K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
It's an absolutely disgusting scene.
Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
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NinjamicWZ
Banned
It's not real.
Interfectum
Member
You are actively controlling a mass murderer though. You stab people as they are crawling on the floor. You splash their blood on the wall with great joy. It is really that crazy that maybe that same character probably would not mind raping someone?
VARIA
Member
Excuse my ignorance.
I wonder how she feels about films like Clockwork Orange or Irreversible ?
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Oh goodie, another thread where people dismiss other people's concerns and feelings toward a piece of media as bullshit and unimportant.
Suddenly to have a single opinion about something we must know how this author feels about everything ever, and if she's a hypocrite then it destroys her entire point.
Suddenly to have a single opinion about something we must know how this author feels about everything ever, and if she's a hypocrite then it destroys her entire point.
I'm kind of surprised at the amount of people replying to this saying they see nothing wrong. It's one thing to not be offended by it, but how can people not understand how this might make somebody uncomfortable?
Rape is still rape no matter what "context" you put it in. In fact it's almost made worse here that it's done with such nonchalance; as if filming a rape scene is something that happens every day.
I think the writers of this game should have asked themselves whether the inclusion of the 3 seconds of animation really improved the game. I honestly don't think it does. When I see this clip, I'm not excited to play this game, it certainly doesn't make me want to give them my money either. I'd rather support writers and developers who take a mature approach, even if their game is about being over-the-top violent.
We've seen this song and dance before though. Articles of outrage causes developers to change the content and compromise their vision.
It really depends on context. Making you perform a rape isn't really "exploring" adult themes. It's making something horrible into a game mechanic. The adult part of adult themes means more than just titillating or sadistic (or should at least.)
It's all about the context so I'd like to see the actual scene in question to make a judgement about it.
I hate this argument so much. Not within the context of this topic necessarily, but within the context of anything.
If it's done right, I don't give two shits who was involved in making it.
Meanwhile, half of GAF explodes over Breath of Fire 6 being on the iOS.
Holy shit lol
I don't know what you mean by double standards, but i agree that the scene seems to perfectly illustrate the point that violence has become completely thought-less and shock-less in the medium.
I think that scene greatly puts everything in the game into context, changing the perspective you look at the rest of the events taking place in it.
Sounds brilliant to me.
Of course i'll have to play the game to say for sure.
Also i said i would've bailed out but i didn't, lol.
It being nonchalant in the game's world, doesn't mean was inserted in the game nonchalantly, infact, it seems to have a massive impact on how you read the rest of the game.
So she should keep her mouth shut then?
Censoring is ok when it stops people being mean over videogames?
So you agree it accomplishes what it set out to do?
Perhaps those rape scenes make her feel uncomfortable too?
She's not calling for HM2 to be censored or anything. She wrote a preview for the game and wrote about how it made her feel.
people shouldn't take potential negative reactions into account when creating something?
if a designer has a really good reason for including highly controversial or objectionable content in their game, it should absolutely be there, but i think it's always important to keep things like this in mind
Jacksonlee
Member
it adds plenty. how else am i going to get grossed out by it?
Someone had to fall for the bait.
Just watched through the Rape vs. Murder Jimquisition, and as good as he usually is, even that didn't do anything to change what I see as a hypocritical dynamic of this criticism, especially with it coming against a Hotline Miami game and the act in question being completely fictional as opposed to the real murderous insanity of the first game.
"Betrayed by something I loved"? Really? She idolized the brutal psychopathy of the original (which explicitly questioned the player's moral compass for doing so), and when the sequel goes even further in driving home just how wrong and morally reprehensible it is to do that, now she gets offended? It's supposed to be awful and uncomfortable, but the developers obviously wanted it to be an introspective discomfort, not this surface-level inflammatory auto-response.
I generally like Cara's writing, but I don't have a "WHOOSH *point flys over person head*" gif suitable enough for this. Because it's either that, or some click-baiting false indignation.
Just watched through the Rape vs. Murder Jimquisition, and as good as he usually is, even that didn't do anything to change what I see as a hypocritical dynamic of this criticism, especially with it coming against a Hotline Miami game and the act in question being completely fictional as opposed to the real murderous insanity of the first game.
"Betrayed by something I loved"? Really? She idolized the brutal psychopathy of the original (which explicitly questioned the player's moral compass for doing so), and when the sequel goes even further in driving home just how wrong and morally reprehensible it is to do that, now she gets offended? It's supposed to be awful and uncomfortable, but the developers obviously wanted it to be an introspective discomfort, not this surface-level inflammatory auto-response.
I generally like Cara's writing, but I don't have a "WHOOSH *point flys over person head*" gif suitable enough for this. Because it's either that, or some click-baiting false indignation.
If a developer actually compromises their artistic vision over an internet article, I seriously doubt they had much confidence in that vision in the first place.
Besides, I think the developers enjoy the publicity.
Gotcha haha. I actually just watched the scene and honestly, it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be because of the context of the situation, with it being on the set of a movie and the fact that you don't have direct control over the situation. But still, this is one of those topics that you have to tread lightly on.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I changed the title so that people might respond as though the author has a more nuanced, reflective, contemplative position than "GAMES BAD CENSOR THEM DESTROY THE GAMERS HOBBY". I hope this encourages more spirited consideration of the issue being discussed.
It's not always up to the developer.
EDIT: Making a general statement here. I recognize that HM is an indie game.
Still doesn't mean it never should be in games. I'm sure designers are aware of it but luckily there are still people who stick to their vision and don't care if someone gets offended.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I'm mad because I was spoiled about it, I don't give a fuck if there's rape. Anyways, this will just get the game more media attention and sales.
Gaming should be able to tackle adult themes if done properly, and Hotline Miami's freaking good.
Day 1
Gaming should be able to tackle adult themes if done properly, and Hotline Miami's freaking good.
Day 1
Interfectum
Member
Depends on if that single article grabs a ton of other headlines leading content distributors to remove the game from their stores to avoid any potential boycotts.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
Once again I'm disappointed that this is what is considered controversial. That scene in the video set her in a tizzy? That's a pretty sad reaction to have.
Who ever said it was the same thing?
Also, while rape is a terrible thing, its not a very good means to an end. I doubt you could effectively move an action story along with that, unless you wanted to make a game about a serial rapist.
As I'm sure you know, the reason murder works so well in video games is because it removes obstacles from the players path.
Net_Wrecker
Member
The problem is that this isn't rape. It's implied rape that IMMEDIATELY steps back from the edge in a manner that's very clearly designed to elicit a response to the rape implication had it happened. Discussion about how that specific moment made the person feel, or how that person would've felt had the act actually taken place, or how it made the person feel vs. the constant violence that is Hotline Miami are all well and fine. It becomes an issue when people start slamming the game for something that didn't happen, and instead seem like they can't control they're own emotions to properly criticize the experience.
Feeling "betrayed" seems like overkill especially in the context of what actually happens. "Disgusted" is okay, IN THE MOMENT, but after the director yells cut, it's time for the person to take a step back and think about why they felt so uncomfortable in that moment, but totally fine KILLING enemies in brutal displays of violence.
Portugeezer
Member
Day one buy from me confirmed.
Edit: just saw the gameplay, yeah that is fucking bad, do you play as that character all the time or is it some "meanwhile in" moment?
Edit: just saw the gameplay, yeah that is fucking bad, do you play as that character all the time or is it some "meanwhile in" moment?
I agree. Someone should be entitled to their criticism of something. I disagree with the idea that this game or these types of themes are "crossing a line" as Michael French of CVG tweeted out.
Treating this game and this type of theme as a controversy to rally around and condemn due to their inclusion at all in this medium is messed up.
in the case of a game like this and other extremely small indie efforts it sure as hell is
i do like that people call her a hypocrite for not complaining about the violence (which she also does in the article) but as soon as someone questions excessive violence in games we get weeping and gnashing of teeth over that as well
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
"probes limits of player morality" is pretty fucking generous.
ThroneZwei
Banned
In a game that encourages you to creatively and to use your own imagination in killing, shooting, cutting, smashing in heads and killing others, this seems like a nit picky thing. Granted if the article was about the violence itself, how would GAF be responding to it? "Don't play the game if it doesnt' suit your taste?"
Whilst she has her concerns about the rape scene, well written out, that's completely fine. The game isn't for her, even if for the literally 2-3 second scene. The worst thing you can do however, is to remove it. To not portray the rape, even if it's part of the story, is a form of a censorship that discourages people to talk about it. We can pretend the world is all nice and flowers, but unfortunately things like this happen every day(albeit not in the same context.
We're talking about it, aren't we? Talking about the evils of rape, talking about whether it should be portrayed, whether it was a graphic or not representation of it? We are literally at a forum about it(..Using the word forum in the classical sense, not all of GAF) and we are discussing it.
Whether or not the rape scene is 'right', whether it's 'art', whether it's overblown, or justified, the fact that we're discussing it is a powerful idea that something can create such a discussion. Just my thoughts on my situation..on the one hand, yes, I personally think she's overreacting, but on the other hand I'm glad she made this article so we could all discuss about the scene, the actions, and the intention behind it, likewise for the article.
On my personal thoughts-I know games aren't reality. They're like movies, books, art-Something to look at and experience. I don't have a problem with the scene. If it has context in the game, which it seems like it does from the bit linked here, then it's fine. As long as it wasn't a random thing you can do to female characters in the game, in which case yeah it would be too much..but for that 3 second scene I feel it is a bit overblown.
Whilst she has her concerns about the rape scene, well written out, that's completely fine. The game isn't for her, even if for the literally 2-3 second scene. The worst thing you can do however, is to remove it. To not portray the rape, even if it's part of the story, is a form of a censorship that discourages people to talk about it. We can pretend the world is all nice and flowers, but unfortunately things like this happen every day(albeit not in the same context.
We're talking about it, aren't we? Talking about the evils of rape, talking about whether it should be portrayed, whether it was a graphic or not representation of it? We are literally at a forum about it(..Using the word forum in the classical sense, not all of GAF) and we are discussing it.
Whether or not the rape scene is 'right', whether it's 'art', whether it's overblown, or justified, the fact that we're discussing it is a powerful idea that something can create such a discussion. Just my thoughts on my situation..on the one hand, yes, I personally think she's overreacting, but on the other hand I'm glad she made this article so we could all discuss about the scene, the actions, and the intention behind it, likewise for the article.
On my personal thoughts-I know games aren't reality. They're like movies, books, art-Something to look at and experience. I don't have a problem with the scene. If it has context in the game, which it seems like it does from the bit linked here, then it's fine. As long as it wasn't a random thing you can do to female characters in the game, in which case yeah it would be too much..but for that 3 second scene I feel it is a bit overblown.
it crosses the line for her, it doesn't for you and lots of people here. that's fine.
nobody is rallying to boycott or censor this game
Why are you treating a complex subject like it is a simple yes/no equation? It is entirely possible she wasn't offended by the depiction of rape in other mediums. For a whole host of reasons this does not make her anywhere near a hypocrite.
Revolver is small and indie, I doubt they answer to someone.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
I'd say that we are, and that part of "exploring" a theme is hearing both positive and negative reactions to it.
There are going to be people who have a negative response and say "this should not be in a game" but there will also be people who express their negative reactions subjectively, describing their emotional response and reasoning, rather than simply saying "i'm offended, this shouldn't be!"
Products do not have an innate right to be profitable. There are plenty of artistic visions that don't make a penny.
Also, as said before, it's an indie title. It's unlikely it's going to be canned.
Yes, that's what i meant (in case it wasn't clear).
It'd be much better to read the article and have a discussion about art, the implications of such a scene etc etc, instead of having 20 posts of "lul, get over it".
How does that even function as a reply to my statement?
Interfectum
Member
Relevance to... pretty much anything?
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
The problem I have with this sort of comment is that every time someone reacts to a piece of media in a way like this, everybody else has to freak out about the implications like YOU'RE NOT MAKING GAMES ART and YOU'RE CENSORSHIP and WELL NOW IT'S ALL DONE GOOFED like they're under attack or something.
Like, can we not just have people perceiving media honestly? Do we not ask for that from games writers? Perhaps this sort of conversation is a step closer to adult criticism of games as art as opposed to what we've passed off as journalism in the past.
This is the sort of writing I champion.
Like, can we not just have people perceiving media honestly? Do we not ask for that from games writers? Perhaps this sort of conversation is a step closer to adult criticism of games as art as opposed to what we've passed off as journalism in the past.
This is the sort of writing I champion.
I can see PC Gamer's real issue though.
Instead of you seeing this scene in the privacy of your own home, suddenly you're surrounded by bunches of people watching you while your 8bit character "rapes" another 8bit character.
Since I haven't played the game myself, couldn't it be assumed that they're filming a sex scene that is rough? Nothing is wrong with kinky sex, so does the other character say no? Does she say to stop? Does he kill her after sex?
I mean, there is only hearsay to go on, we don't really know what's actually happening in the game.
Instead of you seeing this scene in the privacy of your own home, suddenly you're surrounded by bunches of people watching you while your 8bit character "rapes" another 8bit character.
Since I haven't played the game myself, couldn't it be assumed that they're filming a sex scene that is rough? Nothing is wrong with kinky sex, so does the other character say no? Does she say to stop? Does he kill her after sex?
I mean, there is only hearsay to go on, we don't really know what's actually happening in the game.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Your inability to connect fictional depictions to real emotions sounds like a deficit. People who can do so are the normal ones. Extreme outrage isn't helpful to a discussion, but alleging that an entire perspective is merely outrage junkies getting their fix is disingenuous.
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