Not really sure why this is such a revelation, WASD has always been a fucking awful setup and its only chosen because its close to the left edge of the keyboard so your hand isnt activating like 20 keys when you rest it. Except the full length of the keyboard then pushes your mouse way the fuck away from you so you have to adopt this awful wide stance that throws your shoulder blades together
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I was getting depressed with PC gaming... Until C+M changed everything.
- Thread starter VlaudTheImpaler
- Start date
kinaesthete
Member
Interesting... Apparently you can connect Switch controllers to a PC via Bluetooth. Going to try this with a left joycon + mouse combo.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/how-to-connect-a-nintendo-switch-controller-to-a-pc/
https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/how-to-connect-a-nintendo-switch-controller-to-a-pc/
Patrick S.
Banned
Get a Bluetooth adapter and use a Wii Nunchuck! It works with the Dolphin emulator, should be the perfect.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
For those saying that it would be good for single player but not multi, why? I'm not trying to be cocky, but I'm failing to see how this wouldn't be a superior setup for FPS's other than preference and maybe being the reverse of me where you have played for the majority of your life on keyboard. I still think it's a superior solution in the end with less concessions.
Lack of buttons. You can easily access more than 20 keys with your left hand, but you probably don't you need that many for every game.
Pegasus Actual
Member
PS Move + mouse is a pretty common configuration on XIM (mouse on console). I've seen a few people now struggle to adapt to PC because of the keyboard portion. It's clear they never learned to type properly, which is too bad as it's a great skill to have and primes you for WASD. A thumbstick is OK for movement I guess but it's not a straight upgrade from a keyboard. In many games the keyboard wins because of the instant change of direction on strafes. I feel like part of the problem with the transition is that people have outsourced more of their aim onto the movement stick on gamepads as opposed to PC.
Also if you're playing with an MMO mouse for adequate buttons, in my opinion you are sacrificing some mouse aim accuracy from a lighter mouse in an FPS.
As for comfort/strain if you're getting pain you're just doing it wrong. Get your keyboard on an angle where your wrist is straight, get a decent wrist wrest, and if the keyboard is too wide go tenkeyless or shift your key mappings to the right.
Also if you're playing with an MMO mouse for adequate buttons, in my opinion you are sacrificing some mouse aim accuracy from a lighter mouse in an FPS.
As for comfort/strain if you're getting pain you're just doing it wrong. Get your keyboard on an angle where your wrist is straight, get a decent wrist wrest, and if the keyboard is too wide go tenkeyless or shift your key mappings to the right.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Yeah, but you make concessions by moving your fingers in awkward positions and away from critical keys. Plus, I am using a Razer Naga that has 12 side buttons. There are 8 buttons on the left side of my Elite controller and the only time I'd have to move any of them is to access the D pad which I would have to move my thumb for. So, that's 27 easily accessible buttons if you also count the ones on the top of the mouse, which you should.
To me, the benefits outweigh the negatives.
So far, no one has given an argument that I can understand.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I can type pretty well lol.
I started off with my keyboard at an angle so it's not that either.
My mouse is also so light to me that I feel like I'm going to break it. I do not have the stereotypical nerd body. I am also a fingerstyle guitar player so my fingers are pretty strong and versatile.
Are you really trying to say that WASD is capable of more granular and precise movement than a joystick?
EDIT: Ah crap, didn't mean to double post.
Pegasus Actual
Member
Well if you're such a strong strong man and a guitarist you should be able to appreciate that building proper technique is important, and if it's putting you in pain chances are it's your technique that's to blame, not your superior brain being too fast.
No, I'm saying WASD lets you change direction faster and that it's an advantage you're ignoring. And that the added granularity isn't as important as it is when you are playing on a gamepad as you don't need to compensate your aim with movement as much when playing on a mouse.
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
There have been multiple threads on GAF about this, so yes people are aware that it works and the other options that are out there.
It blows my mind that there is still not a made-for consumer device solution for this. I had a logitech g13 which worked ok, but the thumb placement for the analog and the analog itself are pretty bad. I feel like whoever comes out with a quality product designed specifically for this will make some big money.
It blows my mind that there is still not a made-for consumer device solution for this. I had a logitech g13 which worked ok, but the thumb placement for the analog and the analog itself are pretty bad. I feel like whoever comes out with a quality product designed specifically for this will make some big money.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Ah yes, the rarely seen Mongolian Style. Works in a few non-FPS games too.
You can, and I have! It's great. Highly recommended.Wonder if you could get one of these working on PC nicely.
Bet it'd be almost perfect for that kind of set up.
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
I can attest, analog stick in one hand and mouse in the other is the ideal way to play PC shooters. Keyboards suck.
Z..
Member
The move navigation controller is overall a better choice since it has several extra buttons and doesn't have an octagonal gate (which can be a nuisance in some cases).
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
No need for the condescension bro.
It absolutely is my brain being too fast. Every specialist I've seen has said so. I get pain when learning new guitar songs as well but not when playing ones I already know, especially when I push it. It's just that the comfort and familiarity of the controller helped to alleviate that pain when learning the mouse. It helps that I've been using a mouse on PC a whole lot more than the keyboard for browsing and such.
And to your point about technique. You can have all the technique in the world. But if you tried do play guitar on something that wasn't designed for playing guitar or poorly designed for it (like an electronic piano keyboard), you're only going to be so good at it because you can only push it so far vs something that was designed specifically for the task. The keyboard was not designed for movement in games on a 3d plane. Let alone to have buttons specifically ergonomically placed for gaming.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Yeah, I said on the other page that the new HTC knuckles controller looked optimal for this if it had a joystick, though I'll try the touchpad, since it technically has a button for your pinky as well.
Please let me know if it works! If you can get the touch to work then it means there would potentially be a way for the knuckles controller to work. At this point I would learn how to flipping code just to set it up.
haha, fuck.
Not every game will support this, beware. Some games switch between M+KB and controller mode based on which device you press buttons on. You might wanna get one of those keyboards with an analog:
This is what I'm using to play Overwatch right at this moment.
Yes, I use the thumbstick for movement and WASD for my abilities. It works for me.
That's the beauty of PC gaming: being able to play the way you want.
An alternative to this is the Steam Controller, since you can combine an analog stick or touchpad for movement with a touchpad/gyro for aiming.
You are giving up mouse aiming for it, but some people are more comfortable with a controller, or a controller suits some setups better when you aren't able to use a mouse comfortably.
Unfortunately not all games support simultaneous gamepad + mouse inputs very well, ranging from things like vibration turning off every time you touch the mouse or glyphs constantly switching back & forth, to pauses every time you send an input with one or the other device, or having a gamepad in use locking out mouse inputs entirely.
In recent years, I've noticed a lot more PC gamers that seem to dismiss complaints about games that don't have good input support.
I think it's mostly people that have switched to PC recently and just treat it as if it was a high-end console, using an Xbox controller for everything.
There have been quite a few games recently with poor mouse input handling, or limited/poor handling of mixed inputs.
The Logitech G13 has an actual analog stick, but I've heard it's not that comfortable due to its position, and the G13 design laying flat instead of angled.
I do like using a Razer Orbweaver with a mouse though, because it allows me to keep my arms a good distance apart so that they are straight forward, which is a lot more comfortable/ergonomic.
Before that, I would sometimes end up with bad shoulder pain after gaming for a while.
It's why I actually prefer KB&M to a controller most times.
An alternative to this is the Steam Controller, since you can combine an analog stick or touchpad for movement with a touchpad/gyro for aiming.
You are giving up mouse aiming for it, but some people are more comfortable with a controller, or a controller suits some setups better when you aren't able to use a mouse comfortably.
Unfortunately not all games support simultaneous gamepad + mouse inputs very well, ranging from things like vibration turning off every time you touch the mouse or glyphs constantly switching back & forth, to pauses every time you send an input with one or the other device, or having a gamepad in use locking out mouse inputs entirely.
In recent years, I've noticed a lot more PC gamers that seem to dismiss complaints about games that don't have good input support.
I think it's mostly people that have switched to PC recently and just treat it as if it was a high-end console, using an Xbox controller for everything.
There have been quite a few games recently with poor mouse input handling, or limited/poor handling of mixed inputs.
That's an a 8-way microswitched pad, not an analog stick. Great for quickly selecting weapons or similar functions, but not for movement.
The Logitech G13 has an actual analog stick, but I've heard it's not that comfortable due to its position, and the G13 design laying flat instead of angled.
I do like using a Razer Orbweaver with a mouse though, because it allows me to keep my arms a good distance apart so that they are straight forward, which is a lot more comfortable/ergonomic.
Before that, I would sometimes end up with bad shoulder pain after gaming for a while.
It's why I actually prefer KB&M to a controller most times.
I can agree with this. It's a similar reasoning as to using fightsticks. Try doing ut2k4 adrenaline commands on a keyboard and then switch to a joystick.
Andrew for those who don't know, it's not a perfect solutio, but you can use scp server + xpadder to get the ps3 navigation controller to work with almost any game.
Before it was patched I used x360ce when I played gta v. I used navigation+mouse while on foot, steering wheel+pedals when driving, and flightstick when flying. It was bliss. Having to take my hands off the wheel to shoot was actually more fun with the added (realistic) difficulty
I wish there was a dedicated PC peripheral like this with better ergonomics. People argue M&K, but I believe left hand of controller trumps WASD every time. Just feels so natural and an actual d-pad is better for other games (platformers and the like) than WASD. Where PC wins out is aim or camera rotation i.e. (M)ouse. So having an ergonomic 1 hand controller with a mouse would be an amazing hybrid and a market companies can capitalize in.Wonder if you could get one of these working on PC nicely.
Bet it'd be almost perfect for that kind of set up.
Edit: What I mean by dedicated is it works for everything as in it acts like a keyboard input. Like it's been stated if it inputs like a controller many games have a conflict with controls.
paragonpro
Banned
Haha i was about to ask if this was woolie speaking
Neither is better. A stick gives you more control over the exact direction of movement, and sometimes speed, but keys let you adjust positioning and change direction way faster.
For certain movements, especially in FPS, without question. Personally I don't even know how to bhop in something like Quake, but I highly doubt you could do it with a mouse/analog stick combo
Stutter stepping/jiggle peeking in CS:GO and Rainbow Six Siege would likely be less effective/doable on a stick.
TheCongressman1
Member
Wonder if you could get one of these working on PC nicely.
Bet it'd be almost perfect for that kind of set up.
I use this with a Logitech g502, and it's great when it works. Unfortunately it doesn't work with everything.
Overwatch works ok most of the time, but a couple of heroes completely break. Hanzo and Zenyatta are unplayable like this.
I've tried asking about mixed controller support on ther support forum, as have others, but Bliz isn't interested in fixing it apparently.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
I swear I was a few minutes from trying exactly this the other day. Very cool to hear that it works well, though I don't have nearly as many buttons on my mouse (only the two on the side).
My friend plays Overwatch exclusively with the PS move and Mouse. He does really well, doesn't like WASD movement being a predominantly console gamer.Wonder if you could get one of these working on PC nicely.
Bet it'd be almost perfect for that kind of set up.
PedroLumpy
Member
Yeah, I think most would consider joystick movement + mouse to be ideal, but generally it's just not worth the trouble. Your .... extremely adverse reaction is a bit concerning to be honest, but I'm just a random guy on the internet. Bottom line is that you're a bit of an outlier OP, so yeah C + M it up all you want.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
It persists because it works.
On a related note: I use a DS4 connected to my PC for any driving/piloting and sometimes for custom camera tools. KB+M for everything else. Perfection!
Soulblighter31
Banned
No, like a few others have said, posts which are strategically ignored, analogue movement doesnt trump keyboard controls. Like, at all. One thing people also ignore, mouse and keyboard arent separate entities, they work together as one in games, thats their strength. Analogue character movement whch is consistently thrown here has no purpose in 99.99 percent of games. Whats the point of analogue movement if games dont utilize it, if they dont take advantage of it ? It may feel better for console players, but thats about it. As its been pointed out, wsad (not wasd) gives you instant speed and directional change where a stick has dead zones. And wsad in combination with the mouse which is used for changing the camera serves the same granular adjustments as the stick does, but even better. And then you have all the keys around wsad for quick access and all the rest of the keys for more advanced functions in games, when on controllers stuff like contextual actions and wheels that pause the gameplay had to be invented because you dont have enough buttons so games have a limit to what they can have, gameplay wise.
MetalliCabombination
Member
As seen on tv?
Teknopathetic
Member
"Not really sure why this is such a revelation, WASD has always been a fucking awful setup and its only chosen because its close to the left edge of the keyboard so your hand isnt activating like 20 keys when you rest it. Except the full length of the keyboard then pushes your mouse way the fuck away from you so you have to adopt this awful wide stance that throws your shoulder blades together"
Use a smaller keyboard.
Use a smaller keyboard.
I'd love to play Gears of War 4 on my shiny new PC (6700k + 1080).
Too bad that, no matter what I do, attempting to download from the Windows Store crashes my PC. Tried all the fixes suggested online...still nothing. Wasted $30.
Does sound like the best of both worlds, OP.
Mouse is inarguably better than right joystick for aiming, but left joystick for movement (with paddles and triggers) is inarguably better than WASD.
Following OPs precedent, we're talking about action games.
If I'm playing strategy games, platformers or MOBAs, yeah, analog left hand is no use.
But in shooters and action games you absolutely need the extra degrees of movement on the left hand.
Mouse is inarguably better than right joystick for aiming, but left joystick for movement (with paddles and triggers) is inarguably better than WASD.
Following OPs precedent, we're talking about action games.
If I'm playing strategy games, platformers or MOBAs, yeah, analog left hand is no use.
But in shooters and action games you absolutely need the extra degrees of movement on the left hand.
Great post, Junior. PC gaming is a coloring book, you choose the colors.
Soulblighter31
Banned
In shooters and action games? You do realize keyboard and mouse offer infinitely more advanced movement possibilities than controllers right? I mean, you surely watched some high level unreal tournament or quake or tribes, right ?
To give you an example, since i feel you didnt get what im saying, Brothers A Tale of Two Sons is a game designed in a particular way that fully utillizes the strengths and options provided by a stick. Nearly every other game in existence DOES NOT. Wsad by itself gives you eight dirrections. By itself. In what game would you need that extra movement direction between 10 and a half o'clock and 12 o'clock ? Another point that i made which is ignored or not understood, you use the mouse for that very fine, very precise movement. You orient the camera with the mouse which gives you all the benefits that a stick does for movement direction.
Basically, most people are wrong in this topic becuse they split M/KB into two entities. Wsad is not worse than a stick for movement because no PC player uses just the wsad for movement. On a PC you move with wsad and mouse together. You can watch how a console player games with a pad, its almost exclusively the left stick and very aproximative, rare camera adjustments. On a M/KB setup, its reversed, the camera is used consistently, even for directional changes of the character - you dont press A if you want to go left, you move the mouse to that dirrection and you press forward.
Temeculan3000
Member
I beat Mechwarrior 2 and Descent keyboard only, no mouse, no joystick. And I liked it that way.
autoduelist
Member
But, as others have repeatedly mentioned, that comes at the cost of being able to quickly change direction. You don't need to move a stick from left to right across dead zones, you just can immediately press the other direction. This allows for many techniques in aforementioned games that just wouldn't work as well with a stick.
See how fast you can tap adadadadadadadadadad.... a proficient keyboard user can nail that much faster than someone can go left/right/left/right/etc on an analog stick with their thumb [or other finger, depending].