Yeah. So in the end there would have still been two germanys without good negotiations
Helmut Kohl, ex-chancellor and architect of German reunification, dies aged 87
- Thread starter Perfect Blue
- Start date
Yeah. So in the end there would have still been two germanys without good negotiations
I've been there too, and I'm convinced The protest would have either fizzled out or ended like on 17th June, had we not gotten the encouragement from the West German government. And yes, I still remember how much SPD politicians wanted to discourage us.
This is not about giving directions, but giving hope. If you ever stand across riot police just waiting for the Go to slaughter you down, you'll know what I mean.
waveuponwave
Member
Not a fan of his economic policies (mostly cutting taxes for the rich, and his government pretty much let the whole GDR industry sector collapse without even trying to save some of it, leading to huge unemployment) and his involvement in the CDU donation scandal is shady, but of course he is still a very influental politician who shaped Europe as we know it today
He always supported the European unification and actually treated our neighbor countries as partners, not like other the CDU politicians like Schäuble who seem ro get off on lecturing them about their supposed lack of reforms
So RIP
He always supported the European unification and actually treated our neighbor countries as partners, not like other the CDU politicians like Schäuble who seem ro get off on lecturing them about their supposed lack of reforms
So RIP
guggnichso
Banned
Kohls legacy will always divide the german people, for decades to come. He was a stubborn, headstrong politician who delayed necessary reforms till he left office. He caved to the german ultra right when they burned asylum seekers and their homes in east germany in the early 90s. He most likely was corrupt and till his end shielded corruption within the CDU. However, he also continued easing the strain between the east and the west, was his actions were essential in the fall of the iron curtain, he managed to negotiate a peaceful german renunification agains all odds and agains enemies from the east and west. He kept germany as a peaceful state and shaped german pragmatism like only Merkel since then. He was instrumental in shaping the EU and the Euro.
He was definitely a "Jahrhundert"-politician, divisive, but essential to german and european identity. Rest in peace, chancellor Kohl. I hope you managed to make peace with your son in the end.
He was definitely a "Jahrhundert"-politician, divisive, but essential to german and european identity. Rest in peace, chancellor Kohl. I hope you managed to make peace with your son in the end.
CertifiedFP
Member
My family won't ever forget either.
I want my family's land back that the Soviets stole from us that his reunified government refused to restore.
And plenty of others with Junker ancestry would agree as well.
RIP
Was four when Schröder took over from him so don't have much of an opinion about him.
Darauf ein Muckefuck!
Was four when Schröder took over from him so don't have much of an opinion about him.
Darauf ein Muckefuck!
Best picture of him
that's a good pic indeed
I still cant understand what these people must have smoked back then. So stupid arguments.
This is the first time I've seen a bona fide "Please think of the Nazis!" post on Gaf. Really good look.
Their Plan was to ensure peace in Europe by normalizing the relationship with Honecker and his regime. This Plan might have worked, had we not realized we would have gotten Sold out with a Deal like this. And Kohl / Genscher and their government basically saying fuck that, let's help these people get their freedom.
I mean, it is not a coincidence the East Germans overwhelmingly voted for Kohl in the first free elections. We wanted to say thank you.
Escape Goat
Member
With each survivor of that era dieing I can't help but feel a little sad we move ever close to truly leaving the horrors and heroes of that time in the history books for people to forget/blunt the impact of. I was always asking my great grandparents about their life in the great depression and ww2. but my grandfather wouldn't talk about the war with anyone, even his wife.
I was more thinking about some of the words in the vein of that germany must be divided forever to remind us of the Nazis.
Patrick Bateman
Member
I never had the chance to witness life in the GDR personally (which I'm glad for as I witnessed the life in East Germany ten years later), yet I still think that some of you might have some fan fiction about Kohl going on.
That you tell me to fuck off, just because I don't love him as much as you do, does throw another shadow on the topic.
There is a difference between not "loving someone" and you Saying good riddance about the death of a man.
You are free to think whatever you want, ironically also in no small Part thanks to him.
But expressing your "Lack of love" for the Man on his dying day with the words "good riddance" and "utterly despicable" denies you every right on an adult conversation and discussion, and can only be answered The way I did.
kingkaiser
Member
It's not that you have to love him, but certainly to respect his accomplishments. And boy, the peaceful reunification back then was one hell of an accomplishment.
That's a certainly a creative way to paraphrase your earlier verdict that Kohl is an "utterly despicable man".
But then again, on GAF's OT side, anonymous nobodies are recreationally defaming public personalities in the harshest terms for the most mundane reasons every day like there is nothing to it. Guess that culture rubs off easily.
Patrick S.
Banned
RIP. I was deeply saddened by how he was forced to live his final years. He didn't deserve that.
He was a man that did a lot for my country. When he was chancellor, somehow normal families could live in the way I got to know as a kid: dad workedd, mum stayed at home, we had our own house, dad drove a new Mercedes that was paid off, and my mum had a new Alfa Romeo. And we weren't rich; my dad was a dental technician and my mum had been working at some state agency.
That's something that is less and less of a given these days. Both parents have to work their asses off to be able to pay rent in a moderately decent apartment and pay off cars and debts. More and more taxes with less and less benefits in exchange, more expensive everything, worse health services, inflation... It sucks. A fucking jar of Nutella costs almost three Euro now, FFS. Twenty years ago, we didn't look at food prices at all, today I buy off brand hazelnut spread.
At least we got a (shitty) minimum wage now, but temporal employmemt, Hartz IV and other shit SPD left as legacy is still too damn high.
I don't know how much of this has to do with Kohl, all I'm saying is back then life seemed better.
He was a man that did a lot for my country. When he was chancellor, somehow normal families could live in the way I got to know as a kid: dad workedd, mum stayed at home, we had our own house, dad drove a new Mercedes that was paid off, and my mum had a new Alfa Romeo. And we weren't rich; my dad was a dental technician and my mum had been working at some state agency.
That's something that is less and less of a given these days. Both parents have to work their asses off to be able to pay rent in a moderately decent apartment and pay off cars and debts. More and more taxes with less and less benefits in exchange, more expensive everything, worse health services, inflation... It sucks. A fucking jar of Nutella costs almost three Euro now, FFS. Twenty years ago, we didn't look at food prices at all, today I buy off brand hazelnut spread.
At least we got a (shitty) minimum wage now, but temporal employmemt, Hartz IV and other shit SPD left as legacy is still too damn high.
I don't know how much of this has to do with Kohl, all I'm saying is back then life seemed better.
Mysterious
Banned
She tried to undermine The negotiations, basically saying a reunificated Germany would equate a 4th Reich.
guggnichso
Banned
Sorry, forget this post.
CertifiedFP
Member
TIL that landlords = Nazis.
Nice try, bruv, but noone in my family had any involvement with the Nazis or their crimes. The Junker class being tied to the Nazis was bullshit made up by the Soviets as a paper-thin justification to steal people's land.
So at best your family were rent seeking lords?
I think there is enough to criticize him about, from his political failures, from his behavior and twisted morals to the accusations about him regarding Hannelore. He was arguably a great man, but I struggle to wholeheartedly call him a good man. He tainted his legacy. Nonetheless, this is a monumental loss and he accomplished a lot of great things that he will, deservedly, be remembered for fondly and be respected forever for. May he rest in peace.
surely you understand theres more nuance to that situation
This redistribution happened decades before you were born.
I'm sorry that you have to endure the unimaginable suffering of being a normal person in one of the richest countries on the planet.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
No. I'm making a facetious comment like they did, maybe slightly less shallow since I'm actually tying quality of life into tangible things like personal financial security and not something silly like whether or not I can buy a banana.
The saddest thing about East Germany is that their misery was more due to their supposed benefactors and "saviors", yet the Soviets bled them dry out of vengeance.
Because I'm somewhat Left you automatically knee jerk to "North Korea", so since you're somewhat not Left is it fair for me to automatically assume you're a Nazi? No. Of course not. Stop being stupid.
The crimes of the East German regime are similar to the crimes perpetrated to give people Banana's year round. If one is okay, I guess so is the other.
Unless you're over 50 years old, your opinion really isn't relevant.
The perpetual Grinding Poverty of East Germany has been dismantled and exported to states like Ireland and Greece, Bangladesh, and Mexico.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
Good film! Sad film! People are liberated and immediately lose their job security, access to education, no longer have adequate health care, and trade it all for the totalitarian experience of advertising and commodity.
Hope the
bananas
CertifiedFP
Member
My eyes are rolling into the back of my head reading this crap.
I'd say the "Not being vanished following a visit from the STASI" is a pretty big gain.
Oh and is "Job Security" what we now call being a slave of the State? Look at all that Job Security in Belarus and North Korea! We should all be so jealous of their low unemployment rates.
...I'm not even going to bother humoring the rest of your "points" before I end up getting a nosebleed. Jesus christ it's been years since I saw someone on GAF so proactively defend the actions of the totalitarian DDR and other Soviet puppets.
Oh and just to remind people, I found this gem in your post history:
Frankfurter
Member
RIP Helmut Kohl.
Without a doubt among the most important politicans in post-WW2 Europe.
Without a doubt among the most important politicans in post-WW2 Europe.
Yes, judging your age by the childish drivel you spout, yes, I could easily be your granddad.
And no, I'm not deigning your "points" with a detailed rebuttal. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
My best advice would be, talk to the GAFers in Venezuela right now. They will give you a current perspective on life in a socialist paradise.
If you catch me saying moronic nonsense like that the crimes of fascist, authoritarian regimes are "are similar to the crimes perpetrated to give people Banana's year round. If one is okay, I guess so is the other", then I'll allow you to call me a Somewhat Nazi.
HammerOfThor
Member
You know, it's kind of sad. One of the most important political leaders of the late twentieth century dies, and there aren't even 100 replies.
Trump mistypes on Twitter: 1,300 replies.
CNN video, in case you don't know who Helmut Kohl was:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7c_OMc-QiSw
Trump mistypes on Twitter: 1,300 replies.
CNN video, in case you don't know who Helmut Kohl was:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7c_OMc-QiSw
petran79
Banned
He and Merkel did not get along well
Patrick S.
Banned
He was in a wheelchair and unable to speak.
Green Yoshi
Member
Rest in Peace.
He wanted a European Germany and not a German Europe like Merkel.
His party received illegal donations and he didn't want to reveal the donors.
In 2008, he suffered a stroke in combination with a fall which caused serious head injuries and required his hospitalization, after which he was reported as bound to a wheelchair due to partial paralysis and with difficulty speaking.
He wanted a European Germany and not a German Europe like Merkel.
His party received illegal donations and he didn't want to reveal the donors.
In 2008, he suffered a stroke in combination with a fall which caused serious head injuries and required his hospitalization, after which he was reported as bound to a wheelchair due to partial paralysis and with difficulty speaking.
Just thought the same thing.
Despite all his fault, and even if it is far from perfect, the german reunification could have been really ugly or not even happen at all without such strong leadership. Just try to picture Trump trying to accomplish that...
Muffin1611
Banned
What is it with crappy posts like this?
This "Germany is using the EU for the Fourth Reich" meme is really getting old.
Retrospectively, I don't agree with all of his policies, but he deserves credit for the German reunification and for how smoothly it went down. There are not a lot of leaders who would have accomplished the same thing.
Rest in peace!
gtfooh
Rest in peace!
gtfooh
thesuperfunk
Member
RIP.
Patrick Bateman
Member
I don't think you qualifiy for an "adult conversation" with your choice of words, either. But I'm glad you enjoy your freedom that way.
Take it from someone who was born and partially raised in the eastern bloc - signing up for mortages and getting into debt was the least of our concerns considering our currencies were undervalued to the point of being worthless and there was nothing to buy in the first place since most basic goods were rationed and only available through food stamps given out monthly with an modest employee's pay.
Regardless of what some Gaffers may believe, debt is not something that's forced onto you, unless you live in a former eastern bloc country which is still paying off communist debt accumulated during the 1970s when western credits paid for a short-lived consumer boom.
.... off.
Enough cowards came back after 1990 to demand their land back and enough got their way and displaced families from their homes and did nothing for the community that they forcefully injected themselves. They did not make jobs, they gave them to their buddies or family members.
So in our Village we lost access to over 20% of the village because this junker asshole fenced off the whole area. And we kids lost over half of our playgrounds, a lake, a park and a nice "castle". (that's what the Gutsherrenhaus was called by us kids)