Support NeoGAF

[Kleegamefan]

Again, as is the case with all BD-ROM players, PS3 will have a built in scaler for selectable resolution video output...

This, per the BD-ROM spec according to RichardD when he was at Panasonic Hollywood Labs(he now works with amirm at Microsoft)...


P.S. Hiya nAo

 

[antipode]

That's awesome DeanoC/Nostromo. The RGB colorspace does seem like kind of a relic of the display device - something closer to HSV or HSL makes more sense for video games.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Pana,
framebuffer stores data in a different colorspace(and consequently data format).
It's no different then FP16 (or other framebuffer formats) in that regard, you compute stuff in shaders in FP32, and convert to actual FB format on framebuffer reads/writes.

Ok, just thought I'd ask.

With the FB being in INT8 format and benefiting of standard MSAA and texture blending, I wonder how much are features such as FP16 texture filtering and blending will get used (of course you migth set-up temporary render targets in FP format for off-screen surfaces, not talking about value rappresentation in the shaders, just wondering if that is worth the extra space in the VRAM) or if it is easier to keep all screen (FB and BB) and off-screen surfaces at the same precision when stored in VRAM.

It looks fine and dandy though : HDR + MSAA + TSAA (will you guys enable it or do you find you prefer such feature to be turned off ?)as well as low bandwidth penalty and low VRAM usage.

 

[Vince]

So, I gather, you've divided the data which was stored in FP16 into two quasi-subdivisions: a color space which is stored in INT8, and (I'm thinking must be inheriently) isometric to the data stored in FP16, and a lumonsity function? So, in effect, it's a form of data "compression" in that you're trading off a literal description for computation and a compact code?

If I'm thinking about this right, the whole ideology of what you're implimenting seems alot cleaner than FP16 or FP32.

 

[Nostromo]

Yep Vince, colors are moved to another space where we have 2 main components: one is representing luminance and the other one is representing the color itself (don't worry, it's not YUV, it would no better to use RGBE cause you don't have normalized color components in that case ),,even though those 2 quantities are deeply interconntected.
Moreover the second component is someway stretched and clamped in a way that should let us more bits for colors that the human eye can actually see.
It works so well that I also evaluated a 24 bit per pixel version that in the end was not used cause the quality we expect was not there in some cases
(but I have some ideas to improve it..it would be nice to have a spare color channel to store some additional info per pixel )

 

[mrklaw]

Again, as is the case with all BD-ROM players, PS3 will have a built in scaler for selectable resolution video output...

This, per the BD-ROM spec according to RichardD when he was at Panasonic Hollywood Labs(he now works with amirm at Microsoft)...


P.S. Hiya nAo

doesn't mean PS3 games will use that. Perfectly possible to fit Bluray video playback by using the power and memory to brute force a fit to the scaling requirements. power/memory that games would ordinarily use.

Still, I do expect you'll be right.

 

[Kleegamefan]

doesn't mean PS3 games will use that. Perfectly possible to fit Bluray video playback by using the power and memory to brute force a fit to the scaling requirements. power/memory that games would ordinarily use.

Still, I do expect you'll be right.

So you are suggesting a software driven scaling solution for BD movies running on CELL?


Hmmmm...I never thought about that....

I suppose that is one solution Sony might use rather than having a dedicated scaler in hardware, which would add cost.....much cheaper to just have CELL do video scaling via software as well as all media decoding tasks.....

One of the advantages PS3 will have over other Blu-ray players is SCEI dont have to use dedicated codec decoders (VC1,AVC HP, MPEG2, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Digital Lossless, dts-HD) since CELL is ideal for those duties anyway....

I do agree that if SCEI use a CELL-based scaling solution, that might not be ideal for scaling game resolutions since you would want as much CPU cycles used for games, rather than scaling duites....

We will just have to wait and see :/

 

[bigNman]

with ease.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Nostromo, that's good to hear. From what I've been gathering I didn't know that an INT8 process could fundamentally replace FP16, being such a different approach. But that's good to hear. So if this is true, why is HDR using FP in the first place then? If INT is good enough, why go all the way beyond that to using FP?

As for the rest of you fuck heads, your typical circle jerk is no more apparent than in this thread. I leave for a fun night out, and you guys do your usual routine. Good job. Some of you people need to get some fresh air, go outside for once in your life.....

Did you see how Nostromo replied to my remark??

I can assure you the results are the same.
At first I'd say the same thing as you're saying here (no same results since we're using less bits per pixel) but you have to understand that's not the case for a very simple reason, FP16 is not an efficient way sto store a high dynamic range color.
So there's no 'imitation' at all, it's just a different way to store a color, that's it.
Even in the world of special fx and offline rendering they have several HDR storate formats, there's no 'true' way to do it.
There are tons of different color spaces out there, and there's a reason for that

Notice, the oversight? I used general knowledge to question INT8, and I got a proper response in detail clarifying my questioning. Unlike the rest of you who say jack shit, then think you're all high almighty as usual. Bunch of fucking sheep.

Notice the typical fanboys avoid these types of threads like the plague cause they don't know anything. Once someone knowledgeable posts something, then the fanboys pile in for the circle jerk to reinforce their "OMG we teh bestest again" like they're always right. So amusing, yet proves how pathetic they are. You guys seriosly must get off on this, so I won't stop you cause it seems to be your only form of true happiness in your otherwise worthless pathetic lives.

This will be interesting.

Will tenacious-v now re-enter the thread to argue with nostromo???

place your bets people

Hmmm, went out on a Saturday night, come back to a fanboy circle jerk session.... how incredibly predictable of the usual group.

Sure it is, now Tenacious is going to start having to dig himself out of the hole he just jumped in.

I love your lack of input into this thread until Nostromo posted then you switch into high troll gear, typical of you.

That should be enjoyable to see. He either tries to justify what he said or avoids this thread all together now....

I'm not justifying anything. I questioned something, Nostromo clarifyed on it. Difference between me and your type is you get off on this type of shit, and I got an answer to a question. But keep thinking what you like.

Tenacious? Tenacious?

Ah standard troll.. Jumping in for the kidney shot from behind. You're so cute.

No need to quote the rest of your guys' posts, it's just the usual. I love it how you guys don't even post about the issue in question. Just OMG Nostromo said something, attack attack attack. Seriously, you people are fucking sad.

You guys actually think I care about some console war? Think Company A is somehow better than company B? You guys are so immature. I buy all the consoles, and enjoy them all tremendously. So while all of you bitch and moan over what game is on what platform, or how this sucks cause it's not your favorite company, I'm playing all the games and consoles you guys are bitching about. This thread brought me to question how a next gen console would use an INT method over a FP that most other companies use, which is a pretty honest and understandable question, yet your sorry excuses turn it into Me=antiPS3. You guys are plain and simple, fucking douchbags. I guess since I don't inherently worship the ground Sony walks on, I'm somehow anti Sony. Reality of the situation is, these companies don't run my life, like they seem to for the rest of you. Company A's success doesn't make my life better cause they're getting more money. It doesn't affect my life at all. So I honestly don't understand all you fanboys, letting this shit rule you. I guess you're just.... well fanboys. Never had a better definition of the word, then the example people in this thread.

But yes, let's get back to business here. I invite all of you to please come back and reply to me on how much I hate (insert company of choice) + (insert issue of choice). It seems to bring you all together, and closer. So who am I to stop a good thing......

 

[Raistlin]

I don't think Sony will put a scaler in the ps3. Japanese developers seem to like making their games look as crisp sharp as possible, and a scaler would ruin any sharpness. My guess is that developers will simply make their games render in the resolution of whatever the ps3 is hooked up to (or Sony will tell developers to do that).

Ummm ... no.

 

[Striek]

You guys actually think I care about some console war? Think Company A is somehow better than company B?

Your post history says: Yes. Come on if you don't take yourself seriously how do you expect others to.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Your post history says: Yes. Come on if you don't take yourself seriously how do you expect others to.

My post history if you've followed it for the years I've been here and 4 nicks I've used over server changes, inherently questions everything. But I'm pretty sure you haven't so go ahead and think what you will if it helps you get a better sleep at night.

You on the other hand, I know your agenda, so go ahead and say what you want to.

 

[Striek]

My post history if you've followed it for the years I've been here and 4 nicks I've used over server changes, inherently questions everything. But I'm pretty sure you haven't so go ahead and think what you will if it helps you get a better sleep at night.

You on the other hand, I know your agenda, so go ahead and say what you want to.

I'll elaborate. Its very clear you have an Xbox bias (one of the worst on the board), you've been tagged for it and also have some else tagged as your 'redux'. You post anti-Sony comments at the drop of a hat and rarely have a negative for MS. This is only a messageboard so admitting biases is easy.
I own all the systems and enjoy them too, that doesn't mean shit about biases.

Edit; I was going to reply to his rants now, but its not worth bumping. All I'll say to his post below is, you have a history of bagging anything Sony related, being called a fanboy then screaming that others are fanboys. Hes accused half of GAF of being fanboys for calling him out on his shit.

 

[Raistlin]

Tenacious-V,

While I can see why one would assume that Int8 can't really = FP16, you need to think about how your worded your comments.

You didn't ask or try to research whether it could be true or not - you did not keep an open mind in any way. Instead, wearing your assumption like a blindfold, you stated that it can't possibly be as good - and that is that.

While the circle jerk here was obviously overdone (as it always is here at GAF), you cannot and should not act as though you are entirely innocent in this. The punishment may not have equaled the crime, but that doesn't change the fact that a crime still occurred.

 

[Tenacious-V]

I'll elaborate. Its very clear you have an Xbox bias (one of the worst on the board), you've been tagged for it and also have some else tagged as your 'redux'. You post anti-Sony comments at the drop of a hat and rarely have a negative for MS. This is only a messageboard so admitting biases is easy.
I own all the systems and enjoy them too, that doesn't mean shit about biases.

Ah once again you assume something. I'll elaborate. I enjoy my Xbox360, yet if I don't have praise for Sony, I'm anti Sony. Me hating something about a company, doesn't inherently make me hate that company. You guys generalize entirely to much.

My disliking of BD/HD-DVD has nothing to do with consoles. I elaborated on why HD-DVD was ample competition for BD. Yet because I didn't follow suit of praise for BD, I'm a Sony hater. Yet I've been downplaying BD/HD-DVD the entire time. You people just like to selectively choose things and then label people. Me not likeing 1 aspect of Sony, doesn't mean I hate them. I like the PS3. Yet since I didn't like 1 aspect of Sony, you guys generalize and assume I hate everything about them. My preference for ATi over Nvidia makes you think I love Xbox over PS3 due to GPU incorporation. That again is another generalization, me liking ATi doesn't mean since NV is in PS3 that I hate them. You console fanboys just assume that.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Tenacious-V,

While I can see why one would assume that Int8 can't really = FP16, you need to think about how your worded your comments.

You didn't ask or try to research whether it could be true or not - you did not keep an open mind in any way. Instead, wearing your assumption like a blindfold, you stated that it can't possibly be as good - and that is that.

While the circle jerk here was obviously overdone (as it always is here at GAF), you cannot and should not act as though you are entirely innocent in this. The punishment may not have equaled the crime, but that doesn't change the fact that a crime still occurred.

Yeah I guess my wording was off. But even if you read what I said, I wasn't bashing anything. I was stating how if FP is the standard for HDR, if INT was used, then it wasn't true HDR. That's not a lie.

I even said later that I hope it's faked enough so it'll work. Going by what SolnidSnake said, saying he didn't care as long as it was faked good. Then I questioned both MS and Sony, over things. The people here just can't take any form of criticism without barking like dogs over trivial shit. It's fucking sad.

 

[Raistlin]

Not problem ... I wasn't upset by what you said. People state assumptions as fact all the time. It happens to everyone at some point.

I was simply pointing out that this place is a tough crowd, and if you make a mistake - prepare to get p0ned










*I can't believe I'm using alliteration with l33t words. I've reached a new low.

 

[Fafalada]

From what I've been gathering I didn't know that an INT8 process could fundamentally replace FP16, being such a different approach.

The basic misunderstanding is that you're talking about "process" - but both are just data storage formats in this case, nothing more.
It's fundamentally not much different from media compressions you use on daily basis (Jpeg/mp3/avc.264...) - they are all packing data to perceptual rather then absolute space, getting storage savings as a result.

But that's good to hear. So if this is true, why is HDR using FP in the first place then?

As with All areas of ongoing research - one can't just know when or what new advancements will be made. 5 years ago quality of PRT based lighting was science fiction in realtime, yet with what we know now, the tech is perfectly feasible to use on 5-6 year old hw. But that's the benefit of hindsight we didn't have in the past.

The beauty of hardware letting go of rigid fixed-hw acceleration models is that we get to see real advances being made in software regardless of the list of bullet point featuresets on the box of your latest graphic chip.
So even though hw makers were taking the harder brute force approach to HDR, we still get to use alternatives such as this one.

 

[Raistlin]

They should be calling a good patent lawyer right now

 

[Tenacious-V]

The basic misunderstanding is that you're talking about "process" - but both are just data storage formats in this case, nothing more.
It's fundamentally not much different from media compressions you use on daily basis (Jpeg/mp3/avc.264...) - they are all packing data to perceptual rather then absolute space, getting storage savings as a result.

Oh okay, I gotcha. I was under the impression that INT and FP were more than just data formats. I thought there was something different in approach between them.

As with All areas of ongoing research - one can't just know when or what new advancements will be made. 5 years ago quality of PRT based lighting was science fiction in realtime, yet with what we know now, the tech is perfectly feasible to use on 5-6 year old hw. But that's the benefit of hindsight we didn't have in the past.

The beauty of hardware letting go of rigid fixed-hw acceleration models is that we get to see real advances being made in software regardless of the list of bullet point featuresets on the box of your latest graphic chip.
So even though hw makers were taking the harder brute force approach to HDR, we still get to use alternatives such as this one.

So, does that mean when they were creating HDR they just chose FP as a "just in case" scenario, or did they believe that's what was needed? Seeing as INT is much less taxing, did they just overestimate what was necessary?

 

[Tenacious-V]

Not problem ... I wasn't upset by what you said. People state assumptions as fact all the time. It happens to everyone at some point.

I was simply pointing out that this place is a tough crowd, and if you make a mistake - prepare to get p0ned










*I can't believe I'm using alliteration with l33t words. I've reached a new low.

No kidding. Except I don't believe what I said somehow should have triggered some fanboy jerk session. It wasn't a bashing of any kind. It was a questioning in regards to INT and FP, not a Sony vs whatever....

And I love how not a single one of them has entered this thread since. Since everything has been explained and they've been shown to be their typical jackass selves, they won't come in here to post at all. All they do is assume shit, overreact, attack, and think they're so great.

Needless to say, I have a bunch of nicks I can happily add to my ignore list.

 

[seanoff]

tenacious, no offense, but you were very VERY definate that int8 was shit. You made some very definative statements poo-pooing it.

My point was/is you shouldn't comment too much or be too rigid in your stance when clearly you have no idea what is going on.

Its good you question everything, esp in the console/graphics chip space given the amount of BS that those companies sprout, but when employed game programmers pop up and say what dean and marco were saying about int8 you might want to be a little more circumspect.

I was watching that discussion on B3D and when ERP, Laa Yosh and the others didn't immediately jump on it as trash i concluded that maybe they had something but i don't know enough to comment so i didn't.

I will spectate all occurances of this whether it be Sony, MS, Nintendo related. Its justa bit of fun.

 

[Raistlin]

So, does that mean when they were creating HDR they just chose FP as a "just in case" scenario, or did they believe that's what was needed? Seeing as INT is much less taxing, did they just overestimate what was necessary?

From my understanding, they just recently came up with the algorithm to store equivalent HDR data using INT8.

They used FP16 initially, because that’s all they (and everyone else) had to achieve the HDR they wanted.

 

[Raistlin]

Also, your initial statement that sparked the GAF explosion was stated as an absolute.

Without knowledge of what they were doing, or exactly what FP16 and INT8 even are, you stated it was impossible to achieve the same HDR if the game was 'downgraded' to INT8. You assumed they were doing some sort of approximation, and at best hoped that it would look good enough within the confines of their specific needs for Heavenly Sword.

There are no two ways about it.

 

[Tenacious-V]

Also, your initial statement that sparked the GAF explosion was stated as an absolute.

Without knowledge of what they were doing, or exactly what FP16 and INT8 even are, you stated it was impossible to achieve the same HDR if the game was 'downgraded' to INT8. You assumed they were doing some sort of approximation, and at best hoped that it would look good enough within the confines of their specific needs for Heavenly Sword.

There are no two ways about it.

I guess so. But I saw it as FP was the standard for HDR, which it is. INT isn't (wasn't?, if it's been changed) part of it, so going by that conclusion I reasonably assessed it was an approximation and a "faking" of true HDR. There was nothing wrong with that.

The only problem was that since I stated INT wasn't as good, in a PS3 related topic I got attacked. You have to agree with that. If this was strictly an HDR topic, with FP vs INT and disregarding any console relatedness, nobody would have any problems, or given a shit. But since I made it in something regarding PS3, I'm instantly the center of attack from all the fanboys.

 

[Raistlin]

I guess so. But I saw it as FP was the standard for HDR, which it is. INT isn't (wasn't?, if it's been changed) part of it, so going by that conclusion I reasonably assessed it was an approximation and a "faking" of true HDR. There was nothing wrong with that.

There was something wrong with it to a certain extent. DeanoC explicitly stated "We are definately not using FP16 HDR anymore, Marco implemented a cool method to get the same results using INT8. Faster and with MSAA, Winner"

Since he - someone actually developing a game right now - stated that it was equal, your initial reaction should have been to question it - not disregard it and say it can't possibly be equal.

I don't always take what a developer says as gospel, but I would ask the questions and not automatically assume I know better.

I think that is the crux of what bothered at least some of the people here. The assumption that you knew better, coupled with the later admission that you actually do not have a solid understadning of the subject matter. People that talk with authority on subjects they don't really have experience with tend to 'chap' a lot of asses.

The only problem was that since I stated INT wasn't as good, in a PS3 related topic I got attacked. You have to agree with that. If this was strictly an HDR topic, with FP vs INT and disregarding any console relatedness, nobody would have any problems, or given a shit. But since I made it in something regarding PS3, I'm instantly the center of attack from all the fanboys.

I'm sure some, who knows - maybe many, fall into that class. Some are probably looking at it the way I am though too.

 

[Tenacious-V]

There was something wrong with it to a certain extent. DeanoC explicitly stated "We are definately not using FP16 HDR anymore, Marco implemented a cool method to get the same results using INT8. Faster and with MSAA, Winner"

Since he - someone actually developing a game right now - stated that it was equal, your initial reaction should have been to question it - not disregard it and say it can't possibly be equal.

Maybe, but since it wasn't in the spec of HDR since it began, you can't really blame me for thinking it wasn't true HDR. If INT was designated from the beginning to be included in HDR, I wouldn't see an issue. Since it was saying something not in spec, is being used to replace the spec, just didn't seem right. If you get what I'm saying.

As for the fanboys, I just think they need to grow the fuck up and get those sticks outa their asses. Why does it always have to be something vs something. Just enjoy the fucking things and play the damn games instead of resorting to immature attacking when you think your company is getting something bad said about them. It's not like Sony, MS, Nintendo or whatever even fucking care what you guys think, so what's the need for the damn circle jerking. It's like these companies run their lives.....

 

[Raistlin]

What is this spec you speak of?

I though HDR is a concept, with a number of techniques used to acheive the mapping of real world luminance values into the limited gamut of a display device?

Some hardware has acceleration for doing HDR lighting, and certain data representations are commonly used - but it's all just algorithms. They are modified and improved all the time.

 

[Raistlin]

This discussion is starting to get pointless.

Let's just quit while we're ahead.

 

[Tenacious-V]

This discussion is starting to get pointless.

Let's just quit while we're ahead.

You got it bro.

 

[Nostromo]

Nostromo, that's good to hear. From what I've been gathering I didn't know that an INT8 process could fundamentally replace FP16, being such a different approach. But that's good to hear. So if this is true, why is HDR using FP in the first place then? If INT is good enough, why go all the way beyond that to using FP?

A INT8 (or RGBA8) buffer is not enough to store a HDR image as it is.
GPUs manufacters have provided us with floating point render targets to store HDR images, and since most of the hw out there nicely map to this use, almost everyone is doing HDR rendering that way.
At the same time it's possibile to store into a RGBA8 buffer a HDR image if we encode in some particular way our colors.
It would not be correct to say we're storing integer values into a integer buffer. We are 'faking' a fancy color representation into a integer buffer, since there are many (unlimted) ways to represent a color (if you have ever used an image processing program such as Photoshop you know what I'm talking about).
This encoding/decoding is done in a pixel shader and it eat some cycles (just a few) and it's (most of the time very small) cost you pay in order to save a lot of memory and bandwith.

 

[teiresias]

I'm an electrical engineer who's been introduced to some software methods for doing floating point math on 8-bit microprocessors that only support 8-bit data words and have no FP hardware, so I never really questioned the validity of doing somthing that's FP16 using INT8 data structures, in the example above its just a matter of writing the code that "bangs the bits" correctly as the saying goes (though that saying is generally reserved for implementing a bus protocol over a generic I/O port).

I would have thought it would be slower, but since it seems they're not really doing what I'm suggesting above in the strictest sense I understand how it's used in their process, granted I haven't read the discussion closely so I could be wrong in my thinking (ie. it seems they're not really doing any floating point math at all using the INT8).

So for someone to simply right off the idea of doing floating point math because you're using INT8 seemed extremely silly to me.

 

[Nostromo]

in the example above its just a matter of writing the code that "bangs the bits" correctly

When you don't have any integer support in your processor is not that easy to bang the bits correctly.. :lol

 

[mckmas8808]

When you don't have any integer support in your processor is not that easy to bang the bits correctly.. :lol

CLUE!!!

j/k

 

[EviLore]

You guys actually think I care about some console war? Think Company A is somehow better than company B?

Yes.

 

[teiresias]

Yes, I'm aware of the Int support, though only cursory, I'm not coding for Cell after all, but that's beside my main point of someone thinking fp via int is somehow ludicrous in and of itself is somewhat misguided.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yes, I'm aware of the Int support, though only cursory, I'm not coding for Cell after all, but that's beside my main point of someone thinking fp via int is somehow ludicrous in and of itself is somewhat misguided.

I do not think he is talking about CELL (if I undersytood your response in the right way): scalar FP as well as Integer values are supported in the ISA (Faf, keep that knife away... put it down, that won't change the SPE's )... I'd say Integers and FP's are better supported in the than on the PPE (under certain points of view... unified register file and all) and you have your nice integer for use as pointers.

I think one of the major innovation of WGF 2.0 (somehow I doubt RSX is fully WGF 2.0 compliant ) was the addition of Integer addressing ( http://download.microsoft.com/downl...4e74-92a3-088782200fe7/TWPR05007_WinHEC05.ppt slide 29 ).

 

[Nostromo]

Yep, I wasn't talking about CELL, I was talking about SM3.0 GPUs lack of any real integer support in a fragment shader. It's a bit tricky to AND, OR, SHIFT..using floating point math