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"I need a new PC!" 2010 Edition

brain_stew said:
It'll play fantastically on that system, enjoy! :D

Be sure to hook that thing upto a HDTV and make use of that BD drive while you're on, it can be the ultimate media centre/games console if you want it to be.

Oh and just as I'm curious what's your current rig? If you've been out of the high end PC gaming arena for a while there's an assload of games that can be had for dirt cheap though DD for you to catch up on. You can quickly build up a great library of recent PC games for dirt cheap these days by picking up bundle packs or waiting for Steam sales.
Click to expand...
This will be my first high end rig :D. Currently I am just using a Dell XPS M1530 laptop, which is fine for web browsing etc, but other than running Zuma, it cannot do a whole lot. In the past, I have only used my PC to play FFXI, while all of my other gaming has been on a console. Really for the last year though, I have wanted to enter the high end PC gaming scene, but was just reading up on things and waiting. However, with FFXIV on the horizon I knew the time was near to buy something. I am definitely interested in building a solid PC gaming library now that I have an excellent machine on the way!

kagete said:
Whew boy you really couldn't wait! Post pics when you get your new toy!
Click to expand...
No I could not wait any longer! I had been shopping around for a little over a week, plus the beta starts today, so I was getting antsy :) For sure I will post some pics once it arrives, its scheduled to ship out next Tuesday (7/20).
 
Teknoman said:
Thinking about upgrading my motherboard and CPU, yet want to keep using my current ram and video card:

My PC: Athlon 64 X2 6400, 4GB ram (PC 6400 DDR2) , Radeon 4870 1GB.

I've already got a decent case and 650w power supply from my current build. I'm guessing theres nothing wrong with using DDR2 ram on a motherboard that may support DDR3 right?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a DDR2 board today, so go with something like this? http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=44632&vpn=GA-MA78LM-S2H&manufacture=Gigabyte

Throw in a athlon II x4 or whatever fits your budget and you'd be looking pretty decent.

And no, you cannot interchange DDR3 and DDR2. Either stick with a low-end DDR2 board or get a nice DDR3 board and buy new ram.
 
TouchMyBox said:
I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a DDR2 board today, so go with something like this? http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=44632&vpn=GA-MA78LM-S2H&manufacture=Gigabyte

Throw in a athlon II x4 or whatever fits your budget and you'd be looking pretty decent.

And no, you cannot interchange DDR3 and DDR2. Either stick with a low-end DDR2 board or get a nice DDR3 board and buy new ram.
Click to expand...

Hmm...well in that case, I might as well go for new ram, motherboard, and cpu just to keep up to date. I'd think my video card would last a little longer, so im not worried about that.
 
Teknoman said:
Thinking about upgrading my motherboard and CPU, yet want to keep using my current ram and video card:

My PC: Athlon 64 X2 6400, 4GB ram (PC 6400 DDR2) , Radeon 4870 1GB.

I've already got a decent case and 650w power supply from my current build. I'm guessing theres nothing wrong with using DDR2 ram on a motherboard that may support DDR3 right?
Click to expand...

The fact that it flat out won't work may be an issue.

My advice would be to check what CPUs are compatible with your motherboard. If any Phenom ii X4s or X6s are, then snag one of them for a nice cheap upgrade. There's no reason to buy new RAM and a motherboard if they don't have to. DDR3 RAM isn't goig to give you any performance benefits.
 
Teknoman said:
Hmm...well in that case, I might as well go for new ram, motherboard, and cpu just to keep up to date. I'd think my video card would last a little longer, so im not worried about that.
Click to expand...

If you're looking to go high end without breaking the bank, let me suggest the following.

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=52043&vpn=GA-890FXA-UD5&manufacture=Gigabyte

http://ncix.com/products/?sku=52066&vpn=HDT55TFBGRBOX&manufacture=AMD&promoid=1034

http://ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=42745&vpn=F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL&manufacture=G.Skill&promoid=1034

Just built a rig based on those parts and it was a really fantastic value after doing some pricematching.

brain_stew said:
My advice would be to check what CPUs are compatible with your motherboard. If any Phenom ii X4s or X6s are, then snag one of them for a nice cheap upgrade. There's no reason to buy new RAM and a motherboard if they don't have to. DDR3 RAM isn't goig to give you any performance benefits.
Click to expand...

This too.
 
Classic_Gs said:
This will be my first high end rig :D. Currently I am just using a Dell XPS M1530 laptop, which is fine for web browsing etc, but other than running Zuma, it cannot do a whole lot. In the past, I have only used my PC to play FFXI, while all of my other gaming has been on a console. Really for the last year though, I have wanted to enter the high end PC gaming scene, but was just reading up on things and waiting. However, with FFXIV on the horizon I knew the time was near to buy something. I am definitely interested in building a solid PC gaming library now that I have an excellent machine on the way!
Click to expand...

There's really no better time to do that than now. My advice would be just pick up games here and there when Steam sales hit and then splurge like crazy in the holiday sale. In the mega summer sale just gone the likes of THQ and Square Enix were offering 20+ games each for less than the price of a single console game, and that includes new titles like Metro 2033, Batman, Dawn of War 2 and all manner of other good stuff. A couple of packs like that could easily last you an entire year and it'll cost you less than a $100.
 
brain_stew said:
The fact that it flat out won't work may be an issue.

My advice would be to check what CPUs are compatible with your motherboard. If any Phenom ii X4s or X6s are, then snag one of them for a nice cheap upgrade. There's no reason to buy new RAM and a motherboard if they don't have to. DDR3 RAM isn't goig to give you any performance benefits.
Click to expand...

My current motherboard only supports Socket AM2 940 processors.
 
Teknoman said:
My current motherboard only supports Socket AM2 940 processors.
Click to expand...

No AM2+ support at all?

Well that's a non starter then, was worth investigating at least. The original Phenoms aren't worth bothering with.
 
Shambles said:
Not that we don't trust you but what's the model of your motherboard?
Click to expand...

brain_stew said:
No AM2+ support at all?

Well that's a non starter then, was worth investigating at least. The original Phenoms aren't worth bothering with.
Click to expand...

:lol no prob, just reading off the box. its a Abit AN52 motherboard.
 
That's too bad, it's nice when you can get away with not having to upgrade the MB/RAM. I see a BIOS update #16 that was released halfway through 2008 but I don't think it's exactly what we're looking for.

BIOS ID:16


1. Update CPU Micro code to support Phenom CPU and Athlon 4X50 series and Sempron X2 CPU. (The S3 return fails when used Phenom CPU, this issue is chipset issue.)
2. BIOS compiled date: 06/30/2008.


Were the original phenoms AM2 only?
 
Teknoman said:
Right now, i'd settle for a decent quad core I guess. Anymore than that would probably be overdoing it at the moment, right?
Click to expand...

The athlon II X4 630/635 are great quad cores for the 100$ price point. You could also pair them with a motherboard that uses DDR2 but as it's on its way out the door you'll definitely be upgrading your memory the next time you upgrade your machine. If you just want to be thrifty here and now it's a perfect option. If you tend to upgrade every few years DDR3 will carry you into your next machine for sure.
 
Shambles said:
The athlon II X4 630/635 are great quad cores for the 100$ price point. You could also pair them with a motherboard that uses DDR2 but as it's on its way out the door you'll definitely be upgrading your memory the next time you upgrade your machine. If you just want to be thrifty here and now it's a perfect option. If you tend to upgrade every few years DDR3 will carry you into your next machine for sure.
Click to expand...

Yeah im probably going to just go ahead and update to a motherboard that uses DDR3. No sense in buying another motherboard just to use DDR2 again if its on its way out.

By the way, was the X2 6400 a bottleneck for my Radeon?
 
Hey pcmasterraceGAF, my 8 year old dell dimension is looking like it's about to bite the dust, and I am looking at upgrading for absolutely as cheap as possible. As in, I was wondering if my case, power supply, fan, etc. would be OK or to continue using or not. I would also like recommendations on some parts that I could get very cheaply (I'm totally fine with buying used or open box if the site/store has a good return policy), and that I could maybe upgrade in a year or two to get decent FFXIV, Red Orchestra 2, SC2, Diablo 3, etc, performance.

From the research I've done, it seems like a good route to go would be to get a mobo that would fit an i5/i7, and get a cheap i5 now and upgrade in the future. Would this be right?

As of right now, I would only use it to run:

-Internet stuff
-TF2
-and running the more compatible games in PCSX2 would be a big plus

It seems like integrated graphics might do me fine in the immediate near term, and I could get a graphics card in the near future, or next couple years.

For reference, my machine right now is a P4 with 512mb RD ram and a radeon 9700pro, so just about anything would be a monumental improvement. :lol

Any advice, suggestions, links to hardware, insults, abuse, etc. greatly appreciated!
 
Teknoman said:
Yeah im probably going to just go ahead and update to a motherboard that uses DDR3. No sense in buying another motherboard just to use DDR2 again if its on its way out.

By the way, was the X2 6400 a bottleneck for my Radeon?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that cpu will definitely keep back that video card in most cases. Get yourself something decent like the board I linked earlier with USB3 and SATA3 and your rig will remain relevant for quite a ways forward. At $200, I definitely don't think that going for a Hexa-core is "over-doing it" but whether you're going for an athlon II x4, a phenom II x4 or a x6, you really can't go wrong.
 
leroidys said:
Hey pcmasterraceGAF, my 8 year old dell dimension is looking like it's about to bite the dust, and I am looking at upgrading for absolutely as cheap as possible. As in, I was wondering if my case, power supply, fan, etc. would be OK or to continue using or not. I would also like recommendations on some parts that I could get very cheaply (I'm totally fine with buying used or open box if the site/store has a good return policy), and that I could maybe upgrade in a year or two to get decent FFXIV, Red Orchestra 2, SC2, Diablo 3, etc, performance.

From the research I've done, it seems like a good route to go would be to get a mobo that would fit an i5/i7, and get a cheap i5 now and upgrade in the future. Would this be right?

As of right now, I would only use it to run:

-Internet stuff
-TF2
-and running the more compatible games in PCSX2 would be a big plus

It seems like integrated graphics might do me fine in the immediate near term, and I could get a graphics card in the near future, or next couple years.

For reference, my machine right now is a P4 with 512mb RD ram and a radeon 9700pro, so just about anything would be a monumental improvement. :lol

Any advice, suggestions, links to hardware, insults, abuse, etc. greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Holy crap, Rambus!

I remember that stuff. :lol
 
·feist· said:
As I mentioned before, something is off with Newegg.com's pricing as of late. Amazon's $30 list price isn't actually a deal since the Hyper 212+ has an MSRP of $29.99.

Microcenter seems tio be one of the few places that still has a regular sale on the 212+. It was marked down to $20 a few weeks ago and I believe it's at $25 now.

edIt: MC has it back down to $20 again, online and in-store

0315397_303198.jpg


Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus Universal CPU Cooler $19.99
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0315397
Click to expand...

I have this on my quad and didn't realize how well it worked until I got a good case. It's pretty amazing for the price.
 
leroidys said:
Hey pcmasterraceGAF, my 8 year old dell dimension is looking like it's about to bite the dust, and I am looking at upgrading for absolutely as cheap as possible. As in, I was wondering if my case, power supply, fan, etc. would be OK or to continue using or not. I would also like recommendations on some parts that I could get very cheaply (I'm totally fine with buying used or open box if the site/store has a good return policy), and that I could maybe upgrade in a year or two to get decent FFXIV, Red Orchestra 2, SC2, Diablo 3, etc, performance.

From the research I've done, it seems like a good route to go would be to get a mobo that would fit an i5/i7, and get a cheap i5 now and upgrade in the future. Would this be right?

As of right now, I would only use it to run:

-Internet stuff
-TF2
-and running the more compatible games in PCSX2 would be a big plus

It seems like integrated graphics might do me fine in the immediate near term, and I could get a graphics card in the near future, or next couple years.

For reference, my machine right now is a P4 with 512mb RD ram and a radeon 9700pro, so just about anything would be a monumental improvement. :lol

Any advice, suggestions, links to hardware, insults, abuse, etc. greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

For a super cheap build you want to salvage as much as possible. Unfortuntely the downside of buying OEM machines is that they want you to stop from being able to do that. The case is likely the proper form factor but with a Dell the pin connections for the power/reset buttons are likely non-standard. Also at 8 years old you'll have to look up information about the PSU. For a time dell was using PSUs that were standard ATX size, but wired them differently causing all sorts of headaches of people frying components/PSUs when trying to upgrade. They stopped doing that but you'll want to make sure before you do anything. Hopefully you can reuse the case, PSU, optical drive, disk drive (Although a machine that old probably has a brutally slow HDD), KB/M, monitor etc...

If you're lucky all you will need is a CPU, MB, and memory. At the super budget range you're looking at the athlon II 635, a 100$ MB with the integrated ATI 4200 video on it and whatever DDR3 memory is popular and the cheapest. All in all can be done for 300$. I've played games like L4D on the 4200 on the lowest settings and it was passible, but definitely something you'll want to throw a dedicated GPU into down the road. If you have the model number we can probably find more information about your case/PSU. Dell's used to be very upgrade unfriendly but that have improved in recent years, 8 years ago doesn't bode well though.

Edit: Looking around i'm guessing it's the Dimension 8250?

It looks like they had the screwy PSUs from 1996-2000 so you should be safe. You'd still have to look at your case and looks at all the connectors for power/reset/led buttons, the USB connectors, and the riser locations where you screw in the motherboard to the case.

On the power supply you'll want to make sure you have the proper power connectors. Most motherboards now use 24-pin power connections and possibly an 8 pin CPU power connection on the motherboard. Your PSU might just have a 20pin for the MB and 4 pin for the CPU, sometimes this is ok and you can get away with it, especially for lower power systems.
 
Success!! Motherfucking Success!!

Question: How the fuck can I install ATI Catalyst. I couldn't use the setup.exe cause it always stops processing after extracting and selecting English (have this problem with previous ATI card too in laptop). I did a "Add a New Hardware" and I found the driver, but there is an "unknown" device that I can't get rid off.

Help? :)
 
leroidys said:
Hey pcmasterraceGAF, my 8 year old dell dimension is looking like it's about to bite the dust, and I am looking at upgrading for absolutely as cheap as possible. As in, I was wondering if my case, power supply, fan, etc. would be OK or to continue using or not. I would also like recommendations on some parts that I could get very cheaply (I'm totally fine with buying used or open box if the site/store has a good return policy), and that I could maybe upgrade in a year or two to get decent FFXIV, Red Orchestra 2, SC2, Diablo 3, etc, performance.

From the research I've done, it seems like a good route to go would be to get a mobo that would fit an i5/i7, and get a cheap i5 now and upgrade in the future. Would this be right?

As of right now, I would only use it to run:

-Internet stuff
-TF2
-and running the more compatible games in PCSX2 would be a big plus

It seems like integrated graphics might do me fine in the immediate near term, and I could get a graphics card in the near future, or next couple years.

For reference, my machine right now is a P4 with 512mb RD ram and a radeon 9700pro, so just about anything would be a monumental improvement. :lol

Any advice, suggestions, links to hardware, insults, abuse, etc. greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...
Is this, more or less, along the lines of what you have (mainly the 1st link)?

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/14733/review/dimension_8250.html
http://www.nmptek.com/dell?product_id=142

If so, open up your PC and see if this is the PSU inside it:

http://www.cheeverind.com/parts/HP-P2507F3P.aspx

Outside of carrying over your optical drive(s), I don't know what more you can really transfer over to a worthwhile gaming system. That case is out. Did you buy a fan or are you referring to the OEM unit? While you have your system open, see if this is it:

http://www.cwc-group.com/3612kl04wb66.html

Yes? Yours may have a slightly different head, but it would still pose a minor problem with a modern motherboard. You can get it to run on a mobo or via a molex adapter, but it's a slightly unnatural fit.

If your system matches the above, I almost feel that you'd be best served donating it for a tax write-off (probably net you a better result than trying to sell it) and just starting from scratch. Can you save up some money/work extra hours? If you had about $450-600 it'd be a good starting point.

For some more specific help/suggestions, take a look at the following:

Hazaro said:
*Reposting*
1)Basic Desktop Questions

Budget: Price Range + Country
Main Use: Gaming, Video editing, or just general usage
Monitor Resolution: What resolution will you be playing your games at? Are you going to upgrade later?
List SPECIFIC games that you MUST be able to play: Self Explanatory

2)General Guide on what to buy (Summer)
Tech Report Builders Guide!
A very good basic guide that has been updated for Summer. Has alternative options and many price points.


3) 15 minute video how-to
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/video_how_build_pc_ever_step_explained
40 minute how-to
http://www.tested.com/news/video-how-to-build-the-best-1500-gaming-pc-step-by-step/152/
Click to expand...
 
bucklam66 said:
Does anyone have any experiences with these cards?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814261062
Click to expand...
I have the 512MB version. They're 675MHz and not 700MHz like it says in the newegg specs. So that basically makes them a 9800GTX. That $30 rebate is nice though which is why I got mine, it was a quick replacement for a troublesome 4850(even after I had RMA'ed it). Get it if you're ok with getting a 9800GTX instead of a proper GTS 250(which itself is a rebadged 9800GTX+).
 
vazel said:
I have the 512MB version. They're 675MHz and not 700MHz like it says in the newegg specs. So that basically makes them a 9800GTX. That $30 rebate is nice though which is why I got mine, it was a quick replacement for a troublesome 4850(even after I had RMA'ed it). Get it if you're ok with getting a 9800GTX instead of a proper GTS 250(which itself is a rebadged 9800GTX+).
Click to expand...

So is it a tossup btw. that and a HD 5750 basically. ( I have read reviews, just wanted GAf's opinion and that was a good price)
 
What's the best upgrade I can make to my PC?

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955
Motherboard: Asus M4A78 Plus AM2/AM2+/AM3
RAM: Corsair XMS2 2x2GB
GPU: eVGA nVidia 8800GTS 512
HDD: WD 320GB Blue
Optical: DVD-ROM, DVD-RW
PSU: Corsair 400w 80 Plus. (30A on +12V)

Bolded is what I'm thinking. Would the 460GTX be good? (based purely on specs and not the non-existent reviews)
 
darthbob said:
What's the best upgrade I can make to my PC?

CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955
Motherboard: Asus M4A78 Plus AM2/AM2+/AM3
RAM: Corsair XMS2 2x2GB
GPU: eVGA nVidia 8800GTS 512
HDD: WD 320GB Blue
Optical: DVD-ROM, DVD-RW
PSU: Corsair 400w 80 Plus. (30A on +12V)

Bolded is what I'm thinking. Would the 460GTX be good? (based purely on specs and not the non-existent reviews)
Click to expand...

Depends. On the ATI side your PSU limits you up to a 5850, on the Nvidia side we'll have to wait and see what the power consumption on the 460 looks like. Anything under those cards you just pick based on price/performance and features.
 
bucklam66 said:
So the GTS 250 and HD 5750 are not competing products?:lol
Click to expand...
The GTS 250 E-Green and 5750 trade blows pretty evenly. But the 5750 has the advantage of DX11. Go with the ati unless you prefer nvidia's drivers and nhancer like I do.
 
Teknoman said:
Alright how about this:

AMD Athlon II X4 630 Propus 2.8GHz
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103704

GIGABYTE GA-MA74GM-S2 AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 740G Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128342
Click to expand...

I would suggest somewith with USB 3.0 and SATA3 like this GIGABYTE GA-770TA-UD3

The MB you have listed is a DDR2 motherboard with integrated video. The one I suggested costs more but uses the DDR3 that I believe you were leaning towards, and does not have an integrated video chip. I seem to remember you already having a 4850 right?

Edit: Or you could go with the Tech Reports suggestion of the GA-870A-UD3 that costs a little bit more but has the newer AMD chipset on it.
 
Shambles said:
I would suggest somewith with USB 3.0 and SATA3 like this GIGABYTE GA-770TA-UD3

The MB you have listed is a DDR2 motherboard with integrated video. The one I suggested costs more but uses the DDR3 that I believe you were leaning towards, and does not have an integrated video chip. I seem to remember you already having a 4850 right?
Click to expand...

Radeon 4870. I was only leaning toward DDR3 before Brain stew was saying that you really wouldnt see that much of a difference between DDR3 and 2. So I figured I could take the cheap way out, get a decent quad core and motherboard, keeping my current ram and video card.

Probably would go with the Phenom II X4 in the end. Decided to go the cheap yet substantial upgrade route.

So i'd be going from this:

AMD Athlon X2 6400+
4 GB Ram
Radeon 4870 1GB

to

AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black
4 GB Ram
Radeon 4870

Would pay 209.98 plus 7 bucks shipping.
 
My new PC is working great. My only complaint is the fan on my CPU cooler. I got a Hyper 212+ and it's continually revving as the cpu clocks itself up and down. It's just a 120mm fan, so I think I could replace it with anything, really.

So, what's the quietest 120mm CPU fan I can get? Needs to have the CPU-fan connector on it..
 
Shambles said:
I would suggest somewith with USB 3.0 and SATA3 like this GIGABYTE GA-770TA-UD3
Click to expand...
I wouldn't get that mobo as it doesn't support the 'old' 1055 or 1090 x6. It only supports the recently released 95w versions of those chips. I had 2 other GB mobos up on newegg and though that was what you link. That mobo does indeed support the x6's and is fine.
However, I'd rather save the DDR2 for this build unless you want to sell the sticks and pick up some DDR3 (No real benefit).

This ASUS supports up to 140w on the CPU which is most likely where the new AM3 CPU's will slot in. It also supports both revisiions of the x6 core if you are inclined to upgrade.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131618
Teknoman said:
Radeon 4870. I was only leaning toward DDR3 before Brain stew was saying that you really wouldnt see that much of a difference between DDR3 and 2. So I figured I could take the cheap way out, get a decent quad core and motherboard, keeping my current ram and video card.

Probably would go with the Phenom II X4 in the end. Decided to go the cheap yet substantial upgrade route.
Click to expand...
DDR2 is fine.
Also get a x4 635 for $1 more.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103882
bucklam66 said:
This is a better deal than the Palit then (unless I care about DX 11)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125288
Click to expand...
Nice value if that rebate goes.
I'd nab the eVGA version because of the warranty.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130535
 
Hazaro said:
I wouldn't get that mobo as it doesn't support the 'old' 1055 or 1090 x6. It only supports the recently released 95w versions of those chips.

This ASUS supports up to 140w on the CPU which is most likely where the new AM3 CPU's will slot in. It also supports both revisiions of the x6 core if you are inclined to upgrade.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131618

DDR2 is fine.
Also get a x4 635 for $1 more.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103882
Click to expand...

Hmm with that i'd only pay about 150. Is the Athlon II X4 pretty close to the Phenom II X4 in performance for the most part?
 
Teknoman said:
Hmm with that i'd only pay about 150. Is the Athlon II X4 pretty close to the Phenom II X4 in performance for the most part?
Click to expand...
It's a good value for sure, but performance is less.
If want to buy this now and upgrade later that's fine.
If you want to buy a new (95w) 1055T and maybe upgrade later that's also fine.
 
XP 32-bit by the way. Thanks guys, will give it a go!

EDIT: I did give the catalyst provided at AMD a go. Installmanagerapp.exejust... operates in background and doesn't do jackshit! Fucking installmanagerapp.exe >:|
 
shagg_187 said:
XP 32-bit by the way. Thanks guys, will give it a go!

EDIT: I did give the catalyst provided at AMD a go. Installmanagerapp.exejust... operates in background and doesn't do jackshit! Fucking installmanagerapp.exe >:|
Click to expand...
Ctrl+alt+del and kill any process you think is related to the installer.
Or reboot if you haven't then try tunning them (easier).
 
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