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Halo: Reach |OT6| There Are Those Who Said This Day Would Never Come
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
Shake Appeal
Member
I could swear I read someone around these parts predicting unforeseen consequences like this...bobs99 ... said:
Played a few more games tonight, was a bit better than yesterday, but overall I think I'm just tired of the game in general, hopefully the new maps can breathe some life back into it for me. Never thought I'd say this, but I prefer the 85% bloom to ZB, mainly because ZB without any other changes in movement speed, jump height, grenade damage, etc. is a frustrating experience at times.
I guess when you're donging on people at PAX constantly anything is good. =\
I guess when you're donging on people at PAX constantly anything is good. =\
Wish you were around to play in some of the GAF ZBS customs, I think it is a better experience and you probably would have liked it. I haven't played any of the Beta hoppersRamirez said:
consumed by Dark Souls
xxjuicesxx
Member
I liked the games we played today but have several comments.
-I don't like the fact the pistol is actually stronger than an DMR. Thats just dumb, it makes no sense.
-ZBZ messed up the balance that Bungie worked hard on, whether you like it or not its really there, the timings are just off for a lot of things because of the increased speed of kills
-I guess I've just grown into Reach and wanted changes next game.
-85% or maybe a little lower is what the Final TU playlist should be.
-Grown too used to shields popping as a signal of you're about to die, with the bleedthrough melees and headshots you forget about that stuff or just don't know when in a quick DMR battle.
-Way too many shitty objectives in that TU Beta. Shishka hard at work huh? Hire Juices.
-I fucking dong in that thing Regardless of Bloom/Lo/No-Bloom.
-I don't like the fact the pistol is actually stronger than an DMR. Thats just dumb, it makes no sense.
-ZBZ messed up the balance that Bungie worked hard on, whether you like it or not its really there, the timings are just off for a lot of things because of the increased speed of kills
-I guess I've just grown into Reach and wanted changes next game.
-85% or maybe a little lower is what the Final TU playlist should be.
-Grown too used to shields popping as a signal of you're about to die, with the bleedthrough melees and headshots you forget about that stuff or just don't know when in a quick DMR battle.
-Way too many shitty objectives in that TU Beta. Shishka hard at work huh? Hire Juices.
-I fucking dong in that thing Regardless of Bloom/Lo/No-Bloom.
Hearing on the podcast that they've intentionally left unpleasant stuff in there to gather feedback makes me hope that there's a good chance for a DMR-only/Pistol-only split for zero bloom gametypes in the finished product. I like how the zbDMR functions on small maps, and how the zbPistol functions on large maps, and that kind of split would be neat to see.Ramirez said:
I really need to spend more time with these settings, but midterms have kept me away from all distractions but GAF for the entire week (outside of the games resulting in the hilarity yesterday).
Deputy Moonman
Member
Dang. i was actually just getting on to say that I'm finally adjusting to the changes and really liking the beta hopper playlist. The pistol is good, but not as amazing as everyone makes it out to be. I have yet to see a game where someone ripped the other team a new one with the pistol. That could be because I'm not playing against the more talented players, but I am seeing multiple games where people have anywhere from 15-20 DMR kills. The pistol is finally useful for short range and a decent fill-in at mid range if you don't have access to a DMR or Needle Rifle. For the 85% bloom games, I'm always trying to find the Needle Rifle. For ZB I love having the DMR for most encounters, and the pistol as a back up for unexpected close encounters. My experience in the beta hopper playlist has only gone up and up since it was released.
Games like this where my team had 2 quitters off the bat would have never happened with vanilla settings:
http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/gamestats.aspx?gameid=818574303&player=XxDeputyMoonman
The pistol is always going to be handicapped with only an 8 bullet clip. You either have to be perfect with it or you're dead. Meanwhile, the DMR and Needle Rifle feel like they have an unlimited amount of ammo in comparison.
Games like this where my team had 2 quitters off the bat would have never happened with vanilla settings:
http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/gamestats.aspx?gameid=818574303&player=XxDeputyMoonman
The pistol is always going to be handicapped with only an 8 bullet clip. You either have to be perfect with it or you're dead. Meanwhile, the DMR and Needle Rifle feel like they have an unlimited amount of ammo in comparison.
Deputy Moonman
Member
I honestly haven't been on gaf all day, so I just went back and read this. You bring up some really good points that I hadn't previously considered. But I guess I don't understand why someone should be blamed for wanting to play a game that can be fun, barring the issue with quitters on a regular basis. And hey! I don't send dumb messages to anybody, lol. Well, once, to Dani, about something completely unrelated, but I regretted doing so immediately. What I meant about the competitive sports comment was that teams always have the same number of players. In Reach, teams rarely stay even in that respect. You're just an old man. I've heard your deep voice! You ain't foolin nobody 8)kylej said:
Shake Appeal
Member
*cheerful whistle*xxjuicesxx said:
This is a big concern I have when it comes to balance in a bloomless environment. Reach, by default, is more or less balanced. We may not necessarily like the way it plays, but it's pretty balanced nonetheless. Then the TU comes and changes the DMR, NR, and pistol and nothing else, those three weapons become the only ones anyone want to use (other than sniper/rockets/sword). The Focus Rifle suddenly becomes even less useful since it's harder to disrupt other players now. The Plasma Repeater and Rifle are still pretty useless. Basically it seems like 343 only wanted to focus on balancing a small subset of weapons to make them more powerful, without doing anything to other weapons to being them up to a similar level.xxjuicesxx said:
I hope it's still possible for individual weapons' damage and traits to be adjusted, but that seems less and less likely.
Hypertrooper
Member
It is nearly impossible to shoot a film like that size. Tbh. I won't really like to see a movie. But I guess I'm the only one.wwm0nkey said:
The Real Napsta
Member
I don't like it in it's current form in matchmaking, but turn up movement and jump to 110% and it just feels like Halo.Tunavi said:
Being on Reach shouldn't mean it can't return for Halo 4 at launch or DLC. If so it'll be a strong kick in the balls. You remake the maps that are demanded strongly by the communnity, you remake said map if it works well given the gameplay changes, or you alter it to make it more accustomed to it (ala Blood Gulch to Coagulation, not Zanzibar to Last Resort).Ramirez said:
For Halo 4, I'm really hoping they can dish out some quality BTB maps at launch. I would do what Bungie did for Halo 2 in terms of count and type, two symmetrical (Halo 2: Coagulation, Waterworks) and one asymmetrical (Halo 2: Headlong). Personally I would ditch Invasion and its agenda all together. Nice idea, but unless it gets entirely revamped, remove it.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Striker said:
Invasion is great, whats wrong with it?.
Last resort was a good map aswell, sure it had a few problem areas and the back base design was pretty horrible look but overall it was a good map.
It put a bullet in BTB's head. Instead of having one great mode, we have two totally mediocre ones, on mediocre maps, with mediocre support.StalkerUKCG said:
Last Resort was a total bastardization of a great map. Incredibly schizophrenic identity, didn't know if it wanted to be a BTB map or 4v4, and yeah, a terrible base structure is a pretty big deal for a map that was originally intended for asymmetric objective games, where the base is kind of an important factor.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Havok said:
I guess i see where you coming from, but i think it played pretty well in both BTB or 4v4, with a limited map number some maps have to be setup for multiple player scenarios.
As for invasion i disagree. I think the use of horrible forge maps, the lack of any good big team maps and frequent quitters killed BTB. Invasion works great. its 6v6 so its a middle ground between 4v4 and BTB, The squad element is pretty cool (battle bro 4 lyf) and its nice to have a spartans v elite playlist.
Why do you think there aren't any good BTB maps? Because they had to focus on two large-team modes with limited resources, and the maps don't work very well across modes. They didn't do it for their health. It's no surprise that the Invasion maps are some of the worst experiences I've ever had when they show up in Big Team.StalkerUKCG said:
I like Invasion, but I hate the effect it had on traditional large-scale combat, and I think that each map has at least one terrible phase (3rd Spire, Boneyard, 1st Breakpoint) that kind of breaks the fun that I have otherwise. Even then, it still seems like a half-baked feature - the bro spawning system is totally awful, and a whopping two maps shipping for a new mode? That's not an indicator of a polished product.
Edit: Dani writes words real good.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
StalkerUKCG said:
Invasion was suppose to be a new multiplayer experience. Maps were made to accommodate it. Resources, time and effort in Reach's development were dedicated to it.
No one cared.
The idea has potential but the reality of the situation is that Bungie simply wasted time with Invasion that could have been better spent in other areas and modes that would have seen a greater return for the development investment.
Look at Zombies/Infection as a great example. Bungie didn't waste more than a few hours throwing it into Reach. Heck, it was broken with the Alpha zombie issues. Had they poured even half of the development time into a proper Infection/Zombie mode, then it that time wouldn't have been wasted. Infection is thriving despite no one giving a shit about it yet Invasion flounders.
Folks are suggesting giving Invasion another chance. It doesn't deserve it. There should be other priorities. Players vote with their time spent playing and no one wants to play Invasion outside a tiny minority and players that feel forced because of the associated achievement.
But wait, what about Objective, surely by my own reasoning they should also remove Objective too? Hardly. Objective is a part of the Halo experience as Slayer. Treating Objectives properly for would a start. Reach's low Objective population is more to do with historically poor gametypes choices like Hot Potato and Flag Slayer and poor map selection due to the high number of multiple players split-screening. Objective has a future in Halo and deserves it.
Invasion warped Halo. It interfered ruinously in Big Team's development. We get maps like Spire and Boneyard that play like maps from entirely different games hacked into a Halo Big Team environment. Want to play Big Team on Spire? No one does. We get these huge open levels where 60% of the actual environments go unused and ignored. It's horrible to think that Reach's unique BTB maps sit alongside Valhalla, Headlong, Sidewinder/Avalanche, and Blood Gulch/Coagulation as part of Halo's legacy. We're stuck with them like an unwanted, ugly and annoying cousin that comes to stay over and overstays his welcome. And you hate him And he knows this. Yet he keeps coming back. Again and again. Why won't he leave?
Invasion should be left to die, abandoned on Reach as a casualty of war. The resources instead should flow to Big Team or helping Forge 3.0's colour pallete expand beyond a single colour. Or into a new Infection mode. Or any of the other multiplayer modes.
They shipped the game with Hemorrhage and Paradiso as the only BTB maps. They jammed Spire and Boneyard as BTB maps, and its recipe wasn't so tasty. Bungie were basically forced to add maps into Big Team from forge because they had no other alternatives (DLC would not show up in there unless they had made it DLC Required). Still, in the entire DLC released so far, they've released one BTB map. Not counting any community forged maps, or any Invasion ones, that is three combined. You still don't think it splintered the BTB playlist?StalkerUKCG said:
Speaking of DLC -- Breakpoint is an Invasion map, and in BTB it's hit or miss mainly due to the awful, awful flag placement in 1-flag. Who put these flags there? Same questions goes to Boardwalk and Powerhouse and their terrible placements.
Photolysis
Banned
StalkerUKCG said:
Invasion basically requires maps more or less dedicated to the mode to work. This is in contrast with other maps which played well with many different game modes. By itself it's not a bad gametype but when you have maps that are dedicated to it then that takes away what you can use for the other game modes. In the case of Reach, BTB was especially shafted.
I greatly disliked Last Resort in H3, mostly because of the base structure which was far too large and open at the back. Like almost all H3 remakes save Heretic which was directly copied from Midship, it messed things up on the way. If you do remake maps, then it requires a very good understanding of the 'essence' of the map if you're going to make changes.
Gabotron ES
Member
That ZB game on Boardwalk was awful, I think I killed a single guy. 85% bloom ftw!Devolution said:
Nope, I love invasion.Dani said:
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I honestly do get what you guys are saying but reach has bad map design period, blaming that on boneyard isnt fair. Things that invasion didnt even effect like small and medium sized maps are still bad maps. Ill admit spire is horrible and boneyard isnt a great map by any means but i think the biggest factor in reach having bad maps was forge world.
I still fail to see how invasion was the condemning factor in BTB's demise. 2 more maps wouldnt of a made BTB a success. As a playlist invasion does just fine, The only thing that they suffer from is a lack of good maps but thats halo's fault in general.
If anything i think the condemning factor was the living dead playlist. Moan about invasion all you want and that its a warped version of halo but Living Dead/Infection is alot further removed from halo than anything else, except maybe grifball.
Um what? you took the full blow of that grenade and where oneshot, are you telling me you couldnt no scope that guy without evade? I agree evade is overpowered but that was not an example of why
I still fail to see how invasion was the condemning factor in BTB's demise. 2 more maps wouldnt of a made BTB a success. As a playlist invasion does just fine, The only thing that they suffer from is a lack of good maps but thats halo's fault in general.
If anything i think the condemning factor was the living dead playlist. Moan about invasion all you want and that its a warped version of halo but Living Dead/Infection is alot further removed from halo than anything else, except maybe grifball.
Blinding said:
Um what? you took the full blow of that grenade and where oneshot, are you telling me you couldnt no scope that guy without evade? I agree evade is overpowered but that was not an example of why
Photolysis
Banned
StalkerUKCG said:
True, but the invasion maps only make the situation worse, even in the smaller playlists. I for one quite liked the occasional game of 1 Flag CTF on maps like Valhalla.
If I'm going to be stuck with bad maps, I'd least like variety in those bad maps.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
StalkerUKCG said:
One thing you can say about both Living Dead and Grifball is that they are both gametypes that came from the community and thus, regardless if you like them or not, are always going to be in demand with players wanting to play.
Griffball just needs a few rectangles and a friendly Nokyard. Living Dead can be put on any map. It's a testament to the perseverance of Living Dead fans that they have put up with Reach's limited map selection for this long (and still haven't had ANY significant playlist improvements) yet Living Dead has overtaken Team Slayer on many occasions as the most active playlist.
The next Halo needs Living Dead. It needs Grifball. It's needs Big Team. It needs Objective.
It doesn't need, and would do better without, Invasion.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
PooBone said:
No ranked playlists. Arena is horrible that dosnt count.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Gabotron ES said:
And some people loved dual-wielding. Sometimes you need to let go. =p
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Dani said:
id argue that living dead and grifball deserve full playlists, weekend event scenarios are fine but a full playlist means the rest of the playlists get screwed over by a smaller player count.
Id be fine with Invasion being a gametype in big team having no specific maps and letting the maps be worked via forge to fit the gametype. However since its introdcution its got a pretty good following and to cut it completely would be a bad idea, it dosnt deserve to be cut over any of the other none slayer/objective gametypes.
David: So zerobloom sucks, gotcha.
Ugh guys.. you're doing it wrong. You should be asking for ROF caps and higher movement speed not for an aspect of the sandbox to be downgraded to accomodate for other moronic aspects of the sandbox. Please be more responsible with your feedback kthxbai.
edit- unless the feedback of this beta only affects the default reach, if so carry on then
Ugh guys.. you're doing it wrong. You should be asking for ROF caps and higher movement speed not for an aspect of the sandbox to be downgraded to accomodate for other moronic aspects of the sandbox. Please be more responsible with your feedback kthxbai.
edit- unless the feedback of this beta only affects the default reach, if so carry on then
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Blinding said:
Nvm, i get what your saying now. Still just a case of AA's being a crutch its not exclusive to evade.