Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react

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I think people need to have a basic understanding of the game before they speak. There's a whole lot of misinformed people saying that there's absolutely no reason to include it in this game series as if they're an authority on what this game series is attempting to accomplish but then their post makes it obvious that they've never played this series.

But we need to be outraged about a game about horrible people doing horrible things...
 
Oh aren't you clever. You took my quote and then added a gif of people laughing. Aren't you a clever, clever poster.

I'm sorry that I find it genuinely amusing that people trot out 'compromised artistic vision' like clockwork in these threads as though games developers are fucking Picasso, when in fact Michael Bay would be a good quality-level for half of these 'controversial' games to aim for.

Gaming is not going to be held back as an artform if you don't gleefully encourage developers to include ill-thought-out rape scenes in Tomb Raider or fill Hitman with latex-clad nun-assassins. The entire line of thought is absurd. In fact it's more likely to be held back as an artform if nobody ever questions or debates the more stupid 'artistic visions' in gaming, because it will lead developers to think that those things are good and that they should be including more of them in games. Not every rape scene in a game is just such a bad decision. Sometimes people will debate these things and come to the conclusion that it's appropriate, or that they really were aiming to make a point. But to insist that the debate should not even be had is not cool.

And ultimately, if a developer does change their 'vision', that's not the fault of the people complaining, it's the fault of the developer. If you put something controversial in your game and then buckle at the first sign of criticism, that's a sign that you probably weren't very committed to it in the first place and hence that your 'vision' was more along the lines of PR and manufacturing controversy, or that you just think nuns in latex with guns are sexy and hot, than art and creative vision.
 
Rape gets called out in any medium when it's used as a shitty plot device, see Mark Millar, I Spit on Your Grave, etc.

I Spit on Your Grave original is sitting at 55% on rotten tomatoes. Movies even have a genre around it, aka rape/revenge films. You see less of it now but at least they can explore those boundaries and giving it a fair chance.
 
I think he's trying to say that at some point in each of our family trees somewhere there was probably a child born due to rape. But what a terrible thing to even say in this thread as it has no relevance on the discussion.

Yeah, I know what he was trying to say, I just really couldn't believe it. Never heard that one before.
 
I'm sorry that I find it genuinely amusing that people trot out 'compromised artistic vision' like clockwork in these threads as though games developers are fucking Picasso, when in fact Michael Bay would be a good quality-level for half of these 'controversial' games to aim for.

Gaming is not going to be held back as an artform if you don't gleefully encourage developers to include ill-thought-out rape scenes in Tomb Raider or fill Hitman with latex-clad nun-assassins. The entire line of thought is absurd. In fact it's more likely to be held back as an artform if nobody ever questions or debates the more stupid 'artistic visions' in gaming, because it will lead developers to think that those things are good and that they should be including more of them in games.

And ultimately, if a developer does change their 'vision', that's not the fault of the people complaining, it's the fault of the artist. If you put something controversial in your game and then buckle at the first sign of criticism, that's a sign that you probably weren't very committed to it in the first place and hence that your 'vision' was more along the lines of PR and manufacturing controversy than art and creative vision.

See, was that so hard? Far less lazy than simply quoting me and adding a gif of someone laughing. See, I find it genuinely amusing that people trot out stupid gifs like clockwork in threads like these when they disagree with a poster's comment instead of actually addressing his comment with a rebuttal.

Question though, have you played this game series? You seem to think that the developers just did this for shits and giggles and didn't have a vision when adding this scene. And I agree that they should never compromise and backdown due to pressure, but a lot of times that pressure comes from their financial backers who are scared of the controversy.;
 
I Spit on Your Grave original is sitting at 55% on rotten tomatoes. Movies even have a genre around it, aka rape/revenge films. You see less of it now but at least they can explore those boundaries and giving it a fair chance.

Yeah, exploitation films. There's a reason why they're called that.
 
I suspect it would largely fly under the radar, like the implications of the shower scene in Mafia 2. Male on male rape is like female on male domestic violence, it's as if we fear that treating it with the appropriate gravity may somehow diminish the sympathy we feel for traditional victims.

it's thanks to standard gender roles in modern society pretty much anywhere

we don't have sympathy for male victims of rape or domestic violence because men are stereotypically supposed to be able to defend themselves, so if it happens people treat it as a joke
 
Thankfully I enjoy most artistic mediums and don't shit on one medium or the other.

Just saying, people usually go to great lengths to explain why games are and should be different to movies (which I agree with) but when it suits them they're suddenly just like movies. And yes, I realise I'm generalising.
 
I think that hotline miami will be a one hit wonder, hm2 will sell well but imo will be just more of the same, and this rape thing seems to me just a marketing strategy.

To be honest i was expecting a rape scene already in the first one
when you kill the samurai girl
 
I don't quite understand how the consensual bdsm fantasies written by a woman for a largely female audience tie in to this particular debate?
The 'by a woman' part is the thing that im wondering about, if a man had written 50 shades if gray would it have been received differently?
 
There's some justification to killing somone or something, in the real world and in video games. Rape has no justification other than being a sick F. If developers want to cater to sick fucks, then that's their right, I suppose. I just don't want to see another Hot Coffee incident with other developers and publishers having their legitimately creative games share some of this ugly spotlight by the generalizing media and public.

What is the justification in video games? I can murder an entire village of innocent people in Skyrim. In Hotline Miami you are told to kill people for pretty much no reason. The only justification is that it advances the game, is fun, and earns points. Those reasons could be used to justify a video game rape.
 
No I'm not justifying anything. Poster said that killing is sometimes justified in real life which is fucked up. I'm arguing that rape happens and has always happened in real life and shouldn't be some sick taboo subject to never be handled in video games like killing.

You can understand it the wrong way if you want tho.

Then your reply is a misunderstanding of the post you quoted.

There's some justification to killing somone or something, in the real world and in video games. Rape has no justification other than being a sick F.
 
What does that has to do with this? And why feminists? Im sure that a lot of people (me included) find rape disturbing over other acts of violence. Stick to youtube arguments.


And what makes you think it won't have any relevance in the game? Even if it means that I hate the protagonist it means I already established q connection with him.

The scene has the same justification as the killing of enemies: To progress the game. "Here, go do this terrible thing that, for some reason, you find more terrible than the host of other terrible things you are doing in this game (one of which is arguably more terrible), or we won't let you get to level 6." Oh God this is disgusting ."BUT WAIT, we pulled the rug out from you. You actually didn't have to do it, that was a scene for a movie with actors acting."

And there's the kicker. For Hotline Miami 2, read: TWO, the only way to get that creepy uncomfortable feeling of Hotline Miami 1 back was to push the envelope. Already within the series people will have become desensitized to murder, even those who felt uncomfortable with the first game. Hell, read the article in the OP; the beginning of it is dedicated to how much they've expanded your arsenal and made it more detailed as if that's a good thing, and acceptable. But now every time you kill an enemy you're thinking about why that "implied rape which didn't even happen" scene was more uncomfortable than anything you've done so far.

Unless you just see Hotline Miami as an A to B mechanics experience which, unfortunately, a lot will because of the nature of the medium.

I understand your point, and it makes sense. But do you really play Hotline miami for the "I'm doing terrible things and have to live with it" thing? No, you are playing because it's fun. It's not Spec ops: the line where the story is far more important than the gameplay. Pushing the envelope makes the game more shocking, and I think that's not what most people are playing it for.
 
Murder is accepted and even normal in most games because of the safety of the context provided within them. When you're playing a criminal, a soldier following orders, or a good character charged with the task of eliminating bad guys, it's all okay for most people to accept. We watch film and television that regularly has made violence a core element of its storytelling and entertainment value for many decades since WWII. People are generally fine with that. What we don't do is watch rape or simulated rape because there's never a reason for it in the context of a game. What reason is there for rape being displayed so upfront? Why make the player complicit to such an act and witness something that has nothing to do with their goals? Games and literature/film are different enough that it should be necessary to understand that reading about or viewing something is different from playing something that makes you a direct part of the experience. Does it matter if murder is worse than rape when one is given context and the other isn't and, on top, does not fit with our sensibilities? No one's going out and wasting people like a video games unless you're some kind of messed up individual to begin with, but do we need a reason to witness or imply the act of rape when there's simply no game-value for it? Murder in games is a more abstract act that fits within a well-understood and familiar theme seen in literature and film and even gaming prior to video games. Rape has no value in entertainment such as gaming.
I agree entirely that rape mechanically makes no sense in a videogame, and how murder fits into the structure of games well ( I even said so a few posts back). My question wasn't some veiled statement about how rape is fine. I understand how no one that has been murdered is emotionally effected by it (obviously), but I still think its odd that as a society, killing people in media is so easily accepted, and rape is not. Murders have great emotional effects on people (not to say that those effects are the same as those who are raped). Hell, you don't get the death penalty for raping someone, but you can for murdering someone. There is this disconnect between real life killing and media killing that doesn't exist for rape.
 
Maybe this is what the creator is going for, to see how people can draw a line, however thin, between rape and murder? If people get outraged at a character getting raped, then why arent they outraged at people getting murdered? Both are reprehensible and serious criminal acts, then how can we even seperate them?

They knew this would cause a shitstorm, especially with how much focus there is on women and gaming lately.

Either its a stunt meant to promote the game in some way, or the creators have something to actually say here, or both.
 
Im not quite sure about that. Could result in a far worse discussion.

I am quite sure about that.

I'm not sure how old you are, but people who don't recognize the name should Wiki John Bobbitt.

That dude's girlfriend cut his dick off and put in a garbage disposal. And people thought it was funny. It was a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge joke all over the media. Paraphrasing Bill Burr here, but do you think if John Bobbitt cut off his wife's tit and put it in the microwave, ANYONE would think it was funny? People would be horrified.

Another example: Pulp Fiction.

Anecdotal evidence obviously, but there is a brutal male rape scene in that film that makes me VERY uncomfortable and I know a lot of people who say that's their favorite part of the film. It is disturbing yes, but nobody ever brings it up when vicious rape scenes in movies are brought up. This is one of the most acclaimed films of the last 25 years.
 
I found it interesting that the most gruesome deaths in the first game took place when you had no control over the character.

Yeah, and usually against defenseless characters, too.
There were many interesting things going on in the first HM, when it comes to manipulating your emotions and reactions.
I think the super fast paced gameplay and soundtrack fell into that realm perfectly, too.. you entered a state on trance after some time, where the repetition of killing became second nature-like, satisfying automated action.. then you were catapulted out of it, with the control being taken from you and you simply had to sit and watch how the character would inflict horrendous pain on some poor bastard, it put everything you had done before into a weird perspective.

I think what's happening here is the same thing, at a core level.
And as i said before, i think it's brilliant.

Not even Spec Ops made me reflect on game violence like HM did, frankly.
 
There is still a criticism and concern about video games portraying consensual sex in a tasteful manner, so I can see the concern about any rape scene, implied or otherwise.

I can see both sides of the coin, an implied rape scene certainly makes sense in HM's world of hyper violence. At the same time, its portrayal of violence makes it the worst game in all of games to tackle this subject. All developers have to set their limits of social responsibility and the boundaries they want to cross. I'm not sure that video games are quite ready yet to explore sexual violence. As long as we're dealing with player agency driving the narrative, its going to be a complicated subject.
 
No I'm not justifying anything. Poster said that killing is sometimes justified in real life which is fucked up. I'm arguing that rape happens and has always happened in real life and shouldn't be some sick taboo subject to never be handled in video games like killing.

You can understand it the wrong way if you want tho.

Killing can be justified in a war setting or in self defense

Rape is not justified even in a war setting and is always an aggressive act

This proposed equivalence between the two is probably the biggest logical fallacy being employed in this thread and I'm shocked that it hasn't been shot down yet
 
So from what I've read up on HLM2's plot the game
cuts between this movie being filmed, where you play this Pig Butcher who is the movie version of "Jacket" from the first game, and a group of 4 teens who are inspired by Jacket to become vigilantes.

It brings up an interesting contrast with the first game as well where
Jacket actually takes the woman the actress is based off home & you see her clean up and them get closer before her death.

I think the scene is meant to offend, I think they might be doing some clever things in respect to people's attitudes as well as wapping it into the first games plot.
for example what "Jacket did in the first game was horrific, but still has to be "made worse" for the movie version could be one avenue to explore, merged in with the need for sequels to be even more shocking.
I hope there's something more clever to be said from it. I have faith that they've not simply put it there for pure shock without commentary.
 
I agree entirely that rape mechanically makes no sense in a videogame, and how murder fits into the structure of games well

Rape could easily mechanically fit into a videogame. Murder fits most video games, but you could easily build a videogame where the main character must extract secrets from enemy spies, and chooses to do so by threatening (or going through) with brutal rapes.
 
Then your reply is a misunderstanding of the post you quoted.

I'm so confused right now.

A game about being a sick F shouldn't have sick F things in it according to him? Help me a little.

My statement was a bit off-color (I'm sorry) but I hope he understands I'm not here insulting him personally. At least it wasn't my intent.

Killing can be justified in a war setting or in self defense

Rape is not justified even in a war setting and is always an aggressive act

Everything I'm saying is in context of talking about Hotline Miami. It's a crazy ass game if you haven't played it.
 
i just played the opening to sr3. you murder tons of police officers to rob a bank even though you're already rich. there's no 'good' justification for the the massacre, in fact, we've gotten to the point where graphic video game murder is comical. looking at the hm2 clip, i don't feel offended and i think it serves its intended purpose.
 
Just saying, people usually go to great lengths to explain why games are and should be different to movies (which I agree with) but when it suits them they're suddenly just like movies. And yes, I realise I'm generalising.

This applies both ways, as I seen in gaf constantly (in different issues, mind you)

But maybe you should look it more like "everyone has different priorities about what constitues enterteiment or art" than outright hipocresy.
 
So is rape worse than murder?

Not exactly always quantifiable from a simple question like that...I guess everything is relative to the context.

I'll just say this though, and this is not directed at you, there's no point in pretending that sexual violence doesn't stir up more emotion in general. That's how humans are wired, no so need to act surprised over that fact.
 
I am quite sure about that.

I'm not sure how old you are, but people who don't recognize the name should Wiki John Bobbitt.

That dude's girlfriend cut his dick off and put in a garbage disposal. And people thought it was funny. It was a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge joke all over the media. Paraphrasing Bill Burr here, but do you think if John Bobbitt cut off his wife's tit and put it in the microwave, ANYONE would think it was funny? People would be horrified.

Another example: Pulp Fiction.

Anecdotal evidence obviously, but there is a brutal male rape scene in that film that makes me VERY uncomfortable and I know a lot of people who say that's their favorite part of the film. It is disturbing yes, but nobody ever brings it up when vicious rape scenes in movies are brought up. This is one of the most acclaimed films of the last 25 years.

Rape is rape, even if the some of populace gives one version of it (male on male) less relevance than male on female. It's still one person exerting force over someone else to violate them. Comparing male to male and male to female clouds the issue for no real reason because at the end of the day someone is being raped. Someone is being victimized.
 
I understand how no one that has been murdered is emotionally effected by it (obviously), but I still think its odd that as a society, killing people in media is so easily accepted, and rape is not. Murders have great emotional effects on people (not to say that those effects are the same as those who are raped). Hell, you don't get the death penalty for raping someone, but you can for murdering someone. There is this disconnect between real life killing and media killing that doesn't exist for rape.

Well, for one, you don't go and rape the other guys because they're out to rape you first. That's the thing with killing in games is that you're trying to take their pieces off of the board before they take yours. Now, we just do it with more exaggerated graphic violence instead of putting a game piece aside or having them blink out of existence.
 
It's just struck me: This reminds me of Paedogeddon.

A little backstory: Brass Eye was a spoof news show satirising in-depth report programmes. One episode tackled paedophilia, and fairly savagely pilloried the extreme hysteria journalists would whip up about it.

Many journalists latched on to it, decrying it for glorifying a hideous act. In one memorable case, one newspaper did it just one column away from one noting how young singer Charlotte Church was, ah, growing up. - in itself accentuating the parody in a way the people behind Brass Eye could never have dreamed of.

Brass Eye was not about paedophilia. It was not glorifying paedophilia. It was encouraging people to take an introspective look at their reaction to it compared with other things.

This is not about rape. This is not glorifying rape. This is encouraging people to take an introspective look at their reaction to it compared with other things.
 
I am quite sure about that.

I'm not sure how old you are, but people who don't recognize the name should Wiki John Bobbitt.

That dude's girlfriend cut his dick off and put in a garbage disposal. And people thought it was funny. It was a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge joke all over the media. Paraphrasing Bill Burr here, but do you think if John Bobbitt cut off his wife's tit and put it in the microwave, ANYONE would think it was funny? People would be horrified.

Another example: Pulp Fiction.

Anecdotal evidence obviously, but there is a brutal male rape scene in that film that makes me VERY uncomfortable and I know a lot of people who say that's their favorite part of the film. It is disturbing yes, but nobody ever brings it up when vicious rape scenes in movies are brought up. This is one of the most acclaimed films of the last 25 years.

Well you are right. But Films are overall better recieved than games. I dont know what will happen if this happens in a game. Hotline Miami seems like a game mostly for male gamers. I wonder what happens if they have to rape male people.
 
Rape is rape, even if the some of populace gives one version of it (male on male) less relevance than male on female. It's still one person exerting force over someone else to violate them. Comparing male to male and male to female clouds the issue for no real reason because at the end of the day someone is being raped. Someone is being victimized.

I don't think you understood my post?

I absolutely agree that it's bad. What I'm saying is if it WAS a male on male rape scene, this discussion wouldn't be happening.
 
I'm sorry that I find it genuinely amusing that people trot out 'compromised artistic vision' like clockwork in these threads

He probably wasn't annoyed that you found it amusing, he was probably annoyed that you just posted a gif that didn't saying anything at all. Your post was basically just "Lol" which is pretty much useless. You explained it now, but would it have killed you to explain why you thought it was funny in the first place?
 
It's a really complex issue. Rape depictions affect people differently in different medias. I know this personally. I can read about rape in a novel without getting too shaken but I can barely watch it on tv or in a film. I get shivers just seeing someone refer to certain movies without having even seen the scenes in question.

I don't think we can expect games to be left as some taboo area where rape can't be talked about. It's about the media (and hopefully gamers) maturing. The price is that we might get to feel extremely uncomfortable but if that in turn makes even a couple of potential rapists get a better view on why rape is horrible, that's a price we might as well pay.

The reactions and discussion is all part of it. Some people will get offended. Deal with it. A really old fantasy book series, Covenant chronicles, that deconstructed some Lord of the Rings ideas back in the day gets people up in arms still every time it comes up. The main character is a crazed leper who rapes a girl who might or might not be imaginary. It's not glorified, and it's actually something he pays for... a lot. But some people still throw the book away in disgust at that point. And that's their right. As people have pointed out, murder victims don't get to see the crime recreated like rape victims can.

Pixelated rape in games is not new though. Just remember that piece of crap Custer's Revenge.
 
I'm assuming she's offended by Girl With the Dragon Tattoo? After all that's rape AND torture.
Exactly. I didn't see any "journalist" feeling betrayed by that movie. The article is absolutely ridiculous:

How can you enjoy yourself in a game if you are the victim of every brutal crime, and not the perpetrator of them? A horrible question – but it’s about freedom, power, and who gets to have those things. The sexual violence at the end of that tutorial will single out a fifth of the female audience who have experienced sexual violence. I’m thinking about them when I turn back to the game.

Is that about women not being the protagonist? Because then hacking hundreds of people to death wouldn't be brutal, let alone a crime, right?
Let us ban every rape scene in every medium because they might "single out" those who have experienced it. Oh, wait, books and movies get a pass because those scenes are part of the story, but I guess Hotline Miami is not allowed to have any kind of purpose in its plot.

Cara Ellison wants to be offended. It's not a surprise rape scene in Mario Party, it's an implied rape scene in a pixel art game about violence. It also has a purpose, and it's not to offend, as pointed by many in the thread.
 
It's just struck me: This reminds me of Paedogeddon.

A little backstory: Brass Eye was a spoof news show satirising in-depth report programmes. One episode tackled paedophilia, and fairly savagely pilloried the extreme hysteria journalists would whip up about it.

Many journalists latched on to it, decrying it for glorifying a hideous act. In one memorable case, one newspaper did it just one column away from one noting how young singer Charlotte Church was, ah, growing up. - in itself accentuating the parody in a way the people behind Brass Eye could never have dreamed of.

Brass Eye was not about paedophilia. It was not glorifying paedophilia. It was encouraging people to take an introspective look at their reaction to it compared with other things.

This is not about rape. This is not glorifying rape. This is encouraging people to take an introspective look at their reaction to it compared with other things.
Post of the thread right there.
 
Exactly. I didn't see any "journalist" feeling betrayed by that movie. The article is absolutely ridiculous:

How can you enjoy yourself in a game if you are the victim of every brutal crime, and not the perpetrator of them? A horrible question – but it’s about freedom, power, and who gets to have those things. The sexual violence at the end of that tutorial will single out a fifth of the female audience who have experienced sexual violence. I’m thinking about them when I turn back to the game.

Is that about women not being the protagonist? Because then hacking hundreds of people to death wouldn't be brutal, let alone a crime, right?
Let us ban every rape scene in every medium because they might "single out" those who have experienced it. Oh, wait, books and movies get a pass because those scenes are part of the story, but I guess Hotline Miami is not allowed to have any kind of purpose in its plot.

Cara Ellison wants to be offended. It's not a surprise rape scene in Mario Party, it's an implied rape scene in a pixel art game about violence.

Man these threads get some fucked up responses. I think I'm all set.
 
Not exactly always quantifiable from a simple question like that...I guess everything is relative to the context.

I'll just say this though, and this is not directed at you, there's no point in pretending that sexual violence doesn't stir up more emotion in general. That's how humans are wired, no so need to act surprised over that fact.

Agree, but is weird to me that the writter feels "betrayed" in this game when the first one also had a pretty explicit scene of sexual violence at the end of the game (not mention being the only female enemy).

Seemed to me that the game was not going to shy away about that kind of violance in the second installement.
 
This applies both ways, as I seen in gaf constantly (in different issues, mind you)

But maybe you should look it more like "everyone has different priorities about what constitues enterteiment or art" than outright hipocresy.

Of course, it's just that the same arguments for why they're different could be used in this thread but I haven't seen much of that. Just an observation and I'm not saying everyone here is guilty of hypocrisy.

One thing thats interesting though is that the game frames the scene as a movie to take the sting out of it so in a way it's commenting on the same issue.
 
I would completely understand if a person who witnessed 20 people beimg slaughtered in a room in 2 minutes would feel unconfortable with HM.

If someone feels uncomfortable with it that's fine, but they probably shouldn't be choosing to play an ultra violent game.

no one's say it's not acceptable or it shouldn't happen or the game should be canned and deleted

she played it and had a bad reaction then wrote about it on the internet, and that's fine

The concept seems to be Taboo in games, I don't have an issue with the author of the article feeling uncomfortable with it, but it seems perfectly acceptable in other media and I don't not understand why there seems to be a double standard.

I could see two reasons:

-rape scenes in film often have females as part of the creation process (whether it be in writing, acting or direction).

-the viewer of a film is not actively controlling the rapist.

I don't really see why a woman working on it would make a difference, nor am I positive there are no females working on HM2. I don't really see a significant difference in whether the criminal is watched or played as but I suppose that could be a significant difference to some.

I can't say with certainty since I didn't grow up in that era, but I imagine that Hollywood underwent similar growing pains when the violence and sex (rape or otherwise) depicted became more graphic. Initial outrage by critics and some audiences, but with time, art won out.

Point taken.
 
I don't think you understood my post?

I absolutely agree that it's bad. What I'm saying is if it WAS a male on male rape scene, this discussion wouldn't be happening.

No, I understood completely. What I'm saying is that if this was male on male, you're right. It would probably be some jokes, and people would lose site of the person who was victimized. Just like they did with John Bobbit. I remember how many punchlines had that guy's name in them after that happened. Women were like "He shouldn't have been cheating!' There was all kinds of excuses that let Lorena Bobbit off the hook. The group that wasn't victimized was practically writing excuses for why that guy had his cock lopped off. We see the same thing with sexualization in videogames. Look at the Dragon's Crown thread. There's a whole swath of posters ready and willing to let the creators off the hook for something like "artistic vision" or any number of excuses because what they're seeing in the game doesn't effect them.

In regards to Hotline Miami, I get that the creators may have a point, and you should feel repulsed but this entire thing doesn't sit well with me. I'm not even sure why rape is something that should be approached in a medium where player agency is what makes the medium work.
 
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