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[FunkMiller]

Doesn't occur to you that maybe there shouldn't be that many people in the union/industry in the first place?

Exactly how many people should be in an industry or union?

 

[FunkMiller]

The CEOs and the literal thousands of people around and above them were convinced that giving the customer what they seemed to want with streaming would lead to higher profits indeed set the paradigm for this. But then, the plebs striking now are the ones who were getting undue pay and opportunities as a result.

That's what I think Iger means when he says that these people aren't being realistic. They don't understand that the last 10 years of television production in particular has been facilitated by billions of dollars of losses and debt money. It's literally right there. Profitability is down, but there's more content being produced at higher production values than ever before. It's not even close. It was never realistically sustainable that way.

And yet, Bob Iger makes 27 million a year.

And you're blaming the creative talent for the screw ups of the executives. Don't you think they should lose out on money, not the ones who aren't responsible for the state of things at all?

 

[FunkMiller]

Now if we were discussing construction companies that stiffed workers and couldn't build a proper bridge it would be a different conversation from me. Or electricians wiring up a home or office. Or plumbers managing a sewer system. But this thread is about HOLLYWOOD, a pampered luxury item producer, kinda hard to clutch pearls over this....

And this exactly the problem. A lot of you have basically decided 'fuck Hollywood and anyone in it, because they don't make stuff I like anymore, or have politics I don't agree with'.

Which, needles to say, when it comes the discussion of fair pay, unionisation, and massive conglomerates, this attitude destroys any ability to have a sensible conversation - because Hollywood actors and writers deserve everything they get, for making all that crap, don't they?

...despite the fact that it's the companies who won't pay the actors and writers a fair amount being the ones responsible for that crap.

The point being, the conversation should be the same for any industry, because the same rules and morality should apply, no matter what the profession of the people concerned is.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

And yet, Bob Iger makes 27 million a year.

And you're blaming the creative talent for the screw ups of the executives. Don't you think they should lose out on money, not the ones who aren't responsible for the state of things at all?

So what if he does. He negotiated a $27M package. Just as I said many times, negotiate a pay package.

And this exactly the problem. A lot of you have basically decided 'fuck Hollywood and anyone in it, because they don't make stuff I like anymore, or have politics I don't agree with'.

Which, needles to say, when it comes the discussion of fair pay, unionisation, and massive conglomerates, this attitude destroys any ability to have a sensible conversation - because Hollywood actors and writers deserve everything they get, for making all that crap, don't they?

...despite the fact that it's the companies who won't pay the actors and writers a fair amount being the ones responsible for that crap.

The point being, the conversation should be the same for any industry, because the same rules and morality should apply, no matter what the profession of the people concerned is.

And to me, sensible conversations get thrown out the window when 1,000s of workers dont show up to work. Remember not all workers are unionized in a united front. A lot of people not involved in the issue now get affected too.

As for who who gets paid and who's fault it is for good or bad media, hey if management gets blamed for bad product because they are supposedly the ultimate approvers and responsibility for product quality because no subordinates want to accept responsibility, then hey when times are good then management gets the all kudos too. Makes sense to me. Its not a one way street.

 

[Blade2.0]

On pure job and pay basis, I'd love to work in the US.

My job in the US pays about 20% more, in US currency too, taxes are lower and I can write off mortgage interest. And the cost of a home is way cheaper than where I live.

US head office has 10x the number of people than my regional office with way more job roles available at better pay.

As I said, the money is out there. And no country has more cash flowing than the US.

The money is out there being hoarded in the 1% bank accounts. It isn't there for the taking.

 

[FunkMiller]

So what if he does. He negotiated a $27M package. Just as I said many times, negotiate a pay package.

Yes, it's almost as if there should be some sort of organisation for employees that has the power to negotiate a pay package with employers who would otherwise give unfair terms on an individual basis.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Yes, it's almost as if there should be some sort of organisation for employees that has the power to negotiate a pay package with employers who would otherwise give unfair terms on an individual basis.

Cant be that hard. If youre that good, go talk to the boss or HR.

I have. Do you think I like having a closed door meeting trying to hash out a pay bump? Not fun. I won once, I lost once. Who cares. It takes effort to do it, but it can be done. You dont just show up and say "Hey I want more money and job security". You go in prepared with as much ammo you got prove youre worth an extra $10,000.

And when I didnt get what I wanted I didnt complain on social media, not show up to work or stand in a picket line. I just kept doing my job. It would be pretty stupid for me to not show up and screw up the rest of the department who arent involved in my pay talk.

 

[jason10mm]

And this exactly the problem. A lot of you have basically decided 'fuck Hollywood and anyone in it, because they don't make stuff I like anymore, or have politics I don't agree with'.

Which, needles to say, when it comes the discussion of fair pay, unionisation, and massive conglomerates, this attitude destroys any ability to have a sensible conversation - because Hollywood actors and writers deserve everything they get, for making all that crap, don't they?

...despite the fact that it's the companies who won't pay the actors and writers a fair amount being the ones responsible for that crap.

The point being, the conversation should be the same for any industry, because the same rules and morality should apply, no matter what the profession of the people concerned is.

Thats the point. If the writers and actors don't make stuff I like, WHY would I care about them? If the studios were super popular, every streaming service was flooded with new subs, etc then the writers would have a chance. But that's not the case. Studios are tightening the belt. New technology is coming that will likely make background actors largely superfluous (MORE superfluous, since tech has ALREADY eliminated lots of crowd scenes that used to require real people) and coming up with basic dialogue will need fewer folks since AI is gonna make a first draft. Baaaaaaaaaad time to make your stand IMHO but it's a bold strategy, Cotton, lets see how it works out. As always, the wheat gets sorted from the chaffe.

And I think you can seperate this conversation for other industries. Maybe we can discuss the working conditions of women on Onlyfans, should they unionize and ensure a minimum pay for EVERYONE on the platform, regardless of popularity or content? Can I just post a pic of my big toe every 5 months and still get 2k/mo to live on?

 

[Blade2.0]

The opportunity is a function of the unequal outcomes. The US is stratified across a huge socioeconomic hierarchy that you can attempt to climb with talent, ambition, hard work, or luck. You have more upward mobility in the US than anywhere else in the world, and doing well here beats doing well anywhere else. The lows are also lower for the have-nots.

Global Social Mobility Index 2020 | World Economic Forum

We aren't even in the top 20 of social mobility in the world. Unless you mean that if through some way you do actually become a billionaire that you can make more than you could in any other country...but that isn't a good thing.

 

[funkygunther]

Cant be that hard. If youre that good, go talk to the boss or HR.

I have. Do you think I like having a closed door meeting trying to hash out a pay bump? Not fun. I won once, I lost once. Who cares. It takes effort to do it, but it can be done. You dont just show up and say "Hey I want more money and job security". You go in prepared with as much ammo you got prove youre worth an extra $10,000.

And when I didnt get what I wanted I didnt complain on social media, not show up to work or stand in a picket line. I just kept doing my job. It would be pretty stupid for me to not show up and screw up the rest of the department who arent involved in my pay talk.

you keep falling back to anecdotes despite already admitting that unions have negotiated better pay for their members

 

[StreetsofBeige]

you keep falling back to anecdotes despite already admitting that unions have negotiated better pay for their members

Ya, so if those google articles are right saying a typical union guy gets paid a bit more than a non-union worker, then whats the problem? Sounds like they're getting more than the should they should. Non-union workers arent the ones picketing and whining.

Dont get me wrong, I totally understand unions. Its easier to stand behind a united front behind a union rep than to do it yourself. I get it. In turn, you'll likely get pigeon holed in pay tiers and whatever other rules the union says you have to follow because your freedom an individual is gone. And on top of that you pay union dues. But in life, not everyone wants that and would rather forge their own destiny than selfishly shut down companies.

 

[funkygunther]

Ya, so if those google articles are right saying a typical union guy gets paid a bit more than a non-union worker, then whats the problem? Sounds like they're getting more than the should they should. Non-union workers arent the ones picketing and whining.

Dont get me wrong, I totally understand unions. Its easier to stand behind a united front behind a union rep than to do it yourself. I get it. In turn, you'll likely get pigeon holed in pay tiers and whatever other rules the union says you have to follow because your freedom an individual is gone. And on top of that you pay union dues. But in life, not everyone wants that and would rather forge their own destiny than selfishly shut down companies.

there is no problem, it means the union negotiated better pay for them...and it's not just that it's easier, it's that it's proven to be successful

your conjecture about what is "likely" just exposes some misanthropy about how the idiot worker didn't think about the benefits of membership not outweighing your imagined risks

 

[Blade2.0]

Ya, so if those google articles are right saying a typical union guy gets paid a bit more than a non-union worker, then whats the problem? Sounds like they're getting more than the should they should. Non-union workers arent the ones picketing and whining.

Dont get me wrong, I totally understand unions. Its easier to stand behind a united front behind a union rep than to do it yourself. I get it. In turn, you'll likely get pigeon holed in pay tiers and whatever other rules the union says you have to follow because your freedom an individual is gone. And on top of that you pay union dues. But in life, not everyone wants that and would rather forge their own destiny than selfishly shut down companies.

You stand on the backs of those same Unions "forging your own destiny". You wouldn't have the cushy well paying job you have right this moment without unions.

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

Sorry, but that's idiotic.

87% of SAG AFTRA members (some 140,000 people) don't earn over $26,000 a year, which is the threshold for healthcare insurance. The movie stars aren't the problem here. It's the movie companies.

For Christ's sakes try to at least understand a subject before you comment on it.

Why not both?? If these actos want to fake being sympathic they could at least suggest getting a pay cut like they'd expect the companies should take.

 

[jason10mm]

Ya, so if those google articles are right saying a typical union guy gets paid a bit more than a non-union worker, then whats the problem? Sounds like they're getting more than the should they should. Non-union workers arent the ones picketing and whining.

Dont get me wrong, I totally understand unions. Its easier to stand behind a united front behind a union rep than to do it yourself. I get it. In turn, you'll likely get pigeon holed in pay tiers and whatever other rules the union says you have to follow because your freedom an individual is gone. And on top of that you pay union dues. But in life, not everyone wants that and would rather forge their own destiny than selfishly shut down companies.

Same here. I work in a union environment and there are DEFINTELY folks making less than they are worth because they can't be paid more due to union rules, though far fewer than the undeserving folks that keep their jobs because the union makes it hard to discipline or fire them.

At a large scale though, I think most folks just want security and stability. Most don't want to wake up and know they have to outrun the fastest lion every day or become a meal. Most don't even have the drive to wake up and know they just have to catch the slowest antelope in order to eat. They are more like plants. They just want the sun to rise on time, water to come when it is supposed to, and someone else to do the work of pollenating and harvesting the fruits of their labor. I get it, most folks "work to live" rather than "live to work".

But almost every legit union grievance has been coded into law now. Their relevance is low provided the laws are properly enforced. I prefer trade unions that gatekeep their membership and ensure a level of competency over labor unions that just protect the lazy and hold back the exceptional.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

there is no problem, it means the union negotiated better pay for them...and it's not just that it's easier, it's that it's proven to be successful

your conjecture about what is "likely" just exposes some misanthropy about how the idiot worker didn't think about the benefits of membership not outweighing your imagined risks

It hasnt been successful. Union membership has dropped like a rock the past 50 years in the US. The reason why is because the costs and quality arent worth it. It's better to actually go through the costs and transfer of production to other countries who can do it as good or cheaper. Now if the workers can show getting paid more locally is a better than outsourcing half way around the world at half price, then you keep your job.

People can earn a living in the US perfectly fine with solid wages. You just got to prove it. If not, you'll get fired or the job will transfer. It comes down to that. And at this time, AI is a threat to media's job security and pay. Well, all they got to do is prove a human brain is more valuable to the company than a bot and you keep your job. If they cant, then AI will take over.

No different than self checkout kiosks. It costs a lot of money to install, pay leases, and absorb shoftlifters not scanning the item. But it sure seems every big box store has a section of self checkouts. Long term its better service, faster, and cheaper. Now if the cashiers were proven to be much better than self checkout scanners, you wouldnt have any stores going through the hassle or cost of implementing the system at stores with head office IT programming.

 

[funkygunther]

It hasnt been successful. Union membership has dropped like a rock the past 50 years in the US. The reason why is because the costs and quality arent worth it. It's better to actually go through the costs and transfer of production to other countries who can do it as good or cheaper. Now if the workers can show getting paid more locally is a better than outsourcing half way around the world at half price, then you keep your job.

People can earn a living in the US perfectly fine with solid wages. You just got to prove it. If not, you'll get fired or the job will transfer. It comes down to that. And at this time, AI is a threat to media's job security and pay. Well, all they got to do is prove a human brain is more valuable to the company than a bot and you keep your job. If they cant, then AI will take over.

No different than self checkout kiosks. It costs a lot of money to install, pay leases, and absorb shoftlifters not scanning the item. But it sure seems every big box store has a section of self checkouts. Long term its better service, faster, and cheaper. Now if the cashiers were proven to be much better than self checkout scanners, you wouldnt have any stores going through the hassle or cost of implementing the system at stores with head office IT programming.

you can't come here saying that union workers get paid more than non-union ones and then turn around to say negotiating for more pay hasn't been successful, the evidence is right there in your own post

 

[FunkMiller]

Why not both?? If these actos want to fake being sympathic they could at least suggest getting a pay cut like they'd expect the companies should take.

I find the defence of large conglomerates fascinating. As if you wouldn't be up in arms against them if it affected your livelihood

The problem is not with movie stars being paid a lot, the problem is with movie companies refusing to pay the rest of the non famous actors a fair wage.

And guess what? If they are forced into doing that, then the movie stars will get less.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Same here. I work in a union environment and there are DEFINTELY folks making less than they are worth because they can't be paid more due to union rules, though far fewer than the undeserving folks that keep their jobs because the union makes it hard to discipline or fire them.

At a large scale though, I think most folks just want security and stability. Most don't want to wake up and know they have to outrun the fastest lion every day or become a meal. Most don't even have the drive to wake up and know they just have to catch the slowest antelope in order to eat. They are more like plants. They just want the sun to rise on time, water to come when it is supposed to, and someone else to do the work of pollenating and harvesting the fruits of their labor. I get it, most folks "work to live" rather than "live to work".

But almost every legit union grievance has been coded into law now. Their relevance is low provided the laws are properly enforced. I prefer trade unions that gatekeep their membership and ensure a level of competency over labor unions that just protect the lazy and hold back the exceptional.

I get it. I know union people too. Every person and company wants smooth sailing. And every company that can afford to pay the bills will pay people good money to stick around. No hiring manager or HR person wants people quitting because they are pissed. Its a cost and hassle to rehire, retrain and get them up to speed. And it looks bad on them if their department has turnover issues.

So it goes against management trying to nickel and dime every worker to the last penny because at the end of the day execs wants smoothly performing companies.

Also, there's PR implications. When companies have low turnover rates, that is something promoted to recruiters which will help attract candidates.

If companies are stonewalling unions (assuming they got money and arent dead broke), it's due to some kind of unreasonable cost or demand.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

you can't come here saying that union workers get paid more than non-union ones and then turn around to say negotiating for more pay hasn't been successful, the evidence is right there in your own post

All I'm saying is if you got beefs, go negotiate. Youll get what youre worth. If you get great pay, thats great. If you get zero increase too bad. Money is out there. Just about every person in my department (even most of the SFAs) get paid 6-digits. Plus annual bonus. Even the jr analysts out of school probably start at $60k knowing nothing. None of us are unionized. Good money is out there if youre worth it. And if a company offers shitty comp, then too bad. Means youre replaceable. Brush up some skills and you'll get better offers.

Dont whine or complain or hide behind a union rep screwing up the rest of the company. Just have some initiative and be responsible.

 

[funkygunther]

All I'm saying is if you got beefs, go negotiate. Youll get what youre worth. If you get great pay, thats great. If you get zero increase too bad. Money is out there. Just about every person in my department (even most of the SFAs) get paid 6-digits. Plus annual bonus. Even the jr analysts out of school probably start at $60k knowing nothing. None of us are unionized. Good money is out there if youre worth it. And if a company offers shitty comp, then too bad. Means youre replaceable.

Dont whine or complain or hide behind a union rep screwing up the rest of the company. Just have some initiative and be responsible.

you're going in circles, the union members that get paid more negotiated for it and they get paid what they're worth

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I find the defence of large conglomerates fascinating. As if you wouldn't be up in arms against them if it affected your livelihood

The problem is not with movie stars being paid a lot, the problem is with movie companies refusing to pay the rest of the non famous actors a fair wage.

And guess what? If they are forced into doing that, then the movie stars will get less.

And whats a fair wage? Its obvious you dont agree with the currently agreed upon rate charts and think they should be paid. So what's the request that goes beyond this? Here's some links of rate charts.

Essential Guide to SAG-AFTRA Rates 2024 | Wrapbook

Hiring actors from SAG? We put together a simple guide to the SAG-AFTRA rates for 2024.

www.wrapbook.com

How Much Do WGA Writers Make?

The WGA scale of Minimums represent the LOWEST amount of money a WGA member can receive for writing a script.

www.studiobinder.com

 

[FunkMiller]

All I'm saying is if you got beefs, go negotiate. Youll get what youre worth. If you get great pay, thats great. If you get zero increase too bad. Money is out there. Just about every person in my department (even most of the SFAs) get paid 6-digits. Plus annual bonus. Even the jr analysts out of school probably start at $60k knowing nothing. None of us are unionized. Good money is out there if youre worth it. And if a company offers shitty comp, then too bad. Means youre replaceable. Brush up some skills and you'll get better offers.

Dont whine or complain or hide behind a union rep screwing up the rest of the company. Just have some initiative and be responsible.

I think the big problem with your argument is that you keep bringing back to your individual job, and your individual circumstances. I don't actually think you have enough experience across an industry sector to have an informed opinion on collective bargaining, unionisation, or negotiation.

Likewise, I don't need a union to bargain or negotiate for me, as I'm a freelancer in a sector that doesn't usually require collective bargaining (though I am a member of a union for some practical purposes and perks), but I recognise that in other sectors the individual cannot simply 'go negotiate' for a better deal a lot of the time. In some industries collective bargaining is an essential thing. Such as they entertainment industry, where a very few companies hold all of the purse strings, and individuals have little to no power to negotiate on their own. The same applies to government funded industries of course.

 

[FunkMiller]

And whats a fair wage? Its obvious you dont agree with the currently agreed upon rate charts and think they should be paid. So what's the request that goes beyond this? Here's some links of rate charts.

Essential Guide to SAG-AFTRA Rates 2024 | Wrapbook

Hiring actors from SAG? We put together a simple guide to the SAG-AFTRA rates for 2024.

www.wrapbook.com

How Much Do WGA Writers Make?

The WGA scale of Minimums represent the LOWEST amount of money a WGA member can receive for writing a script.

www.studiobinder.com

The issues they are having are with residual payments and AI. When I say a 'fair wage' I mean the compensation they receive as residual payments. The AI issue is obviously separate to that.

It doesn't matter what I think, I'm not an actor nor a screen writer. But they clearly don't think what the companies are proposing in a new deal is fair - basically because residual payments are either miniscule or don't exist at all with streaming.

 

[jufonuk]

Jesus Christ.

The Black Mirror plot about AI that worries actors

As actors strike in Hollywood, unions say they want more protection from artificial intelligence.

www.bbc.com

 

[FunkMiller]

The Black Mirror plot about AI that worries actors

As actors strike in Hollywood, unions say they want more protection from artificial intelligence.

www.bbc.com

Brooker doing his Nostradamus act with that one

 

[Toons]

All problems largely of the public's own making.

How is that possible when the public can't make laws, can't set prices and can't determine wages lmfao?

Nobody in the states is forced to work for anyone or purchase anything by non-criminal enterprise. The people with the money offer wages and propose prices, and people either agree or decline. Wages and prices get adjusted as a result. It's not a pure free market economy by any means, but it's not the central planning you're unwittingly describing.

Yeah it is. Its by definition that, because again, the actual workforce has no actual say on any of the things they should have a say over. At some point it is no longer agree or decline, at some point it is agree, or watch you and your family slowly starve to death.

The same goes for the consumers.

Which would be relevant if consumers had a say in anything.

Actually, no. The healthcare industry is one that requires large amounts of high-level education, training and ultimately labor that literally saves lives. People only think the prices are inflated because they don't put as much financial value into health as they should through perspective.

No, the Healthcare industry does require a lot of work, but many forms of essential medicine, such as for diabetic purposes, is artificially inflated at a price to generate a profit. Were talking about medicine products that certain folks require to continue ***living*** and they are made to generate profit by their price being inflated.

That is not excusable.

Most overpricing that is there has to do with onerous regulation and other assorted government interference (much of it cheered on by hypnotized public) that allows for it. Not by accident, either.

Thats false. The Healthcare industry is treated in this country like a commodity, not a necessity. Its priced like a luxury, not something that any decent functioning society has as a core foundation. The common people have no say over that once again.

 

[ProtoByte]

Exactly how many people should be in an industry or union?

Let's go with industry, since I don't think this pair of unions should exist, or would had it not been for literal Soviet interference.

If you can't earn a meaningful wage an industry, it could mean the industry is not sufficient to you, but more often, certainly now in the west, it indicates that you are substandard. 26,000 a year is pitiful. If that's all you can muster, go do something else. You're not doing anyone favors by writing irrelevant fluff that no one cares about.

And yet, Bob Iger makes 27 million a year.

25 million of which is stock.
For all the issues that Disney's having post lockdowns, Iger is returning as CEO after an insanely profitable and prolific run that lasted about 10-15 years. He's one of the main reasons Disney is as dominant and high as they are/were to drop so precipitously. CEO compensation sounds like too much to everyone who doesn't get what it actually means.

Go ahead, liquidate that 27 million and spread it around the, oh, 200+ thousand employees, and see what kind of difference it makes in their wallets.

And you're blaming the creative talent for the screw ups of the executives. Don't you think they should lose out on money, not the ones who aren't responsible for the state of things at all?

But the creatives are responsible for the state of things. They demanded funding to make projects that were too bloated and expensive to sustain for 10 years, and were happy to take money that barely even existed to do it. To put the cherry on top, most of it was trash.

Consumers are partially to blame too. They demand things that they often aren't willing to pay for in full. Many thought that Netflix was going to stay at 10 dollars forever, whilst also hosting every relevant piece of content from Hollywood. Executives are to blame for getting caught up in the hype of it all, and not putting their feet down and putting the breaks on it, regardless of what their employees or customers thought.

There are already executives that have been cut out due to their failure. Walter Hamada, Jason Killar, Bob Chapek and Victoria Alonso, for example. There will be more. Doesn't mean writers or actors or going to get what they think they're entitled to.

 

[FunkMiller]

Let's go with industry, since I don't think this pair of unions should exist, or would had it not been for literal Soviet interference.

If you can't earn a meaningful wage an industry, it could mean the industry is not sufficient to you, but more often, certainly now in the west, it indicates that you are substandard. 26,000 a year is pitiful. If that's all you can muster, go do something else. You're not doing anyone favors by writing irrelevant fluff that no one cares about.

They're only getting paid 26,000 because that's what the AMPTP have stipulated. That's why they're striking!

25 million of which is stock.
For all the issues that Disney's having post lockdowns, Iger is returning as CEO after an insanely profitable and prolific run that lasted about 10-15 years. He's one of the main reasons Disney is as dominant and high as they are/were to drop so precipitously. CEO compensation sounds like too much to everyone who doesn't get what it actually means.

Iger is literally one of the people responsible for the move to streaming, which has cost the industry billions He's also responsible for all of that woke shit I have no doubt you complain about just as loudly as anybody else in other threads.

 

[jason10mm]

Brooker doing his Nostradamus act with that one

Thats nothing. Ronald Dahl predicted AI written books AND how that will be used to usurp and replace human writers, back in like 1954!

And, spoilers, the last human author to hold out did starve in the end

https://gwern.net/doc/fiction/science-fiction/1953-dahl-thegreatautomaticgrammatizator.pdf

 

[FunkMiller]

Thats nothing. Ronald Dahl predicted AI written books AND how that will be used to usurp and replace human writers, back in like 1954!

And, spoilers, the last human author to hold out did starve in the end

https://gwern.net/doc/fiction/science-fiction/1953-dahl-thegreatautomaticgrammatizator.pdf

Hah. That's great

 

[Lukaku's First Touch]

I find the defence of large conglomerates fascinating. As if you wouldn't be up in arms against them if it affected your livelihood

The problem is not with movie stars being paid a lot, the problem is with movie companies refusing to pay the rest of the non famous actors a fair wage.

And guess what? If they are forced into doing that, then the movie stars will get less.

Where is this defence you're imagining?

 

[Nobody_Important]

Yes, it's almost as if there should be some sort of organisation for employees that has the power to negotiate a pay package with employers who would otherwise give unfair terms on an individual basis.

Just give it up man. The argument clearly isn't happening in good faith at this point. It's not worth the time being wasted.

 

[Corpsepyre]

This is NeoGAF, right? Have you considered...playing video games?

I don't play video games. I just talk shit about them.

 

[Rentahamster]

 

[YCoCg]

If youre that good, go talk to the boss or HR.

Dude you keep saying this, and in an ideal world yeah this would work for ALL industries, but it doesn't, sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you work, if a company can get away with paying you less and not tell you about it, etc, they will, no employer cares about you, they're not your friends, sometimes unions are needed, sometimes strikes are needed. Your view comes across like some old 1950s US propaganda advert "Be a hard working man and you'll rise to the top in no time! Don't join a Union, they're all crooks!".

 

[jason10mm]

Dude you keep saying this, and in an ideal world yeah this would work for ALL industries, but it doesn't, sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you work, if a company can get away with paying you less and not tell you about it, etc, they will, no employer cares about you, they're not your friends, sometimes unions are needed, sometimes strikes are needed. Your view comes across like some old 1950s US propaganda advert "Be a hard working man and you'll rise to the top in no time! Don't join a Union, they're all crooks!".

How the hell can a company "not tell you about" your pay?? It's not like there is some master list of pay for every position that they keep secret.

If you toil away, year after year, for the same pay why is it the companies fault you didn't get a raise? There has to be SOME responsibility on the meek employee to take ownership. This is one reason why men make more on average than women, they statistically challenge their pay more, and thus get paid a bit more.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

How the hell can a company "not tell you about" your pay?? It's not like there is some master list of pay for every position that they keep secret.

If you toil away, year after year, for the same pay why is it the companies fault you didn't get a raise? There has to be SOME responsibility on the meek employee to take ownership. This is one reason why men make more on average than women, they statistically challenge their pay more, and thus get paid a bit more.

It's like some people expect employers to be grown adult babysitters giving them everything in the world and more. It's really just an extension of what I say in some threads regarding people bringing their home life problems to work and some reason expect the company (lets say they make furniture for sake of argument) to solve their personal issues for them. If you got money issues and want more pay, that's fine. Chat with the boss and show you did a great job. What company wants good workers to leave for a measly extra couple thousand bucks per year. None. As long as they can afford it, they'll keep you. But if they'd rather let you quit and go through the hassle of rehiring someone else well then you arent worth an extra couple grand.

One thing you never see is responsibility. Hey, if you want more then prove you deserve more. Where's the increased tasks and performance? Never see it in demands. They treat companies like a one-way street of "gimme more while I do the same".

The easiest way to make more money is improve your skills, get promoted, or get a high rating on a job evaluation where you blow by everyone else at +10% while the rest of the pack get +2%. If someone cant show the boss they are good, it means you arent good to begin with. If someone truly thinks they did a great job it cant be hard to give the examples of solid work to prove it. Now if the worker cant and says "well, I cant really show you anything good I've done", then too bad. Youre an invisible employee which the company can probably live without even noticing youre gone.

Even at my shitty assembly line job during the summer one year, if I really wanted to stay and get a pay boost beyond my shitty min wage. All I have to do is show that I always have a clean station and work the line to the end. I have proof. I just show them the log counter book or the counter on the machine that I make more product per shift than the union vets making 3-4x the hourly wage. Not hard. I could already tell they wanted me back because when I told Don (the HR guy who hired me) I'm quitting and going back to class in Sept, he even said if I need a PT job during school just call him. And he'd give me a reference if I wanted. I didn't take him up on either. But already, I got him on my side.

It's a lot easier to have the company working with you on jobs when you in return do a good job.

 

[YCoCg]

If you toil away, year after year, for the same pay why is it the companies fault you didn't get a raise? There has to be SOME responsibility on the meek employee to take ownership.

So what you're saying is, the companies are happy to not pay you more unless you speak up about it, either directly or via a union or even threatening strike action.

 

[Ownage]

 

[Nobody_Important]

How the hell can a company "not tell you about" your pay?? It's not like there is some master list of pay for every position that they keep secret.

If you toil away, year after year, for the same pay why is it the companies fault you didn't get a raise? There has to be SOME responsibility on the meek employee to take ownership. This is one reason why men make more on average than women, they statistically challenge their pay more, and thus get paid a bit more.

So if a company is intentionally underpaying it's workers it's not the fault of the company it's the fault of the workers?

Am I understanding that right?

 

[YCoCg]

Hey, if you want more then prove you deserve more. Where's the increased tasks and performance? Never see it in demands. They treat companies like a one-way street of "gimme more while I do the same".

In this exact instance, the writers and actors are doing their job, it's just that the contracts are vastly different from TV and Streaming Services, not to mention that companies can simply "erase" shows and movies from streaming services to get around paying residuals. Take a look at Marvel and Star Wars and how oversaturated they've became, they work is being put in (despite if you like it or not) but the content they're making is being used to promote these services where they get LESS money, and then there's the case of AI where top execs want to Black Mirror the industry and only pay people for ONE days work whilst they keep their model and likeness for eternity. Better contracts need to be hashed out, if the people at the top don't want to do this, then striking is the only choice.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So if a company is intentionally underpaying it's workers it's not the fault of the company it's the fault of the workers?

Am I understanding that right?

Whats the definition of underpaying?

Lets say someone makes $50,000. What factors do you consider to label him as underpaid? And at what new $$$ amount should he get as automatically given to him on a silver platter no questions asked?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Real tough guy coming from a multimillionaire celeb.

Any when you get threats like that, that's another reason why management hesitates to talk.

Put it this way. If any of you needed to deal with someone and they come at you angry hinting at burning your house down and killing you, most people (including me) would walk and wouldnt talk to them at all.

Hey at least an exec like Bob makes $27M in total comp (not all salary) running a giant company. Lets see Ron Perlman rag on Tom Cruise who probably made $50M making one movie. Top Gun Maverick.

On a side note: anyone know how the Twitter algorithm works? 99% of tweets I cant see as it says Sign Up (I dont have a twitter account). But this Ron Perlman tweet I view and read the comments.

Edit. Now I can only view the video, and the Replies disappeared.

 

[jason10mm]

So if a company is intentionally underpaying it's workers it's not the fault of the company it's the fault of the workers?

Am I understanding that right?

What does even mean?

Underpaying as in contracting at a specific wage, then just not paying that amount? Or racking up bogus charges to the employee? Outside of some government set pay scales, there is no magic "pay rate" other than contracts at group or individual levels.

And yes, if an employee works for a wage, their job never changes, no automatic pay raises or reviews are built into their contract, and they NEVER ask for a raise or vote with their feet if they don't get one, then yes, this is primarily an EMPLOYEE problem. Why are they staying there?

 

[jason10mm]

Real tough guy coming from a multimillionaire celeb.

Any when you get threats like that, that's another reason why management hesitates to talk.

He's just reading dialogue from Sons of Anarchy, no one takes him seriously.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

What does even mean?

Underpaying as in contracting at a specific wage, then just not paying that amount? Or racking up bogus charges to the employee? Outside of some government set pay scales, there is no magic "pay rate" other than contracts at group or individual levels.

And yes, if an employee works for a wage, their job never changes, no automatic pay raises or reviews are built into their contract, and they NEVER ask for a raise or vote with their feet if they don't get one, then yes, this is primarily an EMPLOYEE problem. Why are they staying there?

I'll take a guess. It goes like this.

Guy makes $50,000.

Guy is underpaid because the company is big and the VPs make millions. Therefore he should make uh..... $250,000 sounds good.

I'd like to see what factors or formula Nobody Important comes up with to determine underpayment when the company and worker agreed to a set hourly wage or salary.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Ron doesn't give a fuck and is bringing the energy needed for this.


I like it.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Getting the SAG in feels like it's got risks as there are some members making more then the CEO they are raging against. And as a percentage of revenue, Iger is getting 27 million to run an 80+ billion dollar company while Robert Downey got multiple times that for movies costing 250 to 500 million.

 

[Nobody_Important]

What does even mean?

Underpaying as in contracting at a specific wage, then just not paying that amount? Or racking up bogus charges to the employee? Outside of some government set pay scales, there is no magic "pay rate" other than contracts at group or individual levels.

And yes, if an employee works for a wage, their job never changes, no automatic pay raises or reviews are built into their contract, and they NEVER ask for a raise or vote with their feet if they don't get one, then yes, this is primarily an EMPLOYEE problem. Why are they staying there?

You know exactly what I mean. Stop playing dumb in order to defend faceless companies and industries. Its so ridiculous to watch in real time. If a company decides that no matter what the regular pay rate for a job is they are going to not only go low, but absolutely dig past it because they know there are people desperate enough or passionate enough to take it that is not on the fucking workers that are so desperate that they take it. That is on the company. If a place is offering $15 an hour for a job that normally pays $30 and there are people that take it because they need the money that is not a slight on the worker. No raises. No hope for advancement. People are just desperate enough to keep food on the table that they take the job because they don't want to be fucking homeless. That is the fault of the company. They are willingly preying on the desperation and need of the masses in order to throw meat into their grinder. To try and lay that on the feet of the poor fucker being exploited and just saying "Hey ya lazy fucker just go get another job!" is showing a level of ignorance that I honestly can't process. It is actually fucking stupid. Unions exist to prevent that kind of predation on the unfortunate and the exploited.


What you guys are doing when you say shit like "if you don't like it then go get another job!" reminds of the dumb ass "job tree" scene from Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

You and StreetsofBeige act like people are just either lazy as fuck or just so completely lacking in self confidence that they are unable to stand up for themselves. In reality motherfuckers are just trying to survive the month and make sure their bills are paid. They don't have the luxury of telling their employers to fuck off in order to get better wages. Not in America. Not where you can get shit kicked to the curb at a moments notice in most jobs with very little to no aid at all compared to other nations. You all trying to push this narrative that companies are being completely reasonable and its actually the exploited workers that are being selfish is just fucking insane to me.


You guys are in some kind of idealistic twilight zone that I genuinely wish existed because maybe then workers would have a decent existence in America.