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[Count Dookkake]

shh....

I'm busy hating on white people. I'll hate on black people later.

Carry on then.

 

[theBishop]

Black suburbanites share these views. This is not a racial issue.

could be. the fallacy of "suburbs = America" is a bigger problem than race.

 

[Dali]

You're playing with words.

THEY are not changing things. The availability of spanish does notstrip you of the option of english. They are simply being catered to.

It's like complaining about adding ramps tobuildings for handicapped people.

Whereas once things were one way, now they are another. Sounds a lot like change. Comparing it to handicap accessibility is a nice move to vilify me, but not all change is bad.

And if there is an issue with the "steady stream" of immigrants, then do something productive to cut off that stream.

Moving the goal posts. This has nothing to do with the comment I was responding to. My views on border protection and what to do about illegals is a separate issue.

Right now there is no incentive for IAs to learn english and intigrate, and infact there is a disincentive, in being found out and deported.

And with this comment I will concede this argument to you. No incentive for illegal aliens to learn English? Yeah I guess if they are comfortable with growing sod forever.

 

[ForzaItalia]

Well going by the judges surname...I'm guessing his forefathers couldn't speak a lick of English when they first arrived in the US...

 

[Evander]

not all change is bad.

Then what is the problem here?

 

[Dali]

Then what is the problem here?

My problem is that some of it is bad.

 

[Tideas]

- I'm not aware of the legal precedence, but it strikes me as overstepping authority. If the judge gave him a choice between converting to Catholicism or going to jail, would you defend that decision? America is about options, right? (according to whom?)

- Define "successful". If you think a person cannot have job, pay rent, and live a decent life in American without speaking English, you should get out of the sticks.

- I don't think the judge expects these people to ever go to college. Nor is college a gold standard for "success".

- Sure. If they don't want to convert to Catholicism, then they just go to jail. I mean, the option of jail is there. I mean, let's not forget, these men are guilty of a crime. Would I defend that decision? heck yeah I would. If the judge said, convert to Islam, or go to Jail, same thing. As long as the other option is not illegal, immoral, then it's fine. If the judge had said, go to jail, or go kick a dog, then that I can't defend.

- Define "decent".

- But the judge do expect them to contribute to society. And not cost taxpayer money. Come on now, that's the bottom line. If they go to jail, they cost taxpayer money. If they go get a job, they'll put money into the system, and won't have to commit crime anymore.

Could the judge have said, go get a job at a mexican establishment? Sure. But he wants them to learn english. That's his prerogative as judge. He was elected as so. Just like judge are allowed to say, "either you go to jail, or go do community service"

 

[Evander]

My problem is that some of it is bad.

how is it bad?

 

[Evander]

- Sure. If they don't want to convert to Catholicism, then they just go to jail. I mean, the option of jail is there. I mean, let's not forget, these men are guilty of a crime. Would I defend that decision? heck yeah I would. If the judge said, convert to Islam, or go to Jail, same thing. As long as the other option is not illegal, immoral, then it's fine. If the judge had said, go to jail, or go kick a dog, then that I can't defend.

- Define "decent".

- But the judge do expect them to contribute to society. And not cost taxpayer money. Come on now, that's the bottom line. If they go to jail, they cost taxpayer money. If they go get a job, they'll put money into the system, and won't have to commit crime anymore.

Could the judge have said, go get a job at a mexican establishment? Sure. But he wants them to learn english. That's his prerogative as judge. He was elected as so. Just like judge are allowed to say, "either you go to jail, or go do community service"

Wow, I don't know if it is possible to be more wrong.

Force them to convert? Seriously?

 

[Amon37]

I think the better question is "Why do people have a problem with people who don't speak English?" What exactly are these folks doing that make your life so difficult? Are you really interacting that frequently with people who don't speak a lick of English? What circumstances could you possibly be in that everywhere you turn there's a guy who can't answer you?

It's called living in Arizona and going into ANY fucking business establishment. I interact with non/broken English speakers everyday. You name the business and I have a tough time doing business with them. Off the top of my head the only corporate place I can go to that I can actually speak with someone who speaks English is Bestbuy or other electronics B&M places.

 

[Evander]

It's called living in Arizona and going into ANY fucking business establishment. I interact with non/broken English speakers everyday. You name the business and I have a tough time doing business with them. Off the top of my head the only corporate place I can go to that I can actually speak with someone who speaks English is Bestbuy or other electronics B&M places.

And you think it'sverydifferentfrom border towns in other countries?



Mind you, I've never had that problem when I visit Arizona...

 

[Amon37]

And you think it'sverydifferentfrom border towns in other countries?



Mind you, I've never had that problem when I visit Arizona...

No I don't think it's any different. but I can tell you this wasn't the case even 10-15years ago. I'm not saying it's not going to happen given the proximity to Mexico, but I can reply to his post since he thinks it really doesn't affect anyone and isn't a problem.

 

[Evander]

No I don't think it's any different. but I can tell you this wasn't the case even 10-15years ago. I'm not saying it's not going to happen given the proximity to Mexico, but I can reply to his post since he thinks it really doesn't affect anyone and isn't a problem.

I still have yet to see where itis a problem for the country.

It's an inconvenience to you personally, but, you know, freedom, and all that.

You COULD always move to a different town. That's an age old American tradition.

 

[Dali]

how is it bad?

Well blacks and whites have enough issues without another barrier, like language, being added. Spanish speakers will always be a far-removed group as long as they refuse to integrate by learning English.

For instance the semi-recent CNN/Univision presidential debate had the Univision guy asking a question to the candidates in Spanish. The question was is there a downside to the U.S. becoming a bi-lingual nation? I gleamed a sense of entitlement from the question and the crowd's response. Yes, English isn't the "official" language, but it is the unofficial language. Just because you don't have to learn it, doesn't mean they should uncompromisingly separate themselves from American society by leaving that language barrier up.

 

[Evander]

Well blacks and whites have enough issues without another barrier, like language, being added. Spanish speakers will always be a far-removed group as long as they refuse to integrate by learning English.

For instance the semi-recent CNN/Univision presidential debate had the Univision guy asking a question to the candidates in Spanish. The question was is there a downside to the U.S. becoming a bi-lingual nation? I gleamed a sense of entitlement from the question and the crowd's response. Yes, English isn't the "official" language, but it is the unofficial language. Just because you don't have to learn it, doesn't mean they should uncompromisingly separate themselves from American society by leaving that language barrier up.

I don't disagree with you on principle.

But it is still THEIR choice to make.



Do you advocate direct government involvement in all issues, or only this one?

 

[Flynn]

It's called living in Arizona and going into ANY fucking business establishment. I interact with non/broken English speakers everyday. You name the business and I have a tough time doing business with them. Off the top of my head the only corporate place I can go to that I can actually speak with someone who speaks English is Bestbuy or other electronics B&M places.

So you walk into The Gap and nobody speaks English? Starbucks?

 

[Evander]

Starbucks?

To be fair, their menu isn't in English ANYWHERE

 

[Flynn]

To be fair, their menu isn't in English ANYWHERE

This is a good point.

Most of the places you go you use the same six or seven words. It's only when you start pushing the limits of the interaction that most people ever have problems.

I have a friend who is always bitching about how parking attendants don't speak English. What the fuck do you really need to say to these guys? Give them your eight bucks, park your fucking car and get on with your life.

 

[Dali]

Do you advocate direct government involvement in all issues, or only this one?

I don't too much care for the implication here. Do you advocate government involvement in everything or just as it relates to car insurance?

 

[Evander]

This is a good point.

Most of the places you go you use the same six or seven words. It's only when you start pushing the limits of the interaction that most people ever have problems.

I have a friend who is always bitching about how parking attendants don't speak English. What the fuck do you really need to say to these guys? Give them your eight bucks, park your fucking car and get on with your life.

My favorite is the bitching about tech support outsourcing.

If you have a simple problem, their script will cover it.

If you have a complex problem, you're going to need to talk to their supervisor anyway.

 

[Evander]

I don't too much care for the implication here. Do you advocate government involvement in everything or just as it relates to car insurance?

I advocate government involvement in areas that may have direct safety and/or large monetary effects on innocent citizens.

 

[Dali]

I advocate government involvement in areas that may have direct safety and/or large monetary effects on innocent citizens.

Well, I advocate government involvement on a case by case basis.

 

[Evander]

Well, I advocate government involvement on a case by case basis.

based on what? your own personal convenience?

 

[Flynn]

My favorite is the bitching about tech support outsourcing.

If you have a simple problem, their script will cover it.

If you have a complex problem, you're going to need to talk to their supervisor anyway.

I doesn't matter what language you're speaking, there's a part of the population will hear that accent or see that your face looks different and immediately stop understanding what you're saying. And that goes for all sides of this argument. I've been in other countries speaking perfectly workable Farsi, French, Spanish, whatever and had people immediately close up because they automatically assume that because of our differences we can't communicate.

Accents and languages barriers aren't that hard to deal with. All you really have to do is listen.

Here's the ugly truth. Most people don't want to communicate with people that aren't their own kind. They find it distasteful.

 

[Amon37]

So you walk into The Gap and nobody speaks English? Starbucks?

Depending on which one, yes, you can walk in and the people trying to serve you have a difficulty speaking or understanding English.

They hire "Bi-lingual" people except their Spanish is great and their English sucks. Hell I've had an easier time sometimes speaking to them in my broken half-ass Spanish.

 

[Evander]

I doesn't matter what language you're speaking, there's a part of the population will hear that accent or see that your face looks different and immediately stop understanding what you're saying. And that goes for all sides of this argument. I've been in other countries speaking perfectly workable Farsi, French, Spanish, whatever and had people immediately close up because they automatically assume that because of our differences we can't communicate.

Accents and languages barriers aren't that hard to deal with. All you really have to do is listen.

Here's the ugly truth. Most people don't want to communicate with people that aren't their own kind. They find it distasteful.

Oh, I hear you on that.

I'm tri-lingual myself, but it never ceasesto amaze me how scared folks are of other cultures and languages.

 

[Dali]

based on what? your own personal convenience?

I don't have the same problems as some of the other posters here so it's not a matter of convenience for me. I just see it as being divisive. It's an issue that could have been laid to rest before the Spanish speaking population exploded, but is only an issue now because of its growing prevalence and will only get harder to change as time passes. We don't look alike like citizens from other countries or have common surnames. Language is one of the few things that America has that ties its citizens together.

 

[Evander]

I don't have the same problems as some of the other posters here so it's not a matter of convenience for me. I just see it as being divisive. It's an issue that could have been laid to rest before the Spanish speaking population exploded, but is only an issue now because of its growing prevalence and will only get harder to change as time passes. We don't look alike like citizens from other countries or have common surnames. Language is one of the few things that America has that ties its citizens together.

If language is all that ties us together, then we ought to just dis-unite the states.

Each state individually DOES have the right to declare an official language.



It's our freedom that ties us together.

 

[Dali]

If language is all that ties us together, then we ought to just dis-unite the states.

Each state individually DOES have the right to declare an official language.



It's our freedom that ties us together.

So the thing that separates an Italian person from a Spanish person is their freedom? We all share the same freedom, but I'm not sure how that is a unifying factor unless you are of the belief that other countries don't have similar liberties.

edit: You win dude. I'm backing out of this argument.

 

[Flynn]

It's our freedom that ties us together.

Amen, brother.

 

[Evander]

So the thing that separates an Italian person from a Spanish person is their freedom?

Huh?

The thing that seperates an American from a frenchman, or a german, etc., is our freedom.

 

[Flynn]

So the thing that separates an Italian person from a Spanish person is their freedom?

The thing that separates Italians and Spanish are borders and governments. It's the same thing that separates American and Mexicans.

When the borders and governments are out of the way people make up their own ways to separate the groups.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't see the problem. If you're going to LIVE in this country, you need to learn the language. These guys were already criminals apparently, so I see no issue with leveling such bizarre punishment.

It's one thing if you're visiting or on a short term trip, but after a certain period of time it's simply inconsiderate to everyone for you not to learn the language. I would learn Japanese if I intended to live in Japan, I would learn French if I intended to live in France for a while.

Learn the language.

 

[Evander]

if I intended to live in Japan, I would learn French

This was the first thingI saw when I looked at your post, and I was VERY confused.

 

[Flynn]

I don't see the problem. If you're going to LIVE in this country, you need to learn the language. These guys were already criminals apparently, so I see no issue with leveling such bizarre punishment.

It's one thing if you're visiting or on a short term trip, but after a certain period of time it's simply inconsiderate to everyone for you not to learn the language. I would learn Japanese if I intended to live in Japan, I would learn French if I intended to live in France for a while.

Learn the language.

The language is Spanish now. Sorry.

 

[Amir0x]

This was the first thingI saw when I looked at your post, and I was VERY confused.

French is coming up quick in Japan, I hear.

 

[Flynn]

Learn the language.

My attitude is, "if you're going to talk to a person, learn the language."

 

[Evander]

French is coming up quick in Japan, I hear.

It is the language of love.

And the Japanese love tentacle rape.





On a serious note, I don't disagree that immigrants SHOULD learn english, but I believe that (in general) it is wrong to force them.


Of course, I agree with this ruling being a wonderful leniency, and see theenglish there asbeing no different from the GED; he's making them obtain a skillset so that they can earn an honest living instead of returning to crime.

 

[JDSN]

Sounds like he watched the Fight Club or something. I think he did a pretty good thing, it will help them to integrate the society and maybe contribute to it, and if they fuck up they go back to prison.

 

[Amir0x]

I agree we shouldn't FORCE THEM to learn English, although in the case of criminals I don't see why it's not a perfectly acceptable punishment. After all, it's partly education... which can only be a good thing.

But in general I agree forcing people is wrong. On that token if you're going to live here and you don't learn the language, don't be angry when people treat you shitty. They shouldn't have to find a translator because you're incapable of stringing three words together after ten years of living in a country. The other day this Spanish chick came to my house - and mind you, I am partly Puerto Rican - and she couldn't speak a goddamn word of English. She kept trying to tell me something, pointing at her address book but I couldn't make heads or tails of what she actually wanted in the end. Then she was getting angry with me! Well fuck you, ya stupid asshole. Learn English.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Talk about a misleading sensational headline.

There's really no problem to be had here, they are convicted and are actually given two choices, the good ole get your behind thrown in jail or the alternatively very lenient sentencing. Either way they have to oblige by the sentencing, except this time they got an extremely lenient choice to be had effectively giving them a second chance.

 

[DJ Sl4m]

I agree we shouldn't FORCE THEM to learn English, although in the case of criminals I don't see why it's not a perfectly acceptable punishment. After all, it's partly education... which can only be a good thing.

But in general I agree forcing people is wrong. On that token if you're going to live here and you don't learn the language, don't be angry when people treat you shitty.

Well said :clap

Also.............. I bet the Europeans reading this thread are shaking their heads in disgust at how narrow minded and arrogant Americans are trying to force the English language on everyone that comes to the US. Funny how US citizens try to stop everything where it is to keep their comfort zone and forget this country was built and made by nothing but foreigners speaking different languages.

We really shouldn't be so quick to be as narrow minded as to demand everyone that enter our country be forced to speak the English language, all the countries in Europe have been dealing with multi language speaking nations for hundreds of years, why dumb our country down ? Maybe it's time more Americans stopped being lazy asses and actually learned a few extra languages as well as those moving into the country.......

Gangs Of New York

:bow

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

I say they should just get it over with and finally declare English the official language of the US.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

FUTA............English
FUTA..........English
FUTA.........English
FUTA.......English
FUTA......English
FUTA.....English
FUTA....English
FUTA...English
FUTA..English
FUTA.English

ENGLISH.


English is a silly word as well, sounds weird.

 

[Evander]

I agree we shouldn't FORCE THEM to learn English, although in the case of criminals I don't see why it's not a perfectly acceptable punishment. After all, it's partly education... which can only be a good thing.

This particular verdict I agree with, because there is a reason (honestly, I'd love to see something similar implimented nationwide for drop-outs who commit a non-violent first offense, regardless of race.) But in general, I'd be hesitant of the legal system forcing people to learn a particular thing, without clear justification, because that could easily be used to push various religions or political doctrines, etc.

 

[Broktune]

Well, living in Las Vegas, this city has had a HUGE surge in the mexican population. I think the whole language thing is just something we are going to have to get used to. Pretty soon, I see English and Spanish being the official languages of this country. Do I like it? Not really. I think people should at least try to learn the language of the country. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which side you are on, our country is very lenient and accomodating to the spanish language. If any of you live in California or Vegas, you know what I mean. There's nothing that can be done, the Mexican population is going to continue to explode in the US. We have to get used to it for better or for worse.

 

[theBishop]

Well, living in Las Vegas, this city has had a HUGE surge in the mexican population. I think the whole language thing is just something we are going to have to get used to. Pretty soon, I see English and Spanish being the official languages of this country. Do I like it? Not really. I think people should at least try to learn the language of the country. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which side you are on, our country is very lenient and accomodating to the spanish language. If any of you live in California or Vegas, you know what I mean. There's nothing that can be done, the Mexican population is going to continue to explode in the US. We have to get used to it for better or for worse.

The funny thing to me is it seems to be social conservative folks who have such a problem with it. Well, guess what, "Free, Unfettered Trade" is the biggest reason these people can't survive in their own country.

 

[Flynn]

I say they should just get it over with and finally declare English the official language of the US.

How are you going to call it "official" when half the people already here can't speak or write it properly. It's more of a target. We aim to speak English here and sometimes we actually succeed.

 

[2DMention]

*Clap*

 

[Amir0x]

How are you going to call it "official" when half the people already here can't speak or write it properly. It's more of a target. We aim to speak English here and sometimes we actually succeed.

I'm sorry can I see some statistics on how half the country - over 150,000,000 - can't speak or write English "properly." While we're there, please define what you mean by "properly."

And then when you do that, please tell me why it's a negative then to declare English the official language and make that "target" more essential, even outside of any so-called 'unifying nature' of language.

Answer is worth 50 points.