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"I need a New PC!" 2012 Thread. Ivy, SSDs, and reading the OP. [Part 2]
- Thread starter Hazaro
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GHG
Member
Absolute rubbish. Going SLI actually eliminates any bandwidth problem that could exist with the 660's. I have 2 3GB 660's (non-Ti versions) in SLI and I get great performance in all situations. Downsampling with AA enabled, downsampling without, native res with highest AA settings. These cards steam through the lot while permorming about 30-40% better than a single GTX 680 would. Trust me, if you are set on going for the 660Ti go for the 3GB version.
Anybody who says the 660 line of cards are bandwidth limited has no experience of using them. http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/10/31/galaxy_geforce_gtx_660_ti_gc_3gb_sli_review/1
I can post my own benchmarks if need be.
You are getting the 3GB for the same price where all of the VRAM will be usable instead of just 1.5GB. If you are going for the 2GB version just because the factory overclock is a bit higher you are doing yourself a disservice as you can overclock these cards yourself with ease. Also if you are looking to SLI in the future its better to go for a blower cooler over a dual/triple fan cooling solution so that most of the hot air gets blasted out the back of your case rather than the 2 cards just recycling the same hot air that they are each giving off.
This guy gets it.
So much misinformation regarding the 660 series of cards floating around on forums its unreal.
Even a 128GB should handle Windows + a decent amount of games just fine. Unless you are into MMO's then the 256GB becomes more interesting. I have noticed that SSD's can act a little funky when you fill it really close to the limit(at least the samsung 830's do).I was thinking of an SSD plus a 1TB HDD, not two SS drives.
Thanks for the advice.
Pretty much all the high profile games, in what games i should have the most problems though?
Again I decided to upgrade my case, because the last one ( 600T ) was like the Cosmos II, really susceptible to vibrations from fans and HDDs. Picked up a Haf X after many recommendations despite not liking the design and I'm impressed - Quiet and good cooling.
Also wanted to try out the H100i instead of the H100, because I was still suffering from the infamous rattle when it got bumped despite using the voltage mod. I like it, with the Haf X I can also get 4 fans on ( 4 x Noctua ) and the temps are great.
My only problem is the extra cables on this one, plus the USB cable - Screws up the clean look
Also wanted to try out the H100i instead of the H100, because I was still suffering from the infamous rattle when it got bumped despite using the voltage mod. I like it, with the Haf X I can also get 4 fans on ( 4 x Noctua ) and the temps are great.
My only problem is the extra cables on this one, plus the USB cable - Screws up the clean look
blindrocket
Member
With some games requiring like 30 plus gigs of storage, I'm thinking it may actually be wiser to spend the extra coin on the 256. Hmph.
I would very much like it if you could post frame latency data concerning SLI 660s with progressively higher AA levels. The only website that seems to have decent info on this is Tom's, and it's only outmoded FPS metrics which would tend to hide memory bandwidth issues as it did with Radeon cards. Even then, it seems pretty clear there are issues.
I can definitely see a case being made for SLI helping alleviate this issue, but that also does open up its own can of worms in terms of usability. There's a lot of games out that don't have great SLI profiles, or need all sorts of workarounds. It's a great option for tinkers and enthusiasts, but it's not a great option for someone who might be new to this sort of thing or just wants a plug and play experience.
As far as coolers go, Kepler just sips power. The old standard advice of going with reference blower coolers for 2-way SLI doesn't hold as much water as it did with Fermi. You're essentially looking at needing to expel ~250-300W of heat, which is pretty in line with a single 570/580. No one would have told you to get a reference version of either of those. I think the reference coolers only begin to shine when you are talking about SLI in mATX or 3-way SLI in ATX. Even if the non-reference coolers start to lose some of their edge, it's hard to still make up for the fact that reference coolers create double the noise that the non-reference coolers make. On top of that, you want to try and stay below that magic 70C level before they begin to downclock.
Sleeve them? (and put the pic in a quote plzMy only problem is the extra cables on this one, plus the USB cable - Screws up the clean look
)
Dave_6
Member
Here's my updated build as of this morning: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/yASi
Haven't ordered anything yet. Also have no idea on a monitor, KB or mouse yet (leaning towards a Steelseries) and no idea on using a SSD or not. Again, this is all new to me yet I don't want something that will be 'outdated' in ~6 months.
Haven't ordered anything yet. Also have no idea on a monitor, KB or mouse yet (leaning towards a Steelseries) and no idea on using a SSD or not. Again, this is all new to me yet I don't want something that will be 'outdated' in ~6 months.
Looks good. We are going to be replacing the -V LK with the ASRock Z77 Extreme 4 in the OP, might want to take a look at it yourself. If you are really familiar with ASUS UEFI, that can certainly be enough to stick with them.
*edit*
Actually, I'd consider picking up an extra fan or two. The Shinobi's main issue is that it only comes with one rather anemic fan. It would probably even be fine with your build, but I think the added cost of two Arctic F12s or Spectre Pros ($8-10 each) is not a lot to add in if you've already added the 680.
If you want to save a bit, you could certainly go with the 670 over the 680. The $80-100 price difference isn't really represented by a similar amount of power with the 680. That being said, if you just want the best, then it is the best.
*edit*
Actually, I'd consider picking up an extra fan or two. The Shinobi's main issue is that it only comes with one rather anemic fan. It would probably even be fine with your build, but I think the added cost of two Arctic F12s or Spectre Pros ($8-10 each) is not a lot to add in if you've already added the 680.
If you want to save a bit, you could certainly go with the 670 over the 680. The $80-100 price difference isn't really represented by a similar amount of power with the 680. That being said, if you just want the best, then it is the best.
Sleeve them? (and put the pic in a quote plz
Sleeving doesn't make cables disappear, unfortunately.
Xdrive05
Member
Interesting that the 660 TI 2GB model seems to perform better than the 3GB version given the 1.5GB limitation discussed earlier... obviously Batman is not going over that 1.5gb mark, which would presumably tip the scales in favor of the 3GB model if it did.
The 1.5GB thing really sucks tho. I wasn't aware of that when I bought my 2GB model, and I read of bunch of reviews and benchmarks beforehand. I'll be flipping it when the 770/760TI hits at that $250-$300 sweet spot on sale.
The 1.5GB thing really sucks tho. I wasn't aware of that when I bought my 2GB model, and I read of bunch of reviews and benchmarks beforehand. I'll be flipping it when the 770/760TI hits at that $250-$300 sweet spot on sale.
It's makes them prettier to look at though!
Yeah, games are getting pretty ridiculous in size. Especially with next-gen around the corner. If you have the funds go for it. If things are tight however, I'm sure you can manage with a 128GB.
I personally have a 128 and a 256. So yeah, I prefer the extra space. I despise traditional HDD's(still have one for vids and such).
SneakyStephan
Banned
Both amd and nvidia keep finding more ridiculous shit to pull that you 'd never consider possible So they keep catching you off guard.
This is just the latest example
+vidyagamez jurnalism applies just as much to hardware journalism, most are nothing but PR outlets even the well known ones.
Why do you think APU benchmarks are always run at 1366x768
to deflect attention away from the horrendous bandwidth bottleneck
Why do you think driver updates are never accounted for in benchmarks for new cards when they compare them to older cards even when they compare them directly to their predecessors.
Why does a review of say a hd7750 always leave out equally well performing cards from 3 gens ago ? It always compares to other current gen cards never to something the consumer might actually be looking to replace.
because if you told the consumer that this shiney new 7750 is no faster than his 4 year old 4890 or gtx 460 he wants to replace then he won't throw his money away
I could go on for a while.
Your best bet when buying any new card is finding that exceptional website or reviewer who properly tests cards with latency figures, minimum framerates and updated driver benchmarks for the cards it is replacing. And do your research thoroughly so there aren't any surprises in build quality or design.
GHG
Member
I would very much like it if you could post frame latency data concerning SLI 660s with progressively higher AA levels. The only website that seems to have decent info on this is Tom's, and it's only outmoded FPS metrics which would tend to hide memory bandwidth issues as it did with Radeon cards. Even then, it seems pretty clear there are issues.
I can definitely see a case being made for SLI helping alleviate this issue, but that also does open up its own can of worms in terms of usability. There's a lot of games out that don't have great SLI profiles, or need all sorts of workarounds. It's a great option for tinkers and enthusiasts, but it's not a great option for someone who might be new to this sort of thing or just wants a plug and play experience.
As far as coolers go, Kepler just sips power. The old standard advice of going with reference blower coolers for 2-way SLI doesn't hold as much water as it did with Fermi. You're essentially looking at needing to expel ~250-300W of heat, which is pretty in line with a single 570/580. No one would have told you to get a reference version of either of those. I think the reference coolers only begin to shine when you are talking about SLI in mATX or 3-way SLI in ATX. Even if the non-reference coolers start to lose some of their edge, it's hard to still make up for the fact that reference coolers create double the noise that the non-reference coolers make. On top of that, you want to try and stay below that magic 70C level before they begin to downclock.
Sleeve them? (and put the pic in a quote plz
If I'm being honest I wouldn't even know where to begin with regards to testing frame latency! I've just replicated those benchmarks that Tom's did using the same settings however:
No AA @ 2560 x 1440:
4x MSAA @ 2560 x 1440:
Rest of my specs are an i5 3570k and 16GB Ram.
With regards to SLI profiles and the like I have had 0 problems with any game I've played so far. Nvidia seem to be very good with the profiles and getting them out quickly. I once had 4770's in crossfire a few years back and those lasted 1 week because of the amount of issues I had. If it comes to it, it wont kill me to have to wait a couple of weeks after a game launches to play using SLI.
With regards to blower vs multiple fan coolers, yes you are correct, its much less of an issue with the 6xx series of cards as they are cool and quiet in their own right. However, it is still worth bearing in mind if you plan on going SLI.
Iorv3th
Member
Depends on what you want installed on it really. But should remember that you are not going to fill that drive up and it doesn't come with a full 128 or 256 available.
Also be sure to use the over provisioning that is included with the samsung magician software. It sets an amount of the drive as unallocated space and uses this space for TRIM and other features. You don't have to do this, but highly recommend it. (This space should be 15-20% of the total drive space).
Remember to take that into consideration when buying it as well.
I have the 128 and all games etc installed on my 1TB HDD. Works fine for me, and you also have the ability to move your games back and forth as needed (most played on the SSD etc).
Games based in the hl2 engine, some multiplayer games, rts games. I would suggest a 6850/6870 but you might want to consider upgrading your CPU/mobo in the coming year or two.
doniewhalberg
Member
Not to be a smartass, but because I'm really just learning about these things, specifically by thread lurking here then going off and reading more elsewhere on stuff that you guys bring up that I don't know about: Are you saying then that you've had zero problems, or that sometimes you need to wait a couple of weeks for profiles to get sorted out? Because you write that there's been nada problems ever, but you throw that in there at the end, it reads a little like you have had those problems but you've came to accept them and are fine with it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it'd be nice to know what the genuine case is.
I'd decided in my mind to avoid SLI because I wouldn't want to put up with waiting and things like that. so it makes a difference if you're saying you've genuinely had none, or just that you son't clasdsify the problems as bothering you any more. Like I said, the question does seem a little antagonistic, but I'm just looking for what the answer really is, not to wind you up.
GHG
Member
No problem with asking!
So in summary: I've had these cards in SLI since just after Xmas (3 weeks or so) an have had no problems whatsoever with anything (SLI profiles or scaling or microstuttering) in everything I've tried so far. And I've tried a lot of games to be sure of this!
The reason I threw that in at the end is because as a multi-gpu user you have to accept that one day a game will release and it will not have an SLI profile on day one (I'm sure other SLI users will agree here). You may have to wait a few weeks for it. For me, this is fine as I very rarely buy games day one since my backlog is so huge and I can get the same game on sale with 30-50% off within a couple of months of it realeasing (by which time an SLI profile will likely be out anyway).
I will say however that if Crysis 3 doesn't have a profile ready for me on day 1 I will be pissed!
Cute Dragon Here
Member
Given: Computer system has to be able to capture 1920x1080 frames at 30 frames per second and 1280x720 frames at 60 frames per second in the M-JPEG format without skipping or sync issues. (It's a capture box.)
How weak can the CPU be before it causes issues? M-JPEG should be very light-weight. Obviously, this capture box needs its own case (and PSU), CPU, motherboard, RAM. (We have too many disk drives.)let's hope Intel Atom cuts it
The previous "HTPC" config got split off as it seemed like this will make things easier. For reference, the "HTPC" has to be able to handle video conversion tasks that rely on the CPU a lot, but some light gaming is to be expected. This one's going to need a CPU, motherboard and GPU if integrated graphics are too weak - and CPU + GPU TDP has to be less than 155.5W (we're still using that case anyway).
As always, try to keep within $300 - but now it's split between two systems, unless you feel like sacrificing relative portability for more performance on the second computer.
How weak can the CPU be before it causes issues? M-JPEG should be very light-weight. Obviously, this capture box needs its own case (and PSU), CPU, motherboard, RAM. (We have too many disk drives.)
The previous "HTPC" config got split off as it seemed like this will make things easier. For reference, the "HTPC" has to be able to handle video conversion tasks that rely on the CPU a lot, but some light gaming is to be expected. This one's going to need a CPU, motherboard and GPU if integrated graphics are too weak - and CPU + GPU TDP has to be less than 155.5W (we're still using that case anyway).
As always, try to keep within $300 - but now it's split between two systems, unless you feel like sacrificing relative portability for more performance on the second computer.
May have finally found myself a CPU, sitting at £50 with no bids and half an hour to go
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160956367840
Seems likely either that or buying this http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/...telceleronandpentiumdualcore/bx80623g870.html
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160956367840
Seems likely either that or buying this http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/...telceleronandpentiumdualcore/bx80623g870.html
memecomplex
Member
I don't own a 660 Ti, but I have worked on a buddy's 660 Ti SLI machine and I've found that his 2GB MSI Power Editions have consistently exhibited more hitches and hiccups in games like Skyrim and BF3 running at 1440p with 4x or more AA compared to my own machine running a GTX 690. Skyrim in particular runs particularly choppy on this machine (when looking around Riverwood). He's since upgraded to a 3770K and told me that the framerate in Skyrim is slightly improved but still hitches a fair bit, leading me to believe that there is some truth to the bandwidth limitation reports.
In any case, based on what I've seen, I'd choose a 670 over a 660 TI, especially if I were hardcore enough to go down the SLI route. But that said, I'm glad the 660 works out for you.
hl2 engine? you mean Source? for the others i couldn't care less i never play mp or rts
ss_lemonade
Member
I once had win 7, guild wars 2, 2 other games (Darksiders and another just to test) and a bunch of apps like Photoshop, Office etc I still had around 50+ gigs free.
Make sure to move your Users directory to the HDD as well.
memecomplex
Member
If SLI is borked or there is no SLI profile (e.g. what I'm experiencing right now with Warframe's Evolution Engine in DX11) you simply run it off one GPU like everyone else until the problem is solved or SLI profile added. In my experience, 90% of the time, SLI allows me to have a better gaming experience; that is gaming with higher frame rates at higher visual fidelity. The odd game here and there, like Metro 2033 has significant microstuttering in SLI at 1440p; which is alleviated somewhat by dropping down the resolution to 1080p.
GHG
Member
I'd be interested to know what his CPU was prior to upgrading to the i7? Random hitching in Skyrim and BF3 (multiplayer) would suggest a CPU bottleneck may be present. My CPU is overclocked to 4.6Ghz to minimise any possible CPU bottleneck.
With both of those games I've had no problems with hitching at all. Does he have mods installed on Skyrim? (having said that, I have mods installed on mine and have no problems...)
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/10/31/galaxy_geforce_gtx_660_ti_gc_3gb_sli_review/7 That was Hardocp's results in Skyrim and I think they also tested BF3 earlier in that review.
I would actually suggest your friend does some troubleshooting around his issues because if they are still present even after upgrading to an i7 it may suggest that there are underlying problems in other areas (such as drivers etc).
doniewhalberg
Member
Cheers, thanks for the feedback from everyone. I managed to upgrade my mITX aspirations to mATX, so SLI is on the table for the future now, so I've been curious. Certainly when I buy the system in March I'll be rocking the one 670 to begin with, but it's never too early to educate yourself on what you don't understand.
mere_immortal
Member
http://pcpartpicker.com/uk/p/yz9o
Thoughts? This will be my first build in just under 7 years so I wanted to make something pretty nice, the RAM may be overkill but after working with 2GB for that long I thought it would be good to splurge.
The only thing I'm a bit wary on is the WD Caviar Green, worth putting down a bit more for something better?
Thoughts? This will be my first build in just under 7 years so I wanted to make something pretty nice, the RAM may be overkill but after working with 2GB for that long I thought it would be good to splurge.
The only thing I'm a bit wary on is the WD Caviar Green, worth putting down a bit more for something better?
memecomplex
Member
Looks good to me. I would go with an i7 tho if the budget allows. And since you have a main SSD drive a Green should suffice (I went with Black).
So I just powered up my new rig today. Booted to BIOS no problem. Yay. I didn't tweak anything except some fan speed settings. Installed Win7 (Pro 64bit) no problem. Yay. Installed most of my drivers (network, video card, sound) no problem. Yay.
So then I started running Windows Update and got a nice BSOD with MACHINE_CHECK_EXCEPTION 9C error when Windows Update tried to install (download process went fine) one of the updates (I didn't notice which).
I used restore point to roll back to before I ran windows update. Now I am going back and doing one or two updates at a time to see if it happens again.
A quick pass at google indicated this may be bad RAM, but is that plausible considering how far I got before this happened?
So then I started running Windows Update and got a nice BSOD with MACHINE_CHECK_EXCEPTION 9C error when Windows Update tried to install (download process went fine) one of the updates (I didn't notice which).
I used restore point to roll back to before I ran windows update. Now I am going back and doing one or two updates at a time to see if it happens again.
A quick pass at google indicated this may be bad RAM, but is that plausible considering how far I got before this happened?
Boot with one stick at a time and see if you can figure out if it is bad ram and which stick.
Post your specs and where you live here
archnemesis
Member
I'm about to order the components below, but I have a few questions. Help is appreciated.
1. Is it worth going for 1866 or 2133 MHz memory instead of the 1600?
2. I already own a Windows 7 license. Is it worth upgrading to W8 for the increased SSD support?
Any other comments?
- Case: Fractal Design Define R4 Black Pearl
- CPU: Intel® LGA1155 Core i7-3770K
- CPU Heatsink/fan: Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo
- Motherboard: ASUS P8Z77-V, Socket-1155
- Memory: Kingston DDR3 HyperX 1600MHz 16GB KIT
- GPU: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 670 4GB PhysX CUDA
- SSD: Samsung 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256 256GB
- HDD: Western Digital Desktop Green 2TB
- DVD: OEM DVD±RW
- PSU: Corsair CX 600W
1. Is it worth going for 1866 or 2133 MHz memory instead of the 1600?
2. I already own a Windows 7 license. Is it worth upgrading to W8 for the increased SSD support?
Any other comments?
Another member pointed out to me Asus' support in the UK, so maybe take that into consideration.
This is typically what they're like for us in the UK
Difference in RMA speed is literally night and day.
1. Not really
2. Again, not really
Where are you from? What prices are you paying for stuff?
In that build I'd look to maybe change the RAM and PSU. Also, what are you using the PC for?
UK!
MSI GeForce GTX 580 Twin Frozr II/OC 1536MB GDDR5
Intel Core i5 2500K 3.30GHz (Sandy Bridge)
ASRock P67 Extreme4 Intel P67
Coolermaster Hyper 212
Fractal Design R3 Black pearl
OCZ ModXStream Pro 600w silent
Corsair XMS3 4GB (2x2GB) DDR3 PC3-12800C9 1600MHz Dual Channel
also have a Samsung 23" led monitor to go with it too
archnemesis
Member
I'm in Sweden so I'll be paying a bit more because of our high VAT. I'll mostly be using it for playing games and doing typical office stuff, but also image creation/editing, music production and possibly software development.
Are you able to get the Samsung 30nm RAM out with you? Also I'd look at a different PSU, the CX Corsair's aren't the best.
Umm... I'll just throw £500 out there at worst. 580s are still fetching over £150 on eBay, 2500Ks over £120 alone.
It's still a very potent machine.
I am thinking of jumping on this deal because I can't afford a Intel computer, I want to wait it out until the next set of chips but I lack funds and need a PC.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.1171049
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.1171049
It does compute well, so it is a Quadro. Not as good with rendering. The price point they would need to put it at in consumer cards is not enough for them to pull cards away from enterprise.
So, its here but it'll most likely never see a consumer release.
mere_immortal
Member
Ok that got me to switch the Asus 670 for an EVGA. Think I'll keep the mobo, the small change of an RMA doesn't put me off the performance and reviews it has.
Considered building yourself?
If you're going for an APU too I'd try to go Trinity as well as you're not stuck with a dead socket.
Here's a quick build I threw together http://pcpartpicker.com/p/yDtG
Get the Gigabyte windforce!
mere_immortal
Member
What's it like for sound?
The EVGA is a reference board, so it will run warmer and louder. I have ordered the gigabyte based on gafs recommendation saying its quieter and runs a lot cooler.
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