Support NeoGAF

[HAOHMARU]

DJ Demon J,

If you look at the Pentagon, the only structure that was heavily damaged was from the point of impact and subsequent penitration. There were blast windows on the outside wall that still survived right next to the point of impact. The rooms right next to the point of impact had minimal damage in comparison...most of it was from the fire from the 5,000 gallons of jet fuel.

Now, I didn't say the Pentagon could take a direct hit from a nuclear weapon. It was designed to withstand a nuclear blast though from one that went off close by. Obviously it won't come away unscathed, but it wouldn't get leveled to the ground either. There was a show on the Discovery channel (or PBS) awhile back that went over how well the Pentagon did withstanding the hit from the plane and how it was designed the way it was.

I'm not going to get in an arguement over strengths of nuclear blast or how the architecture of the Pentagon was set up, nobody is an expert here.

Edit: Ok, maybe I used a bad choice of words. It might not have been designed speciffically to withstand a nuclear blast. I saw the show a long time ago. I think the guy might have said it could withstand a nuclear blast (not a direct hit), especially after the renovation the outside walls were going through. Seeing how more of the building did not crumble from the direct impact of a 757 with 5000 gallons of jet fuel, I believe him.

 

[Lucky Forward]

The Pentagon was built before atomic bombs were ever developed, so I don't think that's really an issue.

 

[AeroGod]

You can lay this stupid conspiracy to rest. My dad knows somebody who works food services in the Pentagon. A plane hit it, arguement over. First hand account to the plane hitting.

Carry on with your lives.

I love a good conspiracy too. Roswell, Moon Landing, JFK etc etc, however this is one I know to not be real. Too bad.

 

[Nintendo Ate My Children]

The Pentagon was built before atomic bombs were ever developed, so I don't think that's really an issue.

Yes, but the Pentagon was totally gutted and renovated right before September 11. It was a 10 year, billion dollar renovation program. The renovation ended right before they had to start all over again after 9/11.

 

[Phoenix]

Why did the FBI seize all those surveilance videos that would've shown the plane flowing over the freeway and approaching the pentagon, and refuse to release them to the public?

Yeah, and after the trial is over I want some of the examination pictures from that girl that said she was raped by Kobe.

Oh wait, something that is entered into evidence doesn't become public domain.

 

[Chrono]

We'll probably find out in 10 years, when its too late and nobody cares anyway. I'm not going to comment on this, but for people who question what possible benefit the gvt would have for having the pentagon hit.. please. Wake up.

Again, not commenting on this theory.

Indeed, it will be too late.


And all this time poor bin laden was just misunderstood.



edit: And these guys too maybe....


http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01002

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I'm beginning to love things like this SWF and conspiracy documentaries. Even if they're totally totally wrong, they do a pretty good job of taking information and making it seem like things might be completely different than we assumed. That alone is valuable, I think, in reminding us that anyone can do the same. If an incorrect loony explanation can seem convincing, why couldn't it be that the government also does some things like that?

If it wasn't a plane, or even the plane they said it was, tell me where the passengers and said plane are right now.

I could go on & on, but the biggest flaw with all these conspiracy theories is, if Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, WHERE IS IT and WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PASSENGERS?

Just because Explanation 2 doesn't have an answer for everything, that doesn't make Explanation 1's answer for everything correct. Like someone said earlier in the thread (but aimed at a different group)

Lack of evidence != evidence to the contrary.

The main thing that keeps me from believing in that Flash clip is my inability to see what the government would gain by crashing a plane into the Pentagon (when it was clear to all to see two planes hit the WTC towers). That was easily enough to start the ball rolling for the terrorist manhunt and the war in Iraq. Of course, some argue that even the WTC attacks were engineered as well, but again, I have to wonder to what possible goal the government would have in such a wild scenario.

You said it yourself... the terrorist manhunt and the war in Iraq. Some believe causing (or merely allowing to happen) the attacks that day were to give an excuse for aggressive changes in domestic and foreign policy.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

How many of you have even been to the Pentagon?

 

[AeroGod]

How many of you have even been to the Pentagon?

Ive been there twice. Not recently though.

 

[Phoenix]

We'll probably find out in 10 years, when its too late and nobody cares anyway. I'm not going to comment on this, but for people who question what possible benefit the gvt would have for having the pentagon hit.. please. Wake up.

Again, not commenting on this theory.

They forgot to have gigabit ethernet installed before CounterStrike was allowed in the building so they blew up millions of dollar of structure and kill staff so they could have that wing rebuilt with low latency gaming connections. I mean, that makes about as much sense as having the government blow up portions of the pentagon. Every crime has a motive and there has yet to have been a compelling motive for the US government blowing up huge sections of their infrastructure. I mean wouldn't taking down both WTC towers have been enough?

 

[Kobun Heat]

How many of you have even been to the Pentagon?

Are you now trying to argue that there is no such thing?

 

[Miburou]

Yeah, and after the trial is over I want some of the examination pictures from that girl that said she was raped by Kobe.

Oh wait, something that is entered into evidence doesn't become public domain.

The inability of some people to answer simple questions with simple answers is what ruins threads usually.

And I've seen a lot of evidence being released to the public afterwards, like in the OJ case.

More facts and less witty remarks, please.

 

[Phoenix]

How many of you have even been to the Pentagon?

I've been inside it a few times. Used to work on government projects. The Pentagon isn't some mysterious secret society hang-out, it is a place of business and many civillians work in the place every day.

 

[AeroGod]

Miburou wants to see the burning human flesh pieces and mangled bodies lying upon the lawn of the Pentagon. More wreckage and carange, the more likely he is to believe it,

 

[HAOHMARU]

How many of you have even been to the Pentagon?

I've been inside of it a few times, and I also knew 17 of the people that died that day. This whole conspiracy theory of yours is dishonorable. To think that you believe the U.S. government might have something to do with the death of our own people in the Pentagon that day instead of the terrorists on flight 77...you forever lost respect from me.

 

[Phoenix]

The inability of some people to answer simple questions with simple answers is what ruins threads usually.

And I've seen a lot of evidence being released to the public afterwards, like in the OJ case.

More facts and less witty remarks, please.

Find me some evidence on the Cole bombing, the shootings outside of CIA headquarters, or anything else related to a classified government facility released into the public domain.

While some evidence will be released now that the 9/11 commission (the investigation) is complete, much of that will still be classified above publishing to the public. That's just the way of things.

 

[Miburou]

Find me some evidence on the Cole bombing, the shootings outside of CIA headquarters, or anything else related to a classified government facility released into the public domain.

While some evidence will be released now that the 9/11 commission (the investigation) is complete, much of that will still be classified above publishing to the public. That's just the way of things.

Thank you.

 

[Miburou]

Miburou wants to see the burning human flesh pieces and mangled bodies lying upon the lawn of the Pentagon. More wreckage and carange, the more likely he is to believe it,

Yes, that's exactly it. :sigh:

 

[AeroGod]

Yes, that's exactly it. :sigh:

It must be. Pieces of the plane all the fuck over and a giant fucking hole in the building obviously arnt enough.

 

[DJ Demon J]

I've been inside of it a few times, and I also knew 17 of the people that died that day. This whole conspiracy theory of yours is dishonorable. To think that you believe the U.S. government might have something to do with the death of our own people in the Pentagon that day instead of the terrorists on flight 77...you forever lost respect from me.

Far more than 17 people gave their lives willingly so that all of us could have the freedom to sit here and debate this issue and to continually question the actions of our government (as is our right and duty as citizens of this great country).

 

[AeroGod]

Far more than 17 people gave their lives willingly so that all of us could have the freedom to sit here and debate this issue and to continually question the actions of our government (as is our right and duty as citizens of this great country).

Wha?

 

[Miburou]

It must be. Pieces of the plane all the fuck over and a giant fucking hole in the building obviously arnt enough.

Reading comprehension help a lot, you know.

I already made it clear that I don't believe in any conspiracy, but rather that I have some questions that need answers. My questions were, what happened to the wings (there's an answer to that on snopes.com, that I just read), and why are there no skid marks on the ground surrounding the pentagon.

Again, these are questions, not statements of facts.

 

[HAOHMARU]

Far more than 17 people gave their lives willingly so that all of us could have the freedom to sit here and debate this issue and to continually question the actions of our government (as is our right and duty as citizens of this great country).

There is no debate. Flight 77 struck the Pentagon on 9/11. End of story, move on. If you think otherwise you are delusional.

 

[AeroGod]

Reading comprehension help a lot, you know.

I already made it clear that I don't believe in any conspiracy, but rather that I have some questions that need answers. My questions were, what happened to the wings (there's an answer to that on snopes.com, that I just read), and why are there no skid marks on the ground surrounding the pentagon.

Again, these are questions, not statements of facts.

I clearly remember seeing a place on the ground where the plane hit. Its not like the plane hit the ground hundreds of feet away from the Pentagon and slid all the way there leaving giant trench. Dont believe everything you see in the movies.

 

[Miburou]

I clearly remember seeing a place on the ground where the place hit. Its not like the plane hit the ground hundreds of feet away from the Pentagon and slid all the way there leaving giant trench. Dont believe everything you see in the movies.

Well, if someone can post some pics that show that, then I would greatly appreicate it.

 

[Ceros]

LOL. This is one funny topic, it shows how closed minded people are about the US government today. I mean, it's really idiotic to believe everything told to you by the media. You people do realize, that to the government the general public are just "sheep" and that if they wanted to pull the wool over our eyes for whatever reason, they could do it easily and infact I'm pretty sure they have already. To me, the crooked business practices of some of the top businesses in the country and their close relation to politics and government in the US is reason enough for me to think outside the box. Like I said, we're the general public, we have no position of power in this country. (or we're led to believe this through this whole "democracy" tag, but it's evident by how Bush got elected that this is not true) And don't believe I'm saying this becauseI don't like Bush, I'm saying it because it's mighty funny that his fuckin brother was the gov of the area that had the "botched" voting process. I don't know how any of you could be thinking "inside the box" in this day of age. I've read somethings about the Illuminati and the Masons and junk, and I don't really believe it, but I'm faaaar from saying it's not possible. I actually believe its quite possible and realistic, but thats beside the point. I just think some of you should open your eyes and realize everything is not as peachy and clear cut as it seems.

 

[AeroGod]

LOL. This is one funny topic, it shows how closed minded people are about the US government today. I mean, it's really idiotic to believe everything told to you by the media. You people do realize, that to the government the general public are just "sheep" and that if they wanted to pull the wool over our eyes for whatever reason, they could do it easily and infact I'm pretty sure they have already. To me, the crooked business practices of some of the top businesses in the country and their close relation to politics and government in the US is reason enough for me to think outside the box. Like I said, we're the general public, we have no position of power in this country. (or we're led to believe this through this whole "democracy" tag, but it's evident by how Bush got elected that this is not true) And don't believe I'm saying this becauseI don't like Bush, I'm saying it because it's mighty funny that his fuckin brother was the gov of the area that had the "botched" voting process. I don't know how any of you could be thinking "inside the box" in this day of age. I've read somethings about the Illuminati and the Masons and junk, and I don't really believe it, but I'm faaaar from saying it's not possible. I actually believe its quite possible and realistic, but thats beside the point. I just think some of you should open your eyes and realize everything is not as peachy and clear cut as it seems.

I agree with this sentiment, but you could inturn apply the same POV to the people who make up these stories. If you go around believing every conpiracy because someone with no life and an agenda against a certain group came up some clever little bit of information bullshit. OMFG CONSPIRACY!!! Up in arms!! Government is EVIL! Gag me. People get hung up too much on governmental shit. Me, I dont care, and Im living a better life for it. Whatever is whatever, and its that way untill it starts to effect me on some very noticable level and then I have to step in and do something. I have more important things to worry about.

 

[xsarien]

You know, considering the government couldn't keep a lid on the Abu Grahib scandal, I think expecting them to be able to keep a conspiracy about 9/11 - which is much broader in scope, involves many more x-factors, and relies on even MORE people keeping quiet is a bit, well...

Damned naive.

 

[Matlock]

One side: "Let's let a flash animation back our arguments!"
The other side: "Let's let snopes back our arguments!"

Both sides using the same "evidence!" Wow, dissention!

As for me, right now I could give a shit less about it...but to whoever mentioned that it'd be kind of like the JFK assassination, yeah it will. An event that thousands of people saw, but none of 'em were sure of. A government target. Confiscated and never released tapes.

All the earmarks of what makes both the conspiracy theorests and debunkers go apeshit. Doesn't matter what side you're on in this argument, you're all getting played. What bothers me the most about it, though, is that even the regularly "intelligent" posters are relegating themself to tactics that closely resemble SNL's Point/Counterpoint.

"Jane, you ignorant slut."

 

[Warm Machine]

Whatever is whatever, and its that way untill it starts to effect me on some very noticable level and then I have to step in and do something. I have more important things to worry about.

By the time you actually notice it you will have come under the influence of the mind control device and will work explicitly for the benefit of big brother with no thought of your own!

 

[Dilbert]

I'm about thisclose to locking this thread. Hopefully this gets back on a good track soon.

Why was the damage to the Pentagon comparatively light? I've been inside the Pentagon, and it was designed to be a VERY strong building. The amount of damage done by the plane sounds about right to me, although I certainly don't claim to be an expert in demolitions. Then again, when you think about it, the WTC towers withstood the impact of a high-velocity plane fairly well. If the fire had been contained in time to prevent the structural weakening and collapse (an impossibility), there is a decent chance that they might still be standing.

Why wasn't there a lot of footage of the Pentagon crash? Well, for starters, IT'S THE PENTAGON. There aren't people hanging out near there with recording equipment on your typical workday. (For those of you who don't know much about defense -- cameras are verboten anywhere nearby those kinds of facilities.) On the other hand, every tourist in New York probably has a camera handy. Second, the lockdown at the base after the attack would have kept the general public -- and probably a good chunk of the media -- from getting anywhere near the crash scene.

Why was the media focused on the WTC? 1) Significantly more people died there. 2) Media footage was far easier to obtain. 3) Most major news organization are based in New York City or have large branch offices in NYC. 4) The whole world has a hard-on for NYC. With all due respect to New Yorkers, the place DOES get a disproportionate amount of attention, regardless of the subject. Also, if you think the PENTAGON got shafted for news coverage -- how about the plane which went down in Pennsylvania?

The bottom line is that conspiracy theories are virtually guaranteed to be based on paranoia and a distortion or downright ignorance of the facts. Whatever happened to Occam's Razor? Does anyone actually believe that the SIMPLER explanation was that a secret part of the U.S. government staged an attack on its own populace for the purpose of eventually invading Iraq and reducing civil liberties? And if they went through the trouble of hijacking three jets, why wouldn't they just hijack a fourth, rather than staging a plane crash, detonating a car bomb/missile/whatever, and quietly killing the REAL people who were supposed to be on that flight? Read over this last paragraph carefully, and see if you can hear the hysteria in those kinds of theories.

There is a basic rule of thumb when it comes to secrecy: The probability of keeping something secret is inversely proportional to the number of people who know about it. The sheer magnitude of the effort required to fake the 9/11 attack means that a SHITLOAD of people would had to have been in on the dirty little secret. I find it impossible to believe that the U.S. government found enough people willing to support this kind of brutal attack ON ITS OWN PEOPLE and keep the secret forever, and created fake evidence so convincing that a nation of inquisitors couldn't discover some flaw.

 

[HAOHMARU]

-jinx-,

Excellent points, but I don't think the Pentagon or the air bus in Pennsylvania got shafted on news coverage. I hear about the people that tried to take back the airplane and the "Let's Roll" just as much as the WTC. The Pentagon got just as much coverage as the other two.

I guess, people are thinking the WTC is more important because of the ammount of damage caused and the most people killed. I'm not sure who is forgetting these 3 attacks on 9/11 because I surely haven't, my friends and family haven't and the people I work with haven't.

 

[Alcibiades]

A favorite commentator of mine (on CNN, FOX News, etc..(, Barbara Olson, was part of the Pentagon crew. I couldn't believe it when they reported she was part of that plane crash.

Her husband was even interviewed on Fox News (he's an official or something I think)

 

[Eminem]

Are you now trying to argue that there is no such thing?

:lol :lol now that made me laugh

 

[DaCocoBrova]

No one said anything was fake, but that something other than a plane hit the Pentagon (read: cover up).

I also knew 17 of the people that died that day. This whole conspiracy theory of yours is dishonorable.

So now it's my conspiracy theory?!

Fuck outta here.

Is it true that there was increased airline related stock trading activity days prior to 9/11? Not that I believe that, but still.

 

[xsarien]

No one said anything was fake, but that something other than a plane hit the Pentagon (read: cover up).



So now it's my conspiracy theory?!

Fuck outta here.

In all honesty, which do you think is more likely? A plane hitting the Pentagon, or "something else" hitting the Pentagon, and the government whisking the passengers on board a 757, and the 757 itself, away to some remote place never to be heard from again.

Because, really, that's what you're suggesting, and it's pretty asinine. Friends of friends were killed on 9/11, relatives came much too close for comfort, and friends that work pretty close to the Pentagon were evacuated. I'm probably not alone in this thread, and to say that you're touching a nerve is a bit of an understatement. The facts are (pardon the wording) plain as day. You're looking for stuff beyond them that doesn't exist.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

I'm not suggesting sh!t. The author of that clip did all the suggesting... I'm just asking questions and stating observations.

I have no agenda.

I don't want to come off as callus or uncompassionate (is that a word?), but I don't know anyone who was on that plane, so my life wasn't affected in ways that other people's live were.

Putting faces, names and families affected by the tragedy makes it more 'real' I guess, but the fact remains that there are still a lot of unasnwered question floating around.

 

[Boogie]

How many of you have even been to the Pentagon?

Ive been there twice. Not recently though.

I've been inside it a few times. Used to work on government projects. The Pentagon isn't some mysterious secret society hang-out, it is a place of business and many civillians work in the place every day.

I've been inside of it a few times, and I also knew 17 of the people that died that day. This whole conspiracy theory of yours is dishonorable. To think that you believe the U.S. government might have something to do with the death of our own people in the Pentagon that day instead of the terrorists on flight 77...you forever lost respect from me.

Why was the damage to the Pentagon comparatively light? I've been inside the Pentagon, and it was designed to be a VERY strong building.

 

[Fifty]

I'm not suggesting sh!t. The author of that clip did all the suggesting... I'm just asking questions and stating observations.

I have no agenda.

Do me a favor. Look at the topic title.

 

[Boogie]

I'm not suggesting sh!t. The author of that clip did all the suggesting... I'm just asking questions and stating observations.

I have no agenda.

"I knew it all along! No plane hit the Pentagon"

Give it up.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Please.

 

[xsarien]

I'm not suggesting sh!t. The author of that clip did all the suggesting... I'm just asking questions and stating observations.

Your questions are designed to lend to its veracity. It should be obvious to anyone that the theory in and of itself is flawed to such a degree that the only conclusion one should reach after reading it is that it's complete bullshit.

And, yes, the name of the thread kind of says it all, doesn't it?

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Your questions are designed to lend to its veracity.

Which implies that I have an agenda.

Again, I don't.

Give it up.

It's clear what you believe. That's cool. But there still, even in this very thread, is a divide in terms of what people think really happened.

Let's just agree to disagree... You come off like Lazy8 defending the DC.

 

[Alcibiades]

The amount of people that would be needed to pull off a stunt like this is ridiculous. Hundreds of underground government staffers, military staffers, and their families might accidently get told.

If it was something where 4-5 people were told and there was complete shutdown on the media taking pictures, that's one thing.

But you need hundreds. If it was true, somewhere along the grapevine, somebody would have leaked something.

 

[sc0la]

In all honesty, which do you think is more likely? A plane hitting the Pentagon, or "something else" hitting the Pentagon, and the government whisking the passengers on board a 757, and the 757 itself, away to some remote place never to be heard from again.

Because, really, that's what you're suggesting, and it's pretty asinine. Friends of friends were killed on 9/11, relatives came much too close for comfort, and friends that work pretty close to the Pentagon were evacuated. I'm probably not alone in this thread, and to say that you're touching a nerve is a bit of an understatement. The facts are (pardon the wording) plane as day. You're looking for stuff beyond them that doesn't exist.

Flight 77 doesn't need to magically disappear in order for it not to have hit the pentagon. Yet another in a long line of people in this thread who think, simply because someone has doubts that it was 77 that hit the pentagon, that they must also believe in a whole other host of stuff.

Because a missle (Unlikely) a smaller plane (unlikely) or even a truck bomb (highly unlikely) may have (possibly by stretch of the imagination) hit instead of 77 doesn't mean that a)the pentagon was not hit by terrorists b) people didn't die c) flight 77 and all its occupants were not irrevocably lost.

If it wasn't 77, then what happened to that plane? Crash? Shot down? You don't have to have an answer to question the circumstances.

And firmly for the record, untill otherwise noted I believe it was flight 77, its just the simplist answer (Achems razor and all), but that doesn't meen that the crash circumstances at the pentagon are not weird at best.

EDIT:Unless of course DCB explicitely stated that the passengers were ferried away as part of a greater coverup, I don't know I haven't been reading what he wrote in this thread

 

[Dilbert]

Flight 77 doesn't need to magically disappear in order for it not to have hit the pentagon. Yet another in a long line of people in this thread who think, simply because someone has doubts that it was 77 that hit the pentagon, that they must also believe in a whole other host of stuff.

Ummmm...you have two choices:

1) Flight 77 hit the Pentagon

2) "Something else" damaged the Pentagon and Flight 77 "magically disappeared"

Either way, you have to account for Flight 77. The second option is far less likely because a) three other jets were hijacked, so why not a fourth? and b) "magically disappeared" is hard to do.

 

[Matlock]

"I knew it all along! No plane hit the Pentagon"

Give it up.

Please.

Guys, there's a sandbox over there. You two are the main culprits here, and you're pissing me off. Now see, that's a hard thing to do. Why, you say? DCB: You keep restating the same damn shit repeatedly. Booogie? You're an alright cat otherwise, but quoting messages and going "HAHA YOU ARE OWNED" isn't exactly what you're capable of.

Both of you, cut it. Jesus.

*hand hovers over the ignore button*

 

[xsarien]

Flight 77 doesn't need to magically disappear in order for it not to have hit the pentagon. Yet another in a long line of people in this thread who think, simply because someone has doubts that it was 77 that hit the pentagon, that they must also believe in a whole other host of stuff.

...What?

 

[Semjaza Azazel]

I am watching this and some of the arguments against it are rather stupid. I'm not saying it's true, but there are dozens and dozens of quotes... yet let's focus in on one by someone named "skarlet" and ignore the others?

In any case, I enjoyed the sudden Marilyn Manson song lol... but other than that, I don't see how the music goes against anything else. It's the only remotely "heavy" part of the whole animation.

 

[Boogie]

Guys, there's a sandbox over there. You two are the main culprits here, and you're pissing me off. Now see, that's a hard thing to do. Why, you say? DCB: You keep restating the same damn shit repeatedly. Booogie? You're an alright cat otherwise, but quoting messages and going "HAHA YOU ARE OWNED" isn't exactly what you're capable of.

Both of you, cut it. Jesus.

*hand hovers over the ignore button*

I suppose you're right, Matlock. I'll apologize for that. But at this point, it's obvious that he's not acknowledging the intelligent points from others at all, so harrassing him is about as productive as responding reasonably. I'll stop nonetheless.