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[twobear]

See, was that so hard? Far less lazy than simply quoting me and adding a gif of someone laughing. See, I find it genuinely amusing that people trot out stupid gifs like clockwork in threads like these when they disagree with a poster's comment instead of actually addressing his comment with a rebuttal.

Question though, have you played this game series? You seem to think that the developers just did this for shits and giggles and didn't have a vision when adding this scene. And I agree that they should never compromise and backdown due to pressure, but a lot of times that pressure comes from their financial backers who are scared of the controversy.;

No, I haven't, and I edited the post to reflect the fact that not every debate about a controversial part of a game is an indicator that the developer are doing something juvenile or stupid. Sometimes (rarely, I think, in gaming), such scenes carry weight.

Also, I never said that developers should never compromise and back down. I said that if that's what they do, you shouldn't run out to try and blame the people who criticised it: I said that if the developer does change it that's an indication that they probably hadn't really put much 'artistic vision' into it in the first place.

I also disagree that finances have much of anything to do with it. Controversy is renowned marketing; look at Manhunt and GTA if you think that public outrage does much to blunt sales.

The bottom line is that you shouldn't be attacking people who criticise things that you like for 'compromising artistic vision', it's a completely absurd argument in general, moreso when applied to videogames. Criticism and debate of issues is the lifeblood of a healthy culture. Trying to stifle that debate is what leads to curtailed creativity and stagnation, not the other way around.

 

[Burt]

The whole point of the rape scene is the same point the developers tried to drive home in the original: why would you play a game like this? What the fuck is wrong with you?

The first game overtly questioned why you would be complicit in mass murder just because a you were directed to do it. Whatever, people said, it's an awesome game, I love this shit.

So they made a game about the people who loved the first game, and once again said, "Look at this shit. Look how wrong this is. This is you loving monstrosities." But people still aren't getting the point, it seems. They'd rather freak out over a simulated act than think about just how toxic and heinous the people who orchestrated that simulation for their enjoyment must be. Because that would be us, metaphorically.

I bet the devs are having a good laugh about the irony of people who idolize the first game then get upset about the second game being about idolizing and exaggerating the events of the original.

 

[Village]

So is rape worse than murder?

In the context of this , and representing it in art, no. Its art, weird art that I want no part in, but they can do that.

In general, Yes Sexual crimes are worse, you have to be proactive to commit those.

 

[Arozay]

In the next level you jump on a homeless persons cake.

 

[Fried Food]

I'm not sure I see the problem. It's not like the game is making you take part in the act.

 

[theRizzle]

There was male on male rape in Far Cry 3 and it bothered no one. Patricia from Kotaku even seemed kind of happy about it.

Exactly.

Kotaku article

This article (written by a woman, Patricia Hernandez) gives 3 reasons why she thinks the rape was included in the game. It's an interesting read, especially in contrast to the HM2 article.

 

[Hot Coldman]

In the next level you jump on a homeless persons cake.

The final boss can only be defeated by gatecrashing a funeral and doing a wee on the coffin.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

In the next level you jump on a homeless persons cake.

In the tutorial level of the first game the main character casually murders a homeless.

 

[Alebrije]

the game look like my old GTA 2 for PS one....

the rape scene looks like Porky´s videogame for Atari 2600

NSFW :

http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Porkys_2600_ScreenShot2.jpg

 

[SmokyDave]

In the context of this , and representing it in art, no.

In general, Yes Sexual crimes are worse, you have to be proactive to commit those.

Much as this 'which is worse' stuff is pointless, I feel we can judge which we as a society feel is worse by the relative severity of our punishments. Are there any countries in the world where rape carries a heavier punishment than murder?

 

[Retro_]

Everything I'm saying is in context of talking about Hotline Miami. It's a crazy ass game if you haven't played it.

Tried it. Didn't like it. For the similar reasons to why I didn't like Super Meat Boy.

Doesn't look like the sequel is going to bring me back.

 

[rexor0717]

Rape could easily mechanically fit into a videogame. Murder fits most video games, but you could easily build a videogame where the main character must extract secrets from enemy spies, and chooses to do so by threatening (or going through) with brutal rapes.

Well, for one, you don't go and rape the other guys because they're out to rape you first. That's the thing with killing in games is that you're trying to take their pieces off of the board before they take yours. Now, we just do it with more exaggerated graphic violence instead of putting a game piece aside or having them blink out of existence.

I'm not arguing with you, I agree. As stated above, if you could work it into the game mechanics, would it then be "ok"? What about torture in general?

 

[OverBlood 3]

So just to be clear because I think I'm missing something.

In the game, they are shooting a scene in a film where there is a rape occurring, the director shouts cut then gives her direction in her acting to act more 'feminine' is that right?

So basically it's more of a comment on film and film sexual violence than say an actual rape happening in the game? So really no rape even occurs?

 

[DexterPepper]

In the tutorial level of the first game the main character casually murders a homeless.

Wasn't that self defense? He's hostile.

 

[Arozay]

In the tutorial level of the first game the main character casually murders a homeless.

As long as they left the cake alone.

 

[BleachAndPepsi]

So is rape worse than murder?

To some people.

I used to date a girl who had been assaulted at a party. She didn't like to talk about it but one time when she was really down and we had been drinking, she started crying and said "Why didn't he just kill me instead?" What he had done to her mind, her sense of self, her trust, and her sense of worth was worse than death in her eyes.

Obviously this isn't going to be the same for everyone, but for some, there are fates far worse than death, and mental torment can be one of those.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Wasn't that self defense? He's hostile.

Yeah, it's like the one kill in the game that could be justified as self-defence, haha.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

I bet the devs are having a good laugh about the irony of people who idolize the first game then get upset about the second game being about idolizing and exaggerating the events of the original.

This. So much. As I said in my earlier post it delves into sequels having to up the ante & about how in a film based on the first games events they still have to make it worse for film than the actual fucked up things jacket did.

 

[BigDes]

Much as this 'which is worse' stuff is pointless, I feel we can judge which we as a society feel is worse by the relative severity of our punishments. Are there any countries in the world where rape carries a heavier punishment than murder?

I would be careful going down this road. Because using the punishments meted out to rapists as a metric for how acceptable it is would lead to the sad conclusion that rape is a ok.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

I understand your point, and it makes sense. But do you really play Hotline miami for the "I'm doing terrible things and have to live with it" thing? No, you are playing because it's fun. It's not Spec ops: the line where the story is far more important than the gameplay. Pushing the envelope makes the game more shocking, and I think that's not what most people are playing it for.

Who's to say how people absorb media though? Everyone is free to take every experience in their own way, or even to be ignorant of underlying themes and questions. One person could be playing Hotline Miami completely at arms length, disconnected from what's actually happening on screen. To that person it's just a mechanics experience, a challenge. Getting from A to B in the most efficient way possible. Why are they disconnected, though? Desensitization? Familiarity with the medium? Numb due to real life experiences? Mental Issues? Who knows.

On the other hand, I've read about many gamers who've not just taken Hotline Miami at face value, and end up feeling uncomfortable with the first game. The combination of music, trippy visuals, and ultra-violence, despite the art style, is nasty, and makes them question what's going on, why they are killing dudes, and why they're still "enjoying" it. Are they somehow at fault for taking more from the game than you feel is intended? I don't think so. It's the same way that some movies can just be movies, but for others the same movie is a revelation, or moving experience.

In either case, discussion is a good thing, and I think in this case Hotline Miami 2 is doing its job well. The issue now is sifting out REactions from OVERreactions.

 

[Kazerei]

The concept seems to be Taboo in games, I don't have an issue with the author of the article feeling uncomfortable with it, but it seems perfectly acceptable in other media and I don't not understand why there seems to be a double standard.

Other media do get criticized though. As others have mentioned:

Rape gets called out in any medium when it's used as a shitty plot device, see Mark Millar, I Spit on Your Grave, etc.

"Blue Velvet" and "Straw Dogs", while widely regarded as classics, still get scrutinized for their scenes....

 

[Nymphae]

Thing is, whereas violence is justified in certain situation, rape is never justifiable. It's just plain wrong. It can certainly be featured in games, as in Far Cry 3, but you'd have to be extremely careful with letting the player carry out the action. It's a bit like No Russian, except in that case Infinity Ward sort of pulled it off.

The violence in Hotline Miami is hardly justified, yeah there's a bit of story explanation for why you're doing it, but

Spoiler

that's at the very end of the very end of the game and you have to collect all the secrets letters to even see it.

Throughout most of the game, you are just killing because it's fun, and people are telling you to. I completely understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I think that murdering people is more ok in a game, simply because occasionally people have justifiable reasons for perpetrating violent acts on others. Rape and murder both seem pretty bad, we've just become way too accustomed to violent gameplay I think.

 

[Retro_]

So just to be clear because I think I'm missing something.

In the game, they are shooting a scene in a film where there is a rape occurring, the director shouts cut then gives her direction in her acting to act more 'feminine' is that right?

So basically it's more of a comment on film and film sexual violence than say an actual rape happening in the game? So really no rape even occurs?

You don't know its a movie until that point.

So as far as the player is aware the player character is killing all those people and raping that woman.

Pretty sure that wasn't an accident

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Wasn't that self defense? He's hostile.

He could, you know, scaped in his car...

 

[moltonasty]

There was male on male rape in Far Cry 3 and it bothered no one. Patricia from Kotaku even seemed kind of happy about it.

Really? I beat FC3 and don't remember that part at all...maybe my mind blocked out the traumatic memory?

Edit:Nevermind, I just remembered it's your friend who gets raped, and they never show it. Only imply it.

It wasn't depicted but pretty heavily implied, well I think it was outright stated actually

Spoiler

Buck was using your pal as a sex toy

Yea, forgot about that part. Pretty disturbing, but I can see why the HM 2 rape is worse. This time you are the one doing it.

 

[Retro_]

I would be careful going down this road. Because using the punishments meted out to rapists as a metric for how acceptable it is would lead to the sad conclusion that rape is a ok.

Good warning.

A much nicer way than I would have replied to that logic.

A sad fucking day when flawed legal systems are used as morality compasses for society

 

[OverBlood 3]

You don't know its a movie until that point.

So as far as the player is aware the player character is killing all those people and raping that woman.

Pretty sure that wasn't an accident

Well it's pretty cliche but other than that I haven't got a problem with it. I could see why that would make people uncomfortable but I guess that's the point.

 

[sn00zer]

Wtf I mentioned this like months ago when the gameplay was released and no one batted an eye....

 

[BigDes]

Really? I beat FC3 and don't remember that part at all...maybe my mind blocked out the traumatic memory?

It wasn't depicted but pretty heavily implied, well I think it was outright stated actually

Spoiler

Buck was using your pal as a sex toy

 

[faceless007]

The whole point of the rape scene is the same point the developers tried to drive home in the original: why would you play a game like this? What the fuck is wrong with you?

The first game overtly questioned why you would be complicit in mass murder just because a you were directed to do it. Whatever, people said, it's an awesome game, I love this shit.

So they made a game about the people who loved the first game, and once again said, "Look at this shit. Look how wrong this is. This is you loving monstrosities." But people still aren't getting the point, it seems. They'd rather freak out over a simulated act than think about just how toxic and heinous the people who orchestrated that simulation for their enjoyment must be. Because that would be us, metaphorically.

I bet the devs are having a good laugh about the irony of people who idolize the first game then get upset about the second game being about idolizing and exaggerating the events of the original.

If this is true, (I haven't played the game so I can't say whether I agree) it's pretty funny. It means anyone defending the scene as being desirable or a necessary part of the game is implicitly being mocked by the game itself.

 

[Sub_Level]

How is this an argument? There are numerous and expansive critiques of problematic rape scenes in all media, and definitely including Clockwork Orange.

Stop telling others what to do with their art. That's what you're trying to do when you get down to it. If you don't like it then don't consume it. Games shouldn't have to abide by what you see is fit for consumption.

Hotline Miami 2 is not advocating rape. You're not looking at it in context at all. It's allowed to represent rape in the way that it wants.

You can play Hotline Miami 2 and still maintain your views on how disgusting rape is.

 

[CornBurrito]

I'm not arguing with you, I agree. As stated above, if you could work it into the game mechanics, would it then be "ok"? What about torture in general?

Torture (and rape!) was used as a mechanic in Dishonored.

 

[SmokyDave]

I would be careful going down this road. Because using the punishments meted out to rapists as a metric for how acceptable it is would lead to the sad conclusion that rape is a ok.

It's a pointless, miserable road anyway as both are heinous crimes far beyond any sort of 'oh well, at least you weren't 'insert other crime'.

 

[DexterPepper]

He could, you know, scaped in his car...

Is that actually an option?

Just booted it up to find out. You can't get in your car until he's dead. There's no way to avoid it.

However, you do kill the guy with the briefcase who isn't hostile. But also unavoidable.

 

[BigDes]

It's a pointless, miserable road anyway as both are heinous crimes far beyond any sort of 'oh well, at least you weren't 'insert other crime'.

Indeed.

 

[Misterinenja]

If this is true, (I haven't played the game so I can't say whether I agree) it's pretty funny. It means anyone defending the scene as being desirable or a necessary part of the game is implicitly being mocked by the game itself.

Basically yes. First game did the same thing.

Mocking the player for liking it I mean.

One more thing I'm gonna say is that I think it's a good thing that the way rape is portrayed here is shocking and sparks some reactions.

I mean...

 

[gogosox8]

I found her reaction to be pretty interesting though tbh, I think that's the point of the game. To make you question why your killing all of these people.At least that what I thought when I was playing HLM 1. I didn't actually feel that great about the killing afterwards but when I was killing dudes, it was a lot of fun. I found this reaction particularly telling:

Stay with me while I dissect these feelings, feelings I do not want: I certainly want someone to blame for this betrayal, because it hurts that something I enjoy so much would be this problematic, so upsetting. I’d like to blame Sarkeesian for making me aware that this happens in the games I like – but it isn’t her fault that I am aware. And it starts to make me feel incredibly hypocritical: you liked the violence, I think. You liked, as the game says, hurting people. Why do you feel ugly now, for playing a game where your character rapes a woman? It isn’t even graphic, but implied. These are pixels, Cara. Just pixels.

I think that's exactly the point the game is trying to convey. Maybe the rape scene is a little much but I doubt she would've even noticed anything w/o it. Would she have these questions about violence and why she liked it so much if it wasn't for the rape scene? Something tells me she wouldn't have even entered her mind let alone write about it.

I also found this part to be interesting:

My agency has been removed not only from Pig Butcher, but agency was never given to the woman I now identify with – not even AI. Your arsenal has expanded. Hotline Miami manages to convey seediness well in two dimensions

I don't think you supposed to have any feelings of connection with Pig Butcher. He doesn't really have a character, its just an avatar that allows you, the player, to kill people. I think its interesting the way this fact hit her and could lead to some interesting discussion but I'm sure most people won't even read her preview and just react the thread title.

Edit: Should also point out that all forms of media use manipulation as a device for something they want to convey whether it be books, movies, tv, or games. If you have a reaction to something in whatever media your consuming, that is emotional manipulation on some level ( although some like this rape scene are more strong than others and are bound to elicit a more emotional response).

 

[elhav]

The whole point of the rape scene is the same point the developers tried to drive home in the original: why would you play a game like this? What the fuck is wrong with you?

The first game overtly questioned why you would be complicit in mass murder just because a you were directed to do it. Whatever, people said, it's an awesome game, I love this shit.

So they made a game about the people who loved the first game, and once again said, "Look at this shit. Look how wrong this is. This is you loving monstrosities." But people still aren't getting the point, it seems. They'd rather freak out over a simulated act than think about just how toxic and heinous the people who orchestrated that simulation for their enjoyment must be. Because that would be us, metaphorically.

I bet the devs are having a good laugh about the irony of people who idolize the first game then get upset about the second game being about idolizing and exaggerating the events of the original.

That's a very interesting post.

I wonder if the devs think people thought their game had a meaning beyond the "kill everything because it's fun" gig that's in most videogames. I guess if for you the game was just supposed to be mindless fun, then a rape scene can be a bit too much. If the first game made you doubt your morality and such, then a rape scene might be expected to increase your doubt.

 

[bj00rn_]

Murder in games is a more abstract act that fits within a well-understood and familiar theme seen in literature and film and even gaming prior to video games. Rape has no value in entertainment such as gaming.

Yep, that factor is definitely in play here. We are used to not immerse ourselves into murder depicted in this context, it's all skimming on the surface, abstract as you say, business as usual. Sexual violence however, it wakes up deeper, more personal, and darker thoughts, sometimes forcing a general feeling of empathy - Even in "just a cartoon", it transcends that into something, like I said; more personal. So it isn't always logical to shrug it off in a comparison like "look, he's gauging his eyes out, blowing his brains out, killing thousands of people, but then you react to a simple rape scene??". It just doesn't work like that psychologically.

Disclaimer: I am not judging the developer, nor his/hers "art"-context here. I'm simply spinning some general points.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I'm not arguing with you, I agree. As stated above, if you could work it into the game mechanics, would it then be "ok"? What about torture in general?

No, never. Rape and torture won't ever be considered in a positive light. Someone who stops (by killing) the right people for the right reasons can be considered okay or even heroic, but can be key to defeating the bad guy regime or averting greater scale disaster. Rape is about forced domination in real life, the kind that scars psychologically as well as physically. Rape in games only goes so far because games are inherently limited in their current inability to carry enough of meaningful reality to make it stick, to handle a personal tragedy with the right care. The act will never carry any positive consequence. Games are still, when you boil them down, very simple no matter how you dress them up or how they might aspire to greater things that deal with the human condition. Shootbang, board games, sports, and beating the bad guys.

 

[GameGuru59]

Yes, after killing hundreds of people, the mass murderer rapes a woman. Totally unrealistic! The game also makes you brutally kill tons of people, but the author was suddenly put off because she was forced by the game (as games usually do) to rape a character?

 

[theRizzle]

Yes, after killing hundreds of people, the mass murderer rapes a woman. Totally unrealistic! The game also makes you brutally kill tons of people, but the author was suddenly put off because he was forced by the game (as games usually do) to rape a character?

It's a she? Obviously you didn't read the article.

 

[BigDes]

It's a she? Obviously you didn't read the article.

Not reading won't stop me getting angry about people having opinions!

 

[freenudemacusers]

It's a she? Obviously you didn't read the article.

scrolling through this thread it seems like maybe 10% of the posters have actually read the article. no time for that though, we gotta draw lines in the sand and reverse-faux-outrage.

 

[apana]

Comparing rape and murder and asking which one is worse is silly. Obviously people prefer to survive and be alive but that doesn't mean introducing sexual violence into games is a good idea. We condone killing under certain conditions, as in war, but rape and molestation is never supposed to be appropriate in any condition. There is an element of hypocrisy involved sure but that doesn't mean it is right to cross that line. If the developers are using the scene to make a point about hypocrisy then I guess you can give them and the writer credit for starting a debate but if this is an opening into more sexual violence into games then it is wrong and I have no problem with people being opposed to it.

 

[GameGuru59]

I'm watching the YT video. Edit incoming.

 

[mr teaspoon]

The whole point of the rape scene is the same point the developers tried to drive home in the original: why would you play a game like this? What the fuck is wrong with you?

The first game overtly questioned why you would be complicit in mass murder just because a you were directed to do it. Whatever, people said, it's an awesome game, I love this shit.

So they made a game about the people who loved the first game, and once again said, "Look at this shit. Look how wrong this is. This is you loving monstrosities." But people still aren't getting the point, it seems. They'd rather freak out over a simulated act than think about just how toxic and heinous the people who orchestrated that simulation for their enjoyment must be. Because that would be us, metaphorically.

I bet the devs are having a good laugh about the irony of people who idolize the first game then get upset about the second game being about idolizing and exaggerating the events of the original.

I disagree. I mean, in 2013 I feel like it's a very tired angle if the devs really were going for 'look at how entertained you are at this!' You could say that about any violent media going back decades - 'you're watching a World War II film! You actually want to watch war!'

Hotline Miami isn't some social experiment, it's a game first and foremost. Whatever fucked up crime-ridden violent world it's wrapped in, it has to be fun to play. Go ahead and re-skin the game with Sesame Street characters throwing cupcakes at each other and giving people hugs rather than knives in the back, the core mechanics still work. Once that work is done, the dev is free to play any kind of narrative tricks they want to, but the idea that it's all just about holding up a mirror to the player doesn't hold water IMO.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Lot of people in here who clearly understand rape is different than murder, but still apparently insist on discussing how apples should be less offensive than oranges.

The disparity in the nature of the two kinds of violence is precisely the issue here.

Certainly, in-context, isn't the point that you are playing a psychopath? It's not a matter of whether a person like this wouldn't rape a victim, but it is a matter of whether throwing rape into the mix is a bit too far beyond the scope of the context. In other words, it is probably defensible thematically, but if the actual context delineates the scope of what is justifiable, then anything beyond that scope is it just pandering indulgence.

This is exactly why things can feel out of place or over-the-top in narratives even if thematically they make sense.

Rape is a hot-button issue as it well should be, but it is completely justifiable to be present given the right context and would not bother someone who is understandably led there by the narrative. Having not played the game, I can't make a judgement towards that, but if this is the issue, then eliminating this from the game isn't a matter of censorship but craftsmanship.

In that event, I'm still not saying they should or shouldn't do anything to their game, but I will certainly judge that same content very differently.

What I am saying is that if something lacks significant justification to avoid coming across as much tangential and distracting as potentially offensive then it simply exists for nothing but the sake of being indulgent to its creator rather than its audience.

It's not enough to say that's always a good thing because sometimes you get a Kubrick film out of that sorta deal, because sometimes you also get Troll 2.

 

[bj00rn_]

Yes, after killing hundreds of people, the mass murderer rapes a woman. Totally unrealistic! The game also makes you brutally kill tons of people, but the author was suddenly put off because he was forced by the game (as games usually do) to rape a character?

I think we all understand the point of the comparison, and in some ways it may be a valid comparison. But it just doesn't work like that, there's more context behind it. Murder and some types of violence in the entertainment industry has always had its "amnesty", and people are somewhat used to it. Sexual violence and torture is not in the same position, and it isn't always comparable as it perhaps is outside that context.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying anything about this particular rape scene or the moral of its developer. This is purely general.

 

[Toxi]

Stop telling others what to do with their art.

Bioware employee?