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I finally saw Fahrenheit 9/11 last night

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xsarien

daedsiluap
iapetus said:
...it wasn't made by Michael Moore. I have very little interest in this film after seeing Bowling for Columbine.

Edit:
jinx, I actually kind of agree with Kurashima on this one. In BfC, I felt that Moore had some good points to make, and that they were weakened for me by his need to push some of his arguments further that they could go. The flabby and directionless nature of the film didn't help much either, but it's mostly the feeling that the facts are being distorted despite the fact that they could make their case just as effectively if not more effectively if they were being left to do the job themselves.

The only thing that goes over the line in BfC is Moore's confrontation with Heston at the end. It serves no purpose other than to bully a man (not that he doesn't deserves bullying, he deserves a lot of it) in front of the camera for sympathy points. It doesn't completely KILL the movie, but it kind of blunts the points made.

I think what it comes down to is whether or not you're willing to sit down with a Michael Moore movie and seperate the sarcasm, and tongue-in-cheek moments from the raw facts. It's his style, and if rather obvious (to me, apparently other people have problems discerning it) exaggerations made with a sarcastic eye get people into the theaters, all the power to him. At the end of the day, he's got an opinion, an informed one, and the only people who lose out are the ones who dismiss him so readily because of split hairs.
 

Dilbert

Member
iapetus said:
jinx, I actually kind of agree with Kurashima on this one. In BfC, I felt that Moore had some good points to make, and that they were weakened for me by his need to push some of his arguments further that they could go. The flabby and directionless nature of the film didn't help much either, but it's mostly the feeling that the facts are being distorted despite the fact that they could make their case just as effectively if not more effectively if they were being left to do the job themselves.
I completely agree that the movie was not particularly focused...it started strongly and then got a bit lost at the end. In particular -- though compelling -- the sections at the end which portrayed the soldiers in Iraq seemed to weaken his argument. After making the case that we shouldn't be in Iraq to begni with and how it was terrible that our innocent kids were getting killed...he shows those "kids" in Heart-of-Darkness-esque footage talking about their favorite music to kill to. Also, the argument about the poor fighting wars was completely off-subject -- yes, it's probably worth discussing at some other point, but it wasn't central to his argument. The movie was strongest when it focused solely on Bush's failures before, during, and after 9/11 to deal with terrorism, including all of the manipulations his administration used to further its agenda.

The problem with presenting a set of facts and leaving the viewer to make up his/her mind about what they mean is that it wouldn't be a MOVIE. A documentary is really no different than science: present your evidence AND your conclusion, and if someone wants to disagree with your conclusion, they can go back and look at the evidence. Kurashima claims to be one of those enlightened people who can understand the way in which Moore is trying to lead the audience into accepting his conclusion. So instead of avoiding those movies entirely, why not go to them and sift through to find the facts and make his own conclusion? It's not "integrity" that keeps you away from opposing points of view.
 

Alcibiades

Member
GG-Duo said:
Regardless of his argument and some of his techniques [ie. driving around ice cream truck with speakerphone, following recruiters around, ambushing senators], there are some excellent footage in F9/11.

Even if you hate the fat fuck, I'd still say that the film is definitely worth viewing.
I have to agree, even with all the distortions in the movie, some of it (like the beginning and ending make-up sequences) is well-done.

Also, some of it is entertaining. If you can borrow it from someone or see it at a showing, I'd recommend seeing it no matter what you think of Micheal Moore.

If you come out of it thinking you've learned something substantive though, you should probably do a bit more looking into the facts and situations before drawing any major conclusions...

to quote South Park Creat Matt Stone on their new movie:

"If anyone walks out of this movie, or a Michael Moore movie, thinking about voting a different way, then they're ... stupid and shouldn't be voting,"
 

Alcibiades

Member
JoshuaJSlone said:
Just to point out--I believe Koch has endorsed Bush.
true, even though he disagree's with him on 99% of his positions and stands, he's voting for him.

that's pretty telling right there...
 
-jinx-: I'm not trying to act like I'm enlightened or anything. I'm just trying to explain why some people wouldn't want to watch these movies. I don't want to watch a movie and then have to edit it out afterwards in my mind to see what was the truth and what was a half truth. It's just not enjoyable. If a movie has many flaws throughout it I'm not going to give it a break and like it just because of what it could have been or what its message was. In the same way, I'm not going to watch documentaries like F911 when I already have a good source of information on the topic with the internet. Am I expecting too much when I want a documentary to just give me the facts and not go overboard with it just to get me to go along with its point of view? I like being given information with which you can make a conclusion just by yourself instead of having a director's opinion shoved down my throat. I think it's very common for people not to want to be manipulated and that there's nothing elitist about it.
 
efralope said:
It's not just the Ann Coulter's whining, Moore pissed a lot of people off by not necessarily by the stands he took and accusations he made, but rather by distortion of facts and taking interviews and events out of context...-

So I'm supposed to watch Farenhype and take everything they say to discredit Moore as face value? No thanks.
 
efralope said:
"If anyone walks out of this movie, or a Michael Moore movie, thinking about voting a different way, then they're ... stupid and shouldn't be voting,"

yeah I agree with that. I'm watching the movie because I expect it to be funny. Almost a to the extent of parody, and I'm sure there will be some telling footage.
People who get up in arms over this need to lighten up. It's only a movie.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Kurashima said:
I'm not going to watch documentaries like F911 when I already have a good source of information on the topic with the internet.

Because as we all know, if it's on the Internet, it must be true!
 

pestul

Member
The most important thing for me will always be the .. "Even if it's only 1/10th fact.." argument. That 1/10th is still horribly disgusting and people shouldn't stand for it. Titor style.
 

Dilbert

Member
Kurashima said:
I don't want to watch a movie and then have to edit it out afterwards in my mind to see what was the truth and what was a half truth.

...

In the same way, I'm not going to watch documentaries like F911 when I already have a good source of information on the topic with the internet.
So you believe that everything you read on the internet is perfectly true?

As much as I'd like to sympathize, the unshakable truth is that EVERY source of information has to be closely examined, and yes, that requires energy and attention. If you watch Fahrenheit 9/11, you'd better pay close attention. But the same is true for newspapers, television news broadcasts, radio, advertisements, small talk with the neighbors, etc. I don't see why it's a valid excuse to write off Moore's movie when it's no different than any other source of political information.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
-jinx- said:
So you believe that everything you read on the internet is perfectly true?

As much as I'd like to sympathize, the unshakable truth is that EVERY source of information has to be closely examined, and yes, that requires energy and attention. If you watch Fahrenheit 9/11, you'd better pay close attention. But the same is true for newspapers, television news broadcasts, radio, advertisements, small talk with the neighbors, etc. I don't see why it's a valid excuse to write off Moore's movie when it's no different than any other source of political information.

Because Michael Moore is fat! True story.
 

TheDuce22

Banned
So if Kerry gets elected does that mean all these self-hating americans Moore helped create, who cant seem to wait for a civil war, will go away?
 
In response to the difference between a movie and other sources of information:

1) A movie should be an enjoyable experience IMO. I've already explained that I would be annoyed rather than amused by this movie. This alone gives me reason to dislike F911.

2) Watching a movie is completely different from reading something. When you watch a movie, you're completely immersed in it and it's not something with which you can just browse through what you want to know and skip the rest, or leave it to another day, and it doesn't show you where it gets its info from, unlike many sites on the internet or news reports.

3) If I want to know about something, I'll research it. Researching something by yourself is quite different from just watching a two hour movie based on one point of view. For one, you have access to many more sources and you may have places that you already trust. It's like saying that you always have to buy a game and play it despite many reviews that say it's horrible. People go by sources that have proven reliable in the past as well as reliability based on the amount of sources which say the same thing.

It seems that you at least agree that the movie is not unbiased. That doesn't mean that every source of information is completely biased as well. Knowing that this movie in particular doesn't give me what I want, it makes sense to look for info that I want elsewhere. I don't know how much clearer I have to be just to show you that you can indeed dislike this movie for valid reasons.
 
I agree with xarian you need to be able to watch and separate the facts from political spin.
I watch Fox News network all the time and they're biased as hell. But I watch it because it's entertaining.
 

Drensch

Member
If only manabyte and the other members of the "head in the sand" gang had put as much scrutiny into the rationale for the war.
 

Che

Banned
*clap clap clap*

Congratulations to all the republicans who found a minor mistake or misinformation in the movie. Wow! I bet the whole documentary is EVIL!
 

TheDuce22

Banned
Congratulations to all the republicans who found a minor mistake or misinformation in the movie. Wow! I bet the whole documentary is EVIL!
Today 06:46 PM

How is that a minor mistake when he had to go in and physically change things. He did the same thing in bowling for columbine, not on a newspaper headline but on a plaque. Are you saying it was an accident? His films are more propaganda than documentarys, anyone can see that. Some just believe the way he manipulates the truth is for the greater good. Im not one of those people.
 

rastex

Banned
Drensch said:
If only manabyte and the other members of the "head in the sand" gang had put as much scrutiny into the rationale for the war.
This is the colossol irony of it all.
 

Alcibiades

Member
seismologist said:
So I'm supposed to watch Farenhype and take everything they say to discredit Moore as face value? No thanks.
no, but I wanted to let people know (whether they watch the movie or not) that not everyone in the film if some right-wing wacko...

though Dick Morris is a bit of a wacko in his own right, separate of his political leanings...
 

Alcibiades

Member
eggplant said:
IIRC he came around when Carville and Begala left
he was helping Clinton back in Arkansas, way before his Presidential campaigns...

The reason he was brought in is because he was a personal friend and Carville and Begala couldn't do sh*t past the 40% of Democrats in the country, Republicans were getting their 40% + independents and moderates.

When Carville helped Clinton in '92, it was when Ross Perot was severely splitting the Republican/Conservative vote. After that, with no Ross Perot in the picture, Clinton led the Democrats to a devastating loss in the House and Senate after 40 years of Democratic rule. Morris came in because Clinton knew him and knew he could help Clinton recover for the '96 election, where his job was on the line.

Actually, he not only helped Clinton win re-election in '96, but he helped Vicente Fox win election in Mexico for a party (PAN), breaking 70 years of rule by the PRI party.

Morris also helped some anti-EU party in Britain get almost 20% of the vote this past year, stunning analysts and political types in Britain.

Ture, Lamert or whatever his name is in Australia didn't win, but Morris wasn't advising him, just praising his economically progressive policies.

Morris is pretty much a Democrat in Republican's clothing for now because he believes in aggressive protection of the US homeland, other than that he agrees with Kerry more on social and economic issues...
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Actually, the narrarator (Dick Morris) of the Fahrenhype 9/11 movie calls himself a liberal "child of the Clinton era".

Ron Silver narrates Fahrenhype 9/11

And the interview segments with Ron Silver are great as well.

On editing together footage to fit your agenda: (not exact quotes)
"Give me enough footage to work with and I can make Moore look like an anorexic right-winger."

On the Carlyle Group: (not exact quotes)
"There are a lot of Democrats involved with the Carlyle Group, and they also own a large stake of the Lowes Theater Chain. I'm sure Moore's movie played in some of those."
 

Alcibiades

Member
shuri said:
Now, how can we know that Farenhype 911 isnt manipulative..?
maybe it is, but limiting yourself to one viewpoint would probably leave you with a smaller context in which to evaluate the incidents and situations presented...
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Michael Moores movies are best value when you already think Bush is a complete tool and want to see someone rip on him real bad.

Does anyone have numbers for how well it did outside of America? People went nuts for it here.
 
I started watching Farenheight 911. Wow this movie is seriously damaging for Bush no wonder it's causing so much controversey.

I've heard about the Bush family involvement with the Bin Ladens but I never knew to what extent. And I've never seen all the footage compiled together the way it is here.
It really makes Bush look like he's faced with a huge conflict of interest in his policy making.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
ManaByte said:
On editing together footage to fit your agenda: (not exact quotes)
"Give me enough footage to work with and I can make Moore look like an anorexic right-winger."

Give me enough footage to work with and I can make Ron Silver look like a good actor.

ZING!
 
now I've read some of davekopel.com which disputes the F911 but so far it hasn't changed anything.

Sure it adds some more background but hasn't really change any of the facts.
 

WordofGod

Banned
deadlifter said:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/

Please point out all of the false and distorted info for me, kthxbye.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

Unfairenheit 9/11
The lies of Michael Moore.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, June 21, 2004, at 12:26 PM PT

Moore: Trying to have it three ways

One of the many problems with the American left, and indeed of the American left, has been its image and self-image as something rather too solemn, mirthless, herbivorous, dull, monochrome, righteous, and boring. How many times, in my old days at The Nation magazine, did I hear wistful and semienvious ruminations? Where was the radical Firing Line show? Who will be our Rush Limbaugh? I used privately to hope that the emphasis, if the comrades ever got around to it, would be on the first of those and not the second. But the meetings themselves were so mind-numbing and lugubrious that I thought the danger of success on either front was infinitely slight.

Nonetheless, it seems that an answer to this long-felt need is finally beginning to emerge. I exempt Al Franken's unintentionally funny Air America network, to which I gave a couple of interviews in its early days. There, one could hear the reassuring noise of collapsing scenery and tripped-over wires and be reminded once again that correct politics and smooth media presentation are not even distant cousins. With Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11, however, an entirely new note has been struck. Here we glimpse a possible fusion between the turgid routines of MoveOn.org and the filmic standards, if not exactly the filmic skills, of Sergei Eisenstein or Leni Riefenstahl.

To describe this film as dishonest and demagogic would almost be to promote those terms to the level of respectability. To describe this film as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental. To describe it as an exercise in facile crowd-pleasing would be too obvious. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a sinister exercise in moral frivolity, crudely disguised as an exercise in seriousness. It is also a spectacle of abject political cowardice masking itself as a demonstration of "dissenting" bravery.

In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. This was, he said, the American way. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something—I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now—has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous "distraction" from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion.

Fahrenheit 9/11 makes the following points about Bin Laden and about Afghanistan, and makes them in this order:

1) The Bin Laden family (if not exactly Osama himself) had a close if convoluted business relationship with the Bush family, through the Carlyle Group.

2) Saudi capital in general is a very large element of foreign investment in the United States.

3) The Unocal company in Texas had been willing to discuss a gas pipeline across Afghanistan with the Taliban, as had other vested interests.

4) The Bush administration sent far too few ground troops to Afghanistan and thus allowed far too many Taliban and al-Qaida members to escape.

5) The Afghan government, in supporting the coalition in Iraq, was purely risible in that its non-army was purely American.

6) The American lives lost in Afghanistan have been wasted. (This I divine from the fact that this supposedly "antiwar" film is dedicated ruefully to all those killed there, as well as in Iraq.)


It must be evident to anyone, despite the rapid-fire way in which Moore's direction eases the audience hastily past the contradictions, that these discrepant scatter shots do not cohere at any point. Either the Saudis run U.S. policy (through family ties or overwhelming economic interest), or they do not. As allies and patrons of the Taliban regime, they either opposed Bush's removal of it, or they did not. (They opposed the removal, all right: They wouldn't even let Tony Blair land his own plane on their soil at the time of the operation.) Either we sent too many troops, or were wrong to send any at all—the latter was Moore's view as late as 2002—or we sent too few. If we were going to make sure no Taliban or al-Qaida forces survived or escaped, we would have had to be more ruthless than I suspect that Mr. Moore is really recommending. And these are simply observations on what is "in" the film. If we turn to the facts that are deliberately left out, we discover that there is an emerging Afghan army, that the country is now a joint NATO responsibility and thus under the protection of the broadest military alliance in history, that it has a new constitution and is preparing against hellish odds to hold a general election, and that at least a million and a half of its former refugees have opted to return. I don't think a pipeline is being constructed yet, not that Afghanistan couldn't do with a pipeline. But a highway from Kabul to Kandahar—an insurance against warlordism and a condition of nation-building—is nearing completion with infinite labor and risk. We also discover that the parties of the Afghan secular left—like the parties of the Iraqi secular left—are strongly in favor of the regime change. But this is not the sort of irony in which Moore chooses to deal.

He prefers leaden sarcasm to irony and, indeed, may not appreciate the distinction. In a long and paranoid (and tedious) section at the opening of the film, he makes heavy innuendoes about the flights that took members of the Bin Laden family out of the country after Sept. 11. I banged on about this myself at the time and wrote a Nation column drawing attention to the groveling Larry King interview with the insufferable Prince Bandar, which Moore excerpts. However, recent developments have not been kind to our Mike. In the interval between Moore's triumph at Cannes and the release of the film in the United States, the 9/11 commission has found nothing to complain of in the timing or arrangement of the flights. And Richard Clarke, Bush's former chief of counterterrorism, has come forward to say that he, and he alone, took the responsibility for authorizing those Saudi departures. This might not matter so much to the ethos of Fahrenheit 9/11, except that—as you might expect—Clarke is presented throughout as the brow-furrowed ethical hero of the entire post-9/11 moment. And it does not seem very likely that, in his open admission about the Bin Laden family evacuation, Clarke is taking a fall, or a spear in the chest, for the Bush administration. So, that's another bust for this windy and bloated cinematic "key to all mythologies."

A film that bases itself on a big lie and a big misrepresentation can only sustain itself by a dizzying succession of smaller falsehoods, beefed up by wilder and (if possible) yet more-contradictory claims. President Bush is accused of taking too many lazy vacations. (What is that about, by the way? Isn't he supposed to be an unceasing planner for future aggressive wars?) But the shot of him "relaxing at Camp David" shows him side by side with Tony Blair. I say "shows," even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won't recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off.

The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that's what you get if you catch the president on a golf course. If Eisenhower had done this, as he often did, it would have been presented as calm statesmanship. If Clinton had done it, as he often did, it would have shown his charm. More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. I could even wish that myself. But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse. The other half would be saying what they already say—that he knew the attack was coming, was using it to cement himself in power, and couldn't wait to get on with his coup. This is the line taken by Gore Vidal and by a scandalous recent book that also revives the charge of FDR's collusion over Pearl Harbor. At least Moore's film should put the shameful purveyors of that last theory back in their paranoid box.

But it won't because it encourages their half-baked fantasies in so many other ways. We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. You would also be led to think that the term "civilian casualty" had not even been in the Iraqi vocabulary until March 2003. I remember asking Moore at Telluride if he was or was not a pacifist. He would not give a straight answer then, and he doesn't now, either. I'll just say that the "insurgent" side is presented in this film as justifiably outraged, whereas the 30-year record of Baathist war crimes and repression and aggression is not mentioned once. (Actually, that's not quite right. It is briefly mentioned but only, and smarmily, because of the bad period when Washington preferred Saddam to the likewise unmentioned Ayatollah Khomeini.)

That this—his pro-American moment—was the worst Moore could possibly say of Saddam's depravity is further suggested by some astonishing falsifications. Moore asserts that Iraq under Saddam had never attacked or killed or even threatened (his words) any American. I never quite know whether Moore is as ignorant as he looks, or even if that would be humanly possible. Baghdad was for years the official, undisguised home address of Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world, who had been sentenced to death even by the PLO and had blown up airports in Vienna* and Rome. Baghdad was the safe house for the man whose "operation" murdered Leon Klinghoffer. Saddam boasted publicly of his financial sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel. (Quite a few Americans of all denominations walk the streets of Jerusalem.) In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled—Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more—the Iraqi secret police were caught trying to murder former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait. Never mind whether his son should take that personally. (Though why should he not?) Should you and I not resent any foreign dictatorship that attempts to kill one of our retired chief executives? (President Clinton certainly took it that way: He ordered the destruction by cruise missiles of the Baathist "security" headquarters.) Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam. In 2001, Saddam's regime was the only one in the region that openly celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington and described them as just the beginning of a larger revenge. Its official media regularly spewed out a stream of anti-Semitic incitement. I think one might describe that as "threatening," even if one was narrow enough to think that anti-Semitism only menaces Jews. And it was after, and not before, the 9/11 attacks that Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi moved from Afghanistan to Baghdad and began to plan his now very open and lethal design for a holy and ethnic civil war. On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported—and the David Kay report had established—that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf. (This attempt was not uncovered until after the fall of Baghdad, the coalition's presence having meanwhile put an end to the negotiations.)

Thus, in spite of the film's loaded bias against the work of the mind, you can grasp even while watching it that Michael Moore has just said, in so many words, the one thing that no reflective or informed person can possibly believe: that Saddam Hussein was no problem. No problem at all. Now look again at the facts I have cited above. If these things had been allowed to happen under any other administration, you can be sure that Moore and others would now glibly be accusing the president of ignoring, or of having ignored, some fairly unmistakable "warnings."

The same "let's have it both ways" opportunism infects his treatment of another very serious subject, namely domestic counterterrorist policy. From being accused of overlooking too many warnings—not exactly an original point—the administration is now lavishly taunted for issuing too many. (Would there not have been "fear" if the harbingers of 9/11 had been taken seriously?) We are shown some American civilians who have had absurd encounters with idiotic "security" staff. (Have you ever met anyone who can't tell such a story?) Then we are immediately shown underfunded police departments that don't have the means or the manpower to do any stop-and-search: a power suddenly demanded by Moore on their behalf that we know by definition would at least lead to some ridiculous interrogations. Finally, Moore complains that there isn't enough intrusion and confiscation at airports and says that it is appalling that every air traveler is not forcibly relieved of all matches and lighters. (Cue mood music for sinister influence of Big Tobacco.) So—he wants even more pocket-rummaging by airport officials? Uh, no, not exactly. But by this stage, who's counting? Moore is having it three ways and asserting everything and nothing. Again—simply not serious.

Circling back to where we began, why did Moore's evil Saudis not join "the Coalition of the Willing"? Why instead did they force the United States to switch its regional military headquarters to Qatar? If the Bush family and the al-Saud dynasty live in each other's pockets, as is alleged in a sort of vulgar sub-Brechtian scene with Arab headdresses replacing top hats, then how come the most reactionary regime in the region has been powerless to stop Bush from demolishing its clone in Kabul and its buffer regime in Baghdad? The Saudis hate, as they did in 1991, the idea that Iraq's recuperated oil industry might challenge their near-monopoly. They fear the liberation of the Shiite Muslims they so despise. To make these elementary points is to collapse the whole pathetic edifice of the film's "theory." Perhaps Moore prefers the pro-Saudi Kissinger/Scowcroft plan for the Middle East, where stability trumps every other consideration and where one dare not upset the local house of cards, or killing-field of Kurds? This would be a strange position for a purported radical. Then again, perhaps he does not take this conservative line because his real pitch is not to any audience member with a serious interest in foreign policy. It is to the provincial isolationist.

I have already said that Moore's film has the staunch courage to mock Bush for his verbal infelicity. Yet it's much, much braver than that. From Fahrenheit 9/11 you can glean even more astounding and hidden disclosures, such as the capitalist nature of American society, the existence of Eisenhower's "military-industrial complex," and the use of "spin" in the presentation of our politicians. It's high time someone had the nerve to point this out. There's more. Poor people often volunteer to join the army, and some of them are duskier than others. Betcha didn't know that. Back in Flint, Mich., Moore feels on safe ground. There are no martyred rabbits this time. Instead, it's the poor and black who shoulder the packs and rifles and march away. I won't dwell on the fact that black Americans have fought for almost a century and a half, from insisting on their right to join the U.S. Army and fight in the Civil War to the right to have a desegregated Army that set the pace for post-1945 civil rights. I'll merely ask this: In the film, Moore says loudly and repeatedly that not enough troops were sent to garrison Afghanistan and Iraq. (This is now a favorite cleverness of those who were, in the first place, against sending any soldiers at all.) Well, where does he think those needful heroes and heroines would have come from? Does he favor a draft—the most statist and oppressive solution? Does he think that only hapless and gullible proles sign up for the Marines? Does he think—as he seems to suggest—that parents can "send" their children, as he stupidly asks elected members of Congress to do? Would he have abandoned Gettysburg because the Union allowed civilians to pay proxies to serve in their place? Would he have supported the antidraft (and very antiblack) riots against Lincoln in New York? After a point, one realizes that it's a waste of time asking him questions of this sort. It would be too much like taking him seriously. He'll just try anything once and see if it floats or flies or gets a cheer.

Indeed, Moore's affected and ostentatious concern for black America is one of the most suspect ingredients of his pitch package. In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children). Never mind for now how many black passengers were on those planes—we happen to know what Moore does not care to mention: that Todd Beamer and a few of his co-passengers, shouting "Let's roll," rammed the hijackers with a trolley, fought them tooth and nail, and helped bring down a United Airlines plane, in Pennsylvania, that was speeding toward either the White House or the Capitol. There are no words for real, impromptu bravery like that, which helped save our republic from worse than actually befell. The Pennsylvania drama also reminds one of the self-evident fact that this war is not fought only "overseas" or in uniform, but is being brought to our cities. Yet Moore is a silly and shady man who does not recognize courage of any sort even when he sees it because he cannot summon it in himself. To him, easy applause, in front of credulous audiences, is everything.

Moore has announced that he won't even appear on TV shows where he might face hostile questioning. I notice from the New York Times of June 20 that he has pompously established a rapid response team, and a fact-checking staff, and some tough lawyers, to bulwark himself against attack. He'll sue, Moore says, if anyone insults him or his pet. Some right-wing hack groups, I gather, are planning to bring pressure on their local movie theaters to drop the film. How dumb or thuggish do you have to be in order to counter one form of stupidity and cowardice with another? By all means go and see this terrible film, and take your friends, and if the fools in the audience strike up one cry, in favor of surrender or defeat, feel free to join in the conversation.

However, I think we can agree that the film is so flat-out phony that "fact-checking" is beside the point. And as for the scary lawyers—get a life, or maybe see me in court. But I offer this, to Moore and to his rapid response rabble. Any time, Michael my boy. Let's redo Telluride. Any show. Any place. Any platform. Let's see what you're made of.

Some people soothingly say that one should relax about all this. It's only a movie. No biggie. It's no worse than the tomfoolery of Oliver Stone. It's kick-ass entertainment. It might even help get out "the youth vote." Yeah, well, I have myself written and presented about a dozen low-budget made-for-TV documentaries, on subjects as various as Mother Teresa and Bill Clinton and the Cyprus crisis, and I also helped produce a slightly more polished one on Henry Kissinger that was shown in movie theaters. So I know, thanks, before you tell me, that a documentary must have a "POV" or point of view and that it must also impose a narrative line. But if you leave out absolutely everything that might give your "narrative" a problem and throw in any old rubbish that might support it, and you don't even care that one bit of that rubbish flatly contradicts the next bit, and you give no chance to those who might differ, then you have betrayed your craft. If you flatter and fawn upon your potential audience, I might add, you are patronizing them and insulting them. By the same token, if I write an article and I quote somebody and for space reasons put in an ellipsis like this (…), I swear on my children that I am not leaving out anything that, if quoted in full, would alter the original meaning or its significance. Those who violate this pact with readers or viewers are to be despised. At no point does Michael Moore make the smallest effort to be objective. At no moment does he pass up the chance of a cheap sneer or a jeer. He pitilessly focuses his camera, for minutes after he should have turned it off, on a distraught and bereaved mother whose grief we have already shared. (But then, this is the guy who thought it so clever and amusing to catch Charlton Heston, in Bowling for Columbine, at the onset of his senile dementia.) Such courage.

Perhaps vaguely aware that his movie so completely lacks gravitas, Moore concludes with a sonorous reading of some words from George Orwell. The words are taken from 1984 and consist of a third-person analysis of a hypothetical, endless, and contrived war between three superpowers. The clear intention, as clumsily excerpted like this (...) is to suggest that there is no moral distinction between the United States, the Taliban, and the Baath Party and that the war against jihad is about nothing. If Moore had studied a bit more, or at all, he could have read Orwell really saying, and in his own voice, the following:

The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writing of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States …

And that's just from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism in May 1945. A short word of advice: In general, it's highly unwise to quote Orwell if you are already way out of your depth on the question of moral equivalence. It's also incautious to remind people of Orwell if you are engaged in a sophomoric celluloid rewriting of recent history.

If Michael Moore had had his way, Slobodan Milosevic would still be the big man in a starved and tyrannical Serbia. Bosnia and Kosovo would have been cleansed and annexed. If Michael Moore had been listened to, Afghanistan would still be under Taliban rule, and Kuwait would have remained part of Iraq. And Iraq itself would still be the personal property of a psychopathic crime family, bargaining covertly with the slave state of North Korea for WMD. You might hope that a retrospective awareness of this kind would induce a little modesty. To the contrary, it is employed to pump air into one of the great sagging blimps of our sorry, mediocre, celeb-rotten culture. Rock the vote, indeed.

Correction, June 22, 2004: This piece originally referred to terrorist attacks by Abu Nidal's group on the Munich and Rome airports. The 1985 attacks occurred at the Rome and Vienna airports. (Return to the corrected sentence.)

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair. His latest book, Blood, Class and Empire: The Enduring Anglo-American Relationship, is out in paperback.
 
efralope said:
he was helping Clinton back in Arkansas, way before his Presidential campaigns...

The reason he was brought in is because he was a personal friend and Carville and Begala couldn't do sh*t past the 40% of Democrats in the country, Republicans were getting their 40% + independents and moderates.

When Carville helped Clinton in '92, it was when Ross Perot was severely splitting the Republican/Conservative vote. After that, with no Ross Perot in the picture, Clinton led the Democrats to a devastating loss in the House and Senate after 40 years of Democratic rule. Morris came in because Clinton knew him and knew he could help Clinton recover for the '96 election, where his job was on the line.

Actually, he not only helped Clinton win re-election in '96, but he helped Vicente Fox win election in Mexico for a party (PAN), breaking 70 years of rule by the PRI party.

Morris also helped some anti-EU party in Britain get almost 20% of the vote this past year, stunning analysts and political types in Britain.

Ture, Lamert or whatever his name is in Australia didn't win, but Morris wasn't advising him, just praising his economically progressive policies.

Morris is pretty much a Democrat in Republican's clothing for now because he believes in aggressive protection of the US homeland, other than that he agrees with Kerry more on social and economic issues...


I'm not disagreeing with you as much as I'm trying to nitpick.

1. It's Latham
2. PAN is a conservative party
 
The message that counts in both Bowling for Columbine and F 9/11 is that Americans are kept in line by fear

That's the message that should resonate quite loud and clear
 
BigJonsson said:
The message that counts in both Bowling for Columbine and F 9/11 is that Americans are kept in line by fear

That's the message that should resonate quite loud and clear

nice it rhymes
 
That article still doesn't dispute any of the facts.

Moore's film is bulletproof. You can't dispute the facts, it's just the spin that has everyone up in arms. That's why you get these long drawn out response articles that dont amount to anything.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
seismologist said:
That article still doesn't dispute any of the facts.

Moore's film is bulletproof. You can't dispute the facts, it's just the spin that has everyone up in arms. That's why you get these long drawn out response articles that dont amount to anything.

gigadent?

Moore's movie is not "bulletproof" and neither is his last one.
 

Tenkei

Member
I suggest people watch "Control Room." It's a documentary of the Iraq war from the viewpoint of the media, and lacks Michael Moore's spin. I'd argue that it's far more balanced than Fahrenheit 9/11 could ever be.
 

FightyF

Banned
I agree, Control Room is far better than F9/11. It's more effective and more of a reliable source.

There are even episodes of the CBC's "Passionate Eye" that totally refuted Bush's claim that Saddam had WMDs...before the invasion!

That's why most Canadians consider Bush a downright liar. We know it...most Americans apparently don't.

Heck I think some churches here consider him the anti-Christ as foretold by Biblical teachings. From what I've read in the Bible I'd be inclined to say that he represents much of Evil, but I wouldn't call him the anti-Christ. BTW, I'm just saying this to piss of WordOfGod because if he's read the Bible he knows it's true.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
seismologist said:
why do you think I'm gigadent?

From your posts in both the gaming and OT forums.

I agree, Control Room is far better than F9/11. It's more effective and more of a reliable source.

But...but...but.. F9/11 has NO LIES and is a bulletproof example of a completely honest documentary ;)

Didn't Control Room just come out on DVD as well?
 
Fight for Freeform said:
I agree, Control Room is far better than F9/11. It's more effective and more of a reliable source.

There are even episodes of the CBC's "Passionate Eye" that totally refuted Bush's claim that Saddam had WMDs...before the invasion!

That's why most Canadians consider Bush a downright liar. We know it...most Americans apparently don't.

Heck I think some churches here consider him the anti-Christ as foretold by Biblical teachings. From what I've read in the Bible I'd be inclined to say that he represents much of Evil, but I wouldn't call him the anti-Christ. BTW, I'm just saying this to piss of WordOfGod because if he's read the Bible he knows it's true.

Yeah "Control Room" was just awesome. It made my eyes wet like so many times.
 

3rdman

Member
Tenkei said:
I suggest people watch "Control Room." It's a documentary of the Iraq war from the viewpoint of the media, and lacks Michael Moore's spin. I'd argue that it's far more balanced than Fahrenheit 9/11 could ever be.

For the last freakin' time...A documentary is SUPPOSED to be biased. It is not supposed to be fair or objective. Don't believe me, well I've got my Film School degree that says that some of you don't know what you're talking about. "Control Room" too is biased...because that is the nature of documentaries. The very fact that a film (any film) is made by a human would keep it from ever being "fair." So, enough of that!

As for the facts in F 9/11, Nobody has been able to adequately counter the accusations posed in it. Its been the opposite actually with more and more reports backing everything that is in the movie. Iraq was a lie...Bush's ties to Saudi Arabia or the fact that his administration has prevented the American public from knowing the truth of that relationship. (Read "Intelligence Matter" by Sen. Bob Graham). You may argue that you don't like how the information is portrayed, but you can't argue the facts by simply pointing to articles and say "read this."
 
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