How many games let your adult character beat little kids? It's not an accident that little kids tend to be immortal in games like Fallout 3 (ya, I know they patched that in a few days after release) when you can kill pretty much anyone else.
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
- Thread starter Dawg
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How many games let your adult character beat little kids? It's not an accident that little kids tend to be immortal in games like Fallout 3 (ya, I know they patched that in a few days after release) when you can kill pretty much anyone else.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Maybe we could make an Uncharted where Drake rapes everyone instead of shoots them, since it's apparently the same thing.
is this woman not allowed to have an opinion?
she explains why she feels that way and acknowledges that it's a bit hypocritical, but hey that's how people's feelings work
everyone is more sensitive to some things than others, you can't just say that she's a bad person or stupid because violence doesn't get to her the same way rape does
i liked the first game and even without rape scenes it made me feel a bit gross and weirded out, so it's entirely possible this will fit it perfectly but i don't expect every single person in the world to react to it the same way i do
she explains why she feels that way and acknowledges that it's a bit hypocritical, but hey that's how people's feelings work
everyone is more sensitive to some things than others, you can't just say that she's a bad person or stupid because violence doesn't get to her the same way rape does
i liked the first game and even without rape scenes it made me feel a bit gross and weirded out, so it's entirely possible this will fit it perfectly but i don't expect every single person in the world to react to it the same way i do
Sounds about right.
mentallyinept
Banned
Exactly.
After watching the scene and reading the article, I would say the scene in the game accomplished what it set out to do. This scene may be too much for certain people to handle without being emotionally disturbed, and that's OK.
This has personally happened to me, albeit in other media. There are movies that I simply don't watch anymore due to certain scenes and their effect on me.
To me, this is a sign of a maturing medium of artistic presentation.
Where's your context?
I understand that rape is something that is unconditionally offensive. It's supposed to be, and quite frankly, this game appears to be doing it's intended job.
I personally think so.
Spehornoob
Member
Context apparently doesn't matter when someone's feels are being infringed upon.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Haha sorry, my response was also with the game in mind, because none of the violence in the original can be justified. Maybe the dead of the hooker but ironically, thats the only time in which the game gives you the choice not to kill.
Jacksonlee
Member
pants
Member
I think this is the best way to put it.
Kenshin001
Member
Funny you say that, I felt bad when I murdered one of the people in the phone building. Automatically assumed they were going to attack me. I've murdered a lot of innocent people in video games like GTA4 though, shooting them, running them over etc. Rape just seems a kind of torture, a cruel act of degradation that doesn't sit well with me.
AngelsDontBurn
Banned
This is what I ask myself all the time. Anytime people blame video games for anything, it's a hard question to ignore. 95% of the blame that is placed exists in other forms of media, however it gets away with it. Personally I would assume anything that is done with real / live actors is 100% worse than what is seen or done in a video game. But of course there are people that honestly think that because content exists in a video game, it's going to make every player want to do it in real life.
Ugh.
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
I think it adressed the post I quoted. I had this discussion too many times in real life. "Come on, she wasn't raped, this is a rape: *insert description of a brutal rape in a war zone*.
Definatory power, hello?
This topic in games (or sometimes in movies) makes me sick. An no, it doesn't matter at all if it makes sense for the character you are controlling and if he is not displayed as the hero.
A huge percentage of the possible audience is sensible to sexual violence, because it is or was a part of their lifes.
Something male game designers aren't aware of, and their audience neither as it seems.
I would be willing to bet that more people fight in wars and see similar levels of violence in HM than women filming scenes in movies where women are raped.
I would really like an explanation of why rape scenes are acceptable in movies but not games if someone could. I do not understand why this is such a terrible thing for a game to do but it's acceptable in movies.
MackAttack
Banned
Can we please go with a don't like - don't buy policy for everything?
She's absolutely entitled to her opinion. She has an article on the internet about it.
Game 'journalists', making the game industry look worse one comment at a time...
And as I said on another thread, I hope this 'sexism' shit a lot of people try to find where there's nothing stops eventually. It's getting too tired.
Not saying it shouldn't be talked about when the game IS actually being sexist, but most of the times people are reaching way too far.
And as I said on another thread, I hope this 'sexism' shit a lot of people try to find where there's nothing stops eventually. It's getting too tired.
Not saying it shouldn't be talked about when the game IS actually being sexist, but most of the times people are reaching way too far.
I think it hits closer to home for her because it happens to a female. She's basically just explaining how she feels about it.
Yeah, pretty much this.
Spehornoob
Member
But then how will everyone get their time on the soapbox for attention?
Well said. Particularly the point about other media -- I never thought about it before, but I don't think I've played any game that made me uncomfortable with playing it again due to its content, while that has happened with other media.
I'm not saying that rape isn't rape.
You're saying that rape hits harder than violence in video games because the violence portrayed is so rare in life but rape/sexual violence so common, but we're talking about a video game where a women is shot, bleeding out and violently raped, and you're lumping in being groped on a bus in the 33% statistic. They're not comparable. It'd be like me saying violence in video games hits hard because xx% many people are subject to violence but in that percent I include someone breaking your hand in a bar fight when the game is dealing with being stabbed to death.
People seem so jaded and sensitive about anything involving females and game controversies, that it has become impossible to discuss anything of this nature on GAF.
Proved by the fact that so many here jumped the gun without even reading the article.
Immediately becomes a us vs them stand off.
Let me say this and leave it at that.
Oliver Stone did this in 1994 with Natural Born Killers and won a Golden Globe.
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo did this and won nearly every independent film award on the circuit.
Be it player agency or inherent motive, if you want games to grow as a medium, stuff like this is going to have to be explored. And if you're getting upset about this particular instance, you are not going to know what to do with yourself the moment someone interested in really telling a very real story is going to do when they explore the same territory.
Oliver Stone did this in 1994 with Natural Born Killers and won a Golden Globe.
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo did this and won nearly every independent film award on the circuit.
Be it player agency or inherent motive, if you want games to grow as a medium, stuff like this is going to have to be explored. And if you're getting upset about this particular instance, you are not going to know what to do with yourself the moment someone interested in really telling a very real story is going to do when they explore the same territory.
Call me crazy but nothing I view fazes me.
If its real on the news or I seen it in real life it bothers me. But any artistic expression can provoke thought but htere is no line that offends me. I realize that its fake. A figment of someones imagination The only line that disgusts me is when these heinous acts really happen.
If its real on the news or I seen it in real life it bothers me. But any artistic expression can provoke thought but htere is no line that offends me. I realize that its fake. A figment of someones imagination The only line that disgusts me is when these heinous acts really happen.
AngelsDontBurn
Banned
Easier said than done unfortunately. I personally think it would be the best road to take, but people just gotta let their voice be heard.
AkimbO_Arcana
Banned
I would completely understand if a person who witnessed 20 people beimg slaughtered in a room in 2 minutes would feel unconfortable with HM.
no one's say it's not acceptable or it shouldn't happen or the game should be canned and deleted
she played it and had a bad reaction then wrote about it on the internet, and that's fine
it's a hands on preview
she played it and wrote about how it made her feel
Yep. We should also turn our nose up at great auteurs like Stanley Kubrick and Sergio Leone, because they include rape, violence, and misogyny in their films.
I don't understand why games should shy away from subjects that are problems or themes that exist in the real world. I think critics and their desire to guide creators in making more inclusive or less games that make you as the player uncomfortable is the wrong way to approach criticism.
If you want to be disgusted by a scene in a film, that's fine, but to say you are betrayed by that film-maker or artist and you are campaigning for something to be removed from said art, you are trying to be a censor.
I would like to return to a point I mentioned in another thread. This anger and betrayal reminds me of people's visceral reactions to gangster rap, culturally-jarring films, and ground-breaking art in general. It's like watching someone feel betrayed when the clean-cut teen pop stars of the 1960s music turned to sexual and drug-related themes. Looking back on that backlash, we are embarrassed by it.
I fear that journalists and critics will try and some already have tried to take the form of the last bastions of values and morality. There are enough fundamentalists trying to hamper the artistic freedoms of game makers.
I could see two reasons:
-rape scenes in film often have females as part of the creation process (whether it be in writing, acting or direction).
-the viewer of a film is not actively controlling the rapist.
anexanhume
Member
Yup. I think we're still stuck on the idea that games are only games and only meant to be fun. Now they're trying to venture into art and provide experiences, which are potentially not happy ones, and people are upset that the interaction and control is not given at that moment. However, if that agency is given at that moment, either the narrative has to fork and both possibilities considered (adding budget and potentially ruining the narrative), or the writer/artist is boxed into a safe corner for fear of broaching uncomfortable subjects.
From what it sounds like, the game is not glorifying or celebrating it. It's a tough situation because I see a lot of smart, logical people coming to an emotional conclusion on these issues.
It's the same cognitive dissonance around "ludonarrative dissonance" where people are upset they kill hundreds of enemies but expect 20 hours of gameplay. Killing bad guys is cheap compared to cut scenes or cinematic sequences, and there is the mix of action and puzzling to be balanced too.
Nah, as much as i think she's getting worked up over bullshit, critiques are a good thing.
What is critical analysis?
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Yes, spot on. It's not advocating it but I've seen it in movies far more than games and it's for the "artistic vision of the movies message".
Damn, that is pretty heavy, but it seems to follow the surreal and disturbing tone of the rest of the game. Hotline Miami 1 already had plenty of fucked up scenes where I hardly agreed with my characters actions.
However can I also see why someone would get offended by this.
spandexmonkey
Banned
I can't say with certainty since I didn't grow up in that era, but I imagine that Hollywood underwent similar growing pains when the violence and sex (rape or otherwise) depicted became more graphic. Initial outrage by critics and some audiences, but with time, art won out.
it becomes "us vs them" because everyone on this board immediately goes on the defensive and cries endlessly about the feminazi conspiracy trying to censor the world and keep us from having fun
Air Zombie Meat
Member
It's irritating, yeah. And all the people that apparently want to see games tackle rape should be welcoming the conversation because it sure as hell isn't going to happen without one.
She wrote a good article and explained her thoughts and feelings well.
I just watched the scene on YouTube and it's a bit odd, but it's nothing grotesque or over the line, from my point of view. In fact it just looks a little silly in that Hotline Miami art style.
The fact it takes control away from the player is probably enough for me, and the game aims to portray some pretty fucked up things, anyway, I hope they don't remove it because of a bad press.
I just watched the scene on YouTube and it's a bit odd, but it's nothing grotesque or over the line, from my point of view. In fact it just looks a little silly in that Hotline Miami art style.
The fact it takes control away from the player is probably enough for me, and the game aims to portray some pretty fucked up things, anyway, I hope they don't remove it because of a bad press.
TimeEffect
Member
Seeing that it's a cutscene for a movie the characters are making in-game (?) I don't see the issue.
That could happen in a hollywood film and no one would bat an eye.
I have to imagine the art-style and thematics of the game makes the game's portrayal of rape seem juvenile, which in turn targets a more improper (?) audience.
I don't know how that would affect me as a 12 year old playing the game.
That could happen in a hollywood film and no one would bat an eye.
I have to imagine the art-style and thematics of the game makes the game's portrayal of rape seem juvenile, which in turn targets a more improper (?) audience.
I don't know how that would affect me as a 12 year old playing the game.
The statement you quoted wasn't arguing the defintion or qualification of rape. What it was arguing is that there are varying degrees of severity/violence involved in rape, which is really undeniably true. It's always rape, but not all rape is the same.
When I look at this game, it's through the lens of extremes that most people never encounter. And it never glorifies anything.
The topic makes me uncomfortable too. I think it should. And again, I think that's the point.
Road of Ease
Member
What is this bullshit about complaining about "rape" and not complaining about "violence"? Rape IS an act of violence.
ok, just cut it I guess? I mean the .5 seconds of that scene don't really add anything
point me to the line in that article where she says the content should be removed from the game, or that the game shouldn't come out
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