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[FrenchMovieTheme]

here is a complete list, as listed by visual concepts, of persons who were assigned to the "quailty assurance" team for ESPN NFL 2k5. Just as some background and purpose for this post, there are a multitude of problems and bugs with ESPN. Some of them are the following:

* Players having negative yardage added to their totals on penalties
* Very questionable DB AI (DB's will literally run in circles around a receiver at times)
* Very questionable CPU Trade logic (michael strahan traded for favre, etc)
* Very questionable sim-stat tracking in franchise

So, here is a list of the people who dedicated their time to finding these bugs:

Quality Assurance:
Mike Andrews
Adam Ausiello
Byron Andrew
Dave Bass
Jason Battle
Ken Benitez Jr.
Jeff Bentley
Brobert Britt
Elton Brown
Tim Cainglit
Joseph Chasan
Kevin Clement
Tim Collins
Brendan Decousso
Brian DeGraf
David Deluca
David Dixon
Marion Dreo
Justin Elngland
Jeremy Ford
Wayne Gin
Jeremy Goble
Michael Griffin
Jordan Hanke
Ocie Henderson
Dan Indra
Tyler Jacobson
Arthur Javier
Byron King
Guy Lasky
Joel Lehmann
Joseph Levesque
Ryan Lim
Micah Long
Marco Lopez
Will Madia
Kurt Maffei
Ryan Medina
James Miller
Vince Morales
William Parkman
Andrew Patania
Dion Peete
Damon Perdue
James Procopio
Nathan Rodriguez
Brian Rust
Matt Schultz
Shawn Sims
Jason Souza
Luciano Sponza
Zach Timmerman
Marshon Thomas
Jake True
Libert Viray
Donell Williams
Dustin Wright
Robert Zavala

and who can forget the problems everyone is having ONLINE on xbox live. some of them include:

* invalid rosters
* cannot connect to opponents
* no divisions in leagues, no replacing owners, incorrect stats reported by the servers, etc.

how many people does it take not to see these things? lets count them:

Network QA Lead Tester
Robert Leach

Network QA Assistant Lead Tester
Jerson Sapida

Network QA Senior Testers
Simon Chan
Chris Watkins

Network Quality Assurance
Jacob Adina
Nathan Burks
Clifford Chin
Adam Domenick
Adam Fair
Jerel Francisco
Chris Ganz
Joshua Graham
Richard Hilburn
Matt Holler
Jesse Jones
Peter Lopez
Dan Nicolaisen
Brian Osteo
Eric Ottolini
Mike Rose
Blair Reynolds
Evan Rice
Jake Stockstell
Chad Urquhart
Borden Wong
Morgan Wren
-------------

what confuses me the most is not that bugs slipped through, but the TYPES of bugs that slipped through. these aren't small bugs, like a clipping issue, or an occassional freezing. no, these are bugs that kick you in the teeth within 30 mins of playing. NO ONE with any football gaming experience or interest would miss this shit, no one with any football gaming experience COULD miss this shit. so my thought is that VC is full of shit, or the QA people are full of shit and didn't report problems as they saw them. but my QUESTION is, do these people even exist? or did VC use their name generator/pull names out of a hat to come up with this list?

 

[Suikoguy]

I wonder if they will patch it

 

[impirius]

There should be a mode where you collect milk cartons with these peoples' names on it, ala MGS2.

Good thing I play mostly one-player Quick Games!

 

[DMczaf]

FMT fights for our freedom

 

[Wellington]

The DB AI has me totally miffed. Against the AI, on Legendary, the CPU will break giant runs multiple times a game. If it were my fault for blitzing the entire house, fine, but this shit happens when I call Nickel and Dime zone packages. It's not that I miss tackles either, it's that the DBs are on the complete other side of the field from where the opposing running back is going. It's incredibly frustrating.

The refs are fucking horrible in this game as well. They often overturn their calls on a challenge even though the call was correct, and sometimes the ruling stands when the call is blatantly wrong.

And this is stuff we've found within a week of the game's release (we actually saw a lot of these issues last week, to be fair). How people get paid for QA testing this game is beyond me.

 

[Meier]

EA, VC, etc. totally need to hire FMT.

 

[ShadowRed]

Has anyone ran into the WR catching balls in 3 deep coverage. CBs going for interceptions when they are turned the opposite direction the ball is coming from. Seriously SEGA should have pulled a 989 and MS and just not released a game this year rather than releasing a 20 dollar turd. They should have just tweaked the last year version like Madden does and released that this year. *shakes head* What are these people thinking?

 

[DMczaf]

You gotta check out this guy at OperationSports defending every ESPN problems, its like Konex on crack

http://forums.operationsports.com/u...08&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

One reason why franchise mode has no bugs....

cause nobody will notice

although the internet community makes up a decent percentage of the game buying public..nobody is gonna notice or even care

for the casual gamer he'll just sit there and think, "wow, ty law got traded for brett favre, wow"

he wont be thinking, "thats a game killing, nano, glitch, nano bug, i must report this"

to sum it up...either play the franchise or dont play...cause there will be no patch

you guys are not paying attention...the trading logic is not a bug, this is how it was programmed..you can cheat the programming by turning off pre season mode...but this is how the game was intended to be played


you have to remember...once you start a season in a videogame anything goes...so, imo, VC decided that if you want to play in a living world...lets shake things up a bit...how about some trades...

like in my current season, the dolphins traded for jamal lewis...yes, they have ricky williams(prematurely)...but doesnt this now make them the team to beat...thats what will make your season unique...now if the phins make it to the 'bowl in my season...wouldnt that trade be the most realistic...since it put them over the top

s not about being leniet or forgiving...i have voiced my displeasure with the trade AI...

but this thread is just trying to shine a positive light on the situation

lets be real, how is this a bug or a glitch...its the franchise mode...the mode that matters the most to a football game

greg thomas would never sign off on this, if he didnt feel positive about its reactions...in many a case, i guess he was wrong

and you guys really arent paying attention, the increased number of trades and signings is to combat storyline central...



think about it

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

time to post this at the official ESPN boards ladies, let the games begin!

 

[Suikoguy]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/07/26/news_6103475.html

July 30 update will address multi-console login and roster problems; fix for Xbox challenge-reception bug coming by August 6.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

-_-

 

[The Faceless Master]

The refs are fucking horrible in this game as well. They often overturn their calls on a challenge even though the call was correct, and sometimes the ruling stands when the call is blatantly wrong.

sounds just like the real thing™

 

[FightyF]

We need a contact with VC. I can dress up as a pretty convincing janitor, but I'm in Canada.

 

[Meier]

So are all the people who were saying 2k5 is better than NCAA 2005 still of that mindset?

 

[Riskbreaker]

OT, FMT did you ever get your moneyorder??? Ya never sent a PM.

 

[JayFro]

After playing both NCAA and 2K5 quite a bit online and with a buddy in person NCAA is just a terrible game. 2K5 still blows it away and we had a much better time playing against eachother in 2K5.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

i didn't?? shit sorry dude!

my bad man i checked my pm's and i didn't send one. sorry about that... i thought for sure i did good trading with you, thanks dude

 

[Cloudy]

So are all the people who were saying 2k5 is better than NCAA 2005 still of that mindset?

FMT might be nitpicking now but even he'll tell you not to mention NCAA in the same breath as 2k5.

If you actually play the games instead of simming in franchise only and bitching when some stats are a bit of, you'll love the game....

 

[DMczaf]

FMT might be nitpicking now but even he'll tell you not to mention NCAA in the same breath as 2k5....

but even he'll tell you? NCAA 2005 could have been the greatest game ever and you would still say its trash

 

[bishoptl]

That list is hilarious. To be fair to QA, however, there are instances on every project (I saw this a LOT at Electronic Arts) where bugs are found and logged, yet deemed "Shippable" or "As Designed" as the beta/gold period draws near. Lay the blame for those squarely at the producers' desks, not QA. It's two days before the scheduled gold master date, there's big list of Open bugs, and some guy with a red marker going, "SHIP IT...SHIP IT...AS DESIGNED...FIX NEXT YEAR, AS DESIGNED...SHIP IT"

Just so you're aware. QA takes a lot of shit for stuff it can't always control. Shame when that includes quality. :|

 

[Cloudy]

but even he'll tell you? NCAA 2005 could have been the greatest game ever and you would still say its trash

I never said NCAA is trash. In fact, I think it's pretty good besides the crazy ball physics and usual EA football quirks. It's just not in 2k5's league....

 

[DMczaf]

I never said NCAA is trash. In fact, I think it's pretty good besides the crazy ball physics and usual EA football quirks. It's just not in 2k5's league....

In 2K5's league of half-assed programming? Oh I disagree! They are in the same basket!

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

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lol!! i guess there will be no bad-mouthing legit flaws @ espns official site

 

[Nikashi]

I want to come to the defense of QA testers everywhere.

Many times, a QA tester will FIND a bug, and for some goddamn reason, it will not be fixed. Don't go blaming the QA team, when it might very well have been the result of a tight schedule or something similar.


Just saying.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

nikashi:

so my thought is that VC is full of shit, or the QA people are full of shit and didn't report problems as they saw them.

 

[Suikoguy]

I want to come to the defense of QA testers everywhere.

Many times, a QA tester will FIND a bug, and for some goddamn reason, it will not be fixed. Don't go blaming the QA team, when it might very well have been the result of a tight schedule or something similar.


Just saying.

hmmm, it took quite a while for someone to come close to the reason

Think about it for a sec, ESPN launched early, the game obviously needed a little bit more polishing but they pushed it out the door. Blame Sega

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

i understand the game launched early. at the same time, you can literally find most of these bugs after playing for 30 minutes. my question isn't HOW a bug slips through the cracks, my question is why does something this simple slip through the cracks.

it MAY have been acceptable if this were the first time VC had bugs like this. but it's every year. every year franchise mode is a joke. every year there is an odd stat bug. every year there is some screwup here or there, or some corner cutting or whatever. releasing it early had nothing to do with the bugs. last year, espn nfl came out september 4th. guess what? had an assload of bugs that i found within a day. it's unacceptable

 

[DMczaf]

hmmm, it took quite a while for someone to come close to the reason

Think about it for a sec, ESPN launched early, the game obviously needed a little bit more polishing but they pushed it out the door. Blame Sega

Forget that, last year the game shipped in September and it still had the same amount of bugs

 

[Blackace]

"Tell me have you seen her? tell me have you seen her?"

 

[AstroLad]

i understand the game launched early. at the same time, you can literally find most of these bugs after playing for 30 minutes. my question isn't HOW a bug slips through the cracks, my question is why does something this simple slip through the cracks.

it MAY have been acceptable if this were the first time VC had bugs like this. but it's every year. every year franchise mode is a joke. every year there is an odd stat bug. every year there is some screwup here or there, or some corner cutting or whatever. releasing it early had nothing to do with the bugs. last year, espn nfl came out september 4th. guess what? had an assload of bugs that i found within a day. it's unacceptable

I don't have experience in the field of play-testing, but my guess is that there are TONS of bugs and some get fixed and fixed and the game gets changed so much that, if there's a rush, there can be some that are "obvious" left over. Just like a 30-page paper you've edited for 100 hours can still have glaring typos or grammatical errors.

The Franchise Mode is pretty buggy, but you can limit trades by cutting out Preseason games (which are worthless anyway, even in real life for the most part), though unfortunately you can't really limit their stupidity. I'm online and the damn thing is a blast; I stayed up until 5 last night playing it and could easily do it again tonight. Besides, was anyone really expecting Franchise Mode to be great? Anyone ignorant enough to buy 2K5 thinking it will have an awesome Franchise is probably ignorant enough that the wacked-out crap won't bother them.

It's imperfect, and sometimes downright stupid, but it's still damn fun like any good game is (see: Madden) and for my money and tastes the most fun football game out.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

i agree totally astro. online is a blast, i'm looking forward to the GA online league.

i didn't expect a perfect game. it's just frustrating to see that this game will play second fiddle to madden (for me) because they can't get the little things right... the little things that have been wrong for years.

you're also right about not expecting franchise to be great. i knew it would have problems, and that is sad. if they're going to put out a shitty franchise mode, then why bother at all? why hire QA testers if you aren't going to fix the problems they find anyways?

this game really feels like a "budget" title, although i am having fun with it.

 

[AstroLad]

i agree totally astro. online is a blast, i'm looking forward to the GA online league.

i didn't expect a perfect game. it's just frustrating to see that this game will play second fiddle to madden (for me) because they can't get the little things right... the little things that have been wrong for years.

you're also right about not expecting franchise to be great. i knew it would have problems, and that is sad. if they're going to put out a shitty franchise mode, then why bother at all? why hire QA testers if you aren't going to fix the problems they find anyways?

this game really feels like a "budget" title, although i am having fun with it.

I wouldn't say it feels "budget." If I asked you last year what football game would cost twenty bucks on release, you'd probably have answered, "er... what's worse than Backyard Football?," but it does certainly seem like Franchise was an afterthought. I actually think it may have been smart to just ditch franchise, do a really nice season mode (instead of none at all) and fine-tune all of the online play and leagues. As buggy as it is, I'm sure a hell of a lot of work went into the franchise mode, and maybe that time would have been better spent on 2K5's many strengths, particularly considering the twenty dollar price point. Rather than competing flat-out with Madden in an area where EA has a huge edge, why not just say, "hey, we have better online play, better graphics, etc." and really just annihilate Madden in those areas rather than dedicating so many resources to a sub-par franchise mode? Of course, making a decision like that would require some really innovative thinking and I suppose it's just easier to try to fit into the mold of what an NFL game is expected to be. It's the perfect game for me, though since I was never really into the micro-management Franchise aspects. I really do feel like I got a strong $50 game for $20.

 

[DJ_Tet]

People who defend the trades should tell me this:

When is the last time a trade like that happened DURING THE SEASON? Clinton Portis for Champ Bailey was quite the anomoly, and it happened in the Off Season. The NFL just doesn't have many trades period, much less starter for starter during the season.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I noticed a couple wierd things last night. I scored w/ like 0:00 on the clock (against a friend, not online), but they still allowed a kick off after the field goal. WTF?

Then, I challenged a ball spot error as I sacked my man's QB in in the end zone (as he was tackled both knees were well within the goal line. The refs never called a safety, hence me calling the challenge. The challenge was overturned, I didn't lose a time out, but I was never awarded the safety.

Unless my knowledge of the rules is iffy, that should be a safety dammit!

 

[etiolate]

Junk I've noticed so far:

-Chris Berman's reports are a jumbled mess of misinformation. He'' refer to the wrong team on the wrong side of the ball and then skip to a meaningless pass play.
-The previously mentioned tendecy for the CPU to break off huge runs because DBs suddenly run for the high hills.
-Coach's challenge/Replay is the stupidest idea yet. I don't care if its REALISTIC. It's a computer game! It shouldn't be making mistakes! I shouldn't be celebrating a touchdown only to have the play overruled.
-Workouts for Franchise mode make no sense. I put my players through drills and film sessions and they get worse.

I have other issues which aren't bugs. I'd like to just play a season without all the needless Franchise mode crap.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

this game really feels like a "budget" title, although i am having fun with it.

LoL! Yeah, OK.

 

[levious]

I noticed a couple wierd things last night. I scored w/ like 0:00 on the clock (against a friend, not online), but they still allowed a kick off after the field goal. WTF?

Then, I challenged a ball spot error as I sacked my man's QB in in the end zone (as he was tackled both knees were well within the goal line. The refs never called a safety, hence me calling the challenge. The challenge was overturned, I didn't lose a time out, but I was never awarded the safety.

Unless my knowledge of the rules is iffy, that should be a safety dammit!

Kickoff sounds stupid... but as for your safety, you challenged the ball mark, so maybe the initial mark was wrong and they adjusted it, but it was still not a safety. Challenging a ball mark when you think you got a first down for instance, you could still win the challenge of changing the ball mark yet still not get the first down.

* Very questionable DB AI (DB's will literally run in circles around a receiver at times)
* Very questionable CPU Trade logic (michael strahan traded for favre, etc)

The DB movement seems really stupid, especially when a back is running wide out of the backfield.

That trade seems almost like an intentional joke about Strahan's record setting "sack."

 

[bishoptl]

WTF

am i talking to myself here or what?

 

[Blackace]

WTF

am i talking to myself here or what?

Seems as if no one fears you anymore Bish... Time to show them!

KING KONG AIN'T GOT SHIT ON ME

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Kickoff sounds stupid... but as for your safety, you challenged the ball mark, so maybe the initial mark was wrong and they adjusted it, but it was still not a safety. Challenging a ball mark when you think you got a first down for instance, you could still win the challenge of changing the ball mark yet still not get the first down.

Yeah, I talked it over w/ a friend shortly after making the post. The point of contact is where the ball is ruled down, not the point in which his knees hit the ground.

 

[levious]

WTF

am i talking to myself here or what?

quoted so that you know we're listening

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

i saw your post bish, which is why i posted the "either VC is full of shit" or the QA people were. i guess i have my answer

 

[StoOgE]

For the kickoff: it could be possible that the game doesnt truncate fractions of a second, it simply doesnt show them... that way its possible there was .2 seconds left on the clock.. but since the game doesnt show that fraction you assume there is no time left on the clock. That is the only logical thing that would cause this bug...

One thing I think we can all agree on: as far as gameplay is concerned, this game is MUCH better and has MUCH less cheese than last years game. Last year if I falied to score a TD on a single drive I felt the game was out of reach because the TD rate was nearly 100% for anyone halfway decent, this year a typical person will score less than 30 points in a game.

Outside of the stat bugs, and iffy franchise mode (which I have never been that big on) the game only has a few things it does stupid, none of which ruin the game for me at least.

My main gripe is the lack of a season mode. This is what I played mostly in single player last year, but I cant do that anymore... I have to play through a franchise mode.

 

[Soul4ger]

AS IF IN RESPONSE, FROM 1UP.COM:

"The first patch for the Xbox and PlayStation version of ESPN NFL 2K5 is coming July 30, developer Visual Concepts announced today. This Friday will see the implementation of a server-side update to correct issues players have been experiencing, including failed login attempts and incorrect roster usage in online games.

"Next on the developer's schedule of updates is a fix for reported issues in the Xbox version, where player have encountered bugs in the challenge system -- some players have reportedly seen the system lock up after receiving four or more challenges, others have been unable to get other users to accept their challenges, and yet more have been unable to receive challenges after creating a game. Today's announcement claims that these issues will be repaired by August 6, next Friday, and advises players to reset their consoles if they encounter the bugs in the meantime."

 

[AstroLad]

Junk I've noticed so far:

-Chris Berman's reports are a jumbled mess of misinformation. He'' refer to the wrong team on the wrong side of the ball and then skip to a meaningless pass play.
-The previously mentioned tendecy for the CPU to break off huge runs because DBs suddenly run for the high hills.
-Coach's challenge/Replay is the stupidest idea yet. I don't care if its REALISTIC. It's a computer game! It shouldn't be making mistakes! I shouldn't be celebrating a touchdown only to have the play overruled.
-Workouts for Franchise mode make no sense. I put my players through drills and film sessions and they get worse.

I have other issues which aren't bugs. I'd like to just play a season without all the needless Franchise mode crap.

Wow, I actually think the whole ref error/challenge thing is a great feature. The refs seemingly make 2-3 bad calls a game (sometimes more, sometimes less) which is pretty much on par with real life. If you are paying attention, you will catch them and challenge them; if not, then the other team will benefit. I think it's great in that it rewards paying close attention. I've seen all kinds of errors too, including guys barely stepping out of bounds, guys "fumbling" an incomplete pass, not getting two feet down on a catch (easily the most common, just like in the real game) and it's all superbly done imo.

I do have a funny story about challenges though...

I was up 14-3 against a newbish guy (first play of the game he didn't know how to down it and kept running around the endzone pressing seemingly everything except Y until I nailed him and forced a fumble for a TD); I pass it out to Coles 18 yards up on an out route and he snags it but appears very clearly to go out of bounds before getting his feet down. My fears are confirmed when the top left corner shows "4th and 15," but literally a second after that the guy pauses, and challenges! I wasn't even going to challenge the play, but for some reason this trigger-happy guy thought it was ruled a completion. At this point my brother and I were cracking up at the possibility that he would challenge and get me a first down out of it at a crucial point in the game, but I didn't think it was close. The replay plays and...

HE WAS IN!

The refs come back saying the call on the field is overturned (to my team's benefit) and his team would not be charged a time out:

First down!

I couldn't even imagine what he was thinking at the time, but I'm sure he'll be more patient to challenge in the future.

 

[Mr_Furious]

It's not fair to lash out at QA. MS also does extensive bug testing of all Xbox products and must be approved by them before hitting store shelves. QA probably caught most, if not all, of the bugs being found (and possibly even more not found yet). If anything blame management because it is them that decided to "waive" the bugs in order to hit the release date.

 

[Ramirez]

Anyone else had this happen to them...

Call a fair catch(catch it) and STILL be able to run it?!LMAO...it happened to me twice in one game,once on a KR and once on a PR.

 

[StoOgE]

You cant blame MS at all. MS was not looking for stat bugs, clipping or anything of the sort, they are making sure that the game does not crash every 5 seconds. Now the online stuff? Maybe they could have caught that, but since the problems are mostly intermitant, they may not have had them.

 

[StoOgE]

The wierdest thing I have seen is in FP mode. I scored a defensive touchdown, and afterwords I was looking out of KGB's eyes watching the other team celebrate the TD. I still got the points and everything, they just got the celebration

 

[etiolate]

Anyone else notice this money play? On the first posession of every game I just make a dump pass left to my halfback and he runs all the way for a TD every time. I've done this on two difficulties, so I am not sure if this is just an AI thing or an absolute money play.

Wow, I actually think the whole ref error/challenge thing is a great feature. The refs seemingly make 2-3 bad calls a game (sometimes more, sometimes less) which is pretty much on par with real life. If you are paying attention, you will catch them and challenge them; if not, then the other team will benefit. I think it's great in that it rewards paying close attention. I've seen all kinds of errors too, including guys barely stepping out of bounds, guys "fumbling" an incomplete pass, not getting two feet down on a catch (easily the most common, just like in the real game) and it's all superbly done imo.

I just don't think it's fun. What if I get a fumble recovery, run it back and the player gets injured? Then the whole play is overturned? I'm out a player and get nothing. All in the sake of realism? It's a part of the real NFL that the NFL would be better without, so I would rather have my game without it.