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Hate speech or free speech? What much of West bans is protected in U.S.

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A lot of the statements made in the OP's article are pretty misleading.

Consider this. Remember that thread on Neogaf where the man got shot dead because the female she was with yelled rapist when her husband caught her? Was it free speech to yell rapist? Of course not, because doing so involved the violence which caused serious social harm.

The criminal Code of Canada makes this distinction as well noting that it is only hate speech that will disturb the social peace that is convictable and even goes out of its way to say that this only applies to hate speeech that occurs "other than in private conversation, "

Here is the relevant section of the criminal code of canada
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_290//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_290
hit ctrl + f and search for hate propaganda the read up to the end of defences (The rest is about the prosecution process for those particular crimes)

Anything can go to court, but don't think that just because it goes to court it somehow implies that the law in unclear on a specific topic.
 
Showing indifference towards hate is just as bad as the hate itself, if not worse. Free country or not, we shouldn't allow anyone to promote hate towards other human beings, which in sparks violence.
 

argon

Member
Dark Octave said:
Showing indifference towards hate is just as bad as the hate itself, if not worse. Free country or not, we shouldn't allow anyone to promote hate towards other human beings, which in sparks violence.

No man's opinion should ever be criminalized.

The rest of the world needs to move on and realize that they're never going to change Americans' opinion on this issue-- it's too deeply ingrained in our culture.
 

AntoneM

Member
Dark Octave said:
Showing indifference towards hate is just as bad as the hate itself, if not worse. Free country or not, we shouldn't allow anyone to promote hate towards other human beings, which in sparks violence.

So purely hate speech should be protected, unless of course it make a call for violent action. This is the US view on the matter.
 
Dark Octave said:
Showing indifference towards hate is just as bad as the hate itself, if not worse. Free country or not, we shouldn't allow anyone to promote hate towards other human beings, which in sparks violence.

The problem is people may define hate incorrectly.
What if Galileo's view that the earth revolved around the sun was hate against the church? We should never try to definitively say some speech is wrong because if history has taught us anything it should be that the entire set of ethos and ideas of the future will be nothing like the ones that exist today.
 

AntoneM

Member
Earthstrike said:
A lot of the statements made in the OP's article are pretty misleading.

Consider this. Remember that thread on Neogaf where the man got shot dead because the female she was with yelled rapist when her husband caught her? Was it free speech to yell rapist? Of course not, because doing so involved the violence which caused serious social harm.

The criminal Code of Canada makes this distinction as well noting that it is only hate speech that will disturb the social peace that is convictable and even goes out of its way to say that this only applies to hate speeech that occurs "other than in private conversation, "

Here is the relevant section of the criminal code of canada
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_290//en#anchorbo-ga:l_VIII-gb:s_290
hit ctrl + f and search for hate propaganda the read up to the end of defences (The rest is about the prosecution process for those particular crimes)

Anything can go to court, but don't think that just because it goes to court it somehow implies that the law in unclear on a specific topic.

What seems to be the fine, but substantial, difference between the US and Canada is that in the US one can use hate speech in a public forum without worry of committing a violation of law. I could, if I was crazy, go to Harlem or South Central LA and shout out hateful racial terms and ideas and be free to do so. If such speech results in some bystander to attack the speaker the attacker may very well be guilty of violating the law while the speaker will not. Of course the speaker at no point can become the aggressor in any way (often must be determined in court or through legal proceedings) or else he would be found guilty.
 
Earthstrike said:
The problem is people may define hate incorrectly.
What if Galileo's view that the earth revolved around the sun was hate against the church? We should never try to definitively say some speech is wrong because if history has taught us anything it should be that the entire set of ethos and ideas of the future will be nothing like the ones that exist today.
You're talking about opinion vs. opinion and opinion vs. an unchangeable fact.

It's one thing to question someones unproven theories, but it's another to target someone for who they are and who they were born as. The church could reconsider that they were wrong in their beliefs, which they have done, I hope. But I will never be able to change the fact that I'm what these hate marchers are protesting against. Why should I have to endure that? Being born and raised in America, where can I go? What is their marching against me going to solve? Galileo's view made a difference in the world because he was right, and views changed as a result. No matter how much these racists march and make hate speeches, I will always be who I am, physically.
 
Dark Octave said:
You're talking about opinion vs. opinion and opinion vs. an unchangeable fact.

It's one thing to question someones unproven theories, but it's another to target someone for who they are and who they were born as. The church could reconsider that they were wrong in their beliefs, which they have done, I hope. But I will never be able to change the fact that I'm what these hate marchers are protesting against. Why should I have to endure that? Being born and raised in America, where can I go? What is their marching against me going to solve? Galileo's view made a difference in the world because he was right, and views changed as a result. No matter how much these racists march and make hate speeches, I will always be who I am, physically.

The problem is though, that some societies may categorize things that are unchangeable fact as opinions and vice versa. It may be an error of judgement, but the reality is its still there, and a legal system needs to compensate for this natural error. A great example today is homosexuality with people invoking genetic, societal and personal arguments to make make their case. This may make issue opinion or unchangeable fact, but remember what I'm trying to prove. That there exist people who categorize things incorrectly. It is very easy to imagine that whats opinion and whats unchangeable fact can easily be mistaken by majorities of societies.

I feel like I'm droning on but I guess I should show you how this applies to your post. You are who you are? People are who they are born as? People may argue that they're not. Thats the difference. One side may be right and one side may be wrong but what is significant is the fact is the presence of the debate which supports the thesis of this post (the first line).
 

Yaweee

Member
Dark Octave said:
You're talking about opinion vs. opinion and opinion vs. an unchangeable fact.

It's one thing to question someones unproven theories, but it's another to target someone for who they are and who they were born as. The church could reconsider that they were wrong in their beliefs, which they have done, I hope. But I will never be able to change the fact that I'm what these hate marchers are protesting against. Why should I have to endure that? Being born and raised in America, where can I go? What is their marching against me going to solve? Galileo's view made a difference in the world because he was right, and views changed as a result. No matter how much these racists march and make hate speeches, I will always be who I am, physically.

Determination of the 'truth' is almost never clear cut, and it took many decades for Galileo's idea to be proven (and even then, the truth is not as simple as "Earth orbits Sun.")

Same goes for racial issues. Genetics play a wide role in human behavior, and different races have different statistical correlations to genes beyond just skin color and facial details. Who is to judge how much truth there is to statements about the role of 'race'? If you ban such discussions as hate speech, you only serve to impede productive discussion, halt the progress of science, and breed resentment among those unable to speak their thoughts.
 

snacknuts

we all knew her
I think limiting any sort of speech is a slippery slope. It is not inconceivable to imagine a situation where a person speaking ill of their government could end up being construed as some sort of hate speech, or the media not being allowed to discuss sensitive issues at all (such as wars?) because it might upset someone.
 

Boogie

Member
Dark Octave said:
Showing indifference towards hate is just as bad as the hate itself, if not worse. Free country or not, we shouldn't allow anyone to promote hate towards other human beings, which in sparks violence.

John Stuart Mill says you're a twat.
 
The article seems to imply there are blanket bans on things that can and can't be said in the countries it mentions. Thats not 100% accurate.

In the UK, speeches, signs and other forms of the spoken or written word are only punished if its deemed as an attempt to incite hatred or violence. There is debate and criticism of other cultures and religions here as much as anywhere else really... in fact, I think its a public past-time.

A few years ago we had Abu Hamza giving hateful sermons in Finsbury Park (if you're not familiar with the man have a quick read of this - http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/finsbury-park-mosques-terrorist-roll-call-465867.html )... We also had people at protests with signs like "Behead those who insult Islam", and other signs expressing open support for the 7/7 bombings in London and threats of more. I'm sure you've all seen the images. There were very few arrests that day, they had their free speech and I think most of those jackasses just found themselves on an MI5 watch list or something. Should there have been arrests? I think there probably should...

But here's the thing. As bad and as freedom-infringing as these laws sound to some of you guys, they're simply not enforcable. Plus, the Police in this country are very community aware. They want to be sensitive, they don't want to stir up unnecessary trouble.

On the one hand that's great. On the other, there are consequences. For one thing, these threats and sentiments should be being taken seriously, and for another - that minority of people are upsetting the apple cart. They're not representative of the Muslim faith, nor of any particular ethnicity. But does everyone else realise that? There are certain kinds of people who see those images on TV, and their prejudice hits the roof. I remember that we had an increase in young asian men and women being targetted in racially motivated attacks following the London attacks, we had some nutter firebombing peoples' shops/homes. Which brings me to the next set of people who should be targetted by the law in my opinion: neo-fascists.

The BNP - which is a political face to a wider nationalist movement, is often supported by extreme right wing nationalist activists and thugs. After race riots in Burnley, BNP members were deliberately targetting the area to gain support and stir up more violent trouble.

Here's a party political broadcast video in which Nick Griffin, chairman of the BNP, talks about the danger of Islam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2epLm34iNok -- Note how they're at pains to target peoples fears, uncertainties, and ignorance. They try and seem fair, and not alienate anyone by being too extreme. Here, they frame their bile as criticism of the government, but that broadcast was a backhanded attack on Islam, designed to make people think "gee these guys are right, i'm fed up of those muslim wackos, if they don't like this country they can go back to their own"... it ties Islamic extremism to current immigration, as though the issues are related, when in fact we've had large scale immigration in this country for over 40 years. The radicals who bombed London on 7/7 didn't migrate into the country that year with their alien beliefs spurring them on to bomb us... they were second or third generation BRITISH kids that grew disillusioned with their own country and the world and decided to lash out at it. One or more of the guys who tried to carbomb the airport in Scotland was a fucking doctor! In that video, the BNP also fail to acknowledge the existence of moderate muslims, or take account for the fact that extremists are by the very definition - extreme. Where is the acknowledgement that these people are a violent minority? Lets not fuck around here... What the BNP ultimately stand for is 'white power'. Nick Griffin met with David Duke, former leader of the KKK, he called the Holocaust a Holohoax, and he took it upon himself to go after Islam at a time when scaremongering and paranoia in the newspapers would only have helped fuel his view. Is there any question that people like this are dangerous stains on the fabric of society?

Again coming back to how useful these laws are: when Nick Griffin called Islam a vicious and wicked faith, he was charged with incitement to racial hatred and guess what? Not guilty. Twice. Le Pen (a fascist on the other side of the Channel) donated lots of bubbly to help celebrate his acquittal.

You can say and do whatever you want in this country if you're clever about it enough.
 
Given my post which shows that the statements made about Canada are pretty much false as well as the post above me, I think the topic title is in line to be changed.
 

Evander

"industry expert"
History has shown that banning hate speach just breeds more hate, because it is seen as prefferential treatment toward the group being protected.

Combat hate speach with education, not with legal consequences, and let the market regulate speach, inthat some one who makes absurd comments will damage their reputation in the public eye.
 
Evander said:
History has shown that banning hate speach just breeds more hate, because it is seen as prefferential treatment toward the group being protected.

Combat hate speach with education, not with legal consequences, and let the market regulate speach, inthat some one who makes absurd comments will damage their reputation in the public eye.
I like that. That makes sense.
 
Just read the Steyn article in question, and it made me wonder how anyone could fall for it. On one hand he talks about how large the Muslim population is, then he throws out a handful of anecdotes about Muslims living in the West being hostile to Western culture and seems to expect his readers to just blindly believe that all Muslims have the same feelings? Even if someone didn't have any ethical objections to restricting speech this article seems so easy to debunk that it's hard to believe it's worth prosecuting.
 
Fio said:
yeah, because every country that imposed limits to hate speech has turned into a dark dictatorship.


:lol



So much potential. And again: How do the US handle it if some Nazi holds a speech in the US and says that ever black, gay, jewish or muslim person has to be killed? Does this count "just" as hate speech or threat?
 

Darklord

Banned
seanoff said:
on topic - in Australia if a muslim gets on the radio or tv and calls christians devils and promotes violence against them, yes, they face the same legal consequences as anybody else doing the same thing.

Nothing? Because I've seen some Muslims say some pretty awful things(and other people) and get highly critized but not charged with anything.
 

FightyF

Banned
Chairman Yang said:
Who decides what concepts are "false" or not? If I think Islam has an evil policy towards apostates, and some random imam disagrees, does that mean I've attributed false concepts towards Islam?

The problem is that there is no one "Islam", and no clear definition of "Muslim".

That is true, but then would it not make sense to not then generalize, and say that "some Muslims believe that apostates should be charged with treason and killed"? There are some Muslims that believe that Islam allows for homosexuality. But it would be a gross mischaracterization to simply say that "Muslims are for it", rather it would be more appropriate to make a comment such as "a tiny minority of Muslims believe that Islamic scripture allows for homosexuality".

My apologies...I'll have to read the article before I can comment on this. I'll get back to this eventually.

Keep in mind that it's not just one article.

That's correct. I DON'T think minority groups should be protected. I think individuals should be protected.

That's the problem, as an individual, I am NOT protected if someone words their statements to refer to a particular trait I share with other people, but not me specifically.

Why should there be protection for groups over and above the protection for individuals within those groups?

I wasn't asking for protection over and above anything and anyone. Just for protection for myself, my family, my friends...and anyone directly affected by accusations that point to a particular trait we all share.

That's because a "minority group" is an artificial, arbitrary, and sometimes incoherent construct with a tenuous grounding in reality.

I think it's pretty easy to find someone who identifies themselves as Asian. Or Black. Or Middle Eastern. Or Christian. Or Jewish. Or Muslim. I really don't see how these labels are arbitrary in any way...care to clarify? Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying here.

If a particular Muslim has been directly harmed by particular speech, fine, that Muslim should have legal recourse, IF that speech is presented as fact and not opinion, and IF the speech is false, and IF the speech is not made with a reasonable belief that it is true, and IF there is actual harm, and if a whole slew of other conditions are met.

Exactly.

Of course, that's not what's happening here.

In this particular case it looks like they went a different recourse mainly because it's not simply one article from one writer, but a consistent line of editorial content with the same thesis, based on no facts.

zesty said:
I think limiting any sort of speech is a slippery slope. It is not inconceivable to imagine a situation where a person speaking ill of their government could end up being construed as some sort of hate speech, or the media not being allowed to discuss sensitive issues at all (such as wars?) because it might upset someone.

Remember, the issue is not hate speech, it's slanderous speech. It's pretty clear-cut to determine what is and isn't slanderous.

chaostrophy said:
Just read the Steyn article in question, and it made me wonder how anyone could fall for it. On one hand he talks about how large the Muslim population is, then he throws out a handful of anecdotes about Muslims living in the West being hostile to Western culture and seems to expect his readers to just blindly believe that all Muslims have the same feelings? Even if someone didn't have any ethical objections to restricting speech this article seems so easy to debunk that it's hard to believe it's worth prosecuting.

The real danger here is that it was the most recent of a string of articles Macleans published with a similar thesis.

As we saw prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq...if you claim something over and over again, and do not allow for another perspective, no matter how wrong you are, no matter how much evidence there is going against you, people will eat it up.
 
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