Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
psalm's greymane guide highlights an issue with Greymane.
He fits every comp and has few counters.
He fits every comp and has few counters.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
He's become too difficult to gank and cursed bullet makes it impossible to counter him with a heavy frontline.
Also any Uther buff is a Gmane buff.
Also any Uther buff is a Gmane buff.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You just noted all the heroes Psalm does except Guldan in place of Sonya.
All those heroes are more niche than Greymane is the issue with that and might not gel with the comp you were setting out to draft.
All those heroes are more niche than Greymane is the issue with that and might not gel with the comp you were setting out to draft.
Oh i didnt read the article, but my argument is basically yeah he's likely the strongest general ranged assassin but in this meta he's not first pick or anything and is counterable down the line so that needs to be considered. That and picking him willy nilly will often serve to block you out of tech picks like tychus or guldan. To this end, i feel like it's the assassin pool that is lacking, need more optionz
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
when was the last time assassins were must first picks in general. Ragnaros pre nerfs?
For ranged...prob when raynor was bugged? Beyond that all i can think of is kael. On certain maps it's fine to instapick guldan...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Oh yeah that happened but my point is that arguing he's fine because he's not being first picked is not much of an argument when other roles are just more prioritised in draft.
I don't think you have to go ham on greymane but there should probably be a slight nerf to armor and cursed bullet.
There are plenty of assassins.
Gmane picked every game with the same build. Never punished.
They should nerf gmanes Q in worgen form so it doesn't move him forward at all. Then provide it as a talent at 4 or 7. Or increase the CD on disengage after good my into worgen form. He feels unintentionally more mobile then he should be.
Gmane picked every game with the same build. Never punished.
They should nerf gmanes Q in worgen form so it doesn't move him forward at all. Then provide it as a talent at 4 or 7. Or increase the CD on disengage after good my into worgen form. He feels unintentionally more mobile then he should be.
scoobs
Member
Oh my god no
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
he was in a fine spot until cursed bullet and uther buffs
Oh yeah i didnt mean for it to come off that way, just thinking about where he is at out loud. In general i think he's in a good spot balance-wise. It's just compared to his counterparts and due to various factors he's the best choice in a lot of scenarios. It used to be that if you wanted mixed dmg you could default to valla too. You still kinda can, but yeah in terms of risk/reward and skill needed to be succesful gmane is way less risk and easier to play. Agree that he doesn't need the armor.
scoobs
Member
Meanwhile, GFTT is still the most picked ult and a much higher win percentage. Cursed Bullet is fine, good only against certain team comps, which is how ults should be.
The only thing you could nerf with Greymane would be his cocktail talents, but his winrate is fine so you'd just be nerfing him because he's a good hero which is stupid. He's at 50%, and 51% in master league, what's the dire problem here exactly?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
because it's GFtT is still the better ult but cursed bullet gives greymane game against comps that put a heavy frontline to protect their backliners Greymane would like to jump onto with GFtF.
When using Master League it allows you to select patches, he has a +60% popularity the last 700 matches (up till including Lucio patch) only behind Malfurion. With a positive winrate.
Gmane def meant to be mobile.
When im talking about the ranged assassin pool im thinking about the specialization each hero represents. So falstad for global/utility, gmane for poke/single target burst, valla for burst/single target sustained dpz with her ms talent, etc. A lot of balancing they do revolves around furthering these specializations, which imo is great. From my perspective it's not really that greymane suddenly became too strong via buff; his armor allows for too favorable trades but that's more of a qm thing since he should be in the 3/4 man in real play, and his cursed bullet is not a tychus replacement nor is it effective without proper drafting (you trade back line threat for the oppurtunity to all-in someone on the front line with your team). Instead, this meta, which is warrior heavy and mobility heavy, has shoved a lot of stuff out. Valla is risky (esp. w/ tass gone), falstad is risky, mages are risky, and so on. Greymane is the safest pick and can contribute variably. Imo his safety is built into his kit and doesnt have much to do with his armor or anything (tho it def contributes meaningfully); he never needs to put himself in a bad position to get things done, compared to valla (e dmg, q positioning), tychus (low range), or falstad (w range, gust plays), due to his gap closer being burst dmg and mainly used as a finisher. After they nerfed his worgen dmg and made the lvl 1 w talent baseline they made him a very general character. The only thing he doesn't have is a great source of magic dmg.
Anyway, the point of this is to say that i think that while gmane could use a nerf his popularity atm is symptomatic of a meta that's not so kind to specialization in terms of comp vs. comp and very much about brute forcing, counterpicking via armor type, and mobility so you dont get run over by the frontline goon squad. Imo the ranged assassin pool needs bolstering because there should be an answer in that category for this meta. Instead what you get are mainly workarounds; genji for dive/mobility, greymane for safety and adaptability, map specific picks and armor counters like li ming/guldan, like there is no ranged assassin that handles a sonya/anub combo or arthas/anub very well, there is no incentive from this role to not go front line heavy. A deeper ranged assassin pool would only help the situation out
When im talking about the ranged assassin pool im thinking about the specialization each hero represents. So falstad for global/utility, gmane for poke/single target burst, valla for burst/single target sustained dpz with her ms talent, etc. A lot of balancing they do revolves around furthering these specializations, which imo is great. From my perspective it's not really that greymane suddenly became too strong via buff; his armor allows for too favorable trades but that's more of a qm thing since he should be in the 3/4 man in real play, and his cursed bullet is not a tychus replacement nor is it effective without proper drafting (you trade back line threat for the oppurtunity to all-in someone on the front line with your team). Instead, this meta, which is warrior heavy and mobility heavy, has shoved a lot of stuff out. Valla is risky (esp. w/ tass gone), falstad is risky, mages are risky, and so on. Greymane is the safest pick and can contribute variably. Imo his safety is built into his kit and doesnt have much to do with his armor or anything (tho it def contributes meaningfully); he never needs to put himself in a bad position to get things done, compared to valla (e dmg, q positioning), tychus (low range), or falstad (w range, gust plays), due to his gap closer being burst dmg and mainly used as a finisher. After they nerfed his worgen dmg and made the lvl 1 w talent baseline they made him a very general character. The only thing he doesn't have is a great source of magic dmg.
Anyway, the point of this is to say that i think that while gmane could use a nerf his popularity atm is symptomatic of a meta that's not so kind to specialization in terms of comp vs. comp and very much about brute forcing, counterpicking via armor type, and mobility so you dont get run over by the frontline goon squad. Imo the ranged assassin pool needs bolstering because there should be an answer in that category for this meta. Instead what you get are mainly workarounds; genji for dive/mobility, greymane for safety and adaptability, map specific picks and armor counters like li ming/guldan, like there is no ranged assassin that handles a sonya/anub combo or arthas/anub very well, there is no incentive from this role to not go front line heavy. A deeper ranged assassin pool would only help the situation out
WonderRade
Member
well on the subject of helping the assassin pool, what do you think should be done to help zul'jin? speed increase baseline on Q? replace his E with the snare net?
WonderRade
Member
"And finally, Blizzard will hold a livestream beginning at 10 am PT on June 5, featuring members of the development team "playing, chatting, and checking out the newest Hero to enter the Nexus," plus "games, giveaways, and more." The stream will run all day long on Twitch."
now, the question becomes, do they mean D-Va, or we will get a new announcement / release (or PTR release at least) in the next 5 days?
Source
now, the question becomes, do they mean D-Va, or we will get a new announcement / release (or PTR release at least) in the next 5 days?
Source
WonderRade
Member
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
what a disappointing but expected move by naventic.
Picking up iDream is fine, I think...though I hope he knows WTF he's getting into going onto that team. He's going from never being on a team with a real leader to Zuna swinging the dick around on the daily and his brother as the coach. Kind of confused by the bige to support, though. That just shows how little they value that role compared to other teams.
Of course it's not D.Va. They aren't gonna do a stream hyping a hero that's been out basically three weeks.
They have to do it June 5th to meet the release window by June 6th...or perhaps give us a real delay and PTR it til the 13th.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
BigE apparently played support in league but now they don't have a maintank once again. Maybe the third time's the charm and Zuna will do it this time.
edit: legit forgot bkid
edit: legit forgot bkid
3/4s the norm, 3/3 is actually rare.
WonderRade
Member
i blame naventic for this
Oi.
I wont take that kind of trash talk from a dirty McCree player.
Also buy Butcher on sale tomorow so we can do Medivh / Butcher combo :3
What? I don't play McCree at all, lul.
I tilt-bought Lunara earlier, I don't think I'm gonna buy The Butcher.
I looked and it's not even 3/4 that is the norm. Last year there was a lot of just plain 4/4. They've kind of snuck it in there on us, slowed down the development without anyone really noticing from when we expected 3/3 and the occasional 3/4 when this speedy development was first announced. I'm surprised. Really felt like we were doing every 3 weeks...but that may be because it's announced on PTR so I am just mentally neglecting to add that extra week.
Here's the list going back to last January:
Genji --- Dva: 3 weeks
Cassia --- Genji: 4 weeks
Probius --- Cassia: 3 weeks
Lucio --- Probius: 4 weeks
Valeera --- Lucio: 3 weeks
Zul'jin --- Valeera: 3 weeks
Ragnaros --- Zul'jin: 3 weeks
Varian --- Ragnaros: 4 weeks
Samuro --- Varian: 4 weeks
Zarya --- Samuro: 3 weeks
Alarak --- Zarya: 2 weeks
Auriel --- Alarak: 5 weeks
Gul'dan --- Auriel: 4 weeks
Medivh --- Gul'dan: 4 weeks
Chromie --- Medivh: 4 weeks
Tracer --- Chromie: 3 weeks
Dehaka --- Tracer: 4 weeks
Xul --- Dehaka: 4 weeks
Li-Ming --- Xul: 4 weeks
Greymane --- Li-Ming: 3 weeks
Lunara --- Greymane: 4 weeks
Sooooo...
4/3/4/4/4/3/4/4/4/5/2/3/4/4/3/3/3/4/3/4/3
I'd be shocked if an OW hero is next. I'd be even more shocked if it's Junkrat. Seems pretty unlikely given the bitching the HOTS community does about OW heroes.
That gameplay part is... not untrue. Not necessarily the movement thing but just in general, as someone who has vocally been playing all the heroes lately, playing those older ones (even with reworks) compared to the ones released in the last year or so and its kinda rough. I mean we had pages of Raynor discussion, or look at Arthas who, while mechanically fine, is just so boring and bland.
But isnt that the same in any moba? I would imagine so no?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That's just the devs improving overall. OW heroes in particular have attributes like run and gun that don't jive so well witht he rest of the heroes that are stutter stepping.