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[Outdoor Miner]

Sri Lanka has given 25k to the Red Cross..maybe that's what the other countries should do as the US govt isn't accepting help.

Woah woah woah, slow down there bud. We'll accept help. Just let's get those shoes first!

Have you seen those new Prada's?

 

[DarienA]

Rice stated that "no help that will assist will be refused".

She then added that if someone could point her to a good sale on pumps she'd be much appreciative...

 

[Red Scarlet]

:lol. Well, yesterday all outside aid seems to have been turned down..then as I typed that a thing at the bottom said the thing about Rice.

 

[Matrix]

not defending anyone here but how can the mayor of New Orleans help people stay together? There are no communications, you can't get to half the city. No offense to anyone but i don't think you can compare the two mayors with the two situations

I wasnt comparing the two mayors,both events are horrible beyond words,but Diablos felt the need to bash Guliani when he wasnt even here in NYC.

 

[ToxicAdam]

For Red Mercury and others:



New York Times:




And finally, The Chicago Tribune:



But of course, I don't think any of this would make any difference to Bush haters.

Nope, it will all get ignored.

 

[quin]

I wasnt comparing the two mayors,both events are horrible beyond words,but Diablos felt the need to bash Guliani when he wasnt even here in NYC.

I know, I wasn't meaning that you did. I prolly should have quoted him but i picked yours instead

 

[Red Scarlet]

Nope, it will all get ignored.

Just like what you are ignoring.

 

[Slurpy]

Just read the RN transcripts. Good Lord...

Some of us give to charity without having to announce it to the world.

No fucking kidding. And this is called a 'discussion forum'. You know- for discussion. If someone has to publically make it known that they've donated to give their action self-worth- so be it. Others don't need to. It certainly doesnt increase the effectiveness of their donation.

 

[ToxicAdam]

But the pathetic excuse for a governor they have down there in La is #1 in my book. But its the entire political culture in the state that is as much to blame for what has transpired.
]

I don't think this can be stressed enough. If people are looking for someone to blame. Here is where the initial slow response time should be levied against.

 

[themadcowtipper]

. Others don't need to. It certainly doesnt increase the effectiveness of their donation.

But it does increase the size of their penis.....

 

[Diablos]

So in the eyes of Diablos if one mayor has the balls to show anger in an interview that makes another Mayor who went through hell and helped a city stay together in a time of crisis a turd compared to the other one.


Classic.

I'm glad you've never been pissed once in your entire life, Matrix.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I'm glad you've never been pissed once in your entire life, Matrix.

Ironic to grant some politicians the freedom to be human, but not others.

 

[Matrix]

I'm glad you've never been pissed once in your entire life, Matrix.

GRRRR IM PISSED IM A BETTER POSTER THAN YOU NOW TURD

edit- Comparing one mayor to the other was just pointless.

Wait I shouldnt say compare cause you really didnt.

 

[dskillzhtown]

Thought I would see some joy in this thread that help is finally making it to the people who needed it.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Speaking of rose colored glasses, Laura Bush is spinning better than her husband ever could.

Man it's gotta be rough when she is out so early.

 

[Miguel]

El Salvador has offered help to the police in NO.

Go El Salvador

 

[Miguel]

77230

Astrodome Zipcode.

Not quite

One Reliant Park, Houston, Texas 77054

 

[FiRez]

El Salvador has offered help to the police in NO.

:lol :lol :lol seriously?
sorry, but with the very high levels of criminality near here I can't believe that

 

[Red Scarlet]

Not quite

One Reliant Park, Houston, Texas 77054

Well, that's what CNN said for it. For the people inside to get stuff sent to them, probably.

Not the physical address for the Astrodome (ie, the earlier talk of a possible zipcode for IN the Astrodome).

 

[ManaByte]

The burning has begun:

 

[ConfusingJazz]

But, but .. it was TOO HARD for them. You don't understand how DIFFICULT it is.

Why isn't Biloxi and Gulfport experiencing the same kinds of problems with looting and shooting? What is the difference?

They are having some problems, but no where near the scale for a couple of reasons.

1. Population
2. New Orleans is a fucking lake.
3. You sir, are an idiot.

Now, number 3 really isn't affecting the situation in the south right now, but it is shaping your perception of it.

 

[WedgeX]

How the hell can you let a fleet of Buses sit around and let get trashed when you knew you were going to need to get people out?

That's really ridiculous, considering this quote from the NY Times....

Brian Wolshon, an engineering professor at Louisiana State University who served as a consultant on the state's evacuation plan, said little attention was paid to moving out New Orleans's "low-mobility" population - the elderly, the infirm and the poor without cars or other means of fleeing the city, about 100,000 people.

At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence."

...



http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02response.html?pagewanted=1

 

[Lo-Volt]

At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence."

What?

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Not quite

One Reliant Park, Houston, Texas 77054

Nope.

General Delivery, Houston, TX 77230

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory/3335968

 

[Red Scarlet]

Quite. (thanks Jazz for the confirmation, I was hoping I typed it down correctly)

The U.S. Postal Service announced this morning that evacuees at the Astrodome will be able to receive mail as early as Saturday.

The service created a special ZIP code to handle the mail: 77230.

Anyone who thinks they may have a friend or loved one sheltered at the Astrodome should address letters by name, with the address General Delivery, Houston, TX 77230.

I wonder if they'll allow donations directly there of stuff people need, if it's possible.

 

[boredJonathan]

How about at the Superdome? Where you are telling thousands to go, but have no plan on how to get them out?

Sorry, I just don't see how all of this could have been mobilized under such short notice of just how severe this huricane was going to be. I'll definately concede that things could have been better handled just to be safe, but your point isn't very logical or well thought out in terms of realistic actions.

 

[Lo-Volt]

"The big disconnect in New Orleans." CNN.

 

[SlickWilly223]

Sorry, I just don't see how all of this could have been mobilized under such short notice of just how severe this huricane was going to be. I'll definately concede that things could have been better handled just to be safe, but your point isn't very logical or well thought out in terms of realistic actions.

Yah, the problem with most people is that they don't realize how terrible a category 5 hurricane is... it's hard to survive it. And I was watching the Weather Channel before the storm hit, and Meteorologists had NO IDEA the storm would have turned out to be a Cat. 5.

So, when everyone's taken by surprise by a hurricane, of course a massive evac. is going to be pretty difficult. Especially when you have to relocate everyone with food, water, and housing. It sounds damn near impossible.

 

[Guileless]

When your leisure time revolves around gaming and the internet, not having electricity for an extended period gives you a lot of time to think. From reading most of this thread, it is obvious that many of you (especially international members) do not understand the complexities of federalism or the extreme pressures on state budgets. The answers are not derived by simply accepting things that reinforce your pre-conceived political beliefs, or by making sweeping conclusions based on what you saw politicians saying or doing on CNN for the 30 minutes you watched it that day.

First of all, the federal police power is very limited. The actual planning and execution is the responsibility of state and local officals. In fact, it is generally illegal for the federal government to do any of this unless a state government specifically requests it. And it must be said that by most accounts, Lousiana has been misgoverned for a long time.

As the article posted below said, a cost/benefit analysis was conducted years ago and the authorities decided to make the levee strong enough to withstand a category 3 storm. Obviously we now know this was a bad decision in the long run, but it was a political decision that was the product of disparate factors. Right now on 9/2/05 we know that a giant meteor could strike earth and end all life as we know it, but we're not spending billions on a plan to combat this possiblity because it is considered too remote to be worth the expense.

Elected officials have to deal with their constituencies, and it's safe to assume that not even New Orleanians would have accepted higher taxes or reduced services in order to fund an expensive, comprehensive plan to deal with a worst-case scenario that was, for practical purposes, unimaginable before Monday. Obviously it is very easy today to say "well they should have done x and y and obviously this would not have happened." But consider for a moment thinking about this before it actually happened.

Imagine you are charged with developing a plan for this eventuality. For hundreds of miles, there are no bridges, no communications, no power, no way to travel reliably, not even any certainty as to the extent of the damage. The homes of police and other authorities have also been destroyed and they are understandably concerned about their own families primarily. The entire infrastructure used to deal with emergencies of normal scale is obliterated. Before this actually happened, it was simply beyond the power of our society to imagine and prepare for. It's human nature.

Anticpated criticism: But it was the government's job to anticipate and prepare for this.
It is their job to prepare for all crises. They allocated their limited resources and made plans to respond to the kind of crises that have happened before (e.g. Category 3 storms confined to a reasonable area), not an all-encompassing disaster such as this. Again, you can fault them today but they made plans based on reasonable expectations and personal experience, which is what we all do every day.

Anticipated criticism: Look at how awful things are, somebody must have fucked up because this isn't supposed to happen.
Things are awful. I am physically sickened when I look at these pictures. And it's natural to want to blame someone, especially the affected people. But when you pull back and look at this with a critical eye, you see that it was our entire system that failed. The failure could be cost-benefit analysis or our symbiotic reliance on the staples of modern life--instantaneous communication, fast and easy travel, cheap and plentiful energy. But it's a systemic problem, not the fault of Politician You Don't Like or Politician Who Doesn't Look Confident on TV.

No system is perfect, including ours. It performs well most of the time, but not in a catastrophe of this magnitude that essentially takes us back to a pre-modern period. Just because we are largely insulated from this type of thing now in 2005 doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

"The big disconnect in New Orleans." CNN.

That was pretty damn good. CNN was cutting through garbage, what took them so long to finally do something like this?

 

[Red Scarlet]

I think more people (myself included) are angry at the lack of day 1/2 response for aid. Think of how many people could have been saved since then if they got stuff/help there sooner. That's what I'm mad about, the deaths that could have been averted.

What happened was not unimaginable, either. It was warned about for years.

 

[teepo]

When your leisure time revolves around gaming and the internet, not having electricity for an extended period gives you a lot of time to think. From reading most of this thread, it is obvious that many of you (especially international members) do not understand the complexities of federalism or the extreme pressures on state budgets. The answers are not derived by simply accepting things that reinforce your pre-conceived political beliefs, or by making sweeping conclusions based on what you saw politicians saying or doing on CNN for the 30 minutes you watched it that day.

First of all, the federal police power is very limited. The actual planning and execution is the responsibility of state and local officals. In fact, it is generally illegal for the federal government to do any of this unless a state government specifically requests it. And it must be said that by most accounts, Lousiana has been misgoverned for a long time.

As the article posted below said, a cost/benefit analysis was conducted years ago and the authorities decided to make the levee strong enough to withstand a category 3 storm. Obviously we now know this was a bad decision in the long run, but it was a political decision that was the product of disparate factors. Right now on 9/2/05 we know that a giant meteor could strike earth and end all life as we know it, but we're not spending billions on a plan to combat this possiblity because it is considered too remote to be worth the expense.

Elected officials have to deal with their constituencies, and it's safe to assume that not even New Orleanians would have accepted higher taxes or reduced services in order to fund an expensive, comprehensive plan to deal with a worst-case scenario that was, for practical purposes, unimaginable before Monday. Obviously it is very easy today to say "well they should have done x and y and obviously this would not have happened." But consider for a moment thinking about this before it actually happened.

Imagine you are charged with developing a plan for this eventuality. For hundreds of miles, there are no bridges, no communications, no power, no way to travel reliably, not even any certainty as to the extent of the damage. The homes of police and other authorities have also been destroyed and they are understandably concerned about their own families primarily. The entire infrastructure used to deal with emergencies of normal scale is obliterated. Before this actually happened, it was simply beyond the power of our society to imagine and prepare for. It's human nature.

Anticpated criticism: But it was the government's job to anticipate and prepare for this.
It is their job to prepare for all crises. They allocated their limited resources and made plans to respond to the kind of crises that have happened before (e.g. Category 3 storms confined to a reasonable area), not an all-encompassing disaster such as this. Again, you can fault them today but they made plans based on reasonable expectations and personal experience, which is what we all do every day.

Anticipated criticism: Look at how awful things are, somebody must have fucked up because this isn't supposed to happen.
Things are awful. I am physically sickened when I look at these pictures. And it's natural to want to blame someone, especially the affected people. But when you pull back and look at this with a critical eye, you see that it was our entire system that failed. The failure could be cost-benefit analysis or our symbiotic reliance on the staples of modern life--instantaneous communication, fast and easy travel, cheap and plentiful energy. But it's a systemic problem, not the fault of Politician You Don't Like or Politician Who Doesn't Look Confident on TV.

No system is perfect, including ours. It performs well most of the time, but not in a catastrophe of this magnitude that essentially takes us back to a pre-modern period. Just because we are largely insulated from this type of thing now in 2005 doesn't mean it can't happen.

you need an award.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

For Red Mercury and others:



New York Times:




And finally, The Chicago Tribune:



But of course, I don't think any of this would make any difference to Bush haters.

You do realize that the majority of the criticism - the staggering, overwhelming majority - is for how the President and others have failed to handle the situation this week, right? Almost everyone admits that while the levee situation was far from ideal in NO that no single entity could've have fixed it, nor would it have been prepared for this kind of disaster, anyway. Right now, people are outraged because the Feds did almost nothing for the critical first few days, despite all of the evidence that a terrible situation was becoming worse by the hour.

All the entire world has heard for the last few years is how Bush is a hero for his actions in crisis (from his own mouth and various mouthpieces), how DHS is necessary to make emergency response even better, and seen the propaganda of training exercises. We now know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, exactly how valuable that was if you are poor and black. Does anyone think response would've taken this long had a comparable disaster occurred in Texas? How about a tornado in a largely white area of Kansas?

The Katrina aftermath required immediate federal assistance that was well out of the goddamn mayor's power, and the city didn't get it. They still aren't.

 

[The Chosen One]

"The big disconnect in New Orleans." CNN.

Good article.

Since when did the media grow a big sack of balls. Hopefully it won't just shrivel away again in a couple of weeks.

 

[boredJonathan]

For Red Mercury and others:

New York Times:

And finally, The Chicago Tribune:

But of course, I don't think any of this would make any difference to Bush haters.

Man, you really are disconnected from reality. Show me facts and I'll go with it, what the hell makes you think that I'm not a rational person?

Unfortunately your comments don't really give me much for debate. First off, no links? Come on man, its commen practice here to link to what you quote how the hell else are we supposed to know the context of the things being said? A bit more troubling considering you don't even source your first quote. At this point I probably would ignore your post, but since you seem to want to try so hard, you can dig back up the sources and then we can actually try and discuss this.

 

[sonicfan]

Sorry, I just don't see how all of this could have been mobilized under such short notice of just how severe this huricane was going to be. I'll definately concede that things could have been better handled just to be safe, but your point isn't very logical or well thought out in terms of realistic actions.

Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation & Sheltering Plan

They have had these plans in place for years, knew one day a cat 4/5 was going to hit them, yet sat around and about all they did was tell people to leave.

The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating.

 

[Mashing]

That CNN article made FEMA chief Micheal Brown and Homeland Security director Michael Chertoff look like complete and utter idiots. How can be be so misinformed and outright lie about the situation? Idiots.

 

[Drensch]

That CNN article made FEMA chief Micheal Brown and Homeland Security director Michael Chertoff look like complete and utter idiots.

I'd say the situation we're in does that by itself.

 

[boredJonathan]

Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation & Sheltering Plan

They have had these plans in place for years, knew one day a cat 4/5 was going to hit them, yet sat around and about all they did was tell people to leave.

Lets try this again.

Sorry, I just don't see how all of this could have been mobilized under such short notice of just how severe this huricane was going to be. I'll definately concede that things could have been better handled just to be safe, but your point isn't very logical or well thought out in terms of realistic actions

Man power- Who would drive all of these busses to the SuperDome? Would they be able to pull the police convoy to route the busses there in an orderly fashion?

Time- The hurricane was upgraded to a Cat 4 just before it hit landfall, even if they suddenly had the availble manpower to clear a path through all of the already mobile citizens evacuating, how much time before it was just simply unsafe to drive them in the current conditions?

Resources - Where would the gas for all of these busses come from? By all accounts gas is neigh impossible to come by down there. So you get the busses down there, and you manage to keep them intact through the storm, and you manage to maintain a good enough order to drive on out of the SuperDome. How far can you get before you are just literally out of gas? (perhaps they would be able to get far enough away, I'm not sure here, but its another aspect to add into the equation of getting prepared for in a matter of hours.)

So, while I agree that its great they had these plans on the table, there was not much they could do in the situation they were facing down. Does that make sense?

 

[Lo-Volt]

Good article.

Since when did the media grow a big sack of balls. Hopefully it won't just shrivel away again in a couple of weeks.

It only took the death of a city. Nevertheless, I agree with your sentiments.

(And if you need a media organization with testicles on a permanent basis, I can't stress enough that the BBC is the closest thing you're going to get. Their news bulletins usually seen by flagship BBC One viewers can be seen online if you have realplayer. On news.bbc.co.uk look on the upper right for a video news prompt. When the new window opens, look on the very bottom right for the latest bulletin that aired on BBC One.)

 

[Mashing]

I'd say the situation we're in does that by itself.

Of course, but when it's in summarized such as it was there it because more apparent to people who haven't or can't keep up with all the developments (I'm at work so I don't have much time to browse this thread or news sites).

 

[Diablos]

Condi Rice of course had to bring 9/11 into the picture once again when the war was brought up.

I think they'll use 9/11 as an example until the end of 2008.

 

[ToxicAdam]

They are having some problems, but no where near the scale for a couple of reasons.

1. Population
2. New Orleans is a fucking lake.
3. You sir, are an idiot.

Now, number 3 really isn't affecting the situation in the south right now, but it is shaping your perception of it.

1) Its economies of scale. A city of 50k should have the same resources as 500k.

2) 80% of a city underwater is the same as 80% of a city buried in rubble.


The difference is planning and leadership.

 

[whytemyke]

It sucks.... I see Bush out there comforting people and all that, and I really wish that I felt it was genuine. I WANT to look at him and see somebody who's not doing this to gain political points... but I don't. And it seriously fucking sucks... its like finding out there's no Santa Clause all over again.

My dad just told me that he heard on the news that Tony Blair deployed 3 of Her Majesty's Naval Ships filled with supplies-- food, water, beds, sleeping bags, sheets, clothes, etc-- and has come out and said that we're such strong allies, we'd do the same for them, etc, and they're positively going to do everything they can to help us out. He also released their international oil reserves to go to the US.

Anyone else notice that Sri Lanka donated $25,000 to the American Red Cross? Fucking phenomenal.... they're in the middle of still rebuilding their shit and they still managed to scrape up some dough to float us. Am I too wrong in saying that the US doesn't really deserve the outpouring of good will that we're getting? I'm just glad the rest of the world can understand that the people in the south have nothing to do with the reasons that they don't like us, in general.

 

[Mrbob]

Buhs is stuttering right now on MSNBC. Doing a press stint.

A flow of progress....yeah, ok. He's stumbling all over the place. Yikes.

"I'm gonna fly out here in a minute but I want to let you know I'm not gonna forget what I've seen."

Oh boy. A lot of hard work ahead. This sounds familiar.

 

[Phoenix]

Folks I'm going to be out of touch for the next several days. I am heading down to Houston to get people on their way back to Atlanta and once they have the resources they need I am heading down to New Orleans to try and get people that I have made contact with today. I'll try to be in contact with folks and communicate when I can, but I will likely be out of touch for several days.


Talk to you when I get back!

-Greg

 

[Mrbob]

Folks I'm going to be out of touch for the next several days. I am heading down to Houston to get people on their way back to Atlanta and once they have the resources they need I am heading down to New Orleans to try and get people that I have made contact with today. I'll try to be in contact with folks and communicate when I can, but I will likely be out of touch for several days.


Talk to you when I get back!

-Greg

I've been reading about what you've been doing the last couple days. It is really a good thing!

 

[Dan]

:lol

Anyone watching Bush's speech right now? He literally had someone whisper beside him to tell him what to say.

Otherwise, the whole thing is more bullshit thanking of government officials and fake compassion.

 

[Y2Kev]

Wow. Just saw inside the Superdome.

Garbage EVERYWHERE, crap on the field....light pouring through the holes in the ceiling....so depressing...

 

[ManaByte]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/02/D8CC9VLGE.html

"The cavalry is and will continue to arrive," said Lt. Gen. Steven Blum of the National Guard.

At the New Orleans Convention Center, some of the thousands of storm victims awaiting their deliverance applauded, threw their hands heavenward and screamed, "Thank you, Jesus!" as the camouflage-green trucks and hundreds of soldiers arrived in this increasingly desperate and lawless city.

"Lord, I thank you for getting us out of here," said Leschia Radford.

But there was also anger and profane catcalls.

"Hell no, I'm not glad to see them. They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em. I'll be glad when 100 buses show up," said 46-year-old Michael Levy, whose words were echoed by those around him yelling, "Hell, yeah! Hell yeah!"

"We've been sleeping on the ... ground like rats," Levy said. "I say burn this whole ... city down."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randall-robinson/new-orleans_b_6643.html

It is reported that black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive.