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[Shiggy]

Many people are saying that being vulnerable is part of doing the things she's doing, but it's funny how this is exclusive to a female action hero. Male action heroes, even the ones in Tomb Raider itself, do not display the same type of vulnerability and exhaustion that the rebooted Lara does. The Mountain Peak introduction has so many instances of her showing emotional and physical fragility and meekness that would be considered weird if a male action hero would display the same. Being fragile and vulnerable is something much more common to female characters, so it's sad that Lara falls into the same eye-rolling characterization.

But is that really the case? Aren't there enough stories (maybe not in gaming), in which a male hero is completely devastated and demoralized by what is happening?

You seemingly want to pin it down to the argument of feminist extremists. But that fails to acknowledge that female characters can be portrayed in different ways. If it was up to this extreme view, the depiction of females would always be heroine-like, which makes it more than questionable whether they really want diversity, or instead follow some other agenda.

I think your criticism is valid, the whiny Lara isn't fitting. But don't try to pin it down to sexism.

 

[DevilDog]

I really have to disagree with this. The old Lara Croft was a sex symbol first and everything else was a secondary. The new Lara Croft is more humane, stronger female, with clear goal and challenges.

The fact that this thread is made saddens me, considering we all strive for better representation of female character is gaming. The fact that we ignore how sleazy the old design of her is very disappointing.

Wait what is wrong with being a sex symbol? I consider george Clooney and Harrison Ford to be huge sex symbols of their time, but that never detracted from their characters in their movies.
I've played the first new Lara Croft and I have to say that I prefer the older Lara croft (legend, anniversary, underworld) a whole lot more.

New Lara isn't human at all, she is a terrible character IMO, always crying and whining while having God Mode on and killing everyone and everything. The older lara was by far a stronger and more powerful character imo. Not to mention her gameplay was far more interesting. She was like an Olympic champion.

Not to say I was 100% satisfied with her appearance, but it was far better and more interesting that what we have now.

 

[120v]

Wait what is wrong with being a sex symbol? I consider george Clooney and Harrison Ford to be huge sex symbols of their time,

whether it's "wrong" or not is above my paygrade to say but Lara of the 90s was 95% T&A and 5% Indiana Jones. there were nude mods immediately

she was a sex symbol borne purely of sexual persuasion. if we're talking specifically about her origins

 

[Bastables]

But is that really the case? Aren't there enough stories (maybe not in gaming), in which a male hero is completely devastated and demoralized by what is happening?

You seemingly want to pin it down to the argument of feminist extremists. But that fails to acknowledge that female characters can be portrayed in different ways. If it was up to this extreme view, the depiction of females would always be heroine-like, which makes it more than questionable whether they really want diversity, or instead follow some other agenda.

I think your criticism is valid, the whiny Lara isn't fitting. But don't try to pin it down to sexism.

Trying to shade feminism as rabbied extremism seems pretty misguided when we have the executive producer of the game on record saying the game is supposed to elicit masculine protective instinct for Lara because the charecter is a her.

They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

"She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character."

http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

 

[DevilDog]

whether it's "wrong" or not is above my paygrade to say but Lara of the 90s was 95% T&A and 5% Indiana Jones. there were nude mods immediately

she was a sex symbol borne purely of sexual persuasion. if we're talking specifically about her origins

I can admit I know nothing about her origins, I only looked at her throughout the games I've played which is legend and after.

And come on this is the internet, there are nudes for everything.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Many people are saying that being vulnerable is part of doing the things she's doing, but it's funny how this is exclusive to a female action hero. Male action heroes, even the ones in Tomb Raider itself, do not display the same type of vulnerability and exhaustion that the rebooted Lara does. The Mountain Peak introduction has so many instances of her showing emotional and physical fragility and meekness that would be considered weird if a male action hero would display the same - christ, just look at Jonah walking around like it's no big deal while Lara is clutching and grabbing herself. Being fragile and vulnerable is something much more common to female characters, so it's sad that Lara falls into the same eye-rolling characterization.

It's eye rolling that Lara walked around clutching herself in pain? Right in the beginning of the game a long, sharp shard completely punctures right through her side. Is she supposed to just shrug it off?

That's not being fragile, that's being human. Through all of the horrors she endured, she pressed on. A fragile person would've given up. Who entered a wolf den to retrieve a walker talkie on behalf of an injured man who sat back at a campsite?

As I recall Uncharted 2 opened with Drake in pretty bad shape. He wasn't bouncing around like some invulnerable action dude. He was slowly lumbering around in pain. I'll take more human characters any day over invincible action heroes.

 

[Audioboxer]

lol, so its a step back because she breathes too hard?

If anything, I appreciate the more realistic nature of her voice acting. If you're climbing mountains, running for your life, or stuck in the middle of a ice cold wasteland - you're going to be exerting yourself.

Anyone that hear Lara moans when she's tired/exerting/impaled/whatever in the game, and immediately think, "This is sexual!".....

I'd argue something is more wrong about you than the game itself.

Because that is just silly.

Gotta agree on those points. Being quick to always tie grunts/moaning to sexual noises really is something you're better off looking at the individual to question, than their argument, however nuanced it may be. It really is a personal perception issue as human beings make noise outside of sex. Trust me. As can some sexual encounters be rather silent, but there can be reasons for that!!!

With a very small minority of people I wonder if they can sit through a womens tennis match without feeling embarrassed or blushing? I mean sure the age old funny joke is there is some content on TV that if your parents walked passed your door as a young teen they'd think you were watching porn...

In a game it either comes across as funny at worst, if the devs over do it or the nature of game programming has some sound effects play for stupid things (a small drop/glitched fall has a grunt where it wouldn't in real life). At best it comes across as a decent attempt to emulate how the human body responds to exerting itself to extreme physical work out.

As for some of the other debates about Lara, I think there are good nuanced points on all sides of the debate, but as usual with videogame writing/characters, I forever deem it to be less "worthwhile" than TV/movie and real actors when it comes to being attached to political agenda. Gaming always comes up short because the second something becomes interactive and "gamey", as in we need tons of shooting/killing/crazy stuff most real people could not do, the illusion of reality becomes tested, and usually has to become suspended. Such as in TR/UC where you constantly pull off climbing feats pretty much no human being could do, or could do for hours on end. Or there is the mass murderer Drake argument some people seem to take far too seriously.

It is incredibly pulpy at best, and at worst just "game tier writing" which will forever have games slotted under TV/movies IMO. Nothing wrong with that though, the real enjoyment from gaming is the fact it is interactive. That is its biggest bonus compared to other media, such as TV and film. People who constantly want to try and get games writing to be of the same level as movies and TV really need to get their expectations in check at times. Sure we want the writing in gaming to always strive to improve, and in many regards it has improved incredibly over the past 10 years, but there is a reason it will probably always come just short of TV/films - The fact it is interactive and usually needs "gamey" elements in order to make sure it can be called a game... I mean sure some games, *cough*David Cage*, try to be interactive movies, and fail in many regards whilst maybe succeeding in some. Or we have the interactive "novels" that Telltale put out. So yeah there is space for various genres of games, but largely we could not have those types of games across the board, as a big factor in fun for many is interaction and gameplay.

I'll say it again though, when looking for political agenda, and I don't necessarily mean agenda in a negative way, you are much better off looking to real actors and seriously written and believable scripts than to look to games writing/games/gameplay. Far more respect and a clap of hands can be given to an actor who has played in and nailed a serious/political acting role, than some "mass murdering, unrealistic climbing freak" Nathan Drake. Video game characters as role models... eh.... I guess at best individual studios/developers or writers behind the characters are better to look to for inspiration or pushing a political point. And there sure I will agree it should be praised many are realizing not every game needs to be made for a teenage boy, as you know, gaming isn't tied to age and it certainly isn't tied to gender. Or it shouldn't have to be, everyone can play and enjoy games.

 

[SpideySenses]

New Lara talks to herself constantly too, which to me suggests the groaning is a sound design choice to minimize her being a mute character who is for the vast majority of the time on her own so can't speak to anyone.

 

[mcrommert]

My main problem would be that it's another story of a female character becoming strong because of trauma. It's a trope that has become very old.

Why would a man or woman become strong in that's kind of situation? Trauma is the correct answer...we become stronger through adversity...

 

[Screamapillar]

"Yet what I experienced in ROTR was constant moaning, exhaustion, gasps, and display of vulnerability."

She is human. What she went through in both of these games is something that would literally kill the average person. She was strong-willed and macho enough to be able to do the things in the game without dying, so I think cutting her some slack and letting her "gasp" and "moan" when she's falling down from cliffs, being hunted by tigers and bears, being exposed to the most exrtreme weather conditions, being shot at by a dozen people at once, and zip-lining down mountains, is okay. Unless you're saying even under these extreme conditions, women must maintain an aura of "not letting it bother them", which I feel is more offensive to women than what you're suggesting the games have done.

Put another way: I feel that if you replaced Lara with a man, but otherwise was the same character, you would hear/see the same noises/ body language, given the harsh conditions the character is facing. It would simply be at a lower register.

 

[petran79]

Many people are saying that being vulnerable is part of doing the things she's doing, but it's funny how this is exclusive to a female action hero. Male action heroes, even the ones in Tomb Raider itself, do not display the same type of vulnerability and exhaustion that the rebooted Lara does. The Mountain Peak introduction has so many instances of her showing emotional and physical fragility and meekness that would be considered weird if a male action hero would display the same - christ, just look at Jonah walking around like it's no big deal while Lara is clutching and grabbing herself. Being fragile and vulnerable is something much more common to female characters, so it's sad that Lara falls into the same eye-rolling characterization.

Games with male vulnerable heroes are a rarity indeed. Not only that but age ratings involving male suffering or eroticism in mainstream media, are usually higher than their female counterparts. Regardinng male vulnerability one such game was Phantasmagoria 2.

Ironically, it suffers from the same issues as new Tomb Raider

http://www.adventuregamers.com/articles/view/18190

Let’s make one thing clear right away: this game is not for the faint of heart (or stomach). In its five chapters, Phantasmagoria 2 manages to show torture, child abuse, extreme sexual habits, gruesome deaths, both male and female nudity, and disgusting details of blood and offal. Many of these design choices are unnecessary, while the constant sexual innuendo becomes rapidly redundant and the explicit graphical violence often appears meaningless. While some of the disturbing scenes may actually succeed in shocking and frightening the player thanks to the high quality of the FMV presentation, others appear to be there only to heighten the anticipated scandal sorrounding the game. The storyline, which for the most part is suitable for an enjoyably camp horror B-movie, in the end devolves into a laughable mess which indulges in tacky particulars to hide its other faults and lack of depth. Furthermore, the script, while fitting when dealing with the most repulsive aspects of the game, becomes a bit cheesy when dealing with emotions, relationships and character development. Even so, the story still manages to be fun and entertaining, if one is favourably disposed towards raunchy horror movies like Society or Hellraiser. In addition, the game – whilst petty and often dull when dealing with mature themes such as ruined childhood, internal struggle and mental illness – was ahead of its time in at least one regard: the hinted bisexuality of the main character and the fact that not only is Trevor gay but also that his friendship with Curtis is portrayed as natural and genuine make this game a rarity even today, considering how many games still show gay characters as exaggerated clichés.


A very good game that keeps a balance in both male and female vulnerability, even including race, is the adaptation of the popular scifi novel "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream". Computer games were so far ahead in visual and text narrative, so I see it as a storytelling setback in general, not just TR.

 

[Bastables]

Gotta agree on those points. Being quick to always tie grunts/moaning to sexual noises really is something you're better off looking at the individual to question, than their argument, however nuanced it may be. It really is a personal perception issue as human beings make noise outside of sex. Trust me. As can some sexual encounters be rather silent, but there can be reasons for that!!!

With a very small minority of people I wonder if they can sit through a womens tennis match without feeling embarrassed or blushing? I mean sure the age old funny joke is there is some content on TV that if your parents walked passed your door as a young teen they'd think you were watching porn...

In a game it either comes across as funny at worst, if the devs over do it or the nature of game programming has some sound effects play for stupid things (a small drop/glitched fall has a grunt where it wouldn't in real life). At best it comes across as a decent attempt to emulate how the human body responds to exerting itself to extreme physical work out.

As for some of the other debates about Lara, I think there are good nuanced points on all sides of the debate, but as usual with videogame writing/characters, I forever deem it to be less "worthwhile" than TV/movie and real actors when it comes to being attached to political agenda. Gaming always comes up short because the second something becomes interactive and "gamey", as in we need tons of shooting/killing/crazy stuff most real people could not do, the illusion of reality becomes tested, and usually has to become suspended. Such as in TR/UC where you constantly pull off climbing feats pretty much no human being could do, or could do for hours on end.

Tennis, one of the most obvious generator of female first, athlete second process of sexualisation in marketing, clothing and media commentary is your example of women vocalising in combat situations as perfectly normal?

 

[ajjow]

Unfortunately this will always be an issue as no one can agree on what it means to be female.

What do I mean by this? Masculinity has often been defined simply. Dating back to the days of the hunter gatherer It's been about having the biggest muscles and most resources. Obviously that doesn't express the full neuance of what it means to be male, but it's pretty close.

Feminity has never been that simple. As what it means to be a woman means different things to different women. This diversity within the community has lead to a variety of stereotypes and often the same behaviour can be viewed differently by different women. Take for instance the polarising figure of Kim Kardashian. To some her frequent posing nude is an empowering and liberating example of a confident woman secure in her sexuality. To others it's seen as a shameful and trashy use of sexuality by an insecure woman desperate for her 15 minutes of fame to last as long as possible.

How does this relate to Lara Croft. It means her every action is going to be viewed and analysed through the lense of the reviewers own preconceived notion of what it means to be a woman. To some a grunt is the sign of a person completing a challenging activity requiring intense physical exertion. To others it's some form of sexuality that's specifically designed to pander to the male player.

To me New Lara has the characterisation consistant with what it means to be a modern woman in 2016 and a degree of agency not often given to fictional characters. Especially female ones. Which is about as much as any fictional character can hope for from their creators. Lara's story might not fit anyone's ideal. But she's living her own story and that's the most important thing.

I clap to your words my friend. I never felt through TR2013, as I was playing, something like princess peach or the female character of Bioshock Infinite. She's just there living her life like Indiana Jones. Bad things happens and that's it.

However her characterization, as any movie or tv show, is exclusionary. She's too beatiful to be true. But no one seems to have a problem with good looking people. The problem is when they look too sexy.

 

[oni-link]

But is that really the case? Aren't there enough stories (maybe not in gaming), in which a male hero is completely devastated and demoralized by what is happening?

You seemingly want to pin it down to the argument of feminist extremists. But that fails to acknowledge that female characters can be portrayed in different ways. If it was up to this extreme view, the depiction of females would always be heroine-like, which makes it more than questionable whether they really want diversity, or instead follow some other agenda.

I think your criticism is valid, the whiny Lara isn't fitting. But don't try to pin it down to sexism.

This is where I'm at, while more diversity is always welcomed, especially in gaming where there is a clear issue, it's disheartening when every last thing is pounced upon

So we can't have fragile female characters in gaming at all without it being seen as a setback for female representation? So that immediately limits the kind of characters we can write for games

Imagine how films, games, TV shows etc would suffer, if we just stopped writing female characters who could be seen as vulnerable or fragile, or any other trait for that matter, even if that is only the start of their story arc

While the new TR games are by no means perfect (OP makes some good points) they represent women in a far better light than most games.

There is work to be done but it just feels like there isn't ever going to be a point where everyone will be happy until characterisation has been completely removed in favour of check list ticking

 

[Audioboxer]

Tennis, one of the most obvious generator of female first, athlete second process of sexualisation in marketing, clothing and media commentary is your example of women vocalising in combat situations as perfectly normal?

Tennis is a sport, so if you took away all the shady marketing or what not, guess what? The human body would still make grunting noises. I played a lot of tennis as a young one at a tennis club and shock horror, even kids made noises when trying to hit the tennis ball as hard as they could. Me included! So I can assure you you don't need a specific sexual organ to make noise.

So yeah. I have no issue using Tennis as an argument as it as you've now pointed out is stereotypically the one people lose their shit over.

I'll say it once more, I am accepting the human body responding to physical exertion and noise. I do not care about the marketing and media commentary around Tennis, those are irrelevant to proving the fact humans make noise when they do physically straining actions. Criticise them (marketing/media) as they may sure as hell deserve to be, but don't be obtuse about the factual point many will make those noises, grunts and sighs are part in parcel with extreme exercise/action.

Tennis is also funny as it is one of the sports as I said above some young teenagers had the "omg embarrassing" response as their tv might have been up loud. You know what though? That is precisely the reaction you'd expect from a teenager or younger, not a fully grown adult. Hence why I bring it up.

And as for why some other sports aren't brought up? Well Tennis for one is one of the most silent audience sports when it is in action. You don't hear shit during a football match because... audience? Cheering? Shouting? If that means you suspend belief that those athletes aren't making physical noises on the pitch, then, that is you suspending reality. IMO to then incorrectly push a political agenda because YOU have the issue with sexualizing grunts or noises you may hear during Tennis but can't in some other sports. As I said most of us grow out of that immaturity through puberty.

No that doesn't mean games always do it 1:1 faithfully with real life, I mentioned that above. Falling half a metre off a rock edge and going "UGHHHHH!" sounds a bit ridiculous. If you think that has been done to sexualize and not because you know, programming, coding and having immersion doesn't always work perfectly, then go ask the devs first about it rather than just deciding it is 100% some sort of pro-sex agenda. Most games are simply trying to be realistic, and as I covered as well, always have fallen short of real life acting. Where a real actor has a brain to decide no falling a metre doesn't require a massive scream, a game doesn't think for itself and relies on programming. I mean why else do we have Gay FIFA glitches? - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=497352 And yeah that is an extreme example, but I'm trying to show evidence for what most of us will admit, games are susceptible to immersion breaking bugs/abnormalities from time to time.

 

[Trup1aya]

I do not think it's any thing to do with normal reactions, under the relatively minor conditions of army basic training when trainees male and female are almost dropping from exhaustion from physical and mental exertion the majority do not vocalise much at all. They tend to shut down in attempts to outlast their trials.

CD Crofts moaning and grunting are for the benefit of the player, not from a reflection of a realistic character on the "edge of survival".

People who've "seen the elephant" tend to default to laconic or angry reactions in utterly inappropriate interactions which is probably a result of various levels of PTSD.

well, this is a dramatization, so we should be able tolerate some exaggeration for effect. It's no different than when you watch a movie or play. Perhaps it was done excessively in this game. Perhaps it isn't done enough in games that feature males (males are often depicted making difficult tasks appear easy, instead of showcasing the struggle of completing difficult tasks) Still to suggest that people don't vocalize during physical activity or animate in response to pain doesn't jive with reality. Listen to a game of football (american) right after the ball is snapped. Watch an episode of Naked and Afraid. You'll see some of the strongest people, male or female, exclaiming in response to being uncomfortable and/or struggling to overcome a physical obstacle. It's a human thing to do. So, there's nothing sexist about grunting or screaming while using an ice pick to climb a mountain in during an avalanche.

For the last 2 games, Lara has been accomplishing superhuman feats, simply put. Unlike most other action hero's, she's visually and audibly portrayed in a way that suggests a human has to be an exceptional specimen to pull off these feats, and even then it will be difficult. That's an advancement in action hero portrayal. However, She's very poorly written. It's not that the writing is sexist, it's just that there's no character development. Still her voice acting and animation convey nothing amounting to weakness or vulnerability.

 

[Kinyou]

Anyone that hear Lara moans when she's tired/exerting/impaled/whatever in the game, and immediately think, "This is sexual!".....

I'd argue something is more wrong about you than the game itself.

Because that is just silly.

I mean, I can see how people can feel that way if you hear it without any visuals and context. But the same usually goes for a birth scene on tv or women tennis. I find it a bit silly to overly fixate on it because it's simply what pain/exhaustion can sometimes sound like.

 

[Bastables]

Tennis is a sport, so if you took away all the shady marketing or what not, guess what? The human body would still make grunting noises. I played a lot of tennis as a young one at a tennis club and shock horror, even kids made noises when trying to hit the tennis ball as hard as they could. Me included! So I can assure you you don't need a specific sexual organ to make noise.

Yeah and my experience in the army indicated that even in the minor stresses of physical and mental exertion of thier first field exercises had pers vocalising less and less as coping mechanism, pouring what reserves they have to power through. This is before actual deployments were females and males tend to wards laconicism and inappropriate bursts of anger when back home but tend to emotionally flatline when over there.

Again Lara vocalising in game is for the benfit of the players, I've never heard anyone as noisy female or male in either training or deployment. Anecdotal I know but the tomb raider games arn't exactly post 90s female tennis..

 

[Flipyap]

I really have to disagree with this. The old Lara Croft was a sex symbol first and everything else was a secondary. The new Lara Croft is more humane, stronger female, with clear goal and challenges.

The fact that this thread is made saddens me, considering we all strive for better representation of female character is gaming. The fact that we ignore how sleazy the old design of her is very disappointing.

There is nothing "humane" about the new Lara. She's a crazed murderer who executes anyone who opposes her in ways so violent, they would make Gears of War bros blush.
Before the reboot, Crystal Dynamics started gradually limiting even the cartoon kind of violence the series was known for. In their remake of the first game, Lara kills exactly one human being (down from 5 in the original). For Tomb Raider Underworld, Crystal Dynamics recognized that a large portion of their audience doesn't want to kill anything, so they gave them the option of using tranquilizer guns instead. It was awesome, it seemed like the series was only getting smarter and more inclusive... and then it all went to hell.

Lara Croft was only treated as a sex object in advertisements. She was designed as an attractive cartoon character, but the games never made a big (or any kind of) deal out of it, so it never undermined or overshadowed her role as a capable protagonist. "Better representation" doesn't mean regulating pant leg length. Her shorts and cartoon proportions didn't make her a Bayonetta, Lara was a smart, capable character appropriate for basically all ages, which was incredibly important because she was the only female protagonist with any kind of visibility. Without that Lara, video games simply don't have those anymore and that's fucked up.

 

[ambar_hitman]

I liked first game. But I expected Lara to be way more badass in ROTR. Like dual wielding pistols and laughing on the face of danger.
I was disappointed.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yeah and my experience in the army indicated that even in the minor stresses of physical and mental exertion of thier first field exercises had pers vocalising less and less as coping mechanism, pouring what reserves they have to power through. This is before actual deployments were females and males tend to wards laconicism and inappropriate bursts of anger when back home but tend to emotionally flatline when over there.

Again Lara vocalising in game is for the benfit of the players, I've never heard anyone as noisy female or male in either training or deployment. Anecdotal I know but the tomb raider games arn't exactly post 90s female tennis..

I can't comment much on the Army as I'd be ignorant to, not having any first hand experience, but isn't it a stretch to compare a highly disciplined regime to a sport? I mean I get that the Army is probably the best example of physical exertion, so there is that. This is baseless but I would think in my head wouldn't it be frowned upon to be carelessly representing your exertion through loud noises as that goes against being cautious around an enemy? I don't doubt either in Tennis due to the fact a fair bit of it is actually a mental game, some players purposely exert themselves "louder" as a way of posturing up to their opponent. I guess not too much different than football players having the occasional push/fight. In that regard sure many humans could make an effort to censor their impulse to make an audible noise, but for everyone NOT in the Army, what would the point of this be? In Tennis if it is to stop pre-pubescent teens from getting all hot and bothered about grunting noises, it's no wonder Tennis players wouldn't give two shits about being quieter.

Lastly I wouldn't say it isn't not for the benefit of the players. Isn't most of gaming though? I mean reviewers and gamers alike take it upon themselves to praise "realism", whether it be graphical, writing or audio, so in some regards can you blame the devs for trying to push reality in game? As I've said previously it is not always done well, but like I also said as well it's up to you to be sensible about it and think are the devs simply trying, or that the devs some sadistic bunch of sexual deviants? It's not always the safe bet to just jump to the darkest extreme because "every gaming dev has to be out to make the hobby a darker, less appealing and more bigoted experience".

At the end of the day they could just take out every single noise Lara makes? ¯\_(&#12484_/¯ If gamers keep telling them it's not what they want, Lara being audible, maybe they will, eventually. Personally I think that would do very little to improve the game, but also I guess what does it really matter? Far more important things to being a good game than some bodily noises. Although many people do appreciate good audio tracks in games, from the scores, to the sound effects. Maybe that is just me though as as I said in one of my first posts I usually view it at worst as comical and out of place, at best, an attempt to be more realistic. I never really approach it with the "it must be sexism" first angle. For the most part unless there is evidence of a dev being shady I like to give most human beings the benefit of the doubt before dragging them through the mud. Now sexualization in general in the Tomb Raider games, yeah, I can get behind arguments on that. Especially when TR first released and it was all about the "huge breasts". Personally though I think that has been toned down over the years, and I don't really think audible grunts are now on the same level as TR once was to appeal to teenage boys.

I mean if anyone asks why Lara looks like she does now, toned and slim, then you kind of have to get a grip on what would be required to even do 50% of the swinging and climbing needed in real life. Being fit looking, and I mean fit in terms of body structure, not the slang way of saying attractive, is not instantly sexualization. It is simply a reflection of how you'd need to be in real life. Huge breasts however, even if normal for tons of women in real life, do little in a game when we're discussing a completely fictional character rather than an actor who has been born with large breasts and hasn't chosen them. Game characters are completely chosen, although sure some get based off of real people. Still I find there to be very little backing in the argument of why not huge breasts as they exist in real life?! They already have a history as mentioned from the first Tomb Raider, and in a male dominated industry you can accept why such choices get scrutinized and questioned.

 

[Messofanego]

I'm not sure we played the same game? The entire opening segment on the mountain consists of her crying and moaning and the animation work having her act fragile and bothered (e.g. clutching her arms around herself from the cold - look no further than Jonah who doesn't seem to be bothered at all). You can imagine how weird this would be by gender-swapping the character into a typically masculine character (say, Nathan Drake) who would never clutch themselves from the cold while wearing a big thick parka jacket.

Why is she clutching her arms? Haha this isn't her first rodeo in such an environment. As you say, Jonah has no problems. So dumb.

It's eye rolling that Lara walked around clutching herself in pain? Right in the beginning of the game a long, sharp shard completely punctures right through her side. Is she supposed to just shrug it off?

That's not being fragile, that's being human. Through all of the horrors she endured, she pressed on. A fragile person would've given up. Who entered a wolf den to retrieve a walker talkie on behalf of an injured man who sat back at a campsite?

As I recall Uncharted 2 opened with Drake in pretty bad shape. He wasn't bouncing around like some invulnerable action dude. He was slowly lumbering around in pain. I'll take more human characters any day over invincible action heroes.

umm we're talking about Rise of the Tomb Raider, not the Tomb Raider reboot which had the shard stabbed into her side. There's no reason for her to clutch her sides when Jonah doesn't.

 

[Manu]

Usually the defense brought up when it's pointed out how the gameplay and characterization are terrible is that it's an origin story and their trying to be more realistic, but there are many problems with this. Within the game itself the problem is that Lara goes from 0 to Rambo instantly which throws the idea of her being a novice completely out the window, and attempts at realism just make what happens in this game MORE ridiculous than if they didn't call attention to it.

The origin/reboot excuse fails in the face of the Core Tomb Raider games. Here is how we were introduced to Lara for the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHJuFhcRICE

To summarize: we are shown a magazine showing Lara on the cover saying that she caught bigfoot. She makes a witty remark rebuffing the advances of a man that hits on her. Natla offers her money and Lara tells her she only hunts for sport. Natla describes how dangerous and unexplored the adventure will be Lara smiles. Lara treks to Peru and opens the door to the caves. Her sherpa is attacked and she tries to save him but is unable to.

In this small cutscene we know all we really need to know about Lara. She's a famous, badass, confident adventurer who goes on adventures for the fun of it.

Core went on to flesh her out a bit. She got the adventure bug after her plane crashed in the Himalayas where she survived for several days before she was rescued. Her rich parents didn't approve of her lifestyle and sent her on adventure with famed archeologist Werner Von Croy to get it out of her system and eventually disowned her. Here's Lara on her first real adventure as cocky as ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTS1XvqRrCA

When Crystal Dynamics took over, for whatever reason, they decided Lara couldn't just WANT to be an adventurer. She needed something forcing her to do all this stuff. They changed her backstory so that her father was a famous adventurer, too, so she's just following in daddy's footsteps. And her reason for going on these adventures is because her mommy disappeared in the plane crash in the Himalayas and she wants to find her.

The 2013 reboot is even more inexplicable. They decided Lara's origin now is that she got stuck on rape and murder island with no experience yet already possessing superhuman climbing, jumping, and shooting powers. And somehow after witnessing several friends die horrific deaths, coming close to being raped and murdered herself, and suffering agonizing injuries we are to believe that she would want to do all of this again of her own volition. That's supposed to be more realistic?

This hits the nail in the head. I have no idea how this post is being ignored.

 

[Trup1aya]

Why is she clutching her arms? Haha this isn't her first rodeo in such an environment. As you say, Jonah has no problems. So dumb.


umm we're talking about Rise of the Tomb Raider, not the Tomb Raider reboot which had the shard stabbed into her side. There's no reason for her to clutch her sides when Jonah doesn't.

This is such a weird comment. Clutching arms in the cold is normal. The questions should be why isn't Jonah clutching his...

My guess is Lara recieved much more attention from animators because she's the main character. Regrettable, sure. But sexist...

 

[Haganeren]

I really have to disagree with this. The old Lara Croft was a sex symbol first and everything else was a secondary. The new Lara Croft is more humane, stronger female, with clear goal and challenges.

The fact that this thread is made saddens me, considering we all strive for better representation of female character is gaming. The fact that we ignore how sleazy the old design of her is very disappointing.

You should be proud instead, it means that everyone is taking this aspect of society seriously now. Everyone knows that the old Lara Croft was a sex symbol, this theads is a different take of it for the sake of discussion. (Like : Is the new Lara really as better as we thought ? Yes/No, that's a debate.)

15 years ago, i feel like that kind of discussion would have been a lot harder to do.

This is such a weird comment. Clutching arms in the cold is normal. The questions should be why isn't Jonah clutching his...

My guess is Lara recieved much more attention from animators because she's the main character. Regrettable, sure. But sexist...

When something is "sexist" that doesn't mean the people behind me wanted to do bad thing or think poorly of woman. That means it convey a hidden message that even developpers may not have though of it.
So even if the team wanted to do their best (and i'm sure that's what they wanted), it doesn't mean anything in the great shem of thing.

Hell, the old Lara wasn't even meant to be the sex symbol she become originally, the developpers really wanted her to be a stronge female equals to male hero... But we know how she is seen nowaday. (and for rightful reasons)

 

[Kinyou]

This is such a weird comment. Clutching arms in the cold is normal. The questions should be why isn't Jonah clutching his...

My guess is Lara recieved much more attention from animators because she's the main character. Regrettable, sure. But sexist...

Jonah has a lot of bodyfat while Lara obviously doesn't, so it actually makes sense that he'd freeze less. Of course questionable if they intentionally took that into consideration, but I also wouldn't put it completely behind them.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

we're talking about Rise of the Tomb Raider, not the Tomb Raider reboot which had the shard stabbed into her side. There's no reason for her to clutch her sides when Jonah doesn't.

But Jonah does.

I actually feel that her portrayal in the beginning of the first game is going too far in the attempt to convey her frailty. But during this particular scene? It really sounds nitpicky.

 

[droggg]

umm we're talking about Rise of the Tomb Raider, not the Tomb Raider reboot which had the shard stabbed into her side. There's no reason for her to clutch her sides when Jonah doesn't.

jeez talk about nit–picking...this much attention to detail is praised in any other game but because the character is female it's dumb? come on now...

 

[Messofanego]

Usually the defense brought up when it's pointed out how the gameplay and characterization are terrible is that it's an origin story and their trying to be more realistic, but there are many problems with this. Within the game itself the problem is that Lara goes from 0 to Rambo instantly which throws the idea of her being a novice completely out the window, and attempts at realism just make what happens in this game MORE ridiculous than if they didn't call attention to it.

The origin/reboot excuse fails in the face of the Core Tomb Raider games. Here is how we were introduced to Lara for the first time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHJuFhcRICE

To summarize: we are shown a magazine showing Lara on the cover saying that she caught bigfoot. She makes a witty remark rebuffing the advances of a man that hits on her. Natla offers her money and Lara tells her she only hunts for sport. Natla describes how dangerous and unexplored the adventure will be Lara smiles. Lara treks to Peru and opens the door to the caves. Her sherpa is attacked and she tries to save him but is unable to.

In this small cutscene we know all we really need to know about Lara. She's a famous, badass, confident adventurer who goes on adventures for the fun of it.

Core went on to flesh her out a bit. She got the adventure bug after her plane crashed in the Himalayas where she survived for several days before she was rescued. Her rich parents didn't approve of her lifestyle and sent her on adventure with famed archeologist Werner Von Croy to get it out of her system and eventually disowned her. Here's Lara on her first real adventure as cocky as ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTS1XvqRrCA

When Crystal Dynamics took over, for whatever reason, they decided Lara couldn't just WANT to be an adventurer. She needed something forcing her to do all this stuff. They changed her backstory so that her father was a famous adventurer, too, so she's just following in daddy's footsteps. And her reason for going on these adventures is because her mommy disappeared in the plane crash in the Himalayas and she wants to find her.

The 2013 reboot is even more inexplicable. They decided Lara's origin now is that she got stuck on rape and murder island with no experience yet already possessing superhuman climbing, jumping, and shooting powers. And somehow after witnessing several friends die horrific deaths, coming close to being raped and murdered herself, and suffering agonizing injuries we are to believe that she would want to do all of this again of her own volition. That's supposed to be more realistic?

Great point and comparison. Rebooted Lara Croft might have more reasonable proportions thanks to modern videogame technology but her character isn't close to being as confident and not needing personal motivations as 90s Lara. 90s Lara was inspired by Tank Girl, as creator Toby Gard explains, when third-wave ("lipstick/babe") feminism was becoming more commercial where you had women characters showing off their sexuality and power at the same time. 90s Lara began discussions about strong female characters the same way the more over-the-top Bayonetta does now (I'm more in 90s Lara camp versus Bayonetta though based on some specifics).

KILL SCREEN: TOMB RAIDER AND THE RIOT-GRRRL FEMINISM OF THE ’90S

In creating Lara Croft, Gard looked for inspiration in Tank Girl’s use of space rockets as a bra, owning her body’s objectification by brandishing her promiscuity and punkish fashion sense as a boisterous threat. She frequently fucked, farted, and fought, and did so autocratically. But to understand Tank Girl, this hyperbolized comic-book character, and what Gard had transferred from her into Lara Croft, we need to look at the political climate that they emerged within. The ’90s, a decade that wore “Girl Power” as a strap line, was host to the third-wave of feminism. According to Bitch Magazine, this movement was spurred on in 1989 by NOW (National Organization for Women) president Patricia Ireland as a “response to increasing federal and state restrictions on abortion.” This was the effect of a decade-long backlash against the public face of feminism, and a growing activism among young women at the time. It gained momentum quickly: in 1990, author Naomi Wolf deconstructed the expectations placed on women’s physicality in “The Beauty Myth”; in 1991, Susan Faludi contributed a polemic on the media’s efforts to reverse the efforts of second-wave feminism in “Backlash“; and, by 1992, the Third Wave Foundation (initially the Third Wave Direct Action Corporation) was formed to centralize this new cloud of feminist thought regardless of gender, race, sexuality, and class. It was a time of girl riot (and riot grrrls) and feminist expression that looked to demolish the double standards separating genders, and the treatment of women by the media and the law.​

...

This leads us to Lara and her large triangular chest. I think Gard saw Tank Girl and wanted to create a woman with similar strengths, but with a measured dose of mannerly austerity, and quiet intelligence. Lara was intended to be a step forward, if not for feminism, then at least for the representation of women in videogames. Gard also wanted to make sure that Lara was easily identified as a woman by the executives looking over his shoulder. Her chest, long legs, and big lips are Gard’s way of signposting that she was definitely not Indiana Jones. All of this had to be squashed within the graphical limitations of the hardware to hand. Console and PC technology at the time excelled at jagged 3D. Hence, Lara was formed out of sharp inward cuts rather than more true-to-life curves. But what he may have seen in Lara was different to what the marketing department saw. They must have been aware of the mainstream media’s usurping of third-wave feminism—that was part of their job—and therefore saw potential millions in pushing Lara Croft as a sexy feminist icon. Men could ogle at her while women may find representation and strength in Lara.

And so it was. Lara slipped in among the Spice Girls, The Vagina Monologues, men’s lifestyle mags like Loaded, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Bridget Jones’s Diary, “ladettes,” Xena: Warrior Princess, and Courtney Love. Most of these women were portrayed in the media in dual roles: they subverted gender norms by taking what were usually positions filled exclusively by men, and they were also deemed physically attractive enough to be worshipped as if Aphrodite herself. With Lara, Gard captured the zeitgeist in one controversial package, whether he meant to or not, and the media lapped it up.​

While reboot Lara even surprised Camilla Luddington, she didn't expect all the crying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXD6VRSrUxQ&t=5m01s
“When I got this role, at first, I did not know that I would be crying so much; I thought I would be kicking butt. That was the Lara I thought I had gotten myself into.”

 

[Trup1aya]

You should be proud instead, it means that everyone is taking this aspect of society seriously now. Everyone knows that the old Lara Croft was a sex symbol, this theads is a different take of it for the sake of discussion. (Like : Is the new Lara really as better as we thought ? Yes/No, that's a debate.)

15 years ago, i feel like that kind of discussion would have been a lot harder to do.

When something is "sexist" that doesn't mean the people behind me wanted to do bad thing or think poorly of woman. That means it convey a hidden message that even developpers may not have though of it.
So even if the team wanted to do their best (and i'm sure that's what they wanted), it doesn't mean anything in the great shem of thing.

Hell, the old Lara wasn't even meant to be the sex symbol she become originally, the developpers really wanted her to be a stronge female equals to male hero... But we know how she is seen nowaday. (and for rightful reasons)

I know what sexist means. However, this isn't an example of it. People are attributing a hidden message because sexism is an easy target in gaming. The real message is that NPCs rarely get the attention from animators that protagonists get.

The fact that people see this particular Lara as weak is baffling to me. Because she's hands down the strongest person in each of the last two games.

Jonah has a lot of bodyfat while Lara obviously doesn't, so it actually makes sense that he'd freeze less. Of course questionable if they intentionally took that into consideration, but I also wouldn't put it completely behind them.

That's a logically excuse to make. But I think, just like most games, NPCs got less attention. I remember the vidocs where the devs were showing such pride in their attention to detail when it came to animating Lara. They did a great job there, less so with other characters, understandably.

 

[Messofanego]

But Jonah does.

I actually feel that her portrayal in the beginning of the first game is going too far in the attempt to convey her frailty. But during this particular scene? It really sounds nitpicky.

Actually, Jonah clutches for only 5-10 seconds but his default animation is with his arms to his sides, while Lara's default animation is the clutching throughout even when they're protected from the wind.

It's telling when you contrast this to the original Tomb Raider when Lara doesn't need the help of a man during traversal. If reboot Lara was as confident in her traversal capabilities, she wouldn't need to rely on Jonah's hand-grab but would know how to make the jump by herself.

How many more games will it take until Crystal Dynamics Lara is as confident as Core Design Lara? lol

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

I think it would be neat for them to add menstrual status effects. Kind of like in GTA5 when you're drunk you sort of stagger around. In the next Tomb Raider they should have Lara get period cramps so she sort of grasps her abdomen and hunches over.

 

[Messofanego]

I think it would be neat for them to add menstrual status effects. Kind of like in GTA5 when you're drunk you sort of stagger around. In the next Tomb Raider they should have Lara get period cramps so she sort of grasps her abdomen and hunches over.

Then you have to stock up on chocolate and ice cream.

 

[MrLuvvaLuvva]

Rather than argue the same points for 50 - 100 pages (like every other feminism post) can't we all just say that everything is sexist in some form or another?

Case in point - my name is sexist AF tbh!

 

[Hogger]

Personally the whole vulnerable female character type is so really annoying. It's a form of veiled sexism where female characters act fragile, exhausted and doubtful while doing the same actions a male hero would do.

Or it's good characterization that gives the protagonist a realistic feel in a surreal world. Male characters should do the same. I give props to the developer for making Lara's reactions to what's going on believable.

Should she not pant? Moan in pain? Cry out in terror? Don't be quick to associate those with female traits and rather human traits done properly in a video game.

 

[potatohead]

Rather than argue the same points for 50 - 100 pages (like every other feminism post) can't we all just say that everything is sexist in some form or another?

Case in point - my name is sexist AF tbh!

I don't think it's just about whether or not it's sexist.

I think most of the arguments in the thread mostly just are calling the nu-TR characterization poor, and worse than what came before.

 

[MrLuvvaLuvva]

I don't think it's just about whether or not it's sexist.

I think most of the arguments in the thread mostly just are calling the nu-TR characterization poor, and worse than what came before.

I agree tbh modern Lara is a LOT less of a character than a pair of; stereotypically British sounding, walking boobs!

I suppose she did wear sunglasses though, they are cool AF!

 

[ActWan]

Trying to shade feminism as rabbied extremism seems pretty misguided when we have the executive producer of the game on record saying the game is supposed to elicit masculine protective instinct for Lara because the charecter is a her.

They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

"She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character."

http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

Really, I think this should be added to the OP with the quotes/the source, instead of the small sentence the OP wrote there. This is major and important to know when discussing this topic.

 

[potatohead]

I agree tbh modern Lara is a LOT less of a character than a pair of; stereotypically British sounding, walking boobs!

I suppose she did wear sunglasses though, they are cool AF!

You didn't play the Legend series did you.

 

[MrLuvvaLuvva]

You didn't play the Legend series did you.

To be honest, no, I gave up after the disappointment of Tomb Raider 3 - I do have all the games on Steam though - I assume it's worth booting Legend/Anniversary/Underworld up?

 

[potatohead]

To be honest, no, I gave up after the disappointment of Tomb Raider 3 - I do have all the games on Steam though - I assume it's worth booting Legend/Anniversary/Underworld up?

Yes, I really recommend them. They work really well with Xinput too (Xbox controller or DS4windows).

Anniversary is the weakest one as it's kind of a remake of some of the previous games, but Legend and Underworld are pretty awesome. But all have nice gameplay.

I think I liked Legend the most with Underworld just behind.

I didn't like the "next-gen" graphics assets in Legend though, you can toggle them on or off to see which you like better.

This is what Legend and Underworld can look like on PC.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/133846393@N03/albums/72157665731551536

https://www.flickr.com/photos/133846393@N03/sets/72157668762104922

 

[Mman235]

Preach it to the freakin' heavens and back, OP. Oh, Reboot!Lara Croft! You are the broken pedestal of a gift that just always keeps on giving. It's been years, and I'm still not over the loss of one of the few larger than life female power fantasy characters we had in gaming. Buh-bye Lara, enjoy Crystal Dynamics' Island of Horrors. See ya, Samus, you were Other M'd. Now two of the most iconic women in gaming are 'vulnerable', what a unique concept, that's never been done with a female character before. All we have left in the female power fantasy department is Bayonetta, and as much as I adore her, she's definitely still got her issues.

I fully acknowledge that Tomb Raider has always had a really dodgy relationship with women/sexualisation/violence. (There is an interesting essay from Cara Ellison about the original TR and the reboot from when the controversial reboot trailer came out). At the end of it all, what really disturbs me about the rebooted series is that it's become so incredibly insidious about how Lara is treated. But, hey, she's practically dressed now, all is saved!

I think one of the things I perpetually find so disturbing about the treatment of Reboot!Lara, is how it's all sunshine and roses on the surface, with more insidious steps made with the character the whole way through. Lara's gone from an adventurer that was disowned by her parents because they disagreed with her becoming an archaeologist... to being rebooted into yet another female character whose origins involve living up to her father's legacy. She's gone from smug, confident and cocky, to someone who is nondescript and uncertain. (There is nothing wrong with the latter, and it can be genuinely compelling with development. Pity Reboot!Lara is lacking in the development department.) Old School!Lara was a snarky, confident anti-hero. Reboot!Lara is a non-offensive, cookie-cutter straight forward hero with very little in the way of personality - CD very briefly explores her anti-hero element in Rise. Lara's gone from being an aggressive, proactive in your face duel-wielding pistol gun-show to a more passive heroine who has been billed as a survivor with her bow and arrow. I still think it's interesting that a bow is the weapon CD stuck Lara with, in both marketing and narrative, as opposed to a shotgun or a pistol. We were so lacking in archer women archetypes, we absolutely needed another one! Meanwhile, how 'bout that female lead with a pistol or a shotgun? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Speaking of bows, can we talk about that time the Reboot!Lara brought a bow to gun fight?

...seriously, CD, that was one of the stupidest things ever.

Old School!Lara was not remotely perfect, nor was the treatment of her in relation to sexuality and violence, but the series had no pretence to what it was. The rebooted Tomb Raider pretends it's stepped away from these roots, all the while Reboot!Lara goes through such a beating it's like there is a competition with the Crystal Dynamic devs to see what hell they can put her through next. She takes a few steps, something breaks. Here's another body of water with air pockets specifically placed so that she'll always be struggling and gasping for air by the time she gets to the other side. If there's a way for her to get scraped and beaten up by the environment, CD is all over it. There's also a continual dissonance with her injuries, just so she can get hurt more. From the 2013 game, she gets a gut wound early on and swims through revoltingly unhygienic water. It's a complete non-issue. Later on, she clips a tree, and now suddenly it's a huge deal where she can no longer jump and limps around the world for a few levels. She constantly falls from heights that would break bones, but, no, she's fine, she'll just moan for awhile, so she can fall from another height, and moan again.

I absolutely agree that playing Uncharted is also a perpetual suspension of disbelief as to how Nathan Drake is alive - but Uncharted's pulpy adventure tone fits this well. Nate might slip and slide, and have the odd long drop, but it isn't every other move he makes. Poor Reboot!Lara's world is designed for the most amount of pain they can put her through without seriously injuring her. Crystal Dynamics, for better or worse, is trying to have their gritty survival game with pulpy adventure tropes all at the same time. Unfortunately the end result is a female character with a long-standing history of sexualising/violence getting hurt, over and over and over. If CD wanted to truly make a gritty survival game, they needed to be realistic about how and when Lara gets hurt. Lara would have died about ten minutes into reboot, and probably every ten minutes after. I've always found the 'it's realistic!' excuse to be rubbish. CD want their pulpy adventure take alongside the grit. I always feel like the series unsuccessfully wrestles with both genres, and Lara (literally) suffers instead.

I want to emphasise my complaints are also not an issue of a female character getting hurt. That's fine, she's in life or death situations, it's going to happen. I'd expect the same thing of a male character. The difference is how Lara is treated during all of this, the sexualised element that is lacking with a male lead, and the ludicrous frequency of it all.

One of the issues that ties into the above is that Lara's vocalisations are still an absolute disturbing train wreck, even in Rise. I don't know if it's just Camilla Luddington not being the strongest actress, or if she's under specific direction from CD. The sounds Lara makes in game continue to blur the already fucked-up line the series has with women, sexualisation, and violence. They're not sounds actual women make when they are in pain, or doing something that requires physical exertion. They're at the Vanille-tier of The Slightest Move Is Making Me Orgasm. My favourite example for doing vocalisations correctly is Bayonetta. Her grunts in combat are realistic and guttural, and when she's hit, her yells are never sexual in nature. Bayonetta gets this right, of all ironic sexualised characters! Bayonetta! Her Smash reveal is probably one of the easiest vids to demonstrate her combat sounds.

Bayonetta gets a lot of things right that Tomb Raider has never been able to, and I frequently find myself comparing the two series, despite the drastically different genres. Snarky, sexualised, British female larger than life leads, how could you not compare? Platinum keeps Bayonetta's sexuality and any objectification of her far, far away from violence. Never the twain shall meet. The villains never comment on any aspect of her sexuality, never are sexual in response to her, and never use it against her. As above, her combat noises aren't sexualised, and when she's fighting, it's 100% all business. It's because of this approach from Platinum, I have only once felt uncomfortable playing as Bayonetta*, and playing the series is general a relaxing power fantasy jaunt. Playing the Tomb Raider reboot is a constant teeth-grit of CD's insidious treatment towards Lara. I think it's absurd that a game where the female lead loses her clothing-hair to summon demons in combat respects its female character better than the touted empowering Tomb Raider reboot.

*Platinum dropped the ball with the sequel's Rodin boss fight, though. Naked, foetal Bayonetta. Yep. Awful.

There are some great discussions in this thread about how Strong Female Characters should be allowed to show strength in ways outside the cliched norms, which I 1000% agree with. The Strong Female Character trope that's popped up in the last few years has been supremely frustrating, especially since these Strong Female Characters are generally just shallow attempts that often have very little use or relevance in the story. Strength isn't just being able to punch someone in the face. I also don't want to diminish what Reboot!Lara goes through - she's an absolute fucking badass. I would have drowned the first minute into the game. (If I was the Tomb Raider lead, the game would only be worth one dollar, because that's how long the runtime would be.) My primary, frustrated complaints are just how much Reboot!Lara has lost so much from her original incarnation. There are very few redeemable things that have been left in Old School!Lara's place, both with her as a character, and with Reboot!Lara's disturbing treatment in game.

...at any rate, it had been a few months since my last 'save me from Reboot!Lara, and take notes from the Book of Bayonetta' essay, I apologise for another one. (I have a pipe dream that CD will reboot the reboot, completely change their treatment of Lara, and magically give Tomb Raider to Cara Ellison when she's finished on Dishonored 2. Every time I re-read one of her Tomb Raider essays I remember the Lara that I looked up to as a kid - bizarre pointy triangular breasts and all - and then the reality of Reboot!Lara comes crashing back.)

When it comes to specific details of Lara itself this mostly covers what I feel.

I feel a complete detachment from the "vulnerabilty" arguments. New Lara isn't vulnerable, she's an near-invincible terminator who only gets brought low when Cutscene Mode kicks in and the established physics of the world warp to brutalise her (seriously can we stop fucking doing this already?). Old Lara felt more "vulnerable" to me, given the games were actually difficult if you didn't know what to do and Lara's life could be casually snuffed out at any moment if you weren't paying attention, and Lara being so unflappable in the face of that just made her cooler to me.

I think you have a point with it being annoying and sometimes cringeworthy, as well as not fitting in terms of previous titles.

But just because we both don't like it, it's not automatically sexism when a girl is shown crying or weak. That's where feminism of the 21st century failed; they only want to show hero-like characters with no distinct personality, otherwise it's sexist. That's harming a great cause with stupid suggestions.

So new Lara? She's an awkward hybrid of Strong Female Character, Young Adult and Action Movie cliches with nothing unique about her. Despite the marketing stuff that slipped into the games occasionally old Lara was very much her own character, and actually still quite unique in a couple of ways (like the thing mentioned in the other quoted post where there's no overt drama with her parents, she just pissed them off so much with her exploits that they flat-out disowned her).

I actually agree that Tomb Raider's treatment highlights flaws in the game's industry conception of "feminism", but in a different way. The media's treatment of the original games and Lara after Crystal Dynamics got the franchise was actually where I started to pay attention to feminism, because the double standard treatment of Lara vs other characters became impossible for me to ignore.

It feels like far too strong a term for a fictional character, but I can't think of a better one, so I'll just say there's this "slut shaming" feel to a lot of the talk about old Lara; because of her questionable base appearance and marketing everything in the actual games gets ignored and she's just wrote off as some sort of slutbitch where the whole game is apparently just her seducing men and making glamour shots for the assumed male player or something.

The icing on the cake is that this has happened twice now; when Legend was being marketed I remember all the "Lara's not just sex appeal now!" points being all over the media, and now the reboot comes along and NOW Lara's not sex appeal, not like that slutbitchho Legend Lara! Though I guess hype culture is a major catalyst of that, because the media just parrots what Eidos's marketers tell them to say to draw attention to the game.

 

[potatohead]

When it comes to specific details of Lara itself this mostly covers what I feel.

I feel a complete detachment from the "vulnerabilty" arguments. New Lara isn't vulnerable, she's an near-invincible terminator who only gets brought low when Cutscene Mode kicks in and the established physics of the world warp to brutalise her (seriously can we stop fucking doing this already?). Old Lara felt more "vulnerable" to me, given the games were actually difficult if you didn't know what to do and Lara's life could be casually snuffed out at any moment if you weren't paying attention, and Lara being so unflappable in the face of that just made her cooler to me.



So new Lara? She's an awkward hybrid of Strong Female Character, Young Adult and Action Movie cliches with nothing unique about her. Despite the marketing stuff that slipped into the games occasionally old Lara was very much her own character, and actually still quite unique in a couple of ways (like the thing mentioned in the other quoted post where there's no overt drama with her parents, she just pissed them off so much with her exploits that they flat-out disowned her).

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[MrLuvvaLuvva]

This is what Legend and Underworld can look like on PC.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/133846393@N03/albums/72157665731551536

https://www.flickr.com/photos/133846393@N03/sets/72157668762104922

HOLY SHIT! I'm in!

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Actually, Jonah clutches for only 5-10 seconds but his default animation is with his arms to his sides, while Lara's default animation is the clutching throughout

It's telling when you contrast this to the original Tomb Raider when Lara doesn't need the help of a man during traversal. If reboot Lara was as confident in her traversal capabilities, she wouldn't need to rely on Jonah's hand-grab but would know how to make the jump by herself.

How many more games will it take until Crystal Dynamics Lara is as confident as Core Design Lara? lol

See, this is exactly what I meant by nitpicky. Clutching oneself when it's cold when the big burly person does not do it all the time is not a sign of weakness. That you need to go the "but she's doing it longer that him" route is already pretty silly. Needing another's help for a jump is not a sign of non-confidence. Especially considering that she does another solo jump that makes Jonah go "holy shit I'd never be able to do that!" not 10 minutes after.

I maintain that the series's problem lies not in the concept of Lara Croft's character but rather in it blunt writing. Sure, they display moments of vulnerabilities that occasionally go to far that it's grating, like during the beginning of the first game. On the opposite side of the spectrum, however, the way the game constantly and unsubtly proclaim how awesome Lara is - from her friends who keep saying that they want to be like her to the enemies who shout panicked words of doom every time they face her head-on - makes it difficult for me to see it as anything different than hackneyed power fantasy.

 

[Xav]

People love to overreact and be easily offended by everything these days.

It's videogame whose sole purpose is to entertain the player who is sitting on a sofa with a plastic controller pushing some buttons. Don't look too deep into it...

This is a more humane Lara than we've seen in the past. That alone doesn't mean females = fragile nor is it a setback for women just because Lara happens to be a female. I actually find her more appealing than old school Lara who was little more than a sex object and no sold the danger around her.

Is current Lara perfect? No, but for some reason people complain about these Tomb Raider games like the games industry is full of great story telling and character development by comparison.

Personally for the next Tomb Raider, I'd tone down Rambo Lara and focus more on raiding tombs with clever puzzles. Not because of any female representation but rather because that's the type of game I want to play.

I don't think new Lara is a setback for female representation. In fact, I think Crystal Dynamics has made more of an effort make her a real person for once.

Trust me, as someone who lived (and not simply read on Wikipedia about it) through the 90's. The original Lara was nothing than a pair of tits and a Luzocade commercial.

 

[ps3ud0]

I don't think it's just about whether or not it's sexist.

I think most of the arguments in the thread mostly just are calling the nu-TR characterization poor, and worse than what came before.

Agreed Laura's an absurd character and I'd rather have a 'palette swapped' male in a female role than what Crystal Dynamics have done. She's just pathetic in her current form...

Core Design design while her appearance was overly sexualised (but current with the times) was just a far better representation and completely fit within the games. Some of that is from the meagre information we are given about her but a lot is from gameplay - she's a badass, being female (or male) isn't that relevant just like Samus.

I'd quite happily take Lauras form with everything else from old Lara - even then I don't think her appearance is anything but what's acceptable/expected today.

ps3ud0 8)

 

[Curufinwe]

It's eye rolling that Lara walked around clutching herself in pain? Right in the beginning of the game a long, sharp shard completely punctures right through her side. Is she supposed to just shrug it off?

I think it was equally ridiculous that Lara and Joel survived that injury.

 

[Basketball]

I definitely agree. It's unfortunate some people can't seem to look past the old Lara's boobs and, inexplicably, judge the character solely on her appearance. It's kind of ironic that same people who would use old Lara's oversexed design as an example of objectification can't seem to look at her as anything, but a pair of boobs.

I miss the old, confident, sassy, mature tomb raider who was an expert historian and explorer, could hold her own against anything from armed mobs to T-Rex's and could use her feminine charms when it was beneficial.

Agree 1000 percent

And op I agree .. I usually don't with op on many matters but here you are spot on. Lara was indiana jones , a real icon now this reboot character is just some generic toe the line character with writers afraid to step on any toes.

 

[Lime]

Or it's good characterization that gives the protagonist a realistic feel in a surreal world. Male characters should do the same. I give props to the developer for making Lara's reactions to what's going on believable.

Should she not pant? Moan in pain? Cry out in terror? Don't be quick to associate those with female traits and rather human traits done properly in a video game.

Like I said, the vulnerability and fragility is exclusive to the female protagonist and it is compounded by the "you'll want to protect her" statements by the developers.

"Yet what I experienced in ROTR was constant moaning, exhaustion, gasps, and display of vulnerability."

She is human. What she went through in both of these games is something that would literally kill the average person. She was strong-willed and macho enough to be able to do the things in the game without dying, so I think cutting her some slack and letting her "gasp" and "moan" when she's falling down from cliffs, being hunted by tigers and bears, being exposed to the most exrtreme weather conditions, being shot at by a dozen people at once, and zip-lining down mountains, is okay. Unless you're saying even under these extreme conditions, women must maintain an aura of "not letting it bother them", which I feel is more offensive to women than what you're suggesting the games have done.

Put another way: I feel that if you replaced Lara with a man, but otherwise was the same character, you would hear/see the same noises/ body language, given the harsh conditions the character is facing. It would simply be at a lower register.

The problem is that you have a scenario where the man (Jonah) does not display the same amount of fragility and vulnerability in literally the exact same environment as Lara. You have previous games where Lara Croft as an experienced and adult character does not let the environment deter her - just take a look at the cutscenes in Underworld or Legend.

But is that really the case? Aren't there enough stories (maybe not in gaming), in which a male hero is completely devastated and demoralized by what is happening?

You seemingly want to pin it down to the argument of feminist extremists. But that fails to acknowledge that female characters can be portrayed in different ways. If it was up to this extreme view, the depiction of females would always be heroine-like, which makes it more than questionable whether they really want diversity, or instead follow some other agenda.

I think your criticism is valid, the whiny Lara isn't fitting. But don't try to pin it down to sexism.

The problem is that this is taking one of the few female protagonists and put her in the box that is vulnerable and fragile women that need protecting from the (presumably male) player.

It's eye rolling that Lara walked around clutching herself in pain? Right in the beginning of the game a long, sharp shard completely punctures right through her side. Is she supposed to just shrug it off?

That's not being fragile, that's being human. Through all of the horrors she endured, she pressed on. A fragile person would've given up. Who entered a wolf den to retrieve a walker talkie on behalf of an injured man who sat back at a campsite?

As I recall Uncharted 2 opened with Drake in pretty bad shape. He wasn't bouncing around like some invulnerable action dude. He was slowly lumbering around in pain. I'll take more human characters any day over invincible action heroes.

Sure, humanity and display of depth are more than welcome, but the context in which this is represented, along with how other side characters behave (e.g. Jonah), and the quotes by the developer about wanting to protect, along with the fact that the "Coming of Age" story should've been over by now, yet vulnerable and fragile Lara from the first game is still present.