matters because there is nothing else.
R.I.P. Objective. Again.
Guess what playlist they don't play if they care about their k/d. And guess how they play in that playlist when k/d is what matters because there is nothing else.
R.I.P. Objective. Again.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Wow, that's a really good idea.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Auto pickup is really dumb when it ends up cursing you with an undroppable flag, but every other game that's had CTF ever has had auto pickups, including CE. I don't think it's a big difference either way under normal circumstances, but the commitment they put on flag carrying in 4 means that it shouldn't be there.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
I don't see them making a different button for it as a possibility nor do I see how that as awful as the waypoint and inability to drop the flag. I don't see how you can even put them in the same league in terms of the impact it'll have.. Agree to disagree I guess lol
Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing as this post can be argued both ways, but either way in the context of what I'm arguing.. couldn't agree more. (If you're only talking about the other bad additions)
Trust me, I get how it's stupid.. but I'm just simply trying to heal some wounds here. It wasn't a problem like that in Halo 1, I don't see it being a huge problem in Halo 4. That's all. And this is coming from a guy who played 3 hour long games of CTF on XBC because the kill times were so fast.. I'm sure many of you will find that whole idea I just said stupid, but the auto pick-up itself is seriously not a big problem like you guys are suggesting.
Zoso Achilles
Member
Why don't you just use the magnum in one of your classes instead of picking up a flag that locks you out of sprint, your AA and every other weapon in the game including grenades? I can't wait to hear 343 defend this in that panel, I should make some popcorn.I am pro mangum so anything which gives me that weapon is good
Edit:
Too bad in CE you can actually drop the flag and use your weapons, and in other games (CoD comes to mind first) picking up the flag doesn't lock you out of your weapons and equiptment, but sure, same thing right? Coupleing auto pickup with the inability to drop is a nightmare.
NobleGundam
Banned
Fixed
xxjuicesxx
Member
Hydranockz
Member
From what I gathered the panel consists of a 10 minute storytelling vidoc as well a discussion about the new MP gameplay elements.
They should just hire John Howard.
For those who don't know who John Howard is. He was the lead designer for Halo CE and Shadowrun.
He's the hero competitive FPS needs.
And the one we need right now.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
That's what Halo needs
More half-ass Shadowrun ideas
More half-ass Shadowrun ideas
For a second I though you were talking about a former Australian Prime Minister.
Confusion levels were high.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Did you read the post bro, I wasn't arguing for Halo 4's implementation of it. I agree.
Why you keep saying things that make me so jealous?
Reach's half-assed Shadowrun ideas were the fault of Sage, that bald guy with the really awesome beard. Instead of taking the elements from Shadowrun that were skillful, such as low aim assist and bullet magnetism, as well as fast movement, he included ideas and items from a class-based game. These types of games clash with the arcade style that Halo presents, and that's why they suck.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I've been swimming in jelly this entire weekend.
:lol for real
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
You're saying the same exact thing I am and it seems people aren't understanding the point that the problem isn't the auto pick-up..
The problem is the other shit like not being able to drop the flag mixed with the auto pick-up. The bigger problem here is that, not the auto pick-up.
- If you can drop the flag, the auto pick-up wouldn't be a problem..
- If you don't auto pick-up the flag, not being able to drop the flag would STILL be a huge problem.
Yeah. New Halo, a MGS announcement w/ Kojima, and Platinum Games with two upcoming games, all of them there at the same time.
The chances of that happening at future PAXes are...slim.
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