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[User 73706]

i dont judge but i find it very difficult to deal with the linguistics? how to call people without offending them, i guess calling them how they want to be called. but universally? i just wanted to say that, ive gotten into some trouble because of me not knowing how to address that.

Ask. Above all, always ask. If you don't know, just ask. They'll be a million times less upset if you just ask. If someone gets mad at you because you called them black, just apologize and say "what do you want me to call you?" If a transgender MTF individual is pre-op and gets upset with you for you calling them a male or some variation of the "he" pronoun, just ask "what do you go by?" It'll ultimately dissolve tension a hell of a lot faster than trying to figure it out broad-stroke or on a case-by-case basis without finding out how the individual feels.

I'm of the belief that racism/bigotry comes from seeing others as inhuman. Not wanting to date someone or even a group of people doesn't necessarily mean you consider them to be less than human.

That's not how it works at all. Racism is more equatable as "seeing other ethnicities or nationalities as less than another ethnicity or nationality." Racism deals with the human-invented cultural construct of race, not race as in species. Certain offenders may muddy the waters on that one a bit by calling "inferior races" things like "inhuman," but that's not what racism stems from at its core.

 

[Air]

Could anybody give me a general idea of where the thread is now? I've read posts about chromosomes and preference could slip into racism so I'm a bit lost. I would figure the key point for people saying they wouldn't date a transgender person is that they would be reminded of the fact that the person was once of a different sex- which could be a psychological problem for some.. I'm guessing that's been said already so I'm curious as to what the conversation has evolved to.

Oddly I find women that remind me of my mother physically, more attractive.

Whatever happens, gauging out your eyes and becoming a hobo is not the answer.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I wouldn't mind dating a transgender person, if I am really attracted to that person and vice versa.

Not quite so sure if I want to carry such a relationship to really serious stuff though, like marriage and such, because I want to have children of my own, if possible.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Oh deer.

Latina, light skin, dark hair, voluptuous. My favorite type.

 

[esms]

My girlfriend is trans, post-op.

If she never told you, you would never notice.

You know what? Since I know you have vast sexual experience, let me ask you this. Purely out of curiosity, I have no intention to offend.

Has any of the dudes she had sex with in your open relationship ever noticed or commented on the fact that she might be trans?

Again, pure curiosity.

 

[User 73706]

Tbh I wouldn't be able to date a transgender woman, I wouldn't be able to get over the fact that they used to have a dick.

...

Tbh I wouldn't be able to date a hacktivist, I wouldn't be able to get over the fact that they used to illegally download music.

Tbh I wouldn't be able to date someone who used to be a baby, I wouldn't be able to get over the fact that they used to shit themselves on a daily basis.

Tbh I wouldn't be able to date someone who found Jesus, I wouldn't be able to get over the fact that they weren't always a theist.

Tbh I wouldn't be able to date someone who started working out, I wouldn't be able to get over the fact that they weren't always up-to-date with diet and exercise habits.

Tbh I wouldn't be able to date someone who chose to become a vegan, I wouldn't be able to get over the fact that they ate meat at least once in their life.

People change, dude. Time goes on.

 

[THRILLH0]

My girlfriend is trans, post-op.

If she never told you, you would never notice.

Trans is not an adjective you bigot.

 

[Izuna]

Trans is not an adjective you bigot.

This thread is parodying itself now.

 

[Cream]

You know what? Since I know you have vast sexual experience, let me ask you this. Purely out of curiosity, I have no intention to offend.

Has any of the dudes she had sex with in your open relationship ever noticed or commented on the fact that she might be trans?

Again, pure curiosity.

Not once that I know of, ever. No one that did not know has ever commented on it to me, and my girlfriend has said that it has happened maybe twice, not from them, but from random strangers just asking.

She doesn't tell guys, for fear of violence. Sorry if that seems immoral and wrong to not say anything, but it is what it is.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

...
People change, dude. Time goes on.

But at the same time, is he still not allowed to have a preference? You're not wrong in anything you've said, but it comes down to something really simple - if you don't desire something, you don't desire it lol.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

Trans is not an adjective you bigot.

Um....I...

...I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Is this a Poe's Law thing?

 

[lexi]

Um....I...

...I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Is this a Poe's Law thing?

Look at the post history, always a clear indication.

 

[User 73706]

But at the same time, is he still not allowed to have a preference? You're not wrong in anything you've said, but it comes down to something really simple - if you don't desire something, you don't desire it lol.

If he can justify it, go for it. If he's got some deep psychological trauma stemming from dicks or something, that's fair play. The problem is that all these people are drive-by posting "I like / don't like [potentially offensive thing], that's just my opinion" without saying why that's their opinion. Even if you can't pinpoint exact, quantifiable stuff, you should at least be able to back it up with an anecdote or two.

 

[Tobe]

Can you clarify a bit and/or give an example? That issue be pretty simple to rectify.

as in how to call transgender people, gay and lesbians easy to name, but once it goes into transgender do i call them mtf fmt pre op post op(do people actually call them pre op post op?)? that kind of stuff, its also hard cause that subject is pretty much taboo here in peru, and to be honest i dont know many transgender people.

 

[23qwerty]

Um....I...

...I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Is this a Poe's Law thing?

Probably making fun of me and others bringing up the fact that saying "transgendered" makes you look like a moron.

 

[esms]

Not once that I know of, ever. No one that did not know has ever commented on it to me, and my girlfriend has said that it has happened maybe twice, not from them, but from random strangers just asking.

She doesn't tell guys, for fear of violence. Sorry if that seems immoral and wrong to not say anything, but it is what it is.

My opinion is tentatively changed then. I would date a post-op trans woman.

I don't consider it immoral or wrong not to tell people for one off sex. I find it disgusting that telling someone might result in violence.

Goddamnit GAF, why you always gotta make me change my opinions.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I don't see how this is contributing anything remotely resembling empathetic to the discussion if your entire standpoint is "so what if they're racist / sexist / [stuff]phobic?" We're at a point in this thread where the only people who are really being questioned re: accepting transgender individuals, but not being attracted to them for not being "real" women / men are the ones that don't clarify. Anyone who's made use of a justification as simple as "I want to have kids the red-blooded American way of one man, one woman and three trimesters" has been let off with a pass for the most part. It's the drive-by posters that go "I mean, I'm cool with them and all, but I would never date someone transgender. That's just how I feel" that are being questioned. Why do you feel that way? is what we're trying to get to the bottom of.

And with dating, there are a lot of things people probably can't figure out why they do what they do or think what they think. I guess my point is why does someone have to explain or justify their dating choices? What business is it of yours (or anyone's) to question why or why not they are attracted to someone?

I mean, have I ever sat down to make a list of reasons why I'm attracted to one gender over another? Can't say that I have. I think if I really stop to think about it, I really don't know specific concrete reasons why I prefer one gender over another. I mean... there are attractive males and females out there. Both are more than capable of providing sexual pleasure and a great time, memories, and relationships. So logically I should like both. I mean more chances of all of that and all. But I don't. And I really couldn't give you a list why.

It is a spectrum, seeing a group of people as inhuman monsters vs. seeing one group who is less than another group are both points on this spectrum.

That's true. But again, I'm not sure if I subscribe to that thought when it comes to sexual attraction and dating preferences. If the person has an issue establishing a basic working relationship with someone, then that's one thing. If they don't want to date someone, it doesn't mean the person they don't want to date is lesser of a person. Dating is subjective and irrational.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

as in how to call transgender people, gay and lesbians easy to name, but once it goes into transgender do i call them mtf fmt pre op post op(do people actually call them pre op post op?)? that kind of stuff, its also hard cause that subject is pretty much taboo here in peru, and to be honest i dont know many transgender people.

I...would stay away from "pre-op" or "post-op". In addition to reducing someone's label to, well, their genitals (which are really none of anyone's business), a lot of trans people don't ever opt for GRS for a variety of reasons (such as cost, medical risks, or simply a lack of desire).

"Trans woman" (for someone assigned male at birth who has transitioned or is in the process of transitioning to female) and "trans man" (for someone assigned female at birth who has transitioned or is in the process of transitioning to male) are generally the preferred terms. Or, y'know...better yet, "woman" or "man", unless their trans status is somehow directly pertinent to the conversation.

Obviously, when you start getting into people who identify as genderfluid and whatnot, it gets more complicated, in which case the best policy is simply to ask politely.

Look at the post history, always a clear indication.

Probably making fun of me and others bringing up the fact that saying "transgendered" makes you look like a moron.

Fair enough! I've just been in enough of these discussions that it sometimes becomes really hard to tell.

 

[Izuna]

Not once that I know of, ever. No one that did not know has ever commented on it to me, and my girlfriend has said that it has happened maybe twice, not from them, but from random strangers just asking.

She doesn't tell guys, for fear of violence. Sorry if that seems immoral and wrong to not say anything, but it is what it is.

Is this referring to before or after sex though? Because while I wouldn't be violent (and no one should ever be), I would be pretty damn annoyed if I was only told the fact, as if I wasn't told to increase the chances of me wanting to sleep with that person.

If before sex, then if people get violent then that's pretty damn horrible. I would hope the wanting to have sex with the person should filter whether or not they would be violent to her for being trans no?

 

[Cream]

My opinion is tentatively changed then. I would date a post-op trans woman.

I don't consider it immoral or wrong not to tell people for one off sex. I find it disgusting that telling someone might result in violence.

Goddamnit GAF, why you always gotta make me change my opinions.

Also, yeah, Empress is right. Let me rephrase. I shouldn't have said "post-op". She is fully transitioned, physically, surgery and all. This happened before I met her.

The reason she doesn't tell people for one-offs that is she had a very bad experience early on which resulted in a painful black eye.

Is this referring to before or after sex though? Because while I wouldn't be violent (and no one should ever be), I would be pretty damn annoyed if I was only told the fact, as if I wasn't told to increase the chances of me wanting to sleep with that person.

If before sex, then if people get violent then that's pretty damn horrible. I would hope the wanting to have sex with the person should filter whether or not they would be violent to her for being trans no?

Both. We don't really have anything more than one-night stands with people, so she doesn't see much reason to need to tell them.

And you'd be surprised how angry it can make people.

 

[Kraftwerk]

I am somewhat confused.

Why is everyone getting riled up? Why is it wrong to say that dating a transgender person is not someones preference? Why are people who are simply saying that getting piled on.

yeah, I know there has been some shit posting going on and some ignorant comments made, but they are not the same as the others I mentioned.

 

[Izuna]

Also, yeah, Empress is right. Let me rephrase. I shouldn't have said "post-op". She is fully transitioned, physically, surgery and all. This happened before I met her.

The reason she doesn't tell people for one-offs that is she had a very bad experience early on which resulted in a painful black eye.

Ahhh to be honest I don't know about one-offs as it isn't for me (I find the possibility of a relationship to be what gets me wanting to have sex), so I really can't comment on the morals of it as I am so far removed.

But that's a horrible thing to have happened.

 

[Fink]

Checking on this thread again and it was pretty vicious 2-3 pages ago.

It's gotta be hard to be trans and constantly be hearing these sort of things.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

That's not how it works at all. Racism is more equatable as "seeing other ethnicities or nationalities as less than another ethnicity or nationality." Racism deals with the human-invented cultural construct of race, not race as in species. Certain offenders may muddy the waters on that one a bit by calling "inferior races" things like "inhuman," but that's not what racism stems from at its core.

I think this is getting off into a bit of a tangent, but I see bigotry or prejudice more in line with what you are talking about. More the thoughts of the person.

While racism speaks more to the actions the person takes. Do they actively deny service, or impede the progress of another because of their views, etc. Does this person have a privileged position over another, etc.?

 

[genjiZERO]

...











People change, dude. Time goes on.

Chromosomes never change. A transgender can never change their genes. From a biological point of view an XX female and a transgender female will always have, at least, that fundamental difference.

 

[KmA]

Lol at all the people yelling "preference."

Preferences don't appear out of thin air. They are based on preconceived notions and ideas. Simply telling people that its your preference isn't a defense. There's an explanation behind it.

 

[Yrael]

I don't have the time to read through all 1200+ posts in the thread right now, but personally speaking, I wouldn't have any issue dating someone who is trans (I'm not attracted to people based on their genital configuration/past genital configuration).

On a related note, I like to read the web comic Questionable Content. I feel that the author, Jeph Jacques, has done a great job of writing a trans character, Claire. Does anyone else read this?

http://jephjacques.com
Http://Questionablecontent.net

 

[esms]

Also, yeah, Empress is right. Let me rephrase. I shouldn't have said "post-op". She is fully transitioned, physically, surgery and all. This happened before I met her.

The reason she doesn't tell people for one-offs that is she had a very bad experience early on which resulted in a painful black eye.

I don't want to say sorry for your experiences because that seems like it's a bit condescending.

All I can hope for is that society gets to a point where shit like this doesn't result in violence.

Much respect to you and your GF.

 

[Fink]

Is this referring to before or after sex though? Because while I wouldn't be violent (and no one should ever be), I would be pretty damn annoyed if I was only told the fact, as if I wasn't told to increase the chances of me wanting to sleep with that person.

If before sex, then if people get violent then that's pretty damn horrible. I would hope the wanting to have sex with the person should filter whether or not they would be violent to her for being trans no?

If you're a trans woman who doesn't have remnants of manhood then I don't see why you would need to disclose. It's not like it's an STD.

If someone had a boob job would they need to disclose that beforehand also?

 

[freenudemacusers]

Lol at all the people yelling "preference."

Preferences don't appear out of thin air. They are based on preconceived notions and ideas. Simply telling people that its your preference isn't a defense. There's an explanation behind it.

not sure why it would be necessary. nobody would second guess why a gay man is attracted to men, for example.

 

[User 73706]

And with dating, there are a lot of things people probably can't figure out why they do what they do or think what they think. I guess my point is why does someone have to explain or justify their dating choices? What business is it of yours (or anyone's) to question why or why not they are attracted to someone?

I mean, have I ever sat down to make a list of reasons why I'm attracted to one gender over another? Can't say that I have. I think if I really stop to think about it, I really don't know specific concrete reasons why I prefer one gender over another. I mean... there are attractive males and females out there. Both are more than capable of providing sexual pleasure and a great time, memories, and relationships. So logically I should like both. I mean more chances of all of that and all. But I don't. And I really couldn't give you a list why.

That's true. But again, I'm not sure if I subscribe to that thought when it comes to sexual attraction and dating preferences. If the person has an issue establishing a basic working relationship with someone, then that's one thing. If they don't want to date someone, it doesn't mean the person they don't want to date is lesser of a person. Dating is subjective and irrational.

I'm not asking you go bisexual, but this is kind of the note I was trying to get you to hit - a lot of times, people don't take precious time to stop and think about why they actually feel the way they do about certain things, which is what can ultimately feed concepts like prejudice and ignorance. It's not some expansive thing that requires a load of soul-searching and background music, but I mean, if someone asks you about it then give them the benefit of the doubt. Just take a minute or two and think. Try and figure out why you feel the way you do about certain things. It doesn't have to be a thesis paper or carefully thought out. All people are really asking for as a starting point is some kind of justification beyond "it's an opinion." Subjectivity is usually rooted in a form of tangible objectivity, generally personal experience. Just to drive this home, let's say I asked you why you liked fajitas. The immediate response is probably something to the effect of "they're good, dude!" If you were trying to convince someone to try fajitas, that really doesn't give them a lot to go off of. Treat opinions the same way. Just take a minute to feel out some perspective and analyze things. It could be the way the beef is seasoned, the lime rice, the texture, whatever. Even a single drop of self-awareness can ultimately go a long way in alleviating potentially negative discussions regarding subjective or opinion-fueled topics.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

Chromosomes never change. A transgender can never change their genes. From a biological point of view an XX female and a transgender female will always have, at least, that fundamental difference.

Transgender person, please. We're human beings, not some sort of rare, exotic organism.

As for the chromosome thing...I find that to be such a bizarre argument. Do people regularly ask for DNA tests prior to dating or sex? Does Match.com include a full genome workup section I was previously unaware of?

And, of course, that's ignoring the significant genetic variance within the human population regarding chromosomal makeup. As mentioned, a number of assigned-female-at-birth women have a Y chromosome.

Biological categories are often more "analog" than "digital", with lots of wiggle room and exceptions and "ehh...KINDA, but..."

EDIT:

On a related note, I like to read the web comic Questionable Content. I feel that the author, Jeph Jacques, has done a great job of writing a trans character, Claire. Does anyone else read this?

http://jephjacques.com
Http://Questionablecontent.net

I would say it's one of the better treatments of a trans character I've seen in anything approaching a "mainstream" piece of media.

(Yeah, a webcomic isn't exactly mainstream, but this also isn't a niche, LGBT-targeted thing, either.)

 

[Izuna]

Lol at all the people yelling "preference."

Preferences don't appear out of thin air. They are based on preconceived notions and ideas. Simply telling people that its your preference isn't a defense. There's an explanation behind it.

There are reasons behind preferences (I doubt you know the reasons for your own either), but they are still preferences.

People don't have to seek complete freedom and enlightenment such that they no longer have preferences. In a way that would be like having sweet without sour.

If you're a trans woman who doesn't have remnants of manhood then I don't see why you would need to disclose. It's not like it's an STD.

If someone had a boob job would they need to disclose that beforehand also?

I think the girl with a boob job would assume I don't care but if I found out they did before or even after being romantically involved I would have my reservations. If it was a necessary thing and not due to a "I wanted to feel/be more attractive" when I would learn to not care, but otherwise I wouldn't want to continue to be romantically involved.

IF I find out that even though my partner got pregnant and all of that, but in her past, herself and all of her family hid the fact that she was born a man so well, after the fact that I have asked too, it would bother me. I have gotten over worse things but it would bother me.

I'd would much rather be allowed to make up how I feel about something significant like if someone were trans or not before I allow myself any romantic attachment, because I know they knew, and they didn't tell me for the specific reason that it I may have not been okay.

But as I said, this will never be a situation possible for me, because I do a lot of talking about deciding to have sex with someone anyway. Mentioning I would like to be a Father is one of the things I have probably mentioned to all of my past girlfriends. So I shouldn't find myself in that situation anyway.

 

[Fink]

Chromosomes never change. A transgender can never change their genes. From a biological point of view an XX female and a transgender female will always have, at least, that fundamental difference.

"Sorry, your DNA turns me off."

 

[Sai-kun]

not sure why it would be necessary. nobody would second guess why a gay man is attracted to men, for example.

yeah but i would question a guy who says 'no black or asian, only white' on his grindr profile

 

[freenudemacusers]

yeah but i would question a guy who says 'no black or asian, only white' on his grindr profile

sure, but that's because actively broadcasting specifics in preferences is weird across the board. like having a queen of spades tattoo, or some yellow fever tshirt, etc, a 20-bullet list of what a perfect man should be, etc.

 

[Winterfang]

yeah but i would question a guy who says 'no black or asian, only white' on his grindr profile

But race and sexuality are different categories.

 

[Air]

Lol at all the people yelling "preference."

Preferences don't appear out of thin air. They are based on preconceived notions and ideas. Simply telling people that its your preference isn't a defense. There's an explanation behind it.

Well in these kinds of debates (I guess conversations would be a more apt word), saying preference is the easiest thing to do. Many can't verbalize why they're not attracted to someone in a polite manner or in well reasoned prose. A person doesn't need to divulge more information if they don't want to and for most general situations preference is a sufficient answer. If you want to get into a philosophical 'if there was no society than we would all be gender fluid' esque debate, than I would think you'd maybe be better off finding people whom are already open minded enough to want to be with you.

 

[Cream]

sure, but that's because actively broadcasting specifics in preferences is weird across the board. like having a queen of spades tattoo, or some yellow fever tshirt, etc, a 20-bullet list of what a perfect man should be, etc.

hey, don't diss queen of spades tattoos.

 

[FartOfWar]

Lol at all the people yelling "preference."

Preferences don't appear out of thin air. They are based on preconceived notions and ideas. Simply telling people that its your preference isn't a defense. There's an explanation behind it.

So homsexuality and transexuality are based on preconceived notions and ideas as you say?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

yeah but i would question a guy who says 'no black or asian, only white' on his grindr profile

if the guy was being a dick and potentially turn off potential partners, yeah he'd probably write that. Otherwise you just say 'Not interested' and move on when someone you don't like messages you.

 

[Izuna]

"Sorry, your DNA turns me off."

Well if they want kids, yeah.

Anything can turn someone on or off. I'd probably get turned off if someone had an opinion I disagreed with or had history.

 

[freenudemacusers]

hey, don't diss queen of spades tattoos.

true, they are pretty low-key and subtle in most instances

 

[MrCookiepants]

As a mostly gay, occasionally bisexual person, I would probably never date a trans person. I'm just generally turned off by any kind of physical alteration. Sorry if that offends anyone.

 

[User 73706]

So homsexuality and transexuality are based on preconceived notions and ideas as you say?

The constructs - nominations, qualifiers established by humans - of homosexuality and transgender identity are rooted in corporeal objectivity, yes. There were enough individuals diverging from the "norm" of hetereosexuality that a dichotomy needed to be established, and so on. The concepts - the notion of same-sex attraction or incorrect assignment of a biological gender at birth - of homosexuality and transgender identity simply are, just like any other concept. Those concepts aren't based on notions and ideas - they are the notions and ideas. You can't refute those by trying to dismantle something whose definitive machinations were already built.

Well in these kinds of debates, saying preference is the easiest thing to do. Many can't verbalize why they're not attracted to someone in a polite manner or in well reasoned prose. A person doesn't need to divulge more information if they don't want to and for most general situations preference is a sufficient answer. If you want to get into a philosophical 'if there was no society than we would all be gender fluid' esque debate, than I would think you'd maybe be better off finding people whom are already open minded enough to want to be with you.

Does this not justify transgender individuals not telling surface-level (i.e. dating) partners the gender they were born with? If everything going on for a simple one-night stand functions the same way a cisgender woman's equipment would, is there really any need for them to specify?

 

[Cream]

true, they are pretty low-key and subtle in most instances

If I was a girl, I would have the best Queen of Spades tattoo.

 

[Izuna]

As a mostly gay, occasionally bisexual person, I would probably never date a trans person. I'm just generally turned off by any kind of physical alteration. Sorry if that offends anyone.

I don't even like make-up either.

 

[Cream]

As a mostly gay, occasionally bisexual person, I would probably never date a trans person. I'm just generally turned off by any kind of physical alteration. Sorry if that offends anyone.

being transgender has NOTHING to do with body modification.

 

[notworksafe]

not sure why it would be necessary. nobody would second guess why a gay man is attracted to men, for example.

only a bigot wouldn't date women just because they are women

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I'm not asking you go bisexual, but this is kind of the note I was trying to get you to hit - a lot of times, people don't take precious time to stop and think about why they actually feel the way they do about certain things, which is what can ultimately feed concepts like prejudice and ignorance. It's not some expansive thing that requires a load of soul-searching and background music, but I mean, if someone asks you about it then give them the benefit of the doubt. Just take a minute or two and think. Try and figure out why you feel the way you do about certain things. It doesn't have to be a thesis paper or carefully thought out. All people are really asking for as a starting point is some kind of justification beyond "it's an opinion." Subjectivity is usually rooted in a form of tangible objectivity, generally personal experience. Just to drive this home, let's say I asked you why you liked fajitas. The immediate response is probably something to the effect of "they're good, dude!" If you were trying to convince someone to try fajitas, that really doesn't give them a lot to go off of. Treat opinions the same way. Just take a minute to feel out some perspective and analyze things. It could be the way the beef is seasoned, the lime rice, the texture, whatever. Even a single drop of self-awareness can ultimately go a long way in alleviating potentially negative discussions regarding subjective or opinion-fueled topics.

The immediate reaction would be why do I have to take the time to list out why I am or am not attracted to someone. You're not asking me to be bisexual, but you're basically asking me to justify why not.

And you're right on the fajitas. I'd immediately say they're good because that was basically the question. And if you asked me to convince you to eat them, then sure I'd go in depth as you described. My thing though, is when it comes to dating, I don't believe anyone has to justify anything they like to do or anyone they like to date. I'd basically never ask the question because well, it's not something I need to know.

And I'm comfortable enough with the thought that I know that would never morph into discrimination or other actions in which harms another in terms of the workplace, friendships, or other similar settings.