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[Slayven]

I don't think realize how hard this show is going to be to write.

The Handmaid's Tale takes place in the near future so, the backstory for that is relatively compact.

The Man in High Castle is period piece set in sixties, so there's only 15 years of post WWII lore that needed to be written.

For Confederate they have to write 152 years of alternate world history. They have to write 152 years of world history without a United States of America.

I also think that they are SEVERELY underestimating the impact of Black Culture and innovation on America and the rest of the world. There is no "American Culture" without "Black Culture".

There is a good chance entire forms of music wouldn't exist. No Birth of Nation and no Gone with the Wind

 

[wenis]

I don't think realize how hard this show is going to be to write.

The Handmaid's Tale takes place in the near future so, the backstory for that is relatively compact.

The Man in High Castle is period piece set in sixties, so there's only 15 years of post WWII lore that needed to be written.

For Confederate they have to write 152 years of alternate world history. They have to write 152 years of world history without a United States of America.

I also think that they are SEVERELY underestimating the impact of Black Culture and innovation on America and the rest of the world. There is no "American Culture" without "Black Culture".

I'm sure they've thought about none of that.

On HBO Fall 2019, Confederate.

 

[theignoramus]

If you can somehow sidestep the minefield of basically blaming blacks for living in slavery for as long as they did. It's like writing a holocaust movie where the Jews don't go into the gas chambers and instead fight back against the guards and prevent the holocuast. The implication is pretty disgusting.

Black folk have zero issues at all with a film that depicts us fighting back. We tolerated the nigger jokes and paternalistic White savior figure in Django Unchained because we loved that that movie depicted a Black male lead shooting slave owners in the face, with no remorse.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

There is a good chance entire forms of music wouldn't exist. No Birth of Nation and no Gone with the Wind

Most modern music probably wouldn't even exist in any similar capacity. Blues, rock, jazz, hip-hop, rap? All trailblazed by black musicians.

 

[IrishNinja]

hard to imagine this isn't going to be a mess, regardless of its unveiling

I see.

top-tier reduction, masterfully done

And I see that you don't want to actually address the issues people have.

exactly right

Can't wait for the woke #slavelivesmatter merchandise, hashtag and front of brand marketing.

ughhhhhh

 

[ShironRedshift]

Nuanced portrayal of slavery, eh? That's a huge red flag right there. Slavery is one of those things that there kinda isn't much nuance on. It's bad. End of.

Also, this "it's what we imagine modern day slavery would look like" stuff. Uh, dude? No need to imagine or make some stupid alt-history series in that case. If that's really what you want to do, make a documentary on shit like this that actually IS happening in the here and now. No need to "imagine" at all:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1410669
https://apnews.com/52dc4fbe2fb64cec...-as-slaves":-AP-reveals-claims-against-church

SPINDALE, N.C. (AP) — When Andre Oliveira answered the call to leave his Word of Faith Fellowship congregation in Brazil to move to the mother church in North Carolina at the age of 18, his passport and money were confiscated by church leaders — for safekeeping, he said he was told.

Trapped in a foreign land, he said he was forced to work 15 hours a day, usually for no pay, first cleaning warehouses for the secretive evangelical church and later toiling at businesses owned by senior ministers. Any deviation from the rules risked the wrath of church leaders, he said, ranging from beatings to shaming from the pulpit.

“They trafficked us up here. They knew what they were doing. They needed labor and we were cheap labor — hell, free labor,” Oliveira said.

An Associated Press investigation has found that Word of Faith Fellowship used its two church branches in Latin America’s largest nation to siphon a steady flow of young laborers who came on tourist and student visas to its 35-acre compound in rural Spindale, North Carolina.

Under U.S. law, visitors on tourist visas are prohibited from performing work for which people normally would be compensated. Those on student visas are allowed some work, under circumstances that were not met at Word of Faith Fellowship, the AP found.

On at least one occasion, former members alerted authorities. In 2014, three ex-congregants told an assistant U.S. attorney that the Brazilians were being forced to work for no pay, according to a recording obtained by the AP.

Oliveira, who fled the church last year, is one of 16 Brazilian former members who told the AP they were forced to work, often for no pay, and physically or verbally assaulted. The AP also reviewed scores of police reports and formal complaints lodged in Brazil about the church’s harsh conditions.

“They kept us as slaves,” Oliveira said, pausing at times to wipe away tears. “We were expendable. We meant nothing to them. Nothing. How can you do that to people — claim you love them and then beat them in the name of God?”

The Brazilians often spoke little English when they arrived, and many had their passports seized.

Garbage all around.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

There is a good chance entire forms of music wouldn't exist. No Birth of Nation and no Gone with the Wind

"Every race has a flag but the Coon"...

It'll just be more shit like that.

Nuanced portrayal of slavery, eh? That's a huge red flag right there. Slavery is one of those things that there kinda isn't much nuance on. It's bad. End of.

Also, this "it's what we imagine modern day slavery would look like" stuff. Uh, dude? No need to imagine or make some stupid alt-history series in that case. If that's really what you want to do, make a documentary on shit like this that actually IS happening in the here and now. No need to "imagine" at all:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1410669
https://apnews.com/52dc4fbe2fb64cec...-as-slaves":-AP-reveals-claims-against-church



Garbage all around.

I'm sure they'll have a slave woman fall in love with her master and treat it like some love affair meanwhile in real life she has no choice and endures years of rape on the off chance he won't sell her babies or will free them.one day. Fuck romanticized versions of slavery.

 

[Buckle]

This is going to be so dumb.

I'll give it a shot, enjoyed Game of Thrones but especially without good source material already written for them to draw off of, not feeling too confident that they can pull this off respectfully without embarrassing amounts of over the top sex, violence and exploitation.

 

[Geist-]

2. Rape was a rampant issue in medieval society(it still is) and as such was written into ASOIAF and the Show.'

The show added rape where it was consensual in the books, and then continue the story as if it was consensual. D&D don't have a fucking clue how to do controversial subjects respectfully.

 

[Cipherr]

Can't think of a worse premise for a show. Especially right now. Alt right will swarm to this show like cicadas in heat. Grosscity.

No fuckin thanks HBO

Im sure theres a line somewhere about them having this idea forever. But the current climate with this alt right shit, Trump in office. No way are they not timing the pitch of this shit expecting to give a lot of people boners with this "Slaves are still a thing in the current day" bullshit. Fuck these clowns.

Im off this slave shit. Sick and fucking tired of the white savior trope too. Goddamn the shit gets old.

 

[Curufinwe]

Because the stuff they added to GoT was often the weakest aspect of the show by and far and in several cases was wantonly gross. If someone like David Simon was handling this show I wouldn't be nearly as apprehensive.

The subplot they added about a simple noble woman getting raped by 50 guys in a riot and then being considered defiled was the worst. Only a real sicko could have come up with that.

 

[theignoramus]

Im sure theres a line somewhere about them having this idea forever. But the current climate with this alt right shit, Trump in office. No way are they not timing the pitch of this shit expecting to give a lot of people boners with this "Slaves are still a thing in the current day" bullshit. Fuck these clowns.

Im off this slave shit. Sick and fucking tired of the white savior trope too. Goddamn the shit gets old.

I really enjoyed the series "The Knick" for this reason, it was refreshing to see Black characters retain their dignity, intelligence and sense of empowerment as they dealt with the usual racist abuse and torment.
I have every reason to believe we wont see that in this show, because these writers are known for pornographic torture and debasement of their characters.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

Edit- posted in the wrong thread somehow. Forgive me gaf. For what it's worth I have maybe like 1% faith in two white guys spearheading a show about modern day alternate history slavery. Nothing in Game of Thrones suggests to me that they have some nuanced or insightful views on race. Just the opposite, if anything.

 

[Curufinwe]

I just personally don't trust this story in the hands of the people running Game of Thrones. First there's the Daenerys nonsense, making her out to seem like this white savior goddess queen saving the poor PoC.

Or, even worse, these are the people who changed the plot of another character so that she's regularly violently raped before she becomes a stronger character. GRRM seemed to think all the horrific shit she had witnessed in her life was enough of a basis for her to begin growing, but David and Dan evidently thought they needed to add "violent rapes" onto the list first.

Sansa simply took the place of another female character, and all the articles about how being forced to have sex with her husband ruined her character in the show look like utter nonsense now.

Dany was raped in the books by Drogo, unless you think a 13 year old can consent to sex with a man twice her age that she was sold to as a sex slave. To quote your beloved GRRM, Dany was grateful he "could not see the tears that wet her face, and could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain". Book readers and their double standards are laughable.

 

[Chase17]

Should have just gone with a City of Thieves mini series or something. I remember his book being solid enough.

 

[theignoramus]

Sansa simply took the place of another female character, and all the articles about how being forced to have sex with her husband ruined her character in the show look like utter nonsense now.

Dany was raped in the books by Drogo, unless you think a 13 year old can consent to sex with a man twice her age that she was sold to as a sex slave. To quote your beloved GRRM, Dany was grateful he "could not see the tears that wet her face, and could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain". Book readers and their double standards are laughable.

These showrunners have a taste for degenerate behavior and they enjoy putting it on screen. I perceived it when they went out of their way to depict Jamie Lannister basically raping his sister, then, mid-rape, his sister starts enjoying it.

It doesnt take a genius to imagine the grotesque and offensive scenarios these sickos will dream up in their minds when it comes to this alt-confederacy show.

 

[HStallion]

Sansa simply took the place of another female character, and all the articles about how being forced to have sex with her husband ruined her character in the show look like utter nonsense now.

Dany was raped in the books by Drogo, unless you think a 13 year old can consent to sex with a man twice her age that she was sold to as a sex slave. To quote your beloved GRRM, Dany was grateful he "could not see the tears that wet her face, and could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain". Book readers and their double standards are laughable.

Have you read the books? The Ramsay rape is never ever seen. It's mentioned by a totally different character in passing. There is no detail, its just alluded to and even then its like a paragraph at most . The TV show just had to have an entire scene dedicated to it because we might forget how shitty Ramsay Bolton was and of course, rape gets people talking. Then lets not forget turning a consensual sex scene into a rape because... reasons. Once again this is on the show runners.

 

[royalan]

Sansa simply took the place of another female character, and all the articles about how being forced to have sex with her husband ruined her character in the show look like utter nonsense now.

Dany was raped in the books by Drogo, unless you think a 13 year old can consent to sex with a man twice her age that she was sold to as a sex slave. To quote your beloved GRRM, Dany was grateful he "could not see the tears that wet her face, and could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain". Book readers and their double standards are laughable.

Umm, not to turn this into a GoT thread, but that's not really the argument.

The argument is that Sansa didn't need to be raped to get to where she is now. Apparently, the author agreed.

Benioff and Weiss repeatedly use rape, torture and grotesque degradation as a shortcut to character development. And fuck no I don't want to see that in a white fantasy about what modern day black slavery would look like.


And here's the most important point for me. Is this show going to prompt the non-black people who watch it to ponder the state of the world we're in? To realize the truth of this country's shameful, disgusting, aint-shit history? The plight of Black Americans? Will this cause them to take their children aside and have tough conversations with them? Conversations like the one I had as a kid when I learned about slavery and the truth about black people's place in this country?

Or is this going to be the type of show that people gather around on Sunday, eat some wings, and pick their favorite heroes and villains, and allow themselves to be woo'd by the portrayal of slavery as this fantastical thing?

We live in a country that, not too long ago, was built on the back of slave labor. We also live in a country that would like to treat that history as inconsequential, as no big deal, as something that doesn't matter anymore. This country has never atoned for that history. It hates to even acknowledge it. Shit like this helps that.

 

[The Artisan]

Umm, not to turn this into a GoT thread, but that's not really the argument.

The argument is that Sansa didn't need to be raped to get to where she is now. Apparently, the author agreed.

Benioff and Weiss repeatedly use rape, torture and grotesque degradation as a shortcut to character development. And fuck no I don't want to see that in a white fantasy about what modern day black slavery would look like.


And here's the most important point for me. Is this show going to prompt the non-black people who watch it to ponder the state of the world we're in? To realize the truth of this country's shameful, disgusting, aint-shit history? The plight of Black Americans? Will this cause them to take their children aside and have tough conversations with them? Conversations like the one I had as a kid when I learned about slavery and the truth about black people's place in this country?

Or is this going to be the type of show that people gather around on Sunday, eat some wings, and pick their favorite heroes and villains, and allow themselves to be woo'd by the portrayal of slavery as this fantastical thing?

We live in a country that, not too long ago, was built on the back of slave labor. We also live in a country that would like to treat that history as inconsequential, as no big deal, as something that doesn't matter anymore. This country has never atoned for that history. It hates to even acknowledge it. Shit like this helps that.

what's even worse is celebrating that shit. i've seen people at court arguing for people to have the right to sport the confederate flag. why??? "southern heritage" - that is a heritage based on RACISM! why would you want to sport that? why would you be proud of having a history of what, 400 years of slavery? and 500 years of killing Native Americans?!

 

[Mike Works]

handmaids tale is about all women together and is a fictional plot.

1. The Handmaid's Tale is about the subjugation and rape of women (regardless of race, yes). Why is that okay to depict in a fictional drama but not racial slavery?

2. I don't know if you're up on your history, but 'Confederate' is about the third US Civil War which, *drumroll* is kind of fictional too!

 

[HStallion]

1. The Handmaid's Tale is about the subjugation and rape of women (regardless of race, yes). Why is that okay to depict in a fictional drama but not racial slavery?

2. I don't know if you're up on your history, but 'Confederate' is about the third US Civil War which, *drumroll* is kind of fictional too!

The Handmaids Tale is based on an award winning novel whereas this show would D&D pulling shit out their ass. I trust the award winning novel than those two.

 

[Sunster]

1. The Handmaid's Tale is about the subjugation and rape of women (regardless of race, yes). Why is that okay to depict in a fictional drama but not racial slavery?

2. I don't know if you're up on your history, but 'Confederate' is about the third US Civil War which, *drumroll* is kind of fictional too!

black slavery. a real issue not quite dealt with by our country as a whole. i highly doubt this drama will be the key to finally doing that.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

For all the people bringing up the Man in the High Castle comparisons, the biggest difference is that WW2 had a firm resolution and the German government acknowledges the former wrongdoings in full, taking pains to educate. In America, while plantation slavery as a financial institution no longer exists, the oppression and disenfranchisement of blacks in America is continuing as we speak. A show like this presents the false idea that the issue it focuses on is no longer an issue in our current "good" reality when it's not the case.

 

[whyamihere]

Nichelle and Malcolm are really good writers and it's bizarre they've been kind of erased out of this entire conversation.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

I had a longer post on how this was a dumb concept that wouldn't work even as an alternate reality if you only change the South successfully seceding but there's ways it could be done. Though in the hands of Dan and Dave I don't really have confidence in this. Hopefully the other people involved are of much, much greater influence.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Black folk have zero issues at all with a film that depicts us fighting back. We tolerated the nigger jokes and paternalistic White savior figure in Django Unchained because we loved that that movie depicted a Black male lead shooting slave owners in the face, with no remorse.

I really need to see that movie.

 

[superdeluxe]

Going to give it a shot, want to see if they can pull it off

 

[akira28]

this is not going to go well.
http://www.npr.org/2017/07/27/539714033/black-producers-hbo-defend-upcoming-series-confederate

Instead, the couple says, the series will likely feature an America divided, where the South has a system which looks like Apartheid-era South Africa. The goal, they say, is to show how today's problems with racial issues — over-policing of black people, disenfranchisement through voter I.D. laws, lack of representation at the highest level of power — is rooted in the nation's legacy of slavery.

As much as some people may object to seeing a story where black people are once again victims and white supremacy rules the day, Malcolm Spellman says such a story, done well, can speak to the anxieties of our modern political moment.

its ambitious as hell, I'll give them that.

Nichelle and Malcolm are really good writers and it's bizarre they've been kind of erased out of this entire conversation.

I like how they come out with "black people should have known better" when their project immediately gets crit'd. like, oh really? because you're running the show? I can understand benefit of doubt, but taking it as an understood that everything's going to be kosher because of them? I dunno.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Legitimately curious: why is there a huge outcry for this show and its material, but not for The Handmaid's Tale?

that could have went south real bad

Spoiler

and if you look at only the first few episodes they do some serious suspect shit

before some of the reveals

Nichelle and Malcolm are really good writers and it's bizarre they've been kind of erased out of this entire conversation.

they just write, they aren't EP's who have more final say soooo

 

[Xe4]

It's certainly an interesting concept, and one I've thought of a bit as the north came very close to letting the south be during Lincoln's reelection. As with anything about racial relations, alternate reality or no, it'll have to be handled carefully.

Will it be? I dunno.

 

[Mike Works]

The Handmaids Tale is based on an award winning novel whereas this show would D&D pulling shit out their ass. I trust the award winning novel than those two.

The quality of writing/showrunning of the two EP's of the biggest show in the world feels like a separate conversation from the main argument that's going on here. I don't think the majority of blowback that's occurring here is stemming from a majority of people who aren't fans of the Game of Thrones showrunners and how they've adapted GRRM's anthology.

black slavery. a real issue not quite dealt with by our country as a whole. i highly doubt this drama will be the key to finally doing that.

I don't think this show has claimed that it will be the key to "finally deal with black slavery" and allowing America to come to terms with it. That's a ridiculous notion.

I see the potential for this show to start (or continue) a conversation, to enlighten some who may be blind to what America currently is and has suffered through, and to depict an extreme scenario that could be a window to our future if we don't get our shit together. Just like The Handmaid's Tale.

that could have went south real bad

Spoiler

and if you look at only the first few episodes they do some serious suspect shit

before some of the reveals

Yeah, The Handmaid's Tale could've "went south" (no pun intended??), but people gave the show a chance, and it turned out to be amazing, is a wonderful piece of art, and has enlightened many into the frightening future we may be veering towards.

Just like Confederate has the potential to.

 

[oneils]

Wow, first time I learn of this. I'm really struggling to understand exactly how this show will work. The premise seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Lots of potential for really groan worthy shit.

 

[neorej]

I'm looking forward to this. Just imagine an USA where POC are still treated as second class citizens, where police on black crime goes unpunished, white supremacists sit in the White House and it's accepted as normal and people trying to change this are seen as dissidents....

 

[WriterGK]

It still hasn't aired right? How people can go mental on something that still needs to air :') is Fubar

 

[schwabdizzle]

I know you probably won't come back because of the dogpile and I'm not helping, but I hope you decide to join the conversation again.

Yes the Southern states wanted Slavery but they also wanted to leave the Union. I should of worded my post "not just about slavery."

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/reasons-secession

 

[cpp_is_king]

Why couldn't we get a show where the slaves free them selves.

You mean

Spoiler

Westworld

?

 

[NoName999]

Technically the Civil War was not about slavery it was about how the South wanted to leave the Union and be their own country.

 

[crackhead_bob]

Black folk have zero issues at all with a film that depicts us fighting back. We tolerated the nigger jokes and paternalistic White savior figure in Django Unchained because we loved that that movie depicted a Black male lead shooting slave owners in the face, with no remorse.

Never saw the movie before. What was Django's ascent/descent ratio? Was it a Luke Skywalker trajectory, or was it more like something out of a Steven Segal flick?

A balancing act would be essential, but is doing so a very slippery slope in this instance? Speaking as someone who loves and appreciates the payoff in epic hero journey's, I feel that putting the hero through hell is essential before he can make his triumphant comeback. At the same time though, I'm not familiar with the writers of this proposed show. Is it more to do with the track record of the writers than the premise itself, because it does sound potentially interesting if executed right. But I also don't want this show creating antiheroes for the alt-right to rally behind.

Are you familiar with Oz? What was the general consensus on Vern Schillinger's character when that show aired? Given JK Simmon's elevated status and obvious charisma, I can't help but wonder if he would end up being propped up as a zeitgeist revelation among white supremacists today.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Why? Is there proof that showing sadistic violence on television encourages more sadistic violence? I would guess Game of Thrones illicites a sympathetic response to abused characters for most people. It'll be interesting to see a proper study on that though.

What?

No it's a sign that people who think let's add rape is a way to create character development lack the intellectual fortitude to run this show.

 

[Easy_D]

Why couldn't we get a show where the slaves free them selves.

We did but those slaves were portrayed by (mostly) white actors. Talking about Spartacus of course. But yeah, an alternate universe where there's a slave uprising in the US would have been very interesting to watch for sure.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Please see my last post I clarified my statement instead of just continually shiting on me

 

[Not]

I'm looking forward to this. Just imagine an USA where POC are still treated as second class citizens, where police on black crime goes unpunished, white supremacists sit in the White House and it's accepted as normal and people trying to change this are seen as dissidents....

Right what a fucking CRAZY concept

D&D remind me of children. I be they always really really really wanted to do this, then Trump got elected and they're still like "yeah let's still do it we're geniuses." They don't know how to let it go.

 

[theignoramus]

Never saw the movie before. What was Django's ascent/descent ratio? Was it a Luke Skywalker trajectory, or was it more like something out of a Steven Segal flick?

A balancing act would be essential, but is doing so a very slippery slope in this instance? Speaking as someone who loves and appreciates the payoff in epic hero journey's, I feel that putting the hero through hell is essential before he can make his triumphant comeback. At the same time though, I'm not familiar with the writers of this proposed show. Is it more to do with the track record of the writers than the premise itself, because it does sound potentially interesting if executed right. But I also don't want this show creating antiheroes for the alt-right to rally behind.

Are you familiar with Oz? What was the general consensus on Vern Schillinger's character when that show aired? Given JK Simmon's elevated status and obvious charisma, I can't help but wonder if he would end up being propped up as a zeitgeist revelation among white supremacists today.

His character development definitely wasnt anything like Luke Skywalker. More like an old American Western character who shoots more than he speaks.
Ive seen Oz. I dont know what the general consensus on Schillinger's character was when it aired because I watched it like 7 years after the show ended.

 

[crackhead_bob]

His character development definitely wasnt anything like Luke Skywalker. More like an old American Western character who shoots more than he speaks.
Ive seen Oz. I dont know what the general consensus on Schillinger's character was when it aired because I watched it like 7 years after the show ended.

The Luke Skywalker comparison refers to him reaching a low point in Empire before collecting himself and ascending in Return of the Jedi. I'm thinking in this type of show, if they were to portray a heroic protagonist, would you not need to bring him down to his worst point before propping him back up for the climax? Someone suggested that this show should have a Django type character in it, but having never seen it before, I was wondering if Django ever had that same character building dynamic as Luke Skywalker, or was he in full kill machine mode, with no sort of adversity to give the audience any indication that he was in danger.

 

[Ocarina_117]

Sansa simply took the place of another female character, and all the articles about how being forced to have sex with her husband ruined her character in the show look like utter nonsense now.

Dany was raped in the books by Drogo, unless you think a 13 year old can consent to sex with a man twice her age that she was sold to as a sex slave. To quote your beloved GRRM, Dany was grateful he "could not see the tears that wet her face, and could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain". Book readers and their double standards are laughable.

Imagine having disdain for book readers. I know, at least, have context for your childish outburst in the game of thrones thread.

Have you read the books? The Ramsay rape is never ever seen. It's mentioned by a totally different character in passing. There is no detail, its just alluded to and even then its like a paragraph at most . The TV show just had to have an entire scene dedicated to it because we might forget how shitty Ramsay Bolton was and of course, rape gets people talking. Then lets not forget turning a consensual sex scene into a rape because... reasons. Once again this is on the show runners.

Of course he hasn't. Otherwise he'd not make baseless points as he is. I've never witnessed people blame GRRM for the unsavoury parts of the show before, it's ridiculous.

 

[Mumei]

I am curious what time era this will take place. Technically the Civil War was not about slavery it was about how the South wanted to leave the Union and be their own country. Could you imagine the impact on WW1 and WW2 if that would of happended? There are way more variables that just slavery to this.

Yes the Southern states wanted Slavery but they also wanted to leave the Union. I should of worded my post "not just about slavery."

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/articles/reasons-secession

It's a distinction with no difference. Yes, they wanted to form their own country. Why? Slavery. If every answer you give leads back to "slavery", then the correct answer is "slavery." It's obfuscation to avoid that answer.

This examination should begin in South Carolina, the site of our present and past catastrophe. South Carolina was the first state to secede, two months after the election of Abraham Lincoln. It was in South Carolina that the Civil War began, when the Confederacy fired on Fort Sumter. The state’s casus belli was neither vague nor hard to comprehend:

...A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

In citing slavery, South Carolina was less an outlier than a leader, setting the tone for other states, including Mississippi:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…

Louisiana:

As a separate republic, Louisiana remembers too well the whisperings of European diplomacy for the abolition of slavery in the times of an­nexation not to be apprehensive of bolder demonstrations from the same quarter and the North in this country. The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery.

Alabama:

Upon the principles then announced by Mr. Lincoln and his leading friends, we are bound to expect his administration to be conducted. Hence it is, that in high places, among the Republi­can party, the election of Mr. Lincoln is hailed, not simply as it change of Administration, but as the inauguration of new princi­ples, and a new theory of Government, and even as the downfall of slavery. Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans.

Texas:

...in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states....

None of this was new. In 1858, the eventual president of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis threatened secession should a Republican be elected to the presidency:

I say to you here as I have said to the Democracy of New York, if it should ever come to pass that the Constitution shall be perverted to the destruction of our rights so that we shall have the mere right as a feeble minority unprotected by the barrier of the Constitution to give an ineffectual negative vote in the Halls of Congress, we shall then bear to the federal government the relation our colonial fathers did to the British crown, and if we are worthy of our lineage we will in that event redeem our rights even if it be through the process of revolution

.

And they had dreams of expanding. They didn't just want to be left alone:

Slaveholders were not modest about the perceived virtues of their way of life. In the years leading up to the Civil War, calls for expansion into the tropics reached a fever pitch, and slaveholders marveled at the possibility of spreading a new empire into central America:

Looking into the possibilities of the future, regarding the magnificent country of tropical America, which lies in the path of our destiny on this continent, we may see an empire as powerful and gorgeous as ever was pictured in our dreams of history. What is that empire? It is an empire founded on military ideas; representing the noble peculiarities of Southern civilization; including within its limits the isthmuses of America and the regenerated West Indies; having control of the two dominant staples of the world's commerce—cotton and sugar; possessing the highways of the world's commerce; surpassing all empires of the age in the strength of its geographical position; and, in short, combining elements of strength, prosperity, and glory, such as never before in the modern ages have been placed within the reach of a single government. What a splendid vision of empire!

How sublime in its associations! How noble and inspiriting the idea, that upon the strange theatre of tropical America, once, if we may believe the dimmer facts of history, crowned with magnificent empires and flashing cities and great temples, now covered with mute ruins, and trampled over by half-savages, the destiny of Southern civilization is to be consummated in a glory brighter even than that of old, the glory of an empire, controlling the commerce of the world, impregnable in its position, and representing in its internal structure the most harmonious of all the systems of modern civilization.

Edward Pollard, the journalist who wrote that book, titled it Black Diamonds Gathered In The Darkey Homes Of The South. Perhaps even this is too subtle. In 1858, Mississippi Senator Albert Gallatin Brown was clearer:

I want Cuba, and I know that sooner or later we must have it. If the worm-eaten throne of Spain is willing to give it for a fair equivalent, well—if not, we must take it. I want Tamaulipas, Potosi, and one or two other Mexican States; and I want them all for the same reason—for the planting and spreading of slavery.

And a footing in Central America will powerfully aid us in acquiring those other states. It will render them less valuable to the other powers of the earth, and thereby diminish competition with us. Yes, I want these countries for the spread of slavery. I would spread the blessings of slavery, like the religion of our Divine Master, to the uttermost ends of the earth, and rebellious and wicked as the Yankees have been, I would even extend it to them.

I would not force it upon them, as I would not force religion upon them, but I would preach it to them, as I would preach the gospel. They are a stiff-necked and rebellious race, and I have little hope that they will receive the blessing, and I would therefore prepare for its spread to other more favored lands.

And remember when you parrot Lost Cause mythology:

The first people to question that mythology were themselves Confederates, distraught to find their motives downplayed or treated as embarrassments. A Richmond-based newspaper offered the following:

‘The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.

Even after the war, as the Lost Cause rose, many veterans remained clear about why they had rallied to the Confederate flag. “I’ve never heard of any other cause than slavery,” wrote Confederate commander John S. Mosby. The progeny of the Confederacy repeatedly invoked slavery as the war’s cause.

No it couldn't have. The Confederacy fought to maintain the institution of slavery, this is fact. But that institution wasn't going to remain economically or even sociologically viable for more than a few decades at most.

Slavery was dead, no matter what had happened. There was never ever the possibility that it continued as an open and avowed institution, especially since without the great migration after the civil war, black folks would have far HIGHER population numbers to their white counterparts within a generation, they already were 50% of the total population of the south at the time.

You're too optimistic, I think. For one, even while it was officially illegal, the South continued to use slave labor through the 1940s in the form of contract leasing, with the vast majority of the black population who weren't in that situation so constrained by a web of laws and extralegal threats (like lynching) that though nominally free, they weren't really free. And the South had already begun diversifying its slavery practices by the 1860s. They were already using slaves to mine for ore by the end of the war; the foundry, arsenal, mines, and furnaces in Alabama, increasingly run by slave labor as the war came to its end, became integral to the Confederacy's ability to make arms.

This was the basis for a later shift to industrial slavery, which was more brutal than the slavery that preceded it. In the first two years that Alabama started leasing its prisoners, 20 percent died; 35 percent in the second; 45 percent in the fourth. This practice was wildly profitable, bringing tens of millions of dollars into state government coffers and creating the single largest revenue for Alabama. Even today, though far less brutal than it was prison slave labor remains widespread.

And if the South felt like they too large a slave population to control, I think I'd sooner expect genocide than abolition. Though I imagine it'd simply lead to much more brutal practices in which slaves weren't viewed as holding as much value individually and were worked to death.

Plus you have to consider the possibility that the South would try to further expand south, as I mentioned earlier in this post. I think that it's just too optimistic to assume that slavery would've simply faded away.

 

[NoName999]

Please see my last post I clarified my statement instead of just continually shiting on me

EVERY reason in your last post points back to slavery

State rights.... to own slaves

Lincoln's election... "he's gonna take away our slaves"

Economic Anxiety.... for the rich "who's gonna pick muh cotton? You mean i'm gonna have to PAY people. Rather have free labor." For the poor "the slaves are gonna take our jerbs"

The reason they wanted to leave was because they wanted to continue SLAVERY. No ifs, no ands, or no buts

 

[oneils]

Please see my last post I clarified my statement instead of just continually shiting on me

Not just about slavery it's also about wanting to form their own country? Why would they want to do that? So they could keep slaves, maybe?

 

[entremet]

I'm interested in the show since I love GoT, but I have no issues with people's skepticism and criticism about the premise. Especially looking how things are still today with insanely racist criminal justice system.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Not just about slavery it's also about wanting to form their own country? Why would they want to do that? So they could keep slaves, maybe?

Slavery was not the only factor it was a major Factor thar caused the sucession that caused the Civil War. You can continually try to point it back to that reason but it's not 100% the reason why the war started in the first place. And the facts are there to back it up