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[skneogaf]

 

[FunkMiller]

And again, here’s the big problem with this whole thing.

So many of you just want to see fuckheads like this punished for making shitty woke content that you hate, that you’ll cheer on the executives and the corporations instead.

…despite the fact the executives and corporations are the ones who hired the woke fuckheads, and are pushing their agenda.

You want the minority of colour hair screamers out of the industry, who are ruining entertainment? Then you should support the people who are against the corporations that hire them.

This strike could bring down the executive heads of Disney and Amazon - and better residual rates for writers means it’s harder for writers to just slide into jobs, because of the amount of money that has to be paid out. It’ll become a meritocracy again. A transparent one, because if the writers win, studios will have to admit if something is crashing. Which means less woke crap.

 

[EviLore]

And again, here’s the big problem with this whole thing.

So many of you just want to see fuckheads like this punished for making shitty woke content that you hate, that you’ll cheer on the executives and the corporations instead.

…despite the fact the executives and corporations are the ones who hired the woke fuckheads, and are pushing their agenda.

You want the minority of colour hair screamers out of the industry, who are ruining entertainment? Then you should support the people who are against the corporations that hire them.

This strike could bring down the executive heads of Disney and Amazon - and better residual rates for writers means it’s harder for writers to just slide into jobs, because of the amount of money that has to be paid out. It’ll become a meritocracy again. A transparent one.

If you need to pay your writers properly maybe you'll start paying attention to who you're hiring to write your productions...

 

[FunkMiller]

If you need to pay your writers properly maybe you'll start paying attention to who you're hiring to write your productions...

Exactly. No one's going to be paying writers who produce shows like Velma, Willow and She Hulk, if we can all see how badly those shows have done on the streaming services. This is exactly what will happen if the studios are forced to pay proper residuals on streaming content.

If people want less woke crap, they should be 100% behind the WGA and SAG AFTRA, because they want more transparency and accountability from the companies.

So frustrating that so many people don't understand what's going on here.

 

[Rentahamster]

So frustrating that so many people don't understand what's going on here.

Seriously. I'm reminded of that quote from LBJ:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1988/11/13/what-a-real-president-was-like/d483c1be-d0da-43b7-bde6-04e10106ff6c/

I was a young man on his staff in 1960 when he gave me a vivid account of that southern schizophrenia he understood and feared. We were in Tennessee. During the motorcade, he spotted some ugly racial epithets scrawled on signs. Late that night in the hotel, when the local dignitaries had finished the last bottles of bourbon and branch water and departed, he started talking about those signs. "I'll tell you what's at the bottom of it," he said. "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

Since racism has fallen out of a fashion, the new grift is the uber-woke segment of media and its anti-woke counter culture reactionary movement designed to extract all your attention and your money and distract you from the fact that the same mega-corporations feeding you this bullshit are the same ones that lobby the government to make sure the pay you earn as a worker is not nearly the same as the amount of value you create for the company. If someone's primary reaction is to not side with other low level workers just because they're on the opposite side of bullshit culture war nonsense, then the propaganda distraction industrial complex has surely been successful.

 

[FunkMiller]

If someone's primary reaction is to not side with other low level workers just because they're on the opposite side of bullshit culture war nonsense, then the propaganda distraction industrial complex has surely been successful.

100% correct. The capacity of people to be led by the nose, and the cynicism of the companies that do it, never fails to amaze/depress me.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You know exactly what I mean. Stop playing dumb in order to defend faceless companies and industries. Its so ridiculous to watch in real time. If a company decides that no matter what the regular pay rate for a job is they are going to not only go low, but absolutely dig past it because they know there are people desperate enough or passionate enough to take it that is not on the fucking workers that are so desperate that they take it. That is on the company. If a place is offering $15 an hour for a job that normally pays $30 and there are people that take it because they need the money that is not a slight on the worker. No raises. No hope for advancement. People are just desperate enough to keep food on the table that they take the job because they don't want to be fucking homeless. That is the fault of the company. They are willingly preying on the desperation and need of the masses in order to throw meat into their grinder. To try and lay that on the feet of the poor fucker being exploited and just saying "Hey ya lazy fucker just go get another job!" is showing a level of ignorance that I honestly can't process. It is actually fucking stupid. Unions exist to prevent that kind of predation on the unfortunate and the exploited.


What you guys are doing when you say shit like "if you don't like it then go get another job!" reminds of the dumb ass "job tree" scene from Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

You and StreetsofBeige act like people are just either lazy as fuck or just so completely lacking in self confidence that they are unable to stand up for themselves. In reality motherfuckers are just trying to survive the month and make sure their bills are paid. They don't have the luxury of telling their employers to fuck off in order to get better wages. Not in America. Not where you can get shit kicked to the curb at a moments notice in most jobs with very little to no aid at all compared to other nations. You all trying to push this narrative that companies are being completely reasonable and its actually the exploited workers that are being selfish is just fucking insane to me.


You guys are in some kind of idealistic twilight zone that I genuinely wish existed because maybe then workers would have a decent existence in America.

End of the day, that's life. If someone doesn't like the money they are paid get a different job or talk to the boss.

These posts I've seen on the net about bad residuals payments etc.... whose fault is that? The employees. They are the ones who agreed to some kind of shitty contract, then they got to live with it within the confines of the union deal. It's like a pro athlete agreeing to a deal, has an allstar season and thn holds out for a revised contract. Dont complain you got a low salary for a great season. Thats the deal. If you want more, then next time it's contract time ask for big money and if you're worth it the owners will dole out the cash.

If you dont like it, then they got to do some collective whole union deal. A non-union worker could go right to the boss and negotiate a better pay bump for themselves at any time even if nobody else on the team gets one. That's the pros and cons of union deals and no union deal.

As I've said, f they want more money then negotiate. Right now it's a brick wall strike. Thats fine, do it that way. If the bosses think the collective whole deal is worth bumping up pay, residuals, AI limits etc.... they'll do it. At the end of the day, execs pay are often based on company performance and stock prices factors. If the company sinks they all get screwed, so its not even in their best interest to purposely act like Scrooge forever killing the production.

That's always a limitation of union deals vs individuals negotiating on their own. A union deal is a giant collective cost increase. A couple of people at the office asking for pay bump wont move the needle.

Every big company hinges a big cost factor (SG&A) pegged to a % of sales. Let's say it's 15%. For sake of profits, metrics and wall st, it's not good when it jumps to 20% for no good reason. Lets face it, if the unions got a nice pay bump that SG&A is immediately going up and there will no improvement to sales any time soon. There is no guarantee. It can also even get worse. When a company is faced with blanket increases, the company will try to negotiate a reasonable midway point kind of increase. Every union worker will claim they are the best employee ever so they should get a big increase, but we all know some are shit. So no company isnt going to pay a blanket big increase like the two office people who got one because management doesn't want to pay high increases for faceless people behind a union rep who do a bad job.

You dont realize that union wages and set pay tiers can be good or bad. The laggards are loving it because they get good pay and job security. The ones who do a great job are actually hurting their pay because they are being gimped to a pay chart. That's why I bring up non-union staff like who I work with where even college grads get a decent starting pay. That's because it's easier to fire people to get rid of dead weight keeping costs down while paying people remaining good money to stick around.

 

[Toons]

And again, here’s the big problem with this whole thing.

So many of you just want to see fuckheads like this punished for making shitty woke content that you hate, that you’ll cheer on the executives and the corporations instead.

…despite the fact the executives and corporations are the ones who hired the woke fuckheads, and are pushing their agenda.

You want the minority of colour hair screamers out of the industry, who are ruining entertainment? Then you should support the people who are against the corporations that hire them.

This strike could bring down the executive heads of Disney and Amazon - and better residual rates for writers means it’s harder for writers to just slide into jobs, because of the amount of money that has to be paid out. It’ll become a meritocracy again. A transparent one, because if the writers win, studios will have to admit if something is crashing. Which means less woke crap.

Hollywood was never a meritocracy lol.

It's been plagued with nepotism, corruption, money laundering, abuse of power from day one.

That being said, I agree with you that "i don't like this show, therefore the corporation that put it out should be allowed to not pay the folks they hired to make it" is laughable and backwards.

Theres never been a time when everything that got released was good. But people who work on these projects gor hired to do a job and they should be paid for it.

Most of the stuff thats popular to dislike has some of the same people behind it as rhe shows everyone likes as well.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Hollywood was never a meritocracy lol.

It's been plagued with nepotism, corruption, money laundering, abuse of power from day one.

That being said, I agree with you that "i don't like this show, therefore the corporation that put it out should be allowed to not pay the folks they hired to make it" is laughable and backwards.

Theres never been a time when everything that got released was good. But people who work on these projects gor hired to do a job and they should be paid for it.

Most of the stuff thats popular to dislike has some of the same people behind it as rhe shows everyone likes as well.

You make it sound like if a team made a bad show they werent paid at all. That's not true unless studios are purposely ripping up their pay stubs or they are purposely not paying the negotiated rate. If the company is doing either of these things then 100% they are at fault. They arent paying to the agreed upon deal.

But if it is involving residual/streaming payments that are a new thing, then fine. Negotiate with the bosses. They might say yes, they might say no. Not hard.

Dont forget, it's not just the big wig execs who get paid well. All the celebs make giant money too even if the tv show or movie bombs.

 

[DeafTourette]

Getting the SAG in feels like it's got risks as there are some members making more then the CEO they are raging against. And as a percentage of revenue, Iger is getting 27 million to run an 80+ billion dollar company while Robert Downey got multiple times that for movies costing 250 to 500 million.

RDJ and the VERY few wealthy others are a miniscule amount compared to the rest of the over 160,000 actors in SAG-AFTRA. Some members doesn't hold a candle to 90% of the others who don't even make $1mil, let alone close to it.

 

[DeafTourette]

You make it sound like if a team made a bad show they werent paid at all. That's not true unless studios are purposely ripping up their pay stubs or they are purposely not paying the negotiated rate. If the company is doing either of these things then 100% they are at fault. They arent paying to the agreed upon deal.

But if it is involving residual/streaming payments that are a new thing, then fine. Negotiate with the bosses. They might say yes, they might say no. Not hard.

Dont forget, it's not just the big wig execs who get paid well. All the celebs make giant money too even if the tv show or movie bombs.

The last part... No. All of them don't make giant money.

 

[Toons]

You make it sound like if a team made a bad show they werent paid at all. That's not true unless studios are purposely ripping up their pay stubs or they are purposely not paying the negotiated rate. If the company is doing either of these things then 100% they are at fault. They arent paying to the agreed upon deal.

You make it sound like deliberate underpaying and payment loopholes to avoid paying people aren't a thing. They are, and we've SEEN THEM be used in recent years. Look at the wave of cancelled productions from Zaslav in the last year. Then look at the ridiculous amount of money he takes home each year.

The writings on the wall.

But if it is involving residual/streaming payments that are a new thing, then fine. Negotiate with the bosses. They might say yes, they might say no. Not hard.

Have you not been paying attention? The reason they have this strike is because the "bosses" wanted to pay folks to own their face and voice for time indefinite while paying them pennies lmfao. Does that sound justifiable to you?

Dont forget, it's not just the big wig execs who get paid well. All the celebs make giant money too even if the tv show or movie bombs.

Were not just talking about celebs. Not even the big celebs. They'll be ok. Mot everyone working on Hollywood productions is a big wig my guy.

Many are making less than an average blue collar worker, especially if they get screwed on royalties.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You make it sound like deliberate underpaying and payment loopholes to avoid paying people aren't a thing. They are, and we've SEEN THEM be used in recent years. Look at the wave of cancelled productions from Zaslav in the last year. Then look at the ridiculous amount of money he takes home each year.

The writings on the wall.


Have you not been paying attention? The reason they have this strike is because the "bosses" wanted to pay folks to own their face and voice for time indefinite while paying them pennies lmfao. Does that sound justifiable to you?



Were not just talking about celebs. Not even the big celebs. They'll be ok. Mot everyone working on Hollywood productions is a big wig my guy.

Many are making less than an average blue collar worker, especially if they get screwed on royalties.

If any company is illegally skimping on money, then for sure I support the employee. I dont want my pay cheque skimmed either.

As for the AI face scanning. What's with the big uproar? If it's a big issue then negotiate back dont do it. Whats so hard? Hey, think of it like am extreme management offer, NO DIFFERENT than when unions ask for the moon. So lets not pretend unions only ask for marginal and reasonable offers.

The key difference is that management in union negotiations play it cool, dont publicly respond a lot, and any statements they make are few, nicely written. The union reps, leaders or members can act crazy kicking and screaming or being dumbasses like Ron Perlman making physical threats.

So as Ive said before, negotiate at the table like adults and you'll get what you want. If I my company wanted to face scan all of us for whatever reason, most people would say forget it. I would to. The difference is I'd talk to the boss or people would email HR their beef with it. Not go yelling, picketing and acting like children on social media. And if the company held firm everyone has to have their face scanned for dubious reasons taking advantage of me for some reason, I'd leave.

Now you know why management in some companies treat their employees like kids.

 

[EviLore]

99.99% of the actors working in Hollywood don’t have any individual leverage. If they don’t agree to terms they’ll be replaced by someone who will.

There are endless swarms of “talent” standing around in LA for 10 or 15 years waiting tables and waiting for their big break.

They get leverage by banding together and striking.

 

[Toons]

If any company is illegally skimping on money, then for sure I support the employee. I dont want my pay cheque skimmed either.

As for the AI face scanning. What's with the big uproar? If it's a big issue then negotiate back dont do it. Whats so hard? Hey, think of it like am extreme management offer, NO DIFFERENT than when unions ask for the moon. So lets not pretend unions only ask for marginal and reasonable offers.

So you gave actual evidence to support these claims or are you just blindly defending the corporations.

"Bbbut they do it too... sometimes..." is not an actual argument for anything. Especially when these folks hold none of the cards because the money differential is so ridiculously and blindly obvious.

The key difference is that management in union negotiations play it cool, dont publicly respond a lot, and any statements they make are few, nicely written. The union reps, leaders or members can act crazy kicking and screaming or being dumbasses like Ron Perlman making physical threats.

And the threat of homelessness and starvation aren't physical threats?

Why are you so keen on deflecting ANY criticism of hoe these big wigs do things lol

So as Ive said before, negotiate at the table like adults and you'll get what you want. If I my company wanted to face scan all of us for whatever reason, most people would say forget it. I would to. The difference is I'd talk to the boss or people would email HR their beef with it. Not go yelling, picketing and acting like children on social media.

Now you know why management in some companies treat their employees like kids.

Ah, so its ok to express dictate, just do it in the way YOU perisbally approve of. Got it. If we talk nicely and calmly the corporations will be nice to us too!

 

[diffusionx]

And again, here’s the big problem with this whole thing.

So many of you just want to see fuckheads like this punished for making shitty woke content that you hate, that you’ll cheer on the executives and the corporations instead.

…despite the fact the executives and corporations are the ones who hired the woke fuckheads, and are pushing their agenda.

You want the minority of colour hair screamers out of the industry, who are ruining entertainment? Then you should support the people who are against the corporations that hire them.

This strike could bring down the executive heads of Disney and Amazon - and better residual rates for writers means it’s harder for writers to just slide into jobs, because of the amount of money that has to be paid out. It’ll become a meritocracy again. A transparent one, because if the writers win, studios will have to admit if something is crashing. Which means less woke crap.

How much money did She-Hulk bring in? Realistically how many people are watching She-Hulk today? That show sucked ass and everyone hated it. We aren't talking about Seinfeld here.

The whole concept of residuals is based on getting paid for content you helped make as it continues to make money over time. So if the company is making tons of money on your show for decades, you should get some of that. I don't know if anyone really disagrees with that, but we aren't talking about shows that are making tons of money. We're talking about She-Hulk, man. The show that was at least partly responsible for Iger shifting strategies to spend less on capeshit. So I guess we arrived at the desired endpoint anyway.

Hollywood was never a meritocracy lol.

It's been plagued with nepotism, corruption, money laundering, abuse of power from day one.

That being said, I agree with you that "i don't like this show, therefore the corporation that put it out should be allowed to not pay the folks they hired to make it" is laughable and backwards.

Theres never been a time when everything that got released was good. But people who work on these projects gor hired to do a job and they should be paid for it.

Most of the stuff thats popular to dislike has some of the same people behind it as rhe shows everyone likes as well.

I don't think anyone is saying the writers shouldn't get paid though. They are getting paid according to the contract they hammered out at the last negotiations. If the writers don't like that, they are free to strike, as they are doing, but that's kind of the whole point of unions. What the writers agree to, for themselves, in a negotiation with the companies, is their prerogative.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So you gave actual evidence to support these claims or are you just blindly defending the corporations.

"Bbbut they do it too... sometimes..." is not an actual argument for anything. Especially when these folks hold none of the cards because the money differential is so ridiculously and blindly obvious.



And the threat of homelessness and starvation aren't physical threats?

Why are you so keen on deflecting ANY criticism of hoe these big wigs do things lol



Ah, so its ok to express dictate, just do it in the way YOU perisbally approve of. Got it. If we talk nicely and calmly the corporations will be nice to us too!

End of the day, the companies make offers and it's up to people to negotiate a package everyone can live with. Execs dont want to company to go down the toilet either, so they'll pay if it's reasonable.

The biggest issue with the media industry isnt the corporation heads. As Evilore said above and someone else said pages back, it's the people themselves.... way too many of them. Its like endless fry cooks willing to work for $12/hr. All companies do is try to fill roles and keep the company humming hiring people they see as good value for the money. And that person can be highly paid good value or lowly paid good value.

Most other industries arent so "swarmed" as evilore says with endless lines of media wannabes acting or writing. But the union is artificially trying to push up wages and job security because they know if it's not for that you'll get tons of good people working for less.

Hey, if a union's goal is to uphold wages with strike threats in so-called free economies where minimum wage in the US is rock bottom that's fine. Go negotiate as I said.

You cant blame companies because as long as they are following federal wage rules (which are set low), they just make union counter offers to people and hope they accept. Its no different than Google offering a coder out of school $100,000. Sounds nuts on paper, but hey the value is there to right away jump to 6-digits. Maybe the guy will ask for $120,000. Maybe they settle at $110,000. Who knows. But for media, the contract which everyone is held to is rigid, isnt a back and forth game like a Google guy hashing out a few extra bucks. Now if media people were as valuable as a coder, they'd all be guaranteed $100,000 too.

I get it. Union people want management to offer their best deal in the first 30 seconds or accept all of what they union demands. Not going to happen ever when it comes to giant blanket contracts that can last for years.

 

[Blade2.0]

Real tough guy coming from a multimillionaire celeb.

Any when you get threats like that, that's another reason why management hesitates to talk.

Put it this way. If any of you needed to deal with someone and they come at you angry hinting at burning your house down and killing you, most people (including me) would walk and wouldnt talk to them at all.

Hey at least an exec like Bob makes $27M in total comp (not all salary) running a giant company. Lets see Ron Perlman rag on Tom Cruise who probably made $50M making one movie. Top Gun Maverick.

On a side note: anyone know how the Twitter algorithm works? 99% of tweets I cant see as it says Sign Up (I dont have a twitter account). But this Ron Perlman tweet I view and read the comments.

Edit. Now I can only view the video, and the Replies disappeared.

I guess the execs shouldn't have threatened them first.

 

[Toons]

How much money did She-Hulk bring in? Realistically how many people are watching She-Hulk today? That show sucked ass and everyone hated it. We aren't talking about Seinfeld here.

The whole concept of residuals is based on getting paid for content you helped make as it continues to make money over time. So if the company is making tons of money on your show for decades, you should get some of that. I don't know if anyone really disagrees with that, but we aren't talking about shows that are making tons of money. We're talking about She-Hulk, man. The show that was at least partly responsible for Iger shifting strategies to spend less on capeshit. So I guess we arrived at the desired endpoint anyway.

It didn't do terrible enough to get removed from the platform.

Personally, I thought it was just ok, and I know people who ebene enjoyed it, both fans of the older comics which are in a similar vein or not fans at all.

But all of that is anecdotal and besides the point.

The show generated royalties for its crew, but the royalties are garbage. And not just because its this show specifically, but because these royalty rates that these companies set up are garbage across the board. And the source of this strike is mostly using that as context to the onset of straight up appropriation of folks likenesses and continual f***ery these companies are trying to endgage in.

I don't think anyone is saying the writers shouldn't get paid though. They are getting paid according to the contract they hammered out at the last negotiations. If the writers don't like that, they are free to strike, as they are doing, but that's kind of the whole point of unions. What the writers agree to, for themselves, in a negotiation with the companies, is their prerogative.

It should pretty much be the perogrative of anyone who is against corporate exploitation, because it never stops at JUST "those guys".

 

[Toons]

End of the day, the companies make offers and it's up to people to negotiate a package everyone can live with. Execs dont want to company to go down the toilet either, so they'll pay if it's reasonable.

The biggest issue with the media industry isnt the corporation heads. As Evilore said above and someone else said pages back, it's the people themselves.... way too many of them. Its like endless fry cooks willing to work for $12/hr. All companies do is try to fill roles and keep the company humming hiring people they see as good value for the money. And that person can be highly paid good value or lowly paid good value.

Most other industries arent so "swarmed" as evilore says with endless lines of media wannabes acting or writing. But the union is artificially trying to push up wages and job security because they know if it's not for that you'll get tons of good people working for less.

Hey, if a union's goal is to uphold wages with strike threats in so-called free economies where minimum wage in the US is rock bottom that's fine. Go negotiate as I said.

You cant blame companies because as long as they are following federal wage rules (which are set low), they just make union counter offers to people and hope they accept. Its no different than Google offering a coder out of school $100,000. Sounds nuts on paper, but hey the value is there to right away jump to 6-digits. Maybe the guy will ask for $120,000. Maybe they settle at $110,000. Who knows. But for media, the contract which everyone is held to is rigid, isnt a back and forth game like a Google guy hashing out a few extra bucks. Now if media people were as valuable as a coder, they'd all be guaranteed $100,000 too.

I get it. Union people want management to offer their best deal in the first 30 seconds or accept all of what they union demands. Not going to happen ever when it comes to giant blanket contracts that can last for years.

No, they won't do it if its reasonable. Thats this thing you keep on trying to pass off, that these corporations are open to reason. They arent. The numbers prove it. Stop trying to make this happen.

These guys aren't reasonable. They are trying to do as much screwing with workings as they possibly can before things start blowing back on them. And the evidence is right before you're eyes.

Good people will never work for less forever. If that was the case unions wouldn't exist. When studios cheap out, both the quality of workers and the quality of work decrease. You dont get equally skilled people you can pay less, you get less skilled people who are ok with less. This has been proven.

Your last paragraph is nonsense. As usual, under the almost religious assumption that as long as its not patently illegal its ok, and that these companies are just guys trying to scrape by a living as well and will help out folks within reason.

The numbers don't show it, the anecdotes don't show it, the evidence does not show it. These folks are exploitative, and its plain to see. Theres no other angle from which to view this.

 

[diffusionx]

It didn't do terrible enough to get removed from the platform.

Personally, I thought it was just ok, and I know people who ebene enjoyed it, both fans of the older comics which are in a similar vein or not fans at all.

But all of that is anecdotal and besides the point.

The show generated royalties for its crew, but the royalties are garbage. And not just because its this show specifically, but because these royalty rates that these companies set up are garbage across the board. And the source of this strike is mostly using that as context to the onset of straight up appropriation of folks likenesses and continual f***ery these companies are trying to endgage in.


It should pretty much be the perogrative of anyone who is against corporate exploitation, because it never stops at JUST "those guys".

If the royalties are garbage, then that is the fault of the union that hammered out the CBA with the companies.

How does one even define "exploitation" here? It's not 1880. They're not steelworkers. The writers are represented by a union. The union represents them in negotiations. They're getting paid according to the negotiations of the last CBA. That's pretty much how this thing is supposed to work. Now striking is a tool the union has, they're using it, that's fine. Words like "exploitation" and "unfair" are just not appropriate to this discussion, when the writers have this entity that is literally designed to negotiate a contract on their behalf and come to an agreement. If the agreement sucks, then it's not just the companies' fault.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

If the royalties are garbage, then that is the fault of the union that hammered out the CBA with the companies.

How does one even define "exploitation" here? It's not 1880. They're not steelworkers. The writers are represented by a union. The union represents them in negotiations. They're getting paid according to the negotiations of the last CBA. That's pretty much how this thing is supposed to work. Now striking is a tool the union has, they're using it, that's fine. Words like "exploitation" and "unfair" are just not appropriate to this discussion, when the writers have this entity that is literally designed to negotiate a contract on their behalf and come to an agreement. If the agreement sucks, then it's not just the companies' fault.

Yup.

And if they want big improvements, just hammer it out in the next contract.

It's like those old US Women's National Team threads where the players were complaining about shit pay, the Mens players getting more pay etc..... Well hey, its their fault for signing a bad deal years ago. Just because the team did well and picked up steam with viewers, you cant complain and ask for the organization to throw out and redo a contract because the going is good lately. If that's the case if the team did bad and revenue dropped, does that mean management can rip up the contract and cut everyone's pay 50%. Nope.

You act like an adult and live by the current deal. Dont whine about historics or bad rates. That was the deal.

If you signed a contract buying a $50,000 car for $48,000, dont whine and complain you missed out on a manufacturers rebate for $5000 you could had used as leverage to get it down to maybe $44,000 (let the dealership pocket the other $1,000). Thats the deal. All you got to do is dig into some research online and you'll find all cost rebates anyone can use against a sale rep. You cant rip it up after the deal is processed and you got the car saying I want $4,000 back. Next time do a better deal.

For future deals, then go negotiate how you want. A union rep is even representing a united front where all the workers can sit back and watch. If studios are making that much profit, they'll bend as the execs want the profits to keep coming as their pay will depend on corporate performance and high stock prices.

 

[diffusionx]

You know exactly what I mean. Stop playing dumb in order to defend faceless companies and industries. Its so ridiculous to watch in real time. If a company decides that no matter what the regular pay rate for a job is they are going to not only go low, but absolutely dig past it because they know there are people desperate enough or passionate enough to take it that is not on the fucking workers that are so desperate that they take it. That is on the company. If a place is offering $15 an hour for a job that normally pays $30 and there are people that take it because they need the money that is not a slight on the worker. No raises. No hope for advancement. People are just desperate enough to keep food on the table that they take the job because they don't want to be fucking homeless. That is the fault of the company. They are willingly preying on the desperation and need of the masses in order to throw meat into their grinder. To try and lay that on the feet of the poor fucker being exploited and just saying "Hey ya lazy fucker just go get another job!" is showing a level of ignorance that I honestly can't process. It is actually fucking stupid. Unions exist to prevent that kind of predation on the unfortunate and the exploited.


What you guys are doing when you say shit like "if you don't like it then go get another job!" reminds of the dumb ass "job tree" scene from Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

You and StreetsofBeige act like people are just either lazy as fuck or just so completely lacking in self confidence that they are unable to stand up for themselves. In reality motherfuckers are just trying to survive the month and make sure their bills are paid. They don't have the luxury of telling their employers to fuck off in order to get better wages. Not in America. Not where you can get shit kicked to the curb at a moments notice in most jobs with very little to no aid at all compared to other nations. You all trying to push this narrative that companies are being completely reasonable and its actually the exploited workers that are being selfish is just fucking insane to me.


You guys are in some kind of idealistic twilight zone that I genuinely wish existed because maybe then workers would have a decent existence in America.

if only these writers had some organization where they, like, grouped up and hired someone to negotiate contracts for them, utilizing their power as an entire bloc instead of one-by-one.

 

[FunkMiller]

Hollywood was never a meritocracy lol.

It's been plagued with nepotism, corruption, money laundering, abuse of power from day one.

What I mean is that when the companies can get away with paying peanuts - you get monkeys. If they are forced into paying a decent residual rate to writers, then the standards will go back up to at least the same level they were at prior to the streaming 'revolution'.

I doubt Disney are going to keep paying writers who are putting out absolute dreck like She Hulk and Willow, if they know they actually have to pay them a decent residual rate.

 

[Umbasaborne]

Im just sad because now there is a chance the community movie never gets made…we flew too close to the sun!

 

[diffusionx]

What I mean is that when the companies can get away with paying peanuts - you get monkeys. If they are forced into paying a decent residual rate to writers, then the standards will go back up to at least the same level they were at prior to the streaming 'revolution'.

I doubt Disney are going to keep paying writers who are putting out absolute dreck like She Hulk and Willow, if they know they actually have to pay them a decent residual rate.

Disney will pay for stuff that they think could make it money. The fact that She-Hulk and Willow were terrible and unpopular was obviously not the intention. The whole concept of residuals is, again, that you get some of the money the company makes going forward on your work. Residuals being paid out implies a show is successful for a long time, which is what everyone wants. The residual rate for Willow could be 10,000,000% of revenue for every writer forever, and their checks are going to be $0 because 10,000,000% of 0 is 0.

I DO think the writers have a leg to stand on in terms of transparency on streaming numbers. I assume that this is something the companies want to keep under wraps so they'll have to give something up. That's how it goes. I keep harping on this but the writers have a union. The union's job is to negotiate for them. It's not about "fair" which is a meaningless word, but about what they can figure out. This is the literal and expressed purpose of a union.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Great discussion in the thread so far. I’m pretty anti union, pro meritocracy. Why? Obviously influenced by what I’ve observed anecdotally in the environment - the cream usually rises to the top. If you’re that good at what you do, companies will be bidding over you. Talent is key to grow a company and have a competitive advantage over others. The best companies often recognize that.

I think the main designer of AMD and Intel chips was the same? He just hopped companies, went to highest bidder. Need to look him up again. Edit: Found him it’s Jim Keller. He basically setup AMD, Apple, Intel, and Tesla chips.


Also surprised that it has not mentioned - Pareto principle. It applies to almost everything in life. The top 20% workforce probably account for 80% of the output, everyone else is along for the ride and when times are good nobody cares.

I believe if you gave majority of people a decent living situation, basics of food, beer/alcohol social hour every night, there probably would be little complaints and most would be satisfied. But you will always have those people who are willing to work during social hour, prove their worth to make even more money, they’re just built different. However, one can argue they’re not exactly living a better life being sucked in work like that.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Even if they produce mostly shit, they all deserve to be payed a good salary. The system will then correct itself because studios will only be willing to pay competent writers a large sum of money. Merit will become important again, not the color of hair.

Great discussion in the thread so far. I’m pretty anti union, pro meritocracy. Why? Obviously influenced by what I’ve observed anecdotally in the environment - the cream usually rises to the top. If you’re that good at what you do, companies will be bidding over you. Talent is key to grow a company and have a competitive advantage over others. The best companies often recognize that.

I think the main designer of AMD and Intel chips was the same? He just hopped companies, went to highest bidder. Need to look him up again. Edit: Found him it’s Jim Keller. He basically setup AMD, Apple, Intel, and Tesla chips.


Also surprised that it has not mentioned - Pareto principle. It applies to almost everything in life. The top 20% workforce probably account for 80% of the output, everyone else is along for the ride and when times are good nobody cares.

I believe if you gave majority of people a decent living situation, basics of food, beer/alcohol social hour every night, there probably would be little complaints and most would be satisfied. But you will always have those people who are willing to work during social hour, they’re just built different.

Not everyone is a once in a lifetime brain bug. In a lot of areas people become bargain chips if unions aren't in place. Its a shitty thing to let 95% of the workforce in a given field be fucked over again and again to argue for the 5% that are field defining smart. These 5% of people will become successful, unions or not.

But I'm biased as I am in a union and have the option to get a out of union contract if I want to go up the corporate ladder, or stay in a rather comfortable work life balance union contract. Its not even necessarily that black and white, I can hop around depending on what I want to do and what I'm able to do. But the base contract is always at minimum a union contract that guarantees I'm not fucked over.
Its harder to get into the company, because the company only want's to pay the better people union wages. So my hope would be for Hollywood to get the good writers, pay them fairly, and thus create better content in the long run.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Disney will pay for stuff that they think could make it money. The fact that She-Hulk and Willow were terrible and unpopular was obviously not the intention. The whole concept of residuals is, again, that you get some of the money the company makes going forward on your work. Residuals being paid out implies a show is successful for a long time, which is what everyone wants. The residual rate for Willow could be 10,000,000% of revenue for every writer forever, and their checks are going to be $0 because 10,000,000% of 0 is 0.

I DO think the writers have a leg to stand on in terms of transparency on streaming numbers. I assume that this is something the companies want to keep under wraps so they'll have to give something up. That's how it goes. I keep harping on this but the writers have a union. The union's job is to negotiate for them. It's not about "fair" which is a meaningless word, but about what they can figure out. This is the literal and expressed purpose of a union.

The term fair pay is a bogus term which means absolutely nothing. It's a vague term with no standard.

As an example, fair pay for a sports league with a union contract might be 60% of league revenue, team salary floors and caps, and the minimum salary is $1M per player. It's probably among the most transparent and public kinds of labour deal out there anyone can read. The players and owners agreed on this as a fair split and rules.

As for a media role, what is fair pay? Amount, per role, per union pay tier, etc.... And after that has been all calculated, why should that be considered fair for both sides?

 

[Toons]

If the royalties are garbage, then that is the fault of the union that hammered out the CBA with the companies.

Unions jobs are to get their clients work.

If the union fails to do that because they won't accept any deal then their clients will leave them.

What you're failing to understand is that the game has changed, streaming has completely rewritten the rulebook on royalties and corporations have used this to their advantage to screw workers. This isnt rumor or hearsay, there are documented cases of this happening.

that doesn't fall on the unions in so far as they accepted those deals under different economic circumstances. That falls on the corporations for being predatory, and that in and of itself debunks the "reasonableness" debate.. You're trying to lay the blame at the feet of unions and absolve the corporations, who have taken unforeseen circumstances to their advantages explicitly to screw over workers, of any fault. Its bootlicker tier nonsense.

How does one even define "exploitation" here? It's not 1880. They're not steelworkers. The writers are represented by a union. The union represents them in negotiations. They're getting paid according to the negotiations of the last CBA. That's pretty much how this thing is supposed to work. Now striking is a tool the union has, they're using it, that's fine. Words like "exploitation" and "unfair" are just not appropriate to this discussion,

They are not only appropriate, they are accurate to the very definition of the term.

You cannot say that striking is fine, while ignoring the cause for that striking, and ignoring the people behind the cause for that striking. Its dishonest, its disingenuous, and it is incorrect.

 

[Ownage]

Ron doesn't give a fuck and is bringing the energy needed for this.


I like it.

As long as he stays on the safe side of the law, have at it. I've seen people questioned by the police for making such statements. They may not press charges but they become "known" to law enforcement.

Honestly, if protestors go this route, it could be an entertainment revolution. Iger basically said let them eat cake. I mean, damn, that's how you start some real problems.

 

[Toons]

What I mean is that when the companies can get away with paying peanuts - you get monkeys. If they are forced into paying a decent residual rate to writers, then the standards will go back up to at least the same level they were at prior to the streaming 'revolution'.

I doubt Disney are going to keep paying writers who are putting out absolute dreck like She Hulk and Willow, if they know they actually have to pay them a decent residual rate.

Theres been garbage shows before streaming, theres garbage shows now, there will be garbage shoes in the future. Their existence isn't necrssaitly indicative of the health of the health of the industry, but the existence of rhe industry at all.

And the notion these things only happen as a result of low wages is... shaky at best. Especially when like i said, a bunch of this stuff is made by the same few people who know each other and have connections. Including stuff that's generally well liked. That she hulk writer has worked on robot chicken and kids cartoons and gotten nominated for Emmys. The main writer behind Velma, is Charlie Grandy, who has worked in the industry for over a decade on sitcoms, daily show, SNL etc and connected with mindy from working on her own show. The same guy who made a bunch of grown men cry with mandalorian season 2s finale, wrote the entirety of the book of Boba feet.

So just listing a couple of divisive shoes isn't a deterministic analysis of industry behavior. The corporations screwing over workers is the norm, it is the rule and not the exception regardless of the quality of show coming out. Thats the whole reasons these unions were created and so many of these folks are in them, and why they are pretty much all in solidarity with each other on this issue.

 

[ADiTAR]

Hollywood was never a meritocracy lol.

Not true at all. There's actually documented and produced history filled with people with actual merit that made Hollywood what it is. Actually today you can say the merit has gone, but that's not due to corruption or nepotism, prob would have been great to see Spielberg's kids continue in his path (tho from a quick Google search, they don't have the talent their father has and one of them did porn?!).

 

[FunkMiller]

Theres been garbage shows before streaming, theres garbage shows now, there will be garbage shoes in the future. Their existence isn't necrssaitly indicative of the health of the health of the industry, but the existence of rhe industry at all.

And the notion these things only happen as a result of low wages is... shaky at best. Especially when like i said, a bunch of this stuff is made by the same few people who know each other and have connections. Including stuff that's generally well liked. That she hulk writer has worked on robot chicken and kids cartoons and gotten nominated for Emmys. The main writer behind Velma, is Charlie Grandy, who has worked in the industry for over a decade on sitcoms, daily show, SNL etc and connected with mindy from working on her own show. The same guy who made a bunch of grown men cry with mandalorian season 2s finale, wrote the entirety of the book of Boba feet.

So just listing a couple of divisive shoes isn't a deterministic analysis of industry behavior. The corporations screwing over workers is the norm, it is the rule and not the exception regardless of the quality of show coming out. Thats the whole reasons these unions were created and so many of these folks are in them, and why they are pretty much all in solidarity with each other on this issue.

The point being, again, that should the WGA and SAG get what they want, we will have more transparency around the programming output, which will determine which writers remain in jobs or not.

Seeing how successful shows actually are with the audience would settle quite a lot of arguments, and help to extract the wheat from the chaff.

 

[FunkMiller]

Spot on assessment here. This really is the Netflix strike.

 

[ProtoByte]

Spot on assessment here. This really is the Netflix strike.

DeKnight dove into head first too. A lot of the hack writers who've been let in and validated by the industry went through Netflix directly or through the groundswell of expanding and expensive production that Netflix created. Those 50-100+ million dollar per season budgets didn't go into the void, they went into the pockets of people like DeKnight.

Consumers went all in on it as well. How many of you people on this website stand by a 100% digital games market? How many of you said fuck DVDs because it's all on streaming, and the content will never leave there? This is what you, FunkMiller, didn't acknowledge with the previous comment I made. Everyone shares some level of the responsibility here.

The "traditional studios" are not going to go back to the good ol' days entirely. However much they do revert, I can tell you that most of the clowns in these unions will not enjoy it, because the guardrails WILL be back up to some degree.

 

[FunkMiller]

Consumers went all in on it as well. How many of you people on this website stand by a 100% digital games market? How many of you said fuck DVDs because it's all on streaming, and the content will never leave there? This is what you, FunkMiller, didn't acknowledge with the previous comment I made. Everyone shares some level of the responsibility here.

The consumer does not share any of the responsibility of the decisions taken by the movie companies. What a triumphantly asinine thing to say.

What’s next, chuckles? You gonna blame the consumer for the failure of Stadia, Windows Vista and New Coke?

Honest to god, the weird ass corporate dick sucking going on here is quite something. Have you got Bob Iger finishing up in your mouth right now?

 

[ProtoByte]

The consumer does not share any of the responsibility of the decisions taken by the movie companies. What a triumphantly asinine thing to say.

If it wasn't making them money, shifting the market to a point where previous methods cannot make money, or putting them in a position that should make money in the future, they wouldn't have done what they did.

The consumer's response to decisions of producers absolutely has an influence on their actions. What a triumphantly stupid idea to think otherwise.

What’s next, chuckles? You gonna blame the consumer for the failure of Stadia, Windows Vista and New Coke?

Honest to god, the weird ass corporate dick sucking going on here is quite something. Have you got Bob Iger finishing up in your mouth right now?

You think about it as "blame". Yes, consumers didn't like any of those things, so they didn't buy them. You just don't care about the results in those cases.

In this case, you and others playing the very unconvincing role of the picket fencer, mostly in support of millionaires, though you don't realise it, aren't willing or able to put things into perspective.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This is a great opportunity for techies interested in specializing in AI. All this current AI 4.0 stuff people have been dabbling with the past year will only get better. Right now with the content posted on GAF some of it is excellent already. Some looks like total shit. But it'll improve.

And better yet, these jobs will likely pay high.

For the traditional media people, you can fight the fight and at some point the companies will bend if you strongarm them enough. It gets to a point management wants to keep the company running as well as for the well being of non-union workers caught in the crossfire so they will give in.

But dont get too cocky because as we've all seen over time whether it's self checkout stations leading to cashiers losing jobs or SAP automated transactions and finances leading to paper pushers losing jobs, at some point tech and AI will join in the process. And a lot of common workers (excluding all the popular celebs making millions who are in their own stratosphere) will transition to non-union tech jobs. In life, you got to improve your skillset or you might be left in the dust.

I'm sure there's people right now being clever churning out AI scripts trying to scab their way in. And they might get hired.

For example, when business grads come out of college they probably just know MS Office (unless things changed the past 25 years). In a finance role, your career progression is fucked if all you know is Office. If you want to progress, you got learn SAP, Oracle, Hyperion etc.... Each company and software tool is different, but every half decent company will have other software they use since MS Office Excel is archaic for databases and overall company transactions. And even better, get an accounting designation. Tools arent always put in your lap to use. Some times you got to be proactive and work with it and test it yourself (without formal training) by dabbling and goolging the answers. In time, now you got experience which leads to better opportunities. And suddenly people come to you for answers because people know you know it. So look at that, you've now got some added value. At one time, I was the second best person in the office using Power BI. I'm still bad at it and dont even use it anymore since that task dropped off my plate after two years of doing it, but there was a project I had to get involved in and zero people in this team knew how to use it. Me included. It was so new IT had to grant me a Power BI license. So I took it on myself to mess around with it. It's not an easy program to use. It's not one of those MS Office kinds of software where everything looks familiar. I had to spend hours googling how to do shit, but eventually got some reports running while uploading data sets from different sources.

That's why I keep stressing, you want to keep a job. Improve yourself. It'll make that much harder to get rid of you than an AI drone kicking you out of your desk.

Biden's Learn to Code statement is overarching. It's not just about coal miners. It's about anyone in any job. Learn to adapt with skillset or lose your job. It doesn't literally mean anyone in a job crisis has to take a course in SEO or e-com coding hoping to zoom to Google at $200,000. It means there's opportunity elsewhere. For example all the Blockbuster min wagers losing their job when NF took over, in reality the number of super high paid jobs in computer-related and business fields took off.

 

[Toons]

Not true at all. There's actually documented and produced history filled with people with actual merit that made Hollywood what it is. Actually today you can say the merit has gone, but that's not due to corruption or nepotism, prob would have been great to see Spielberg's kids continue in his path (tho from a quick Google search, they don't have the talent their father has and one of them did porn?!).

People with merit being present isn't what a meritocracy means.

Meritocracy is the myth that if you're really good at something, you'll rise above the rest regardless. Its a rather common myth, that conveniently ignores all corruption, bigotry, nepotism, and blacklisting that has been a part of Hollywood since day one.

Your dad being great at something doesn't make you good at it. But your dad being great at something means you'll have a much easier path to doing that thing than someone 10x better than you whos dad isn't known in that field.

 

[Toons]

Spot on assessment here. This really is the Netflix strike.

Hes not wrong.

But the thing is, streaming CAN work. And frankly there's no going back at this point. No ones going back to cable. Cable is done, when this generation of boomers dies out it will be completely gone.

The reason Netflix was so dominant is because there wasn't real competing with what it offered . But now... as more subscriptions come the prices start being basically the same as the cable packages were.

The thing is, people don't follow channels. They follow programs, and so the goal became to get must watch shows on your program. And now... you dont have to wait week after week to watch them. You can just watch them all in a day. At least... on the non Disney ones.

Theres a lot of possible solutions but I think we're going to see straming packages that aren't all that different from cable packages. Disney already has started implementing this, and the others will follow suit.

The thing cable had over streaming tho was they HAD to fill something on the air so thats where syndication could generate royalties. Straming has no alternative to this. That ones gonna be tricky.

 

[Tedditalk]

Very good discussion, happy to see people are becoming more aware of how the culture war is just a cheap trick to open your wallet to people that lower your quality of life in every important factor of our lives. I hope these writers just up and leave, permanently, and get other fulfilling careers, because it seems to me that the industry does not care about good writers at all, and will never pay them what they are worth. I would love to see another God father, good fellas, tax driver or another well done, meaningful creative work produced, but as long as they know people only care about eye candy and do not actually want to think, that won't happen.

 

[ADiTAR]

People with merit being present isn't what a meritocracy means.

Meritocracy is the myth that if you're really good at something, you'll rise above the rest regardless. Its a rather common myth, that conveniently ignores all corruption, bigotry, nepotism, and blacklisting that has been a part of Hollywood since day one.

Your dad being great at something doesn't make you good at it. But your dad being great at something means you'll have a much easier path to doing that thing than someone 10x better than you whos dad isn't known in that field.

Yet Spielberg's kids are no where near star level. Yes, some children of actors grew up in the industry and made it, but it's not like the entire film industry is built around that.

The film industry is a meritocracy and amazing films are being made by talented people who didn't rise to the top just because. You have actual evidence which is the art they make.

 

[funkygunther]

but it's not like the entire film industry is built around that.

An All But Definitive Guide to the Hollywood Nepo-Verse

Actors, singers, directors who just happen to be the children of actors, singers, directors.

www.vulture.com

Just keep scrolling.

If you need an industry built on good old fashioned values of nepotism, bribery and sexual exploitation then look no further. Which is funny with all this talk of AI, because this dispute proves these studios already can't cope with the modern technology of streaming. They won't be able to manage another seismic shift like AI.

 

[ADiTAR]

An All But Definitive Guide to the Hollywood Nepo-Verse

Actors, singers, directors who just happen to be the children of actors, singers, directors.

www.vulture.com

Just keep scrolling.

If you need an industry built on good old fashioned values of nepotism, bribery and sexual exploitation then look no further. Which is funny with all this talk of AI, because this dispute proves these studios already can't cope with the modern technology of streaming. They won't be able to manage another seismic shift like AI.

Oh right, so like what, 30 actors/directors who came from previously famous actors/directors is an entire industry? some of them I haven't even heard of, and some (like George Cloony/Laura Dern) are good enough on their own?

Show me a bad actor/director who made it because of nepotism.

 

[funkygunther]

Oh right, so like what, 30 actors/directors who came from previously famous actors/directors is an entire industry? some of them I haven't even heard of, and some (like George Cloony/Laura Dern) are good enough on their own?

Show me a bad actor/director who made it because of nepotism.

Jaden Smith

But it doesn’t matter because bad is subjective, if that’s your criterion for being a meritocracy I could say all of them…but something being good or bad doesn’t define meritocracy. What defines a meritocracy is people’s compensation directly correlating with their talent, which if it were true, there would be no dispute. There wouldn’t even be a union.

 

[ADiTAR]

Jaden Smith

But it doesn’t matter because bad is subjective, if that’s your criterion for being a meritocracy I could say all of them…but something being good or bad doesn’t define meritocracy. What defines a meritocracy is people’s compensation directly correlating with their talent, which if it were true, there would be no dispute. There wouldn’t even be a union.

He was ok in a movie I saw recently and forgot.

But nepotism isn't just prevalent to the film industry, it's almost in every industry, where kids of lawyers/drs/whatever continue in their parents paths.

 

[funkygunther]

He was ok in a movie I saw recently and forgot.

But nepotism isn't just prevalent to the film industry, it's almost in every industry, where kids of lawyers/drs/whatever continue in their parents paths.

Do you think another actor could have been better than ok and made the movie more memorable for you?

 

[ADiTAR]

Do you think another actor could have been better than ok and made the movie more memorable for you?

Prob, I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But to claim the entire industry is built on that is BS, because there are great movies.

 

[funkygunther]

Prob, I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But to claim the entire industry is built on that is BS, because there are great movies.

built on it or not, all I’m saying is that if it exists it can’t be a meritocracy