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Hate speech or free speech? What much of West bans is protected in U.S.

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Ripclawe

Banned
It seems to be getting worse everywhere else when it comes to opinion and speech regulation.

http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=13645369

Hate speech or free speech? What much of West bans is protected in U.S.
By Adam Liptak

Wednesday, June 11, 2008

VANCOUVER, British Columbia: A couple of years ago, a Canadian magazine published an article arguing that the rise of Islam threatened Western values. The article's tone was mocking and biting, but it said nothing that conservative magazines and blogs in the United States did not say every day without fear of legal reprisal.

Things are different here. The magazine is on trial.

Under Canadian law, there is a serious argument that the article contained hate speech and that its publisher, Maclean's magazine, the nation's leading newsweekly, should be forbidden from saying similar things, forced to publish a rebuttal and made to compensate Muslims for injuring their "dignity, feelings and self respect."

The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, which held five days of hearings on those questions in Vancouver last week, will soon rule on whether Maclean's violated a provincial hate speech law by stirring up animosity toward Muslims.

As spectators lined up for the afternoon session last week, an argument broke out.

"It's hate speech!" yelled one man.

"It's free speech!" yelled another.

In the United States, that debate has been settled. Under the First Amendment, newspapers and magazines can say what they like about minority groups and religions - even false, provocative or hateful things - without legal consequence.

The Maclean's article, "The Future Belongs to Islam," was an excerpt from a book by Mark Steyn called "America Alone." The title was fitting: The United States, in its treatment of hate speech, as in so many areas of the law, takes a distinctive legal path.

"In much of the developed world, one uses racial epithets at one's legal peril, one displays Nazi regalia and the other trappings of ethnic hatred at significant legal risk and one urges discrimination against religious minorities under threat of fine or imprisonment," Frederick Schauer, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, wrote in a recent essay called "The Exceptional First Amendment."

"But in the United States," Schauer continued, "all such speech remains constitutionally protected."

Canada, Britain, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech. Israel and France forbid the sale of Nazi items like swastikas and flags. It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and France.

Last week, the actress Brigitte Bardot, an animal rights activist, was fined €15,000, or $23,000, in France for provoking racial hatred by criticizing a Muslim ceremony involving the slaughter of sheep.

By contrast, U.S. courts would not stop the American Nazi Party from marching in Skokie, Illinois, in 1977, though the march was deeply distressing to the many Holocaust survivors there.


Six years later, a state court judge in New York dismissed a libel case brought by several Puerto Rican groups against a business executive who had called food stamps "basically a Puerto Rican program." The First Amendment, Justice Eve Preminger wrote, does not allow even false statements about racial or ethnic groups to be suppressed or punished just because they may increase "the general level of prejudice."

Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech.

"It is not clear to me that the Europeans are mistaken," Jeremy Waldron, a legal philosopher, wrote in The New York Review of Books last month, "when they say that a liberal democracy must take affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack."

Waldron was reviewing "Freedom for the Thought That We Hate: A Biography of the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis, the former New York Times columnist. Lewis has been critical of attempts to use the law to limit hate speech.

But even Lewis, a liberal, wrote in his book that he was inclined to relax some of the most stringent First Amendment protections "in an age when words have inspired acts of mass murder and terrorism." In particular, he called for a re-examination of the Supreme Court's insistence that there is only one justification for making incitement a criminal offense: the likelihood of imminent violence.

The imminence requirement sets a high hurdle. Mere advocacy of violence, terrorism or the overthrow of the government is not enough; the words must be meant to, and be likely to, produce violence or lawlessness right away. A fiery speech urging an angry racist mob immediately to assault a black man in its midst probably qualifies as incitement under the First Amendment. A magazine article - or any publication - aimed at stirring up racial hatred surely does not.

Lewis wrote that there is "genuinely dangerous" speech that does not meet the imminence requirement. "I think we should be able to punish speech that urges terrorist violence to an audience, some of whose members are ready to act on the urging," Lewis wrote. "That is imminence enough."

Harvey Silverglate, a civil liberties lawyer in Boston, disagreed.

"When times are tough," he said, "there seems to be a tendency to say there is too much freedom."

"Free speech matters because it works," Silverglate continued. Scrutiny and debate are more effective ways of combating hate speech than censorship, he said, and all the more so in the post-Sept. 11 era.

"The world didn't suffer because too many people read 'Mein Kampf,"' Silverglate said. "Sending Hitler on a speaking tour of the United States would have been quite a good idea."

Silverglate seemed to be echoing the words of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, whose 1919 dissent in Abrams v. United States eventually formed the basis for modern First Amendment law.

"The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market," Holmes wrote. "I think that we should be eternally vigilant," he added, "against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death."

The First Amendment is not, of course, absolute. The Supreme Court has said that the government may ban fighting words or threats. Punishments may be enhanced for violent crimes prompted by race hate. And private institutions, including universities and employers, are not subject to the First Amendment, which restricts only government activities.

But merely saying hateful things about minority groups, even with the intent to cause their members distress and to generate contempt and loathing, is protected by the First Amendment.

In 1969, for instance, the Supreme Court unanimously overturned the conviction of a leader of a Ku Klux Klan group under an Ohio statute that banned the advocacy of terrorism. The Klan leader, Clarence Brandenburg, had urged his followers at a rally to "send the Jews back to Israel," to "bury" blacks, though he did not call them that, and to consider "revengeance" against politicians and judges who were unsympathetic to whites.

Only Klan members and journalists were present. Because Brandenburg's words fell short of calling for immediate violence in a setting where such violence was likely, the Supreme Court ruled that he could not be prosecuted for incitement.

In his opening statement in the Canadian magazine case, a lawyer representing the Muslim plaintiffs aggrieved by the Maclean's article pleaded with a three-member panel of the tribunal to declare that the article subjected his clients to "hatred and ridicule" and to force the magazine to publish a response.

"You are the only thing between racist, hateful, contemptuous Islamophobic and irresponsible journalism," the lawyer, Faisal Joseph, told the tribunal, "and law-abiding Canadian citizens."

In response, a lawyer for Maclean's all but called the proceeding a sham.

"Innocent intent is not a defense," the lawyer, Roger McConchie, said, in a bitter criticism of the British Columbia hate speech law. "Nor is truth. Nor is fair comment on true facts. Publication in the public interest and for the public benefit is not a defense. Opinion expressed in good faith is not a defense. Responsible journalism is not a defense."

Jason Gratl, a lawyer for the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, which has intervened in the case, was measured in his criticism of the law forbidding hate speech.

"Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech," Gratl said in a telephone interview. "We don't subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat."

Many foreign courts have respectfully considered the U.S. approach - and then rejected it.


A 1990 decision from the Canadian Supreme Court, for instance, upheld the criminal conviction of James Keegstra for "unlawfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group by communicating anti-Semitic statements." Keegstra, a teacher, had told his students that Jews are "money loving," "power hungry" and "treacherous."

Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Robert Dickson said there was an issue "crucial to the disposition of this appeal: the relationship between Canadian and American approaches to the constitutional protection of free expression, most notably in the realm of hate propaganda."

Dickson said, "There is much to be learned from First Amendment jurisprudence." But he concluded that "the international commitment to eradicate hate propaganda and, most importantly, the special role given equality and multiculturalism in the Canadian Constitution necessitate a departure from the view, reasonably prevalent in America at present, that the suppression of hate propaganda is incompatible with the guarantee of free expression."

The distinctive U.S. approach to free speech, legal scholars say, has many causes. It is partly rooted in an individualistic view of the world. Fear of allowing the government to decide what speech is acceptable plays a role. So does history.

"It would be really hard to criticize Israel, Austria, Germany and South Africa, given their histories," for laws banning hate speech, said Schauer, the professor at Harvard, in an interview.

In Canada, however, the laws seem to stem from a desire to promote societal harmony. Three time zones east of British Columbia, the Ontario Human Rights Commission - while declining to hear a separate case against Maclean's - nonetheless condemned the article.

"In Canada, the right to freedom of expression is not absolute, nor should it be," the commission's statement said. "By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to 'the West,' this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others."

British Columbia human rights law, unlike that in Ontario, does appear to allow claims based on statements published in magazines.

Steyn, the author of the Maclean's article, said the court proceeding illustrated some important distinctions. "The problem with so-called hate speech laws is that they're not about facts," he said in a telephone interview. "They're about feelings."

"What we're learning here is really the bedrock difference between the United States and the countries that are in a broad sense its legal cousins," Steyn added. "Western governments are becoming increasingly comfortable with the regulation of opinion. The First Amendment really does distinguish the U.S., not just from Canada but from the rest of the Western world."
 

Flynn

Member
Oliver Wendel Holmes said:
"The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market," Holmes wrote. "I think that we should be eternally vigilant," he added, "against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death."

Bolded for great justice (of the Supreme Court).
 

JKBii

Member
The Canadian representative actually says Canadians are weaker than Americans and can't handle hurtful opinions. Wow.

There's no legal basis for the magazine to win since hate speech laws do not go against the Canadian constitution. I just take pity on people who live there.
 

Gaborn

Member
Justin Bailey said:
Never. Free speech is free speech. That goes for assholes, too.

Agreed. I've always felt the more controversial speech is that which NEEDS the first amendment. Non-controversial speech doesn't require protection. The First Amendment was designed to protect disagreeable speech from being affected by a change in governments and changing social attitudes, and I think it works pretty well.
 

FightyF

Banned
Maybe that's why most of the racial slurs seem to come from Americans, on Xbox Live. :p

Justin Bailey said:
Never. Free speech is free speech. That goes for assholes, too.

Isn't this a bit hypocritical since there are laws against slander and libel in the US?

Should those laws cease to exist?
 
You know what? Fuck this world. I'm so fucking tired of watching everything I like about this civilization get gleefully destroyed by idiots. You can all go to hell, I don't care anymore.
 

Solaros

Member
FightyF said:
Maybe that's why most of the racial slurs seem to come from Americans, on Xbox Live. :p



Isn't this a bit hypocritical since there are laws against slander and libel in the US?

Should those laws cease to exist?


That is different.
 
PhlegmMaster said:
You can all go to hell, I don't care anymore.

Wait..so now you're religious and are going to stop posting? That's quite the turnaround...

On a serious note as a Christan I take plenty of heat on GAF. People think that I'm stupid and misguided and don't mind saying that in the rudest ways. That being said I'd never in a million years want to legally restrict their rights to say those things. You start to restrict speech in any area and goodness knows what is next.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
FightyF said:
Maybe that's why most of the racial slurs seem to come from Americans, on Xbox Live. :p

Isn't this a bit hypocritical since there are laws against slander and libel in the US?

Should those laws cease to exist?

Rather than making vague implications, say it straight, yes or no--do you think people who criticize Islam should be jailed?
 
Interesting that religions are still free to condemn whole segments of society or populations of countries to a most likely fictional hell.
 

Boogie

Member
Never has it been said better:

John Stuart Mill said:
If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.
 

Branduil

Member
When you lose the right to free speech, and the right to defend yourself, the government taking away all your other rights soon becomes trivial.
 

JKBii

Member
FightyF said:
Maybe that's why most of the racial slurs seem to come from Americans, on Xbox Live. :p



Isn't this a bit hypocritical since there are laws against slander and libel in the US?

Should those laws cease to exist?
No. You can say anything you want, you just have to be responsible for what you say.

The example usually used is "You can't yell 'Fire' in a crowded area." It doesn't mean the act is illegal, what it means is if you yell it and people leave you are responsible for that and if there was no fire you just screwed up everyone's day so that's illegal.

It's the same for libel. You can say whatever you want but if it isn't true and you pretend it is you have to take responsibility for the damage someone incurs.
 

Slavik81

Member
JKBii said:
The Canadian representative actually says Canadians are weaker than Americans and can't handle hurtful opinions. Wow.

There's no legal basis for the magazine to win since hate speech laws do not go against the Canadian constitution. I just take pity on people who live there.
A majority vote in federal or provincial parliament can be used to suspend any fundamental or equality rights Canadian citizens may have under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. See the Notwithstanding Clause.

Quebec uses it to ensure that it is not a right to communicate in whatever language you want. (There are very strict laws about the use of languages other than French in Quebec.)
 
Cyan said:
Do you really have to do this in every thread? Is it some kind of compulsion for you?

Are you joking?

I do not do this in every thread. Seriously, check my post history and then check out the definition of every. I only bring up religion when it is related to the topic by history or cause.

This is entirely relevant to the topic. Speech is abridged to protect the religious (see the first sentence of the article quoted in the OP if you don't believe me), but not the other way around. Pointing that out may provoke a response from you. I hope it results in thought and not insult.
 

Yaweee

Member
Justin Bailey said:
Never. Free speech is free speech. That goes for assholes, too.

Yup. And anyone that says otherwise is a tyrannical piece of shit that I hope dies in a fire (on accident or of their own free will, of course. I don't condone murder).

--------

"Of all the tyrannies on humane kind The worst is that which persecutes the mind." -John Dryden

Dude had it four hundred years ago. We are a country born of his philosophy, and that is how it should always be.

The loss of freedom of thought is the beginning of the end.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
You start legislating the veracity of speech - libel, for example - and you run into tricky territory. I cannot claim that Dick Cheney is a pederast - because it's not true and I have no proof, yet I can get a tax break based on my claim that Lord Xenu shoots body thetans out of a Volcano.

This is a strange and complex country we live in.
 

Karakand

Member
vas_a_morir said:
If you don't protect all speech, you protect NO speech. Sorry. The rest of the west can suck it.
Careful, that kind of hate speech would get you fined or jailed in Yurop. (Or its poor copy, Canaduh.)

mshsvm.gif
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Stinkles said:
You start legislating the veracity of speech - libel, for example - and you run into tricky territory. I cannot claim that Dick Cheney is a pederast - because it's not true and I have no proof, yet I can get a tax break based on my claim that Lord Xenu shoots body thetans out of a Volcano.

This is a strange and complex country we live in.
That's only because there's enough people to believe in Lord Xenu.

Didn't the UK or somewhere recognize the belief in Lord Vader because so many people wrote it in? :lol
 

JKBii

Member
Stinkles said:
You start legislating the veracity of speech - libel, for example - and you run into tricky territory. I cannot claim that Dick Cheney is a pederast - because it's not true and I have no proof, yet I can get a tax break based on my claim that Lord Xenu shoots body thetans out of a Volcano.

This is a strange and complex country we live in.

You are not harming anyone with your belief in Xenu, but claiming someone is a pedophile could get them fired.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Xeke said:
Limit on any speech is terrible. If I want to deny the holocaust (I don't) I should be able to.
No you won't go to jail for it but you should expect to be looked down upon by people you express that opinion to. :p
 

Yaweee

Member
icarus-daedelus said:
See, that's why we have those amendment thingies that the government can't (or isn't supposed to -_-) override. Sometimes they suck, but 26 out of 27 so far ain't that bad. :D

Yeah, the constitution is there to ensure that we retain our rights, regardless of what the shit headed majority may want in any given era. Those amendments that exist to instead deprive us of rights are doomed to failure. Prohibition first, flag burning and gay marriage amendments next).
 

FightyF

Banned
Solaros said:
That is different.

How is it different?

Chairman Yang said:
Rather than making vague implications, say it straight, yes or no--do you think people who criticize Islam should be jailed?

You're trying to change the subject here, but I'll bite...

No. Why should they? They don't agree with Islam's view on homosexuality...sure go ahead and talk about it. Think Islam's perspective on the abortion issue is incorrect, talk about it.

But if Muslims should be protected against having false concepts attributed to them. Such as any person, or even corporation, is protected in the same manner.

Mark Steyn's article wasn't a commentary on Islam, or a critical analysis of it. It made a handful of generalizations about western Muslims without any evidence to support it. It painted a hypothetical situation that was unrealistic (ie. Muslims in the West would change voting demographics so that our Western governments are friendly towards radicals).

Again, you're ignoring my point about slander and libel. I think it's because you KNOW there's a double standard being applied here. That while individuals and corporations are protected from such speech, you don't want to see the same applied to minority groups.

JKBii said:
No. You can say anything you want, you just have to be responsible for what you say.

The example usually used is "You can't yell 'Fire' in a crowded area." It doesn't mean the act is illegal, what it means is if you yell it and people leave you are responsible for that and if there was no fire you just screwed up everyone's day so that's illegal.

It's the same for libel. You can say whatever you want but if it isn't true and you pretend it is you have to take responsibility for the damage someone incurs.

That's a good way to put it, so I suppose it's not hypocritical in the sense I was saying, but hypocritical in the sense that people are ignoring the damage caused by hate speech.

Yaweee said:
Yup. And anyone that says otherwise is a tyrannical piece of shit that I hope dies in a fire (on accident or of their own free will, of course. I don't condone murder).

So what do you think of the mods here, and this forum? Why are you posting here if you don't agree with the rules, to such a degree that you hope people die?
 
Cyan said:
Nope. Maybe you almost never do this, and I just happened to read two threads in a row where you brought up religion in what appeared to be an attempt to provoke.

If I misinterpreted you, then I rescind my comment.

You don't need my word, just look at my history. Most of the time it is puns and Wii love. Encouraging young people to do the right thing and being smug about my taste in movies are recurring themes as well, but not as prevalent. Religious stuff falls in the middle somewhere. (The other thread to which you refer is also a logical connection - What groups tend to be the most anti-gay?)


Cyan said:
Ok, I'll bite. Would the response (i.e. lawsuit filed) have been the same if the article had criticized, say, Christianity in the same manner? Probably not, because criticizing Islam is often seen as an issue of racism, which isn't the case for Christianity.

I don't think this actually has all that much to do with religion.

Maybe, maybe not.

However, the fact is that most major religions have teachings that demonize non-believers or those who have left the faith for either another faith or no-faith. These things include condemning them to hell or calling for their blood to paint the streets and any number of other things in between. I do not see evidence that these positions are regarded as offensive by the same lawmakers who seek to stifle the criticism of religion.

It seems unjust.
 

Yaweee

Member
FightyF said:
So what do you think of the mods here, and this forum? Why are you posting here if you don't agree with the rules, to such a degree that you hope people die?

There's a subtle difference between regulating a private server via bans, and imprisoning people.
 

JKBii

Member
FightyF said:
How is it different?



You're trying to change the subject here, but I'll bite...

No. Why should they? They don't agree with Islam's view on homosexuality...sure go ahead and talk about it. Think Islam's perspective on the abortion issue is incorrect, talk about it.

But if Muslims should be protected against having false concepts attributed to them. Such as any person, or even corporation, is protected in the same manner.

Mark Steyn's article wasn't a commentary on Islam, or a critical analysis of it. It made a handful of generalizations about western Muslims without any evidence to support it. It painted a hypothetical situation that was unrealistic (ie. Muslims in the West would change voting demographics so that our Western governments are friendly towards radicals).

Again, you're ignoring my point about slander and libel. I think it's because you KNOW there's a double standard being applied here. That while individuals and corporations are protected from such speech, you don't want to see the same applied to minority groups.



That's a good way to put it, so I suppose it's not hypocritical in the sense I was saying, but hypocritical in the sense that people are ignoring the damage caused by hate speech.



So what do you think of the mods here, and this forum? Why are you posting here if you don't agree with the rules, to such a degree that you hope people die?

It's not hypocritical. If you are the victim of libel you can point to a specific way you were substantially harmed by incorrect information, and it has to be harmful because people believe it, not because you don't agree with it. If somebody says your race is stupider than other races, that will not cause you to lose friends or a job, but if someone says you support NAMBLA, this could happen.

There is no right to not be offended in America and there shouldn't be one anywhere else. Some people take insults about their favorite comic book hero more seriously than others take insults about their race, so it's not even possible to quantify damages caused by being offended.

Corporations and individuals get more protection from libel because there is a single entity with a uniform voice being harmed and it is easy to find out whether a statement about it is true or not.
 
ceramic said:
"If we don't believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we don't believe in it at all" - Noam Chomsky

Interesting quote, since Chomsky himself has denied the holocaust perpetrated by Pol Pot in Cambodia, and I do despise him for it.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
darkiguana said:
You don't fight controversial speech by banning it. You fight it with more speech.
I say let's forget our differences and be friends!

*gets shot at first opportunity*

:(
 

JKBii

Member
darkiguana said:
You don't fight controversial speech by banning it. You fight it with more speech.
I disagree with the statement you just made and this post has more words than your post so you're wrong by your own standards.
 

Fio

Member
Hate speech has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Actually it's the biggest enemy of freedom of speech.
 

shoplifter

Member
Fio said:
Hate speech has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Actually it's the biggest enemy of freedom of speech.

Bullshit. "GOD HATES FAGS" regardless of whether or not you agree with it, has as much right to be said as anything else. Fred Phelps may be a moron, but when we stop letting him be a moron, free speech no longer exists.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Pimpbaa said:
Hate speech and conservatives should never be protected by free speech.
Absolutely correct, we should only talk about what we are best at, and that's stealin ur moniez!
 

Fio

Member
shoplifter said:
Bullshit. "GOD HATES FAGS" regardless of whether or not you agree with it, has as much right to be said as anything else. Fred Phelps may be a moron, but when we stop letting him be a moron, free speech no longer exists.

"GOD HATES FAGS" isn't hate speech, it's just a stupid statement. Someone saying: "you should kill homossexuals because they're evil" is. And I think protecting that type of speech is stupid and a disservice to freedom of speech itself.
 
Fio said:
Hate speech has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Actually it's the biggest enemy of freedom of speech.

who makes the call on what's considered free speech/hate speech? 50 years ago I wager a majority would have no problem with saying "god hates fags," and 150 years ago nothing would be considered hate speech against blacks.

it's fucking stupid to ban any speech.
 
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