But isn't the alt-right truly a "fringe" group? Isn't the tide of generational Western culture as a whole leaning more and more progressive?
Hillary: Trump embraces the alt-right, a fringe racist element. Enough is enough
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But isn't the alt-right truly a "fringe" group? Isn't the tide of generational Western culture as a whole leaning more and more progressive?
That's where the misunderstanding lies then. I do get your point although as has been noted I'm not sure how much this kind of bigotry will go away by generations passing on alone. Still not finding the wording perfect though tbh because it seems like exactly the kind of language these people would use/have used in the past.
I don't appreciate your aggressiveness and I don't see how this has anything to do with an both sides argument. Being anti-Trump doesn't make you exempt from criticism where its due and using language of "lowest scum" and "their kind will go extinct" (before he now clarified) is/was critiqueworthy imo.
excelsiorlef
Member
You heard it here first folks hating white supremacists is just the same as being one...
Are you serious?
Not what I said at all, you seem to be inserting your own biases.
Is that due to the increased ratios of Caucasian homogeneity?
excelsiorlef
Member
You claimed the poster was engaging in identical language to white supremacists....
What was your intention then?
What "critique" are you actually offering?
TheCoastline
Member
Again, this is not a thread about how people are mean to nazis. You are giving nazis, including the nazis Trump employs, and racists, including Trump, cover by changing the subject of conversation.
No one but you was confused about Nerrel meant. Similar language, sure, but you have ignored the context of neo-nazis and anti-nazis
In regards to the wording - when you hear "the lowest scum ... their kind will go extinct" you will think of white supremecists/hardcore bigots/etc typically using this language, which is why I found it ironic that someone unironically used it in an arguement against said people. That doesn't mean "Both sides are equally bad! I'm secretly voting Trump", it means despite being on the right side you should still not stoop to a low level/use such inciting language imo.
excelsiorlef
Member
No only you would think that.... I think nazis are terrible and their ideology will hopefully die out soon for the better of the world at large.
So this is basically a don't be mean to nazis argument?
You think that calling the people who say things like this....
...scum is uncalled for? Because I'd love for you to explain to me why I should be going softer on them.
This thread isn't going very well is it....
I mean. You're not wrong.
Ayato Kanzaki
Member
In Europe there are currently some frictions between catholics and muslims, but it's on a far lower scale that what the media would make you believe.
However, you shouldn't compare the idiots in Europe with your alt-right, as they're not nearly as malicious. They may be fools and xenophobes, but they don't hack accounts of black celebrities, don't see their governements as conspiring against them, and they don't harass women because they're women.
excelsiorlef
Member
No they just pass laws that allow the police in groups to harass muslim women and make them take off some of their clothing in the name of fighting terrorism and radical extremism
Oh and vote for economic ruin in the name of sticking it to dem foreigners/
No, insult them all you want. I just can't help but find it ironic when you however use the same typical language as them as in "scum that should be extinct". Maybe it's a language thing, in german it would be pretty much the naziest thing you could say. Which again doesn't mean I'm equating the two but being on the right side doesn't give you a free pass on everything either. In any case, I think the discussion has run its course and I feel like now its just semantics and I don't want to derail even further.
Because European GAF like to smugly come into race threads and say it isn't an issue in Europe when actually of its as much of an issue as it is in the US.
Well, the question was if "the tide of generational Western culture as a whole leaning more and more progressive" will save us. And it's true that the youth are generally always more left leaning than any other group but that doesn't mean much since it often doesn't last, and demographics come into play. The US is going to be spared this fascist death spiral because the far right can't win national elections anymore due to demographics, but the difference in the demographics of European countries means the far right parties are making significant progress and there's no sign of a strong youth counterculture blocking it except in some particular places like Greece where there are still a ton of socialists and anarchists who are willing to do street battles when it comes down to it.
I just don't think we should pin our hopes on Millennials in Europe to fix what's going on there.
edit: also, the above
The real answer is that everyone needs a smacking.
Aaronology
Member
Yep. This happens in every large thread involving race relations in the US, almost without fail.
At least many of us here in the US can admit how fucked up our country is.
Believe it or not, there is a time and a place for harsh condemnations, and this is it. Just because those groups speak in extreme terms doesn't mean that it's immediately inappropriate for anyone else to, or that expressing disgust automatically makes your rhetoric as bad as theirs. There's a pretty big fucking difference between white supremacists talking about wanting others to literally go extinct and me saying I want their ideology to go extinct... in case you didn't realize it, you're the only one making an "ironic" connection there. I think most people recognize that the two things (white supremacy and the hatred of it) are so different that even trying to suggest a connection is unreasonable.
I know you want out of this argument, but I'm curious how you would describe these individuals. What kind of language would you use? Would you be gentler? And why?
I have a multiracial family and I see no reason to restrain my thoughts about people who say those kinds of things about people I love. Sorry, I'm not even going to consider for a second that that somehow equates me white supremacists.
I really felt the need to take this time to explain to you that it is, in fact, OK to shit on hategroups. This is the one time when using hateful speech is pretty much the right thing to do.
I remember a number of years ago, there was a thread (think it was one of the early immigration threads) where several Europeans (presumably) were calling out Americans for making everything about race and not everything is racism. And that it wasn't about race, but 'culture'
I always remember that when Europeans pop into American racism threads like that because I was quite amazed by the denial and delusion.
or blackface threads
Maybe you need to get into 2016 then, because these people themselves think it is a class, the best class. Let's see what Breitbart writes:
'Straight white men banned from equality lectures'
'Why diversity offices should only hire straight white men'
'Why I will only sit on straight white male panels from now on'
'The pressure to self-censor must be almost overwhelming for straight white men...'
'Feminists waging war on Working class men'
Et cetera. These sort of people have made the straight white maleness their battleground and the thing to rally around. The difference to the past is that straight white men used to have all the power and nobody could call them out on it. Hence the calls of 'white genocide' when anyone not in this class tries to do anything.
But yeah, now you know.
So you think that these people decides what is a class and what is not? Do you value their opinion and agree with them in this case? The Breitbart people? Oh my. Yeah, now I know I guess.
Who do you think should decide what class is? 'The official class committee'?
The reality of the world is that lots of angry white straight males have identified themselves as a group that's both oppressed and needing to be on the top again, made it into an actual political movement and are affecting this election right here by hanging out with Trump.
So if you'd just explain why it's necessary to get into this semantics debate when this is the issue?
It is always important with semantics. If you happily group together people in big lumps of awfulness (in this case "male, white and straight"), we are not going down the right path.
But I sense that you and I could go on forever about this. At least we agree on the most important thing, that these people are vile.
toddhunter
Member
You don't really vote for Hillary. You vote for the leader of the democrats.
Just like if you vote for Trump, you are voting for the Republican party platform. Trump doesn't matter, the awful things that the party will do in power are way more important.
Decent Americans should vote against those things, no matter who the other leader is.
Again, you're free to choose whatever heavy insults you like. Its the specific phrase you used, and maybe or probably its a language thing because if you went to 10 people here and presented them with a direct translation quote of "they are the lowest scum, best thimg is when they eventually go extinct" 10 out of 10 people will think its a Neonazi quote. So I guess sorry if that caused the confusion. Personally I would probably call most of them (alt right) bigoted manbabies.
I think especcially in foreign relations the personality does matter and each person always has their own baggage, so saying you just vote the party is probably not so accurate.
gutter_trash
Banned
yes, Trump's baggage is that he is pro-Russia, bows down to Putin and wants to recognize Crimea
Foreign policy does matter, the very reason why Trump is unfit
Someone in the audience yelled "Pepe" when Hillary said "alt-right". It has begun.
Ireland has been leaning left, evidenced in recent elections. #notalleuropeans
Which is all more impressive seeing how Ireland is going through a crisis themselves. Really interesting compared to Greece.
Also Spain and Portugal. Fortunately not all countries fall to the far right.
There's not much to say about gay marriage and the crime bill. In both of those questions she's been consistently in the Democratic mainstream. That turned out to be wrong, but nearly every politician in America was at least as wrong at the time.
Today Democrats have moved on both those issues and so has she, because she faithfully represents Democratic priorities. Which is what I want from her!
Greece went through center-left/"socialists", center-right/conservatives, and now "radical left". Latest polls show leaning towards "reformists", center-right New Democracy again. Far right is still quite far, and Golden Dawn is keeping a low profile these days. It could be much, much worse but it still can get much, much worse.
Monocle
Member
Excellent speech. Hillary pinpointed Trump's disturbing pattern of racism, from his statements to his proposed policies to his allies. The more I see her speak publicly, the more I admire her.
Can any thinking person really watch this woman give a speech like that, then see Trump spew his typical superlative-studded babble, and think "Yep, Trump would definitely be a better president"?
Can any thinking person really watch this woman give a speech like that, then see Trump spew his typical superlative-studded babble, and think "Yep, Trump would definitely be a better president"?
We're all just projecting!
...
It doesn't matter how careful you think you are. Where and how you choose to voice your concerns falls in line with certain biases we've seen many times before.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I very much doubt even trumps most ardant supporters think trump would be a better president.
They just want to beat the liburals...
shadowsdarknes
Member
Oh just stop.
Ideological extinction is not inciteful language when talking about organized racism.
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