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How's Ms. Marvel's Popularity in the comics community?
- Thread starter Athreous
- Start date
InfiniteCombo
Banned
strange headache
coming up with arguments based on actual trends and sales numbers.Others respond with points that consist of (*checks notes*)
- Accusations ("you don't read comics!")
- Goalpost movement ("well sales don't matter"... "Sure her series got cancelled but she's being added to ensemble comics!")
- Back to accusations ("you just can't stand minorities being main characters in comics!")
LMAO,
strange headache
singlehandedly eating all of you for breakfast, lunch, and dinner... Based on logic alone 
GnomeChimpsky
Member
I'm curious, if this doesn't qualify, what does agenda driven media look like to you?
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belmarduk
Member
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GnomeChimpsky
Member
I kinda figured.
In comics? Superman defeating Hitler and Tojo was certainly agenda driven.
And there's no agenda driving the character swaps and other trends mentioned in this thread?
belmarduk
Member
Only agenda is to make money.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
If making money was their only agenda, they wouldn't keep including a character whose stand-alone comics series keeps performing poorly. (As
strange headache
has provided receipts for, multiple times.)
Also, don't be dense. You ALL know what people mean when they say "woke." Woke is NOT just inclusion of minorities, so please let's stop the fucking garbage "oh you're just uncomfortable with minorities in comics!!" talking point. It's thoroughly invalid. There's not a single soul in this whole website that objects to more representation. (I am certainly for more representation; hell I'm of both ethnic and racial minorities myself!)
Woke has a very specific meaning. You all know what it is. So, cut it out!
strange headache
has provided receipts for, multiple times.)Also, don't be dense. You ALL know what people mean when they say "woke." Woke is NOT just inclusion of minorities, so please let's stop the fucking garbage "oh you're just uncomfortable with minorities in comics!!" talking point. It's thoroughly invalid. There's not a single soul in this whole website that objects to more representation. (I am certainly for more representation; hell I'm of both ethnic and racial minorities myself!)
Woke has a very specific meaning. You all know what it is. So, cut it out!
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GnomeChimpsky
Member
And what is your take on all the creators who've explicitly declared on social media and in interviews that they make these decisions to push diversity and to stick it to toxic fans?
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Plenty of popular characters have had books cancelled. Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Captain America (Steve, John, Bucky and Sam), Hulk, Deadpool, etc.
Ms. Marvel getting cancelled isn't news or proof of "go woke, go broke" ... I still don't know what's "woke" about Ms. Marvel. It's been incredibly hard to introduce a new character and the book solo book to sell well. People like familiarity... Which is why Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc are still going strong and titles like the Damage were cancelled after little more than a year or less.
Ms. Marvel getting cancelled isn't news or proof of "go woke, go broke" ... I still don't know what's "woke" about Ms. Marvel. It's been incredibly hard to introduce a new character and the book solo book to sell well. People like familiarity... Which is why Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc are still going strong and titles like the Damage were cancelled after little more than a year or less.
belmarduk
Member
I interact with people of other races and religions every day. If a creator wants their content to reflect society then it doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
GnomeChimpsky
Member
Leaving aside the morality of it, is it an agenda or not?
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FunkMiller
Member
What an odd fucking thread.
If you want to know how popular the Ms Marvel comic is, look at the sales.
Can comic book sales still be accessed? That used to be the case.
Does it sell well or not? End of argument.
If you want to know how popular the Ms Marvel comic is, look at the sales.
Can comic book sales still be accessed? That used to be the case.
Does it sell well or not? End of argument.
sol_bad
Member
Others respond with points that consist of (*checks notes*)
- Accusations ("you don't read comics!")
- Goalpost movement ("well sales don't matter"... "Sure her series got cancelled but she's being added to ensemble comics!")
- Back to accusations ("you just can't stand minorities being main characters in comics!")
LMAO,
No.
The only sales numbers that exist for comics are physical sales of single issues and they aren't even 100% accurate. Physical sales of single issues might have been the whole story back in the 90's but it's not the whole story today.
These days there are also digital sales, the Marvel Unlimited app and the collected edition market. We don't have any figures for any of these markets.
No one is claiming that Ms. Marvel is the most popular superhero on the face of the planet. But she is a popular character that is highlighted in team books.
If you know the industry and watch the industry you would know and understand that Marvel are more than happy to cancel books that aren't doing well. There have been plenty of books that were not marketed as a mini series prior to release that end up being only 5-6 issues long.
Black Widow, Luke Cage and Iron Fist always struggle with having consistent runs and stories. No one complains about them when Marvel keeps trying to make a new series with those characters. No one brings up their sales numbers to prove hoe poorly they sell.
strange headache
is constantly shitting on Ms. Marvel because he basically hates the Muslim religion and hates that an American company is using a Muslim character in their books. He'll do anything he can do to twist the truth.
ManaByte
Member
Again, people don't understand how Marvel's business model has worked for the last decade or so. They will end a series and start at a new #1 when there's a creative change such as a new writer or a big change to the main character. Marvel calls it their seasonal model and its meant to not be daunting to new readers who would normally see #300 on a comic and not pick it up out of worry of missing a bunch of the story. This here explains it well:
Why does Marvel constantly restart all of it's titles? | Fandom
Will there ever be another Marvel title to reach…
marvel.fandom.com
And this from PETER DAVID:
Marvel Renumbering | Peter David.net
I've noticed fans lately commenting on the fact that Marvel is routinely renumbering and relaunching series. Some fans see this as a relentless marketi ...
www.peterdavid.net
belmarduk
Member
No. Its how they choose to tell a story and if some aspects of that story have real-world elements and some have fantastical elements. I don't have the time nor the energy to dissect every bit of entertainment I consume to worry about whether one of its creators had some kind of "agenda" that I agree or disagree with. I simply like it or I don't. I view it as art, commerce or both.
GnomeChimpsky
Member
I believe I've already proven my point.
But I'm honestly happy you can enjoy it. I have become too much of a cynic and can't really separate the art from the agenda any more and it's pretty depressing.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
"No" what? Just because you say "no" as a blanket statement, doesn't disqualify anything I've said.
Right, but at least he's providing some sort of sales numbers; whatever numbers we have, they're still insight into the popularity of the character, and help explain Marvel's actions with cancellations/restarts/etc.
How do you measure "popularity?" This is where we're at odds. Strange Headache is the only one that has provided any objective measure of popularity (however potentially "incomplete" it may be, per your point about physical/digital sales). People replying to him are just making claims of popularity based on how they feel or random articles they read online from biased sources, themselves declaring how they feel about the matter.
So you're acknowledging that the books "aren't doing well." You're just proving Strange Headache's point!
This thread isn't about Black Widow, Luke Cage, or Iron Fist. This thread is about Ms. Marvel.
strange headache
has said multiple times (including in this thread) that he's an atheist, which means he hates.... all religions. I don't think he specifically targets Islam. (If I'm wrong about that, let me know). He and people like
FunkMiller
are strict atheists and if you see many religion related threads, they go in with their atheist talking points. As an agnostic with Christian upbringing/sensitivities myself, I don't ever get offended by what they say about religion. It's their opinion and they're entitled to it.
ManaByte
Member
I posted above why Marvel restarts comics so often.
sol_bad
Member
"No" what? Just because you say "no" as a blanket statement, doesn't disqualify anything I've said.
Right, but at least he's providing some sort of sales numbers; whatever numbers we have, they're still insight into the popularity of the character, and help explain Marvel's actions with cancellations/restarts/etc.
How do you measure "popularity?" This is where we're at odds. Strange Headache is the only one that has provided any objective measure of popularity (however potentially "incomplete" it may be, per your point about physical/digital sales). People replying to him are just making claims of popularity based on how they feel or random articles they read online from biased sources, themselves declaring how they feel about the matter.
So you're acknowledging that the books "aren't doing well." You're just proving Strange Headache's point!
This thread isn't about Black Widow, Luke Cage, or Iron Fist. This thread is about Ms. Marvel.
Did you actually click on his link for the Ms. Marvel sales numbers and understand them? Issue 11 was the newest issue released that month which is why it has 13,000+ estimated issues sold. Issues 7-10 were released in previous months which is why they only have 1500 to 2600 issues sold for that month. That's how
strange headache
works, he tries to present "facts" but they are misleading facts. Granted, the Ms. Marvel sales are pretty far down the list but we have no data on digital sales to say it's an outright failure.And yes, currently Ms. Marvel doesn't have an ongoing comic series but neither does Deadpool, one of Marvels most popular characters.
I'd say Mosaic from 2016 is an example of a failed book.
Issue 1 started off pretty well back in October 2016 with over 40,000 estimated sales.
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-10.html
But by the time we get to issue 6-8.
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-03.html
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-04.html
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-05.html
There was no issue 9.
You have to keep in mind that the comic industry has substantially changed between 2016/2017 and now, there has been a shift towards digital and collected editions. If you look at the numbers, physical numbers have stayed pretty stagnant but digital numbers have doubled since 2016.
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
A pattern has emerged: you know you're winning an argument when chicken shits like
Batiman
just passive aggressively react with emojis, instead of engaging. Straight out of that Taylor Swift dude's playbook.
Got something to say? Say it publicly. Own it. Don't be afraid
This is, after all, a forum -- a place to engage in ideas.
Batiman
just passive aggressively react with emojis, instead of engaging. Straight out of that Taylor Swift dude's playbook.Got something to say? Say it publicly. Own it. Don't be afraid
This is, after all, a forum -- a place to engage in ideas.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
This is a reasonable response. I'm still working but will take a look at your links later tonight.Did you actually click on his link for the Ms. Marvel sales numbers and understand them? Issue 11 was the newest issue released that month which is why it has 13,000+ estimated issues sold. Issues 7-10 were released in previous months which is why they only have 1500 to 2600 issues sold for that month. That's how
And yes, currently Ms. Marvel doesn't have an ongoing comic series but neither does Deadpool, one of Marvels most popular characters.
I'd say Mosaic from 2016 is an example of a failed book.
Issue 1 started off pretty well back in October 2016 with over 40,000 estimated sales.
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-10.html
But by the time we get to issue 6-8.
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-03.html
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-04.html
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2017/2017-05.html
There was no issue 9.
You have to keep in mind that the comic industry has substantially changed between 2016/2017 and now, there has been a shift towards digital and collected editions. If you look at the numbers, physical numbers have stayed pretty stagnant but digital numbers have doubled since 2016.
Something should be clear: I'm not against Ms. Marvel as a superhero concept. That is perfectly fine. I honestly don't really care about superheroes all that much, with the sole exception of Batman, who stands for things I believe in. (Funnily enough he's the biggest profile comics superhero that doesn't have any "cosmic/magical/special" superpowers.) Ok to a lesser extent I also enjoy Spider-Man and Wolverine stories, but I don't quite seek them out like I used to do with Batman.
So to get to the main question/topic of the thread, I do think that sales are THE main metric for popularity. So let me ask you,
sol_bad
: why are digital sales numbers not available in the comics industry? You would think that if it is indeed true that digital has surpassed physical, that comics publishers would want to highlight that in public relations statements?
Batiman
Banned
I’m laughing at you kissing SH ass after he was proven to be talking out of his ass with bullshit “evidence”.A pattern has emerged: you know you're winning an argument when chicken shits like
Got something to say? Say it publicly. Own it. Don't be afraid
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Doom85
Member
For fucks’ sake, even as a fan of the character/comic, who gives this much of a shit about the exact sales of a title? Back in the mid 2010s, I remember hearing physical sales were low and digital sales were high and that’s all I needed to know. But it makes even less sense for people who don’t even read her series and never plan to to be this interested in the sales numbers.
And because I can tell certain individuals are immediately about to go, “hey, we’re just answering OP’s question”, puh-lease. Barely any time had passed after her D+ series had aired when certain Gaffers were posting the low viewership numbers and could barely hide their celebration boners. Nobody had asked about it yet a few individuals who mostly likely watched very little of the show if at all were super eager to cheer its “failure”.
For the record, I don’t give a shit about watching sports. I have no interest in watching people who are super tiny on a screen toss a ball around for hours. But I’m not checking numbers on how well the Super Bowl was received or looking into the viewer numbers of the World Cup because when I say I don’t give a shit, I actually mean it. For a more closer comparison, I don’t care about the Punisher in comics form because gun action to me isn’t exciting in drawn form. But again, I have not looked into sales numbers of any of his titles because WHY THE FUCK WOULD I? His books aren’t for me, cool, and I moved on with my life.
But to end on a hilarious note, consider this: the word “fan” is generally accepted to have been derived from the word “fanatic”. Hmm, well, regardless of one’s intentions, I’d say looking this heavily into the sales, cancellations, renewals, etc. of a character’s titles definitely qualifies as “fanatical”.
So to every single person in this thread and on Gaf as a whole who went out of their way to look into the sales and viewer numbers of Ms. Marvel’s comics and/or show, welcome! You are now OBJECTIVELY a fan of Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel!
InfiniteCombo
Banned
I'm not kissing anybody's ass.
And he has provided way more evidence than you have. So man up and provide your own counterpoints, you asswipe.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Who hurt you?
For fucks’ sake, even as a fan of the character/comic, who gives this much of a shit about the exact sales of a title? Back in the mid 2010s, I remember hearing physical sales were low and digital sales were high and that’s all I needed to know. But it makes even less sense for people who don’t even read her series and never plan to to be this interested in the sales numbers.
And because I can tell certain individuals are immediately about to go, “hey, we’re just answering OP’s question”, puh-lease. Barely any time had passed after her D+ series had aired when certain Gaffers were posting the low viewership numbers and could barely hide their celebration boners. Nobody had asked about it yet a few individuals who mostly likely watched very little of the show if at all were super eager to cheer its “failure”.
For the record, I don’t give a shit about watching sports. I have no interest in watching people who are super tiny on a screen toss a ball around for hours. But I’m not checking numbers on how well the Super Bowl was received or looking into the viewer numbers of the World Cup because when I say I don’t give a shit, I actually mean it. For a more closer comparison, I don’t care about the Punisher in comics form because gun action to me isn’t exciting in drawn form. But again, I have not looked into sales numbers of any of his titles because WHY THE FUCK WOULD I? His books aren’t for me, cool, and I moved on with my life.
But to end on a hilarious note, consider this: the word “fan” is generally accepted to have been derived from the word “fanatic”. Hmm, well, regardless of one’s intentions, I’d say looking this heavily into the sales, cancellations, renewals, etc. of a character’s titles definitely qualifies as “fanatical”.
So to every single person in this thread and on Gaf as a whole who went out of their way to look into the sales and viewer numbers of Ms. Marvel’s comics and/or show, welcome! You are now OBJECTIVELY a fan of Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel!
You seem really, really emotionally worked up about this. (As you are with a lot of things you don't agree with...)
Also, nice try. From Merriam-Webster:
fan
noun (2)
Definition of fan (Entry 3 of 3)
1: an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or a performing art) usually as a spectator
2: an ardent admirer or enthusiast (as of a celebrity or a pursuit)
As hard as you want people to join your little Ms. Marvel fan club, some of us are engaging in a dialogue. Some of us choose to answer the question and stay level, some of you choose to get worked up.
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Batiman
Banned
You chose to ignore evidence in this thread and side with buddy even after the fact he was called out spreading bullshit.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
What evidence? All I see is evidence of him being correct.
Even sol_bad admitted sales of Ms. Marvel comics went down. Marvel cancelled the series multiple times. Where's the bullshit?
(Answer: Inside your body, it seems. I hear there are things called "laxatives" that can help with your problem
)
Doom85
Member
Who hurt you?
You seem really, really emotionally worked up about this. (As you are with a lot of things you don't agree with...)
Also, nice try. From Merriam-Webster:
fan
noun (2)
Definition of fan (Entry 3 of 3)
1: an enthusiastic devotee (as of a sport or a performing art) usually as a spectator
2: an ardent admirer or enthusiast (as of a celebrity or a pursuit)
As hard as you want people to join your little Ms. Marvel fan club, some of us are engaging in a dialogue. Some of us choose to answer the question and stay level, some of you choose to get worked up.
Nobody hurt me. I just think it comes off as kinda unhinged to follow a title this closely if one hasn’t even presumably read it. I’ve never watched American Idol, so shocker I’m not checking each year to see how the viewership numbers of American Idol were. You know, as in logical human behavior.
Any who, as for your denial of your true calling: an enthusiast, well nothing says “enthusiast” like obsessing over a character and their sales history like this. And hey, who’s getting worked up? I’m just expressing joy we’re all so interested in this character, you’re the one who tried and failed to pull a “well, actually” on me.
But anyway, I’m so glad to meet another Kamala fan!
InfiniteCombo
Banned
The one being "unhinged" here is you and you only. Reacting with violent emotion at people just trying to answer the OP's question. Even others like sol_bad and DeafTourette are being pretty level and chill (they usually are). Stop flying off the handle, dude.
You know it is possible to separate a fact-based argument from emotion, right? You should try it sometime.
What!?
Dude...Jesus Christ dude... If I cared about you (which I don't), I would actually be concerned. No one in this thread (except for you) is obsessing; not even the fans. You have people on two sides: people like me and Strange Headache on one side, and people like sol_bad and DeafTourette on the other. And we're all trying to just answer the question in the OP. We all seem to be engaging with the facts, and are largely emotionally disengaged.
Not a fan, don't care. If I cared enough about Marvel heroes and wanted to follow one with body-stretching powers, I'd follow Mister Fantastic.And hey, who’s getting worked up? I’m just expressing joy we’re all so interested in this character, you’re the one who tried and failed to pull a “well, actually” on me.
But anyway, I’m so glad to meet another Kamala fan!
So can you stop derailing the thread with your highly emotional melodrama, and answer the question in the OP, please? Thanks
If you can't emotionally cool off, I'd suggest going for a walk or something. It's summer here in the United States, you could use some fresh air.
Doom85
Member
The one being "unhinged" here is you and you only. Reacting with violent emotion at people just trying to answer the OP's question. Even others like sol_bad and DeafTourette are being pretty level and chill (they usually are). Stop flying off the handle, dude.
You know it is possible to separate a fact-based argument from emotion, right? You should try it sometime.
What!?
Jesus Christ dude... If I cared about you (which I don't), I would actually be concerned. No one in this thread (except for you) is obsessing; not even the fans. You have people on two sides: people like me and Strange Headache on one side, and people like sol_bad and DeafTourette on the other. And we're all trying to just answer the question in the OP. We all seem to be engaging with the facts, and are largely emotionally disengaged.
Not a fan, don't care. If I cared enough about Marvel heroes and wanted to follow one with body-stretching powers, I'd follow Mister Fantastic.
So can you stop derailing the thread with your highly emotional melodrama, and answer the question in the OP, please? Thanks
-sending someone a hug is “violent emotion”?
Did you frequently call the cops on your own parents as a child? Just curious.
Also, you can’t claim to have been non-emotional, as you’ve told people they’re full of shit, flat out lied (”there’s not a single soul on this website who objects to more representation”, oh sweetie, you must be EXTREMELY selective on the posts you read here…), act like everyone agrees on what is “woke” or not which is not true (also ignoring the detail that the term has a LONG history and has been essentially stolen and twisted into something negative), claimed to barely care about superheroes yet also clearly cares enough to go into sales figures of specific titles (….what), called people “chicken shits”, and mind you that’s only on page 2, if you posted on page 1 as well I could probably go on even further!
Little piece of advice: when attempting to high road someone, maybe check your own receipts first.
-what are you confused about? Did you forget yourself you only read Batman, and used to read a little Spidey? So by your own words, you don’t read Ms. Marvel. Do you not know how a comparison works?
-ah yes, everyone here is emotionally disengaged…..well, ignoring how you flat out said earlier that one of the guys on your side hates all religions……but I mean, it’s not like “hate” is an emotion or anything, and it also totally doesn’t present this individual as extremely biased in their arguments
Also, you can act indifferent all you want, but I care about you!
-attention everyone, someone on the Internet doesn’t care about a topic! What? Why do they enter threads revolving around said topic and posting a lot in them if that’s the case? Err, not sure, we’ll have updates for you as soon as we can!
I’m all good here, but maybe you should hit that AC. Maybe you’ll start taking your own advice then.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Holy shit... I rarely ever say this, even to people online, but....-sending someone a hug is “violent emotion”?
Did you frequently call the cops on your own parents as a child? Just curious.
Also, you can’t claim to have been non-emotional, as you’ve told people they’re full of shit, flat out lied (”there’s not a single soul on this website who objects to more representation”, oh sweetie, you must be EXTREMELY selective on the posts you read here…), act like everyone agrees on what is “woke” or not which is not true (also ignoring the detail that the term has a LONG history and has been essentially stolen and twisted into something negative), claimed to barely care about superheroes yet also clearly cares enough to go into sales figures of specific titles (….what), called people “chicken shits”, and mind you that’s only on page 2, if you posted on page 1 as well I could probably go on even further!
Little piece of advice: when attempting to high road someone, maybe check your own receipts first.
-what are you confused about? Did you forget yourself you only read Batman, and used to read a little Spidey? So by your own words, you don’t read Ms. Marvel. Do you not know how a comparison works?
-ah yes, everyone here is emotionally disengaged…..well, ignoring how you flat out said earlier that one of the guys on your side hates all religions……but I mean, it’s not like “hate” is an emotion or anything, and it also totally doesn’t present this individual as extremely biased in their arguments
Also, you can act indifferent all you want, but I care about you!
-attention everyone, someone on the Internet doesn’t care about a topic! What? Why do they enter threads revolving around said topic and posting a lot in them if that’s the case? Err, not sure, we’ll have updates for you as soon as we can!
I’m all good here, but maybe you should hit that AC. Maybe you’ll start taking your own advice then.
Dude, you're a fucking weirdo
I'm done with you. If you want to actually get back to the topic of the thread, I'm more than willing/able to engage with you.
Otherwise, let the adults in the room do the talking.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Guys! Guys!
Let's talk about the powers instead (comic and MCU)!
No need to argue like this!
Let's talk about the powers instead (comic and MCU)!
No need to argue like this!
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Thank you!
I'd like to get back to the topic. I'm gonna look at sol_bad's post again shortly; he gave me a good reply, it's only fair I take time to look at it in return.
Doom85
Member
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Actually man, want to put this all behind us? I'm willing to, bro... Even after everything I've said, I've got no ill will towards you. Why? Because...
Doom85
Member
Actually man, want to put this all behind us? I'm willing to, bro... Even after everything I've said, I've got no ill will towards you. Why? Because...
CaptainSlayAHo
Banned
Captain America is now black, now a female thor, now a female hulk, black panther now a female, Ironman is now (iron heart) a black chick, Dr strange is ushering in a Mexican chick replacement, bringing in blade, bringing in Muslim chick ms marvel, hawkeye with a female replacement, other iron man replacement is a black dude (armor wars), secret invasion a bunch of chicks (from my understanding), black widow got a whole movie (lol), and shang chi (good movie but point remains) .... Only white dude with real screen time I remember in the eternals was the villain
Nah dog, no agenda
Doom85
Member
-because Chris Evans wanted to move on to other roles, and Sam is an easier sale to the nation as Cap over the former fugitive (Bucky)
-…did you actually watch Thor 4? I’d clarify, but spoilers
-She-Hulk has been in the comics for decades
-we don’t know for sure who it is. My money is on Shuri due to the actress having top billing, but we’ll see. Also, how is the cancer that tragically took Chadwick from us “an agenda”?
-again, Robert Downey Jr. wanted to move on. The only already existing MCU character who would be a suitable replacement is Rhodey but Don Cheadle probably won’t be in the MCU for too much longer, dudes 57
-America Chavez is not a Dr. Strange replacement in the comics. If Benedict ever wants to step down, it would likely be Wong or the lady who appears at the end of Strange 2 who would take the lead
-again, Blade has been around forever in the comics
-Jeremy Renner might also want to retire the role eventually. Also, they worked together in the show, how is that “being replaced”?
-Rhodey has been in the MCU since Day 1
-of the top 5 billed actors for Secret Invasion, only one is female (Maria Hill’s actress)
-one of the OG six Avengers getting a long requested film is a “LOL”?
-yeah, Shang Chi was good. And really, isn’t that all that matters?
-there was the white guy in The Eternals with the mind control powers. Also the main girl’s boyfriend who was also white. The latter didn’t have much screen time but they were clearly building him up for future appearances. Also, a certain famous individual (also white) kinda showed up in the mid credits scene…..
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Warning: Long post incoming.
Part 1: Let's see... taking it way back to the OP:
Is Ms. Marvel part of some sort of "globalist agenda?" For this case, that's a silly concept and one I refute. And that's coming from me -- I'm one of the biggest/fiercest opponents of all this intersectional garbage that's seemingly omnipresent in the west. And I do think that there is A LOT of media that is part of an agenda, and not a good one. But,, as far as Ms. Marvel and an agenda goes, to quote some assholes on the internet: "this ain't it, chief"
There have been teenage superheroes before -- the original Bucky for Captain America, Robin for Batman, and perhaps most famously, Spider-Man. So having yet another teenage character is completely fine. And her being a girl, and Muslim, is of no consequence.
Honestly the concept for the latest Ms. Marvel sounds like it just flowed naturally:
) than having Ms. Marvel's dedicated comic? Who knows.
Also, it's fine for her to have taken the mantle of Ms. Marvel; before Kamala, THREE different people had been "Ms. Marvel" so it's not like a long-established property where only Bruce Wayne had been Batman, only Clark Kent had been Superman, only Tony Stark had been Iron Man, only Steve Rogers had been Captain America, etc. I'm usually one of the very first people to criticize the (*ahem*) appropriation of an existing/established character, which usually means the replacement of a long-established (usually white, usually male) character with an "intersectional" character. In very rare cases (Miles Morales taking the mantle of Spider-Man) it's very well done. Most of the time, it does come off as very forced, cheap, and ineffective. In the Kamala/Ms. Marvel case? It's neither horrible, nor great. It's just... average. Because Ms. Marvel wasn't really a long-established character and the title of "Ms. Marvel" didn't really have a long shelf life.
Part 2: On Ms. Marvel's popularity
This is an extension of the topic and not something originally intended by the OP. But, since it got brought up, there's really no better "objective" way of measuring popularity than SALES (in the case of comics themselves) or RATINGS (in the case of television shows).
The story with the ratings is a pretty bad one; according to Forbes:
That is... pretty bad. Now, I just went to the Forbes article to pull the numbers, since the rest of the article is some pretty garbage narrative trying to make excuses for why the show performed so poorly. But the objective truth is that this is one measurement of popularity.
The other is comics, which is where the conversation between
sol_bad
and
strange headache
left off. It's hard to argue against Strange Headache's numbers -- they help potentially explain why Marvel axed the Ms. Marvel comics series. What do I mean by "axed?" See sol_bad's reply above, he explicitly says
Characters considered "popular" would, by definition, not have their series canceled. The other point that sol_bad makes is that OK, Ms. Marvel doesn't have an ongoing series, but neither does Deadpool. And that's fine; that would mean that, as far as comics go, Deadpool doesn't seem to be that popular either. Because otherwise his series wouldn't get axed.
Part 1: Let's see... taking it way back to the OP:
Is Ms. Marvel part of some sort of "globalist agenda?" For this case, that's a silly concept and one I refute. And that's coming from me -- I'm one of the biggest/fiercest opponents of all this intersectional garbage that's seemingly omnipresent in the west. And I do think that there is A LOT of media that is part of an agenda, and not a good one. But,, as far as Ms. Marvel and an agenda goes, to quote some assholes on the internet: "this ain't it, chief"
There have been teenage superheroes before -- the original Bucky for Captain America, Robin for Batman, and perhaps most famously, Spider-Man. So having yet another teenage character is completely fine. And her being a girl, and Muslim, is of no consequence.
Honestly the concept for the latest Ms. Marvel sounds like it just flowed naturally:
See that quote above; it's perfectly fine, artists and producers put their own experiences into art all the time. It's the very definition of art. Now, onto what Kamala is about:
I always get lost in the intersectional mumbo jumbo speak, so "authentic perspective" is nonsensical to me. So if there's a storyline in Spider-Man that deals with him having a Muslim friend, and that storyline goes for multiple issues, is that any less "authentic" (
) than having Ms. Marvel's dedicated comic? Who knows.Also, it's fine for her to have taken the mantle of Ms. Marvel; before Kamala, THREE different people had been "Ms. Marvel" so it's not like a long-established property where only Bruce Wayne had been Batman, only Clark Kent had been Superman, only Tony Stark had been Iron Man, only Steve Rogers had been Captain America, etc. I'm usually one of the very first people to criticize the (*ahem*) appropriation of an existing/established character, which usually means the replacement of a long-established (usually white, usually male) character with an "intersectional" character. In very rare cases (Miles Morales taking the mantle of Spider-Man) it's very well done. Most of the time, it does come off as very forced, cheap, and ineffective. In the Kamala/Ms. Marvel case? It's neither horrible, nor great. It's just... average. Because Ms. Marvel wasn't really a long-established character and the title of "Ms. Marvel" didn't really have a long shelf life.
Part 2: On Ms. Marvel's popularity
This is an extension of the topic and not something originally intended by the OP. But, since it got brought up, there's really no better "objective" way of measuring popularity than SALES (in the case of comics themselves) or RATINGS (in the case of television shows).
The story with the ratings is a pretty bad one; according to Forbes:
Ms. Marvel: 775,000.
That is... pretty bad. Now, I just went to the Forbes article to pull the numbers, since the rest of the article is some pretty garbage narrative trying to make excuses for why the show performed so poorly. But the objective truth is that this is one measurement of popularity.
The other is comics, which is where the conversation between
sol_bad
and
strange headache
left off. It's hard to argue against Strange Headache's numbers -- they help potentially explain why Marvel axed the Ms. Marvel comics series. What do I mean by "axed?" See sol_bad's reply above, he explicitly saysCharacters considered "popular" would, by definition, not have their series canceled. The other point that sol_bad makes is that OK, Ms. Marvel doesn't have an ongoing series, but neither does Deadpool. And that's fine; that would mean that, as far as comics go, Deadpool doesn't seem to be that popular either. Because otherwise his series wouldn't get axed.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Warning: Long post incoming.
Part 1: Let's see... taking it way back to the OP:
Is Ms. Marvel part of some sort of "globalist agenda?" For this case, that's a silly concept and one I refute. And that's coming from me -- I'm one of the biggest/fiercest opponents of all this intersectional garbage that's seemingly omnipresent in the west. And I do think that there is A LOT of media that is part of an agenda, and not a good one. But,, as far as Ms. Marvel and an agenda goes, to quote some assholes on the internet: "this ain't it, chief"
There have been teenage superheroes before -- the original Bucky for Captain America, Robin for Batman, and perhaps most famously, Spider-Man. So having yet another teenage character is completely fine. And her being a girl, and Muslim, is of no consequence.
Honestly the concept for the latest Ms. Marvel sounds like it just flowed naturally:
See that quote above; it's perfectly fine, artists and producers put their own experiences into art all the time. It's the very definition of art. Now, onto what Kamala is about:
I always get lost in the intersectional mumbo jumbo speak, so "authentic perspective" is nonsensical to me. So if there's a storyline in Spider-Man that deals with him having a Muslim friend, and that storyline goes for multiple issues, is that any less "authentic" (
Also, it's fine for her to have taken the mantle of Ms. Marvel; before Kamala, THREE different people had been "Ms. Marvel" so it's not like a long-established property where only Bruce Wayne had been Batman, only Clark Kent had been Superman, only Tony Stark had been Iron Man, only Steve Rogers had been Captain America, etc. I'm usually one of the very first people to criticize the (*ahem*) appropriation of an existing/established character, which usually means the replacement of a long-established (usually white, usually male) character with an "intersectional" character. In very rare cases (Miles Morales taking the mantle of Spider-Man) it's very well done. Most of the time, it does come off as very forced, cheap, and ineffective. In the Kamala/Ms. Marvel case? It's neither horrible, nor great. It's just... average. Because Ms. Marvel wasn't really a long-established character and the title of "Ms. Marvel" didn't really have a long shelf life.
Part 2: On Ms. Marvel's popularity
This is an extension of the topic and not something originally intended by the OP. But, since it got brought up, there's really no better "objective" way of measuring popularity than SALES (in the case of comics themselves) or RATINGS (in the case of television shows).
The story with the ratings is a pretty bad one; according to Forbes:
Ms. Marvel: 775,000.
That is... pretty bad. Now, I just went to the Forbes article to pull the numbers, since the rest of the article is some pretty garbage narrative trying to make excuses for why the show performed so poorly. But the objective truth is that this is one measurement of popularity.
The other is comics, which is where the conversation between
Characters considered "popular" would, by definition, not have their series canceled. The other point that sol_bad makes is that OK, Ms. Marvel doesn't have an ongoing series, but neither does Deadpool. And that's fine; that would mean that, as far as comics go, Deadpool doesn't seem to be that popular either. Because otherwise his series wouldn't get axed.
The "authentic perspective" part is more that it's coming from a Muslim woman from a diaspora writing and telling the story (apart from the superheroics)... Rather than a non-Muslim, non-diaspora (Pakistan, Jordan, etc) person writing what THEY think a Muslim American family would be like.
Kinda like it was somewhat inauthentic showing black characters behaving in stereotypical fashion in 80s movies because they were written by white men. Or almost all native American characters until relatively recently.
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CaptainSlayAHo
Banned
I'm not trying to bash any of them in particular, but are you really telling me that you don't see a trend here?
Like you mentioned, I'd care less if they were good, but shang chi was kind of the exception, and just to be clear I'm talking about phase 4 as a whole
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Ah. That's very reasonable and fair.
I will say though -- for example, I'm Afro-Caribbean myself, right? So let's say an Afro-Caribbean dude writes about my native country. Sure, that's legit. That's... ugh... authentic.
But if some native-born American white dude decided to write on his experiences of living down in the island for 20 years, even though he's writing from a "third person" perspective, he was still there, and may even provide some insight into the culture that we may find interesting. So in some ways it has its own authenticity. So I'm not gonna hate on it.
In fact, the more people (of all backgrounds, races, and creeds) that write about my original culture, the better!
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
in the comics, Captain America has been like 3 or 4 different people... Steve, John Walker, Bucky Barnes and now Sam Wilson. 3 white guys and one black guy. Sam was the only one Steve GAVE the shield and name to.
In the comics, both Shuri AND T'Challa are Black Panthers... I think they're going to either raise T'Challa from the grave (Bast should have that ability since her brother, Khonshu, did the same for Moon Knight) OR bring in a different T'Challa from the multiverse.
America Chavez isn't replacing Stephen Strange. Her character is more Young Avengers adjacent.
Kate Bishop has long been like a sister or daughter to Clint Barton. They both share the moniker. I think they're doing the same in the MCU.
Rhodey replaced Stark for a time while tony was going through his Demon in a Bottle storyline... He's done it other times since then also. But he's staying War Machine in the MCU. And Riri didn't replace Tony either. And now that Tony is back in the comics, they're BOTH active.
Icarus in The Eternals isn't really a villain. An antagonist, yes, but not a villain.
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Doom85
Member
Plus, with modern technology it’s not that difficult to either research a country, culture, etc. even if one hasn’t lived there or get into contact with those who do. Stephen King in his book “On Writing” at one point tore into the whole “write what you know” line as while he doesn’t fully disagree, he felt it was too often used as an excuse by writers to limit what they wrote. King pointed out he wanted to write a story and one of his characters was a lawyer. But King obviously didn’t go to law school and didn’t even watch much legal shows, but rather than cutting the character out he reached out and consulted people who ere lawyers and such and thus got all the info he needed to make the character feel at least reasonably accurate. King stated he probably got a few details wrong but if ultimately the representation feels authentic enough then most readers who know all the details would still go with it.
When Studio Wit made the anime Great Pretender, a series following a team of con artists from all over the world (a Japanese guy, an Iraqi woman, a Belgian guy, and a white woman, not sure of the last one’s ethnicity/nationality) who go to scam corrupt rich people out of their money in the locales of Los Angeles, Singapore, London, and Shanghai, well I bet most of the writers had not visited most of those locales themselves. But obviously they did some level of research and went for it. I’m not saying every little detail was accurate but it was cool to see an anime explore a bunch of countries and not just Japan. And don’t get me wrong, I love Japan, but it’s cool when the occasional anime ventures outside of it in terms of countries and such.
CaptainSlayAHo
Banned
I'm not saying that these things don't exist in the comics, I'm saying that it's not a coincidence that these are all happening alongside each other
I haven't said anything about quality outside of that phase 4 has been pretty bad as a whole, and this isn't an unpopular opinion. The quote I responded to was asking if there's an agenda, all put together it's pretty clear
Doom85
Member
You’re right, it’s not a coincidence, because plenty of the OG actors either wanted to move on or will want to move on soon so they go with some of the well known characters in the comics who carried on the mantles.
I mean, I didn’t consider it an “agenda” that it took 10 years into the MCU before we finally got a movie with a non-white lead. So likewise I don’t consider it an agenda with what’s being done with Phase 4 and beyond. And besides, Peter Parker is planned to have 3 more movies at least, Strange will have at least one more, and Thor will have at least one more (not to mention bringing in F4, eventually X-men, and Deadpool). The actors of the white characters who seemingly do want to keep making MCU movies aren’t being forced out or anything. If they were being forced to retire, then yes there would be an agenda at play.
CaptainSlayAHo
Banned
And yet they aren't being replaced by white males, certainly not an agenda
And it was certainly an agenda that it started off with white males, it was a safer bet,and it obviously paid off.
Phase one was pretty bad too outside of iron man fwiw so I'm not saying white man good or anything like that
But to ignore that they're steering away from white males is ignorant, and is certainly an agenda,just like it was filling it with them at the beginning.