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By the same token why would any union press for concessions from management when they have such limited leverage?
Especially when the exact same type of action ended disastrously back in 2007-2008?
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Hollywood Hit With Writers Strike After Talks With AMPTP Fail; Guild Slams Studios For “Gig Economy” Mentality
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
By the same token why would any union press for concessions from management when they have such limited leverage?
Especially when the exact same type of action ended disastrously back in 2007-2008?
Grildon Tundy
Gold Member
Jimmythemook was banned for being an alt. Really wish we could see who they were an alt for
All good points, but doesn't fix the problem of Hollywood just running out of easy money or being the sole earner for a media company hemorrhaging cash elsewhere.
I agree with you that writers are a critical part of a good movie/show, but the reality is that there are LOTS of writers and the bulk of their job is pretty pedestrian and easily farmed out to folks willing to work for very little. It's hard for a writer to command the loyalty and repeat business of a director or star, their product goes through too many hands. The writers that are worth their salt are showrunners and DO make with big bucks. It's the worker bee writers getting the squeeze here, the ones that have a harder time making a perpetual living off of one good gig. Bit that's true for EVERYONE, there are no "good gigs" that pay out for life because the entire rerun/syndication market is in shambles and drowned out by a deluge of new content. If a writer want sto make a living writing they need to WORK constantly and they need to gatekeep to ensure their own value, not try to squeeze the stone for more drops of blood.
IMHO.
To be honest Bob Iger is significantly more to blame for Disney's state of affairs than Chapek. Yes he sucked as well, but the problem of "SEQUEL SEQUEL SEQUEL REMAKE HEY HERES OUR IP LOOK WOAH FROZEN RIDE PIXAR RIDE" and just general creative bankruptcy started with Iger. His insistence on buying every successful IP he could has been completely backfiring because people are realizing how creatively dull and generic everything they shit out is now. Disney bought Pixar because of Iger, and guess what? They bled talent like crazy and now their movies have been solidly mediocre with a few exceptions for well over a decade and a half now. People don't care about Pixar anymore as a result. And Star Wars got milked to shit, and now Marvel is getting milked to shit. Iger racked up a massive bill for Disney and now their attempt to even it out as quickly as possible is failing miserably. To be completely honest, it does feel like Chapek getting so much shit was deliberate on Iger's part when he departed so he wouldn't be the one to take the blame.
Disney needs a more Michael Eisner-esque figure who is willing to take risks and venture out into more ideas, even if he screwed up royally twice he really doesn't get enough credit for all of the great stuff he backed in his day. Branching out into more adult-oriented films, supporting 90s renaissance movies pretty heavily, focusing on original content for the parks, it's a shame people only focus on EuroDisney and California Adventure with him.
The constant nostalgia-baiting with so many new movies just re-enforces my indifference with these strikes.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
Hollywood is full of lazy, fat, pointless executives, who have been skimming billions off the top for decades. Let’s hope this strike gets rid of some of them. I’m quite comfortable with all of the major studios crashing. Might mean something better takes their place.
Corpsepyre
Banned
Good. Backlogs and books are waiting for everyone!
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Look at this massive cunt right here:
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
WOW! And I used to think he was a creatives first type. Disappointment is setting in. 90% of writers and actors aren't the ones you see in all the movies and big shows. They're the ones in bit parts and guest star spots or commercials. The ones who might do a good job but don't get the big blockbusters (movie or TV). The more well known you are, the smaller the percentage you become of the entire SAG and WGA. The big movie stars? There's probably 300 of them. In total. There's THOUSANDS of actors in the SAG and you've most likely seen maybe 20% of them in big Hollywood movies. The rest are doing Indies or straight to video movies... Also, tons of pilots for shows are made and never go to series. So that's a lot of talent struggling for years to make a living doing what they love. Same for writers.
I know Feige and Gunn and Nolan and others support the strikes (Nolan and his brother are both script writers on their own movies and part of WGA).
NoLootBoxDev
Member
I am in favor of this strike, also other jobs should do the same to avoid getting to the shit-hole because of AI in the near future,
First, they came for the writers
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a writer
Then they came for the artists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not an artist
Then they came for the programmers
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a programmer
Then they came for the other jobs
And I did not speak out
Because I was not working on those jobs
Then they came for my job
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
How are we allowing this BLATANT ROBOPHOBIA on this site? The sooner I get my robo-valet so I can live in complete relaxation getting AI generated content beamed directly into my head 24/7 to the exclusion of all that climate damaging tourist stuff, the better.
WHAT COULD GO WRONG?!?!?!?
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I’m all for it. Media is subjective and a lot of content is crap anyway.
It’s not like building a bridge where you aren’t going to rely on an AI program to spit out it’s scraped content from random sites hoping the bridge works.
But with media, anything can be good or bad. Whether it’s abstract paintings, realistic art, cohesive movie plots or dumbass stories with tons of mistakes and continuity errors, media as a whole is something that doesn’t need pinpoint accuracy.
All it has to be is enjoyable and popcorn fun. And I can see AI at some point doing it well.
In the gaming thread someone posted a Resident Evil AI mod video where the actresses voice is replaced by an AI version. It sounded great. I’d say the voice quality is as god or better than most you hear in gaming and it’s not even a real person speaking into a mic.
It’s not like building a bridge where you aren’t going to rely on an AI program to spit out it’s scraped content from random sites hoping the bridge works.
But with media, anything can be good or bad. Whether it’s abstract paintings, realistic art, cohesive movie plots or dumbass stories with tons of mistakes and continuity errors, media as a whole is something that doesn’t need pinpoint accuracy.
All it has to be is enjoyable and popcorn fun. And I can see AI at some point doing it well.
In the gaming thread someone posted a Resident Evil AI mod video where the actresses voice is replaced by an AI version. It sounded great. I’d say the voice quality is as god or better than most you hear in gaming and it’s not even a real person speaking into a mic.
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Dr. Samuel Hayden
Member
Bye bitches. Hope all of Hollywood collapses.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Jesus Christ, that's bleak. Media can, and should, strive for a little more than just 'popcorn fun'.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Depends what someone is looking for in TV shows and movies. As long as it’s enjoyable to watch and fun that’s all I care about.
If a robot can do it better, faster or even both then I’ll take a robot. If AI sucks at it, then I’ll prefer a human take control.
It’s no different than assembling cars. Robots do a bunch of the work, and you also have humans to do tasks too. Combined they make great cars quickly.
Key word there is COMBINED. I'd hate to think what a car would look like if an AI spent 10,000 cycles iterating on it without really considering human wants or needs. Probably look something like this...
It seems pretty obvious to me that the BEST creative collaborative endeavors involve one singular vision with a cohesive team that knows when to execute and when to diverge from the vision. So an AI as an assistant is inevitable, I think, to speed up story boarding, detect trends and flaws at a speed and resolution few humans can consistently match, and probably come in at the genesis of a project and at the end editing phase. But the middle meat is where the humans work best, I think, improvising and adapting on the fly based on local conditions and limitations.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
While I agree with you on this specific show, nobody should confuse the current idiotic identity politics driven Hollywood, with the wider and much longer issue of how writers and actors get paid.
This whole thing is being coloured by frankly what amounts to idiots who just see short term, without understanding the bigger picture. Yes, a lot of writers are crap right now, but this whole disagreement is about the next twenty or thirty or even fifty years - not the next couple.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Well, okay. But a lot of people want a little more out of their entertainment than that.
Sure, I love a dumb as fuck action movie as much as the next man, but I also want to watch stuff that's a little more cerebral and thought provoking.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
What people think ink is over exaggeration of AI. Like I said about cars. Just because there’s been assembly lines with robot arms and whatever for decades doesn’t mean the factory has zero employees. The labour pool will focus on other things. Will there be net cuts? Maybe. But hey like in every transition some jobs go up, some go down. Blockbuster video clerks all disappeared. In return long term you got shitloads of coders working on streaming and servers at probably 5 or 10x the pay.Key word there is COMBINED. I'd hate to think what a car would look like if an AI spent 10,000 cycles iterating on it without really considering human wants or needs. Probably look something like this...
It seems pretty obvious to me that the BEST creative collaborative endeavors involve one singular vision with a cohesive team that knows when to execute and when to diverge from the vision. So an AI as an assistant is inevitable, I think, to speed up story boarding, detect trends and flaws at a speed and resolution few humans can consistently match, and probably come in at the genesis of a project and at the end editing phase. But the middle meat is where the humans work best, I think, improvising and adapting on the fly based on local conditions and limitations.
For any writers, this can be a giant boon. It’s not like studios are going to fire all the creative staff and hire a college coder to press a button and upload it for tv and movies.
What will happen is the AI can churn out fast a foundation what to build upon and the creatives will take that and adjust to make it better.
It’s like using MS Office. You can build a template from scratch each time or use a default layout and adjust from there to make it even snazzier.
Now if creative types want total control where they want grassroots creation from the first word drawn on a napkin, that’s going to be a hard fight to win.
How many times in life has technology been totally stonewalled where the people 100% got their way to do it all the traditional way?
And besides I’d bet tons of creative types use AI right now to help them do stuff or get ideas flowing. They just don’t want to say it.
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They would if they could, as long as it means profits to them in the end.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Jesus Christ.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
SAG strike: Avatar and Gladiator sequels look set to be hit as actors walk out
Films and TV shows in production are affected as some 160,000 performers stop work in LA.
www.bbc.com
DKehoe
Member
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SirKicksalot
Member
Work and wine are keeping Ridley Scott alive, and Gladiator 2 is on hold because of the strike 
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
The fuckin balls on these guys
Spyxos
Member
No wonder the strike has been going on for so long. They will probably be using Ai to a large extent very soon. All the people are only needed for a very short time.
balls of snow
Gold Member
They had it coming to them.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
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FunkMiller
Gold Member
The big studios have collapsed before, even if they whole damn thing hasn’t. But that would be more than enough.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
That is fucking outrageous.
The speed at which these greedy as fuck studios and companies are embracing AI as a way to avoid paying real people is just gross.
0neAnd0nly
Member
Didn’t a famous political leader once tell people worried about their jobs to “learn to code”?
Is it different for the entertainment industry, or no?
Is it different for the entertainment industry, or no?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Actually youre right. That is true assuming the AI can churn out content as good. I'd do the same.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
It's not really different holistically. But there's two key differences:
1. White collar desk jobbers assume tech only negatively affects blue collar guys digging ditches. Shoe now on the other foot
2. The blue collar guys losing jobs over the decades (unionized or not) dont have much public eye because guys losing jobs working in a manufacturing company in Idaho isn't splashy like working on tv shows and movies
Toons
Member
This is precisely why this strike is a good thing. They need to realize they are in possession of one of the most important factors in this industry, their talent, their faces, their people.
Money cant replicate that and AI certainly cannot without a source.
This was inevitable but the outcomes gonna be pretty important to the future of entertainment down the line snd what it looks like.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
If money cant replicate humans doing the work, then what's the issue?
All the creative types have to do is prove their content is better than the junk an AI program can churn out, and there should be no problem holding a job.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
You've been beating that same horse to death since the Writer strike began.
Get new material lol
NoLootBoxDev
Member
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Walter Matthau
Member
So at this point is 2024 going to be all reality tv mixed with foreign shows and films?
Some of these boutique labels are going to feast.
Some of these boutique labels are going to feast.
All the better. Break folks from the "narrative", get them watching stuff from areas and times that were normal, and let the great reset work for us for a change.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I have a question: is there ANY situation where you would back a Union? Because for the last few months talking about unions and strikes, you've been pretty anti-union.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Except the "great reset" isn't real and is just conspiracy nonsense?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Sure I would.
If this was 100 years ago where there'd be workers slaving away in unsafe conditions. The conditions back then were terrible. Youd hear about people getting pressed to death by machines meant for making carpets. All those kinds of archaic situations where there were zero safety standards combined with shitty machinery.
Other than that, nope. All those bad situations have been solved for probably 60 years or more.
Working summer jobs and FT jobs, I've seen my share and worked along side union workers. And each time they are lazy as hell. One job I worked during the summer I made minimum wage and made more product at an assembly line machine daily. It was the easiest job ever. Yet you got lazy slobs shutting down early making probably 3 or 4x the pay and reading the Toronto Sun newspaper till it was time to punch out. There were no supervisors during the night shift, so they all goofed around. Those guys even told me to slow down and shut the machine down early with an hour to spare to copy them when in reality all you had to do is shut down 15 mins early to give time to purge the machine, clean the floor and log in the production count from the machine counter.
Another time, our company was potentially going to miss hitting our monthly goal, so the VP asked us to go down the the shipping bay and help out. It was clear the staff were falling behind and many of us have experience. Some office staff even came from the warehouse so they know even more than some of us did. Got stonewalled by the union workers.
Here we are working at the same company and they had zero urgency. They are all just coasting as you got shipping bay doors with trucks waiting.
For those of you who have never worked in a factory, picked orders, wrapped a skid (by hand or using the automated spinning machine), drove a forklift or loaded a truck it's easy as hell.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Who knows what will happen. But if tv shows and movies all get delayed, companies will still show content. It'll just be reruns, more sports, and whatever content (like you suggested) that uses as little union workers as possible. Unlike a factory shutting down completely, media companies have backup content they can broadcast to fill the gap as best as possible.
Sports telecasts should do great if it gets to a point channels show old content.
If it's a super long battle, hey maybe people will realize the world goes on and you dont need all the media jammed down their throats just because it's there. Look what happened to Twitter. Usage seems way down, non-users have to sign up to see tweets. I'm one of those non-users. I cant see anything except sometimes I click on a tweet and the video works some reason. So maybe certain content is allowed to be public. But 99% of it is blocked off from me and any other non-user. Who cares. I just wont see tweets anymore. Life goes on.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
So basically you're saying that your own alleged personal experience with union workers being lazy should trump all the other evidence to the contrary? That all of this is being blown out of proportion and that these people have nothing to complain about? Because you've always struck me as an incredibly intelligent person and as such, you should know better than to use personal anecdotes to make sweeping generalizations about such a wide reaching and diverse industry.
Just because some might be lazy or just because they are not slaving away in a coal mine somewhere doesn't mean they don't deserve to be properly represented and properly compensated for their time and expertise. Because from where I'm sitting it sounds like you're saying that because the majority of places are easier to work at than 75years ago that means that nobody has anything to complain about and shouldn't be in a union. Which is patently ridiculous.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Pay is totally dependent on what you can get. Do it yourself. Dont hold companies or fellow non-union employee hostage caught in the crossfire. On an extreme end, it's like unionized athletes holding out where the snack bar peons get hurt the most since there's no work. Hey, at least for me as a salaried guy I'll still be paid. But people got to look at the big picture.
Go ahead and negotiate all you want reasonably and keep things humming. As one of buddies since university would say.... "how is a company supposed to pay more if things shut down and they lose money?"
Oh, and here's another union doozy which makes no sense. Seniority often trumps all. So a shit worker keeps their job and a newbie who can be good could get axed first. You never get that in non-union environments. That's something that even my unionized sis in law laughs at. She's been a government worker for like 20 years and even she says it's basically impossible to fire her. That's entitlement.
Thats why there's more sense of urgency to do work than union guys coasting and protesting. I'm not saying anyone should be burning themselves out, but it's not unreasonable to ask for some work effort. Hey, I drove the forklift loading trucks. It's not hard to finish off some loads even during lunch for sake of alleviating the trucks building up. It'll only get worse if the shipping bay guys go on lunch for an hour. Who cares. I'll finish off some trucks to relieve pressure and I'll take my lunch break 20 minutes later. Big deal.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
You are basically advocating that everyone should be working in fear of losing their jobs at anytime. You are trying to set back worker rights decades with that kind of mindset. That workers are all just replaceable cogs in a big machine rather than human beings with families, emotions, and bills.
As I said before. Patently ridiculous.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Not at all. As I said, nobody should be slaving away burning themselves out. I'm not accepting a job running around the office from meeting room to meeting room sweating.
Put in a decent day's work, dont take the company hostage, and if you're that good you'll get your money. It's not like people are all forced to make bad wages. People (especially in the US) can get paid a lot. You just got to be worth it to get it. Not hard to understand.
Put it this way. The best paid people (and I'm not even talking about the extremes like CEOs and celebs) arent even unionized kinds of career paths. So it goes to show money is there.
In reality, people are cogs. People come and go. In reality replacement actually stems more from workers than bosses firing people. There's going to be more people quitting for another job than bosses giving out pink slips. So if you think of it that way, workers are actually less loyal than managers. But hey, if they want to change jobs (I have many times) go ahead if there's something better. And if a boss thinks there's someone else better, same thing too.
It's a big hassle to fire people or have them pissy leaving where the onus is on managers/HR to rehire and retrain. A big hassle. And costly too since a recruiter probably gets $10,000 to help fill a role. Unless a company is going broke and cant pay the bills (thats a totally different situation) every company will keep workers and pay them well to stick around and do the job. But if the company doesn't want to pay more risking them leaving or would rather fire people, then it just boils down to they're a shitty employee(s).
At the end of the day, if the company is paying shitty or job security is on the line then talk to the boss and see what to do to help keep their job. Here's one easy example of anyone on the cusp of job security. Most big companies offer developmental opportunities. It can be brushing up on public speaking, MS Excel, learning to use Power BI etc... I'm sure unionized workers have their own career path opps. Well guess what? Do some. Even if you know it might not really help, just do some on company dime. Not only will it help your resume, but since the company sunk resources into you they'll be less inclined to screw you over because they dont want you leaving and wasting their $2000 course fee.
Do you think I give a shit about about learning about E-com strategies? I do finance. But I did the course and have it on my resume as well as the company know I completed it because my employee profile shows I completed the course and I can remind my boss I did it when it comes to annual evaluation time. It was something interesting but not my cup of tea no matter what. Each person who did it cost the company like $1500 per head. Sometimes, you got to stretch out a bit and a company will notice you more.
The reason why I chose an E-com course is simply because anything E-com is a big thing nowadays. So I'm just looking out for my career this way. I dont need to take numbers, Excel and database kinds of course because the norm is finance people already are good at it. So I took something that should help my career stability.
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