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[Izuna]

being transgender has NOTHING to do with body modification.

あれー？ What?

Okay I am going to pass this thread onto mobile mode so I can read posts in between a game of Halo.

I about twice as much in this thread alone as the assignment I have due Monday.

 

[Winterfang]

only a bigot wouldn't date women just because they are women

I know is a parody post but my head hurts.

 

[Izuna]

only a bigot wouldn't date women just because they are women

 

[Air]

Does this not justify transgender individuals not telling surface-level (i.e. dating) partners the gender they were born with? If everything going on for a simple one-night stand functions the same way a cisgender woman's equipment would, is there really any need for them to specify?

The context for that statement that you quoted was specifically in regard to voicing one's opinion/ putting it out in the open. Personally, if you want to have a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with someone, I think it would be in your best interest to divulge any controversial aspects about yourself. I think people have a right to know what kind of relationship they're getting into. I think it's more of a social contract sort of thing.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

As a mostly gay, occasionally bisexual person, I would probably never date a trans person. I'm just generally turned off by any kind of physical alteration. Sorry if that offends anyone.

So by "physical alteration", we're talking about...?

Cutting hair? Shaving? Those are pretty routine "physical alterations" people do all the time.

Oh, only permanent physical alteration? So...if the person in question had a birth defect that was surgically corrected at a young age, would that suddenly become a deal-breaker?

What if they've had laser hair removal or electrolysis?

What about surgery for, say, appendicitis? Tonsil or wisdom teeth removal? Orthodontic correction (such as braces)?

The context for that statement that you quoted was specifically in regard to voicing one's opinion/ putting it out in the open. Personally, if you want to have a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with someone, I think it would be in your best interest to divulge any controversial aspects about yourself. I think people have a right to know what kind of relationship they're getting into. I think it's more of a social contract sort of thing.

I'm not sure why it's contingent on the trans person to do that (especially with the risk of physical danger) instead of the other party to be up front and tell every prospective date "Sorry, I don't date trans people."

If they're worried about how people might judge them or react to that, well...that's pretty informative for this discussion on a number of levels, don't you think?

 

[23qwerty]

あれー？ What?

Okay I am going to pass this thread onto mobile mode so I can read posts in between a game of Halo.

I about twice as much in this thread alone as the assignment I have due Monday.

There are plenty of trans people who undergo no form of physical transition.

 

[John Kowalski]

only a bigot wouldn't date women just because they are women

 

[Cream]

So by "physical alteration", we're talking about...?

Cutting hair? Shaving? Those are pretty routine "physical alterations" people do all the time.

Oh, only permanent physical alteration? So...if the person in question had a birth defect that was surgically corrected at a young age, would that suddenly become a deal-breaker?

What if they've had laser hair removal or electrolysis?

What about surgery for, say, appendicitis? Tonsil or wisdom teeth removal? Orthodontic correction (such as braces)?

Getting tumors removed is a huge turn off for me.

 

[User 73706]

The immediate reaction would be why do I have to take the time to list out why I am or am not attracted to someone. You're not asking me to be bisexual, but you're basically asking me to justify why not.

And you're right on the fajitas. I'd immediately say they're good because that was basically the question. And if you asked me to convince you to eat them, then sure I'd go in depth as you described. My thing though, is when it comes to dating, I don't believe anyone has to justify anything they like to do or anyone they like to date. I'd basically never ask the question because well, it's not something I need to know.

And I'm comfortable enough with the thought that I know that would never morph into discrimination or other actions in which harms another in terms of the workplace, friendships, or other similar settings.

Right, and I get that's how you feel. Contextually speaking though, this thread was founded on the idea of discussions explaining why people feel the way they do about the idea. Outside of this thread I'm not going to try and police you for feeling that people don't need to explain their preferences, but the current tone and direction of the discussion that's being had revolves around the actual motivations behind the preference. That's what I'm trying to explain. "Convince me to eat them," basically.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

So what exactly is the endgame with this thread? Is there a particular conclusion people are trying to come to because, quite honestly, I've lost track of where this is going.

 

[Izuna]

There are plenty of trans people who undergo no form of physical transition.

Which does what to the discussion exactly?

Honestly I wouldn't even call that trans, as there is no transition. I'd just skip and call them a girl if they want to be.

But in relevance to who I quoted quoted what, he is clearly not interested in that.

Unless you really think our sexuality falls within only the social construct of gender.

 

[Winterfang]

The context for that statement that you quoted was specifically in regard to voicing one's opinion/ putting it out in the open. Personally, if you want to have a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with someone, I think it would be in your best interest to divulge any controversial aspects about yourself. I think people have a right to know what kind of relationship they're getting into. I think it's more of a social contract sort of thing.

Now I'm a straight guy so I'm not even going to pretend I know about this but if I'm correctly that puts the person in a tight spot. If you tell them you where born a man, you risk rejection (even violence ), but you also don't want someone that wants you because they have a fetish for trans people. So there's a high chance of ruining the relationship.

That's just me trying to understand the other side, personally I believe the sooner you tell them the better.

 

[23qwerty]

Which does what to the discussion exactly?

Honestly I wouldn't even call that trans, as there is no transition. I'd just skip and call them a girl if they want to be.

You said "what" in response to "being transgender has NOTHING to do with body modification."
I explained?

 

[Izuna]

You said "what" in response to "being transgender has NOTHING to do with body modification."
I explained?

No you didn't. You said there are transgender that don't. This doesn't mean, and of course in relevance to this thread, that is has nothing to do with body modification.

If a guy has overies that supply him with enough estrogen then it's really different. If anything it depends on what they would like to be called. A guy can look like a girl because of whatever condition and still want to be a guy.

 

[MrCookiepants]

So by "physical alteration", we're talking about...?

Cutting hair? Shaving? Those are pretty routine "physical alterations" people do all the time.

Oh, only permanent physical alteration? So...if the person in question had a birth defect that was surgically corrected at a young age, would that suddenly become a deal-breaker?

What if they've had laser hair removal or electrolysis?

What about surgery for, say, appendicitis? Tonsil or wisdom teeth removal? Orthodontic correction (such as braces)?



I'm not sure why it's contingent on the trans person to do that (especially with the risk of physical danger) instead of the other party to be up front and tell every prospective date "Sorry, I don't date trans people."

If they're worried about how people might judge them or react to that, well...that's pretty informative for this discussion on a number of levels, don't you think?

Well, as with anything there is a line to be drawn. If you had your teeth corrected by braces then that's fine. If you have breast implants (regardless of whether you were born a man or woman) that's unattractive to me.

 

[User 73706]

The context for that statement that you quoted was specifically in regard to voicing one's opinion/ putting it out in the open. Personally, if you want to have a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with someone, I think it would be in your best interest to divulge any controversial aspects about yourself. I think people have a right to know what kind of relationship they're getting into. I think it's more of a social contract sort of thing.

Right, but now we're getting into the nitty-gritty of semantics. If your partner's liberal and doesn't mind anything, what's an aspect of controversy? Social contract is also getting into unwritten rules and expectations, which is a completely different beast. If we're talking about airing things out, your specific standpoint can be just as easily countered by saying "the cisgender male didn't feel the need to put his cis history out in the open, so the transgender female didn't feel the need to put her trans history out in the open." Likewise, if the table is set in such a way that the transgender individual is absolutely obligated to reveal that they're transgender, isn't the other party just as obligated to reveal that they don't date transgender individuals?

Which does what to the discussion exactly?

Honestly I wouldn't even call that trans, as there is no transition. I'd just skip and call them a girl if they want to be.

But in relevance to who I quoted quoted what, he is clearly not interested in that.

Unless you really think our sexuality falls within only the social construct of gender.

That's where the lines start blurring. The problem is that it's entirely possible to be transgender without actually undergoing the transition - because gender is the identity, masculine, feminine, etc. while sex is the physicality, male, female. By that line of thinking, it's more accurate to call people whom undergo a physical transition "transsexual," because it pertains to the physical sex, but I digress that it's not an explicit binary because "transsexual" largely became associated with negative connotations the way the term "tranny" did. It's confusing, I know. But in terms of semantics, you don't actually need reassignment surgery to be transgender.

 

[Air]

I'm not sure why it's contingent on the trans person to do that (especially with the risk of physical danger) instead of the other party to be up front and tell every prospective date "Sorry, I don't date trans people."

Right, but now we're getting into the nitty-gritty of semantics. If your partner's liberal and doesn't mind anything, what's an aspect of controversy? Social contract is also getting into unwritten rules and expectations, which is a completely different beast. If we're talking about airing things out, your specific standpoint can be just as easily countered by saying "the cisgender male didn't feel the need to put his cis history out in the open, so the transgender female didn't feel the need to put her trans history out in the open." Likewise, if the table is set in such a way that the transgender individual is absolutely obligated to reveal that they're transgender, isn't the other party just as obligated to reveal that they don't date transgender individuals

This is fine. I think unfortunately it's going to be more of a burden for trans people because they're the ones with that information. For the person interested it could be presumputous to say out loud 'I don't date trans people'. That said, depending on how you weight the latter- it's probably not a big deal. But yeah, I think it's fair for someone to say they're not interested in trans as well. It's a contextual thing unfortunately.

If they're worried about how people might judge them or react to that, well...that's pretty informative for this discussion on a number of levels, don't you think?

Again, you can attempt to dive deeper in the psyche of a person who isn't attracted to something, but some people can't verbalize their thoughts well and you get a very low end level of discussion. If you can pry into people who are willing to discuss it that's perfectly fine, but that's icing on the cake, not the main course- so to speak.

 

[Fink]

Well if they want kids, yeah.

I don't really get this notion. This problem can't be solved with adoption? Why is it such a turn off for people?

 

[Winterfang]

So what exactly is the endgame with this thread? Is there a particular conclusion people are trying to come to because, quite honestly, I've lost track of where this is going.

Good question, I've read the OP multiple times and is very confusing. it mentions some articles and soccer and share bathrooms.

Edit:

I don't really get this notion. This problem can't be solved with adoption? Why is it such a turn off for people?

To be fair, adoption is highly costly, time consuming and giant emotional investment. A woman that cannot have children is a deal breaker for some people that want to start a family, regardless of if she was as born one or not.

 

[sploatee]

Transgender person, please. We're human beings, not some sort of rare, exotic organism.

As for the chromosome thing...I find that to be such a bizarre argument. Do people regularly ask for DNA tests prior to dating or sex? Does Match.com include a full genome workup section I was previously unaware of?

And, of course, that's ignoring the significant genetic variance within the human population regarding chromosomal makeup. As mentioned, a number of assigned-female-at-birth women have a Y chromosome.

Biological categories are often more "analog" than "digital", with lots of wiggle room and exceptions and "ehh...KINDA, but..."

EDIT:



I would say it's one of the better treatments of a trans character I've seen in anything approaching a "mainstream" piece of media.

(Yeah, a webcomic isn't exactly mainstream, but this also isn't a niche, LGBT-targeted thing, either.)

I'm really sorry for just coming back into this discussion (I was here on the first page, somewhere!) but can I just applaud you a thousand times. I am so, so sick of the misuse of the word "transgender". "A transgender" is like saying "a black" or "a gay". It sounds so dehumanising.

I look forward to the day when we don't even need to say "transgender people" and we can just say "people" and not give a flying fuck about all of this nonsense. I find it patently absurd that armchair gentilhommes can play "I can categorise and define strangers!" without actually you, know, fucking listening to what they have to say. It's just ridiculous. I said it earlier on in the thread, but as a woman it sounds to me like that typical blokey bullshit of assuming that just about every woman (trans or otherwise) desperately wants their dong and so they need to be extra-careful about whittling down their potential mating pool, you know, to avoid oversperming the world, or something.

I think it makes people sound ridiculous. I am saying this from experience, both of my own sexual history and of many others I know both in and out of the queer community, nothing is as fixed as you think it is. Whether you're a man, a woman, a fish, a bicycle or a pint of Guinness, the chemicals between us (terrible song) are unpredictable and every single bloody person has their own damn set.

I'm presupposing (and might end up getting an earful for this) that the majority of posters in this thread have a bit less life experience than a relatively old crone (at least in gaming terms) like me, but I just don't think life works in absolutes.

My own view: trans women are women, trans men are men and that's that. Use the bloody toilet if you need it. Just don't leave a stink. Have sex. Go out. Do things. And stop wondering what other people's chromosomes might look like.

/rant over.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Checking on this thread again and it was pretty vicious 2-3 pages ago.

It's gotta be hard to be trans and constantly be hearing these sort of things.

It can get very demoralizing and depressing listening to this kind of stuff everyday, not only from strangers, but even from friends and families. As much as I hate to say this, there's a reason the suicide rate of trans people is so ridiculously high.

 

[User 73706]

So what exactly is the endgame with this thread? Is there a particular conclusion people are trying to come to because, quite honestly, I've lost track of where this is going.

It's honestly in a completely different ballpark than the OP's intentions at this point, but there is no true "endgame." What we're in right now is the endgame - a lot of the posters that were flocking in and out of the thread are gone, and now all that are left are a handful of individuals having meaningful discussions with one another rather than it just being a dartboard for people to throw their opinions at. It's not really as black and white as you think it is. Center-left people with equality-based ideologies and some semblance of self-awareness aren't trying to "win" by converting as many people as possible and then hold a "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" afterparty when there's nothing to fight about anymore. People yield different personalities and opinions - at the most basic level, the intent of this specific discussion is to get people to look within themselves and see what objective footholds were established for them to reach their subjective stances. In particular, those rooted in objective happenstance in such a way that it comes across as ignorant or conveyed with a lack of clarity. The point is to get people comfortable with transgender politics, and - even if people still wouldn't be comfortable dating them or whatever - at least give them the knowledge necessary to form an actual, factual justification for it, rather than purely attempting to ground it because "it's an opinion."

 

[SacredBeing2020]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden.

A transgender person is always going to be w/e gender they were born into to me so no I wouldn't date one.

 

[esms]

It can get very demoralizing and depressing listening to this kind of stuff everyday, not only from strangers, but even from friends and families. As much as I hate to say this, there's a reason the suicide rate of trans people is so ridiculously high.

I can tell you honestly that I'm sorry for any insensitive shit I may have said in this thread. And I'm sorry for any of the shit that you may have to go through in your daily life because you're trans.

With that said, please don't hurt yourself. I know it's probably a statistical observation, but I'd hate to think my thoughts could hurt another individual.

 

[Winterfang]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden.

A transgender person is always going to be w/e gender they were born into to me so no I wouldn't date one.

They are really not, and the sex change isn't merely to look younger or more attractive. So while is a cosmetic change it has a bigger emotional impact, to finally see themselves in the mirror and not look at a stranger.

 

[HK-47]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden.

A transgender person is always going to be w/e gender they were born into to me so no I wouldn't date one.

Ohhhhh boy...

Its hard to go after some of the really suspect armchair psychology people are indulging in when stuff like this is posted

 

[Fink]

To be fair, adoption is highly costly, time consuming and giant emotional investment. A woman that cannot have children is a deal breaker for some people that want to start a family, regardless of if she was as born one or not.

Well any kid is gonna be costly, time consuming and a giant emotional investment.
And just the adoption process... well, a pregnancy isn't guaranteed to go through either.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

Again, you can attempt to dive deeper in the psyche of a person who isn't attracted to something, but some people can't verbalize their thoughts well and you get a very low end level of discussion. If you can pry into people who are willing to discuss it that's perfectly fine, but that's icing on the cake, not the main course- so to speak.

To be clear, my point with that line wasn't just to say that it's informative as to the individual in question's prejudices and motives (though I think it can be).

It's also informative because, well...if people are afraid that someone might think they're "rude" or "presumptuous" for broadcasting that info, imagine how trans people feel knowing that people might shun/attack/kill them for telling someone they're trans.

When I've brought up that idea to people before, a common reaction is, "But that's so unfair! Then people are judging me as a bigot or whatever before we've even started dating!" Which, in context, I can't help but find sort of bitterly funny.


...just so we're clear, I am NOT actually suggesting that people go around broadcasting that they're not into dating trans people. That is gross, and I really hope people don't do it. I'm simply trying to make a point.

I'm really sorry for just coming back into this discussion (I was here on the first page, somewhere!) but can I just applaud you a thousand times. I am so, so sick of the misuse of the word "transgender". "A transgender" is like saying "a black" or "a gay". It sounds so dehumanising.

Thanks! And thanks, in turn, for your comments. You'd kind of hope this stuff would be common sense by now, but...we're still getting there, I guess.

 

[mentallyinept]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden.

A transgender person is always going to be w/e gender they were born into to me so no I wouldn't date one.

Oh dear, I would step away from this thread quickly if I were you and do a bit of research. This will not end well if you keep this up.

 

[airmangataosenai]

"I don't believe people that claim to have depression, but I'm willing to go along humoring their delusions because I'm just that good of a person."

Or you can replace depression with anything that is certainly real and certainly affects you.

Amusing that you would (Unintentionally) equate transgenderism with a mental disorder in order to attack my view. Especially with the fact that we treat said disorders with medication and/or suppression. Of course it wasn't your intent, but that's how it came out.

 

[sploatee]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden.

A transgender person is always going to be w/e gender they were born into to me so no I wouldn't date one.

Equating the entirety of the transgender spectrum with cosmetic surgery in isolation, implying that "making the leap and going for the sex change" is equivalent to mental instability and potentially worthy of ridicule and ultimately implying that the entirety of the transgender experience is some kind of formulation of depression or mental instability. Blimey.

Dude, you just don't know what you're talking about, I'm afraid. And the fact you posted this presumably without reading the experiences of some of the trans women posting in this thread - (or even if you hadn't, and just shown blithe ignorance of the fact trans women might exist on GAF and be hurt by your incredibly insensitive comments) ... it's pretty low, to be honest.

I don't want to hector you because it doesn't help the discussion, but how much do you really know about the transgender spectrum? What do you know about Gender Identity Disorder? What about transition? What about brain sex? What about trans suicide rates? Non-Western conceptions of gender?

They used to say this thing about gay people and lesbians too. "I should be with a man and I want to be with a woman because I have a daddy fixation and think I'm a man".

You're on the wrong side of history, chuck.

 

[Winterfang]

Well any kid is gonna be costly, time consuming and a giant emotional investment.
And just the adoption process... well, a pregnancy isn't guaranteed to go through either.

is higher than 0%. Some couple go to extremes that turn their sexual act into a scienfically carefully procedure to higher their chances of pregnancy and even go as far as having a surrogate month just to ensure their kids will be truly theirs. It's a big deal breaker to a lot of people. You can't even adopt a old cat that's going to be put to sleep in a month without having a hard time getting approval.

 

[Union Carbine]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden...

A thousand facepalm.gifs are not enough for this post.

 

[Izuna]

I don't really get this notion. This problem can't be solved with adoption? Why is it such a turn off for people?

I think I should give my own reasoning since you say you really don't get the notion.

I am 50% White, part Jamaican, Chinese, Cuban and Greek. Growing up I didn't have people that looked like me other than my brothers. I couldn't be the subject of any racial slurs, but the reaction I get when I ask "where do you think I am from" is fun.

My nieces are beautifully mixed raced. As far as I know, they are from my half-sister so they are "part Jamaican, Chinese, Cuban and Greek" + 25% Ugandan, +50% White (including Irish I think). They have a brother who is the above except replacing White with Indian.

According to my mother if I went to Jamaica and saw my cousins they would be mixes of so many, including Japanese and whatever.

At some point in my life I didn't know all of this and really seeked to find my own indentity. I met my first other mixed-raced friend but his parents from completely different places. I loved Genetics back then in school as a subject and wanted to see how uniquely beautiful a child of mine would be.

I am fascinated by the idea of carrying on whatever trend my family tree set out with not really caring where someone is from and having very mixed children. It was so awesome to see my niece be born like no other baby I have seen any pictures of.

Growing up all of my brothers had very different personalities, despite us spending most of our time playing the same games. I know for a fact that race has nothing at all all to do with anything, and being surrounded by a mixed family made me realise that first hand.

Although I have spoken to mixed-raced people who grew up in Japan. As a curious teenager I read articles and even got to speak to a woman who actually relocated because she just felt like when she went to South America, she felt like she wasn't different anymore.

But feeling different isn't exclusive to being a minority. My girlfriend feels like she is a black sheep in her family and in Japan in general for being (average in UK) thick in comparison over there, that she was one of the few girls to have boobs in adolesence etc.

I am fascinated with the fact that being different is actually a damn good filter with finding out if people really are worth talking to or being friends with.

I'd like to see what a child of mine, my DNA would look like (recessive including) if mixed with something else.

So a trans woman, no matter how sexy as fuck, I wouldn't date because dating someone means I can't date someone else. I might miss the girl I could have babies with. So there you go. That's my reason.

TBH if someone said "because I want my own kid" that's all they need to say. I'm just proud of my own reasoning.

--

Seriously loading up Halo 2 now

 

[User 73706]

is higher than 0%. Some couple go to extremes that turn their sexual act into a scienfically carefully procedure to higher their chances of pregnancy and even go as far as having a surrogate month just to ensure their kids will be truly theirs. It's a big deal breaker to a lot of people. You can't even adopt a old cat that's going to be put to sleep in a month without having a hard time getting approval.

I get where you're coming from, but a lot of it is ultimately circumstantial parallel. You can't adopt unless you're viewed as properly equipped to raise a child; you can birth a child into this world at any level of economic standing, but on the flip side, you can birth a child into this world at any level of economic standing. It really just boils down to whether you want more penis or more paperwork.

There's also the "genetics" argument, but the whole bloodline thing is just as easily refuted given the fact that it's entirely possible to supply the surrogate with genetic material from both parents.

 

[Jarate]

As someone who is dating a MtF Transgender (and I absolutely despise using those terms because she is a female) The idea that you have to date X goes against our very nature. We generally develop our sexual likes and dislikes during our pre-pubescent phases and our early pubescent phases, and while this can be heavily influenced by our environment, we dont really have a choice over those things. In this regards, some people might not be sexually attracted to said persons due to a whole slew of things that he had absolutely no control over. Sexuality is incredibly important to any healthy relationship, including dating, and being sexually attracted to each other is usually the difference between being friends and dating.

If somebody doesnt find someone else to be sexually attractive that does nothing but show that he isnt sexually attracted, and at the same time, it's incredibly hard to describe our sexuality because we generally dont choose our quirks and our loves. I couldnt describe to you why I like titties, other then the fact that I like titties.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden.

A transgender person is always going to be w/e gender they were born into to me so no I wouldn't date one.

Protected?

Trans people are far from protected. It's so bad they have to hide it even within the gay and Lesbian community.

Hell so feminist hate my very existence because they feel I have no right to be as I am.

 

[Korten]

I don't really get this notion. This problem can't be solved with adoption? Why is it such a turn off for people?

Maybe because that person want's a child that shares their DNA? Something that's not just ideas to pass down? Is that so hard to understand, I mean Humanity has been doing that for the past hundred thousands of years. Not sure why it's starting to come into question now.

 

[Air]

To be clear, my point with that line wasn't just to say that it's informative as to the individual in question's prejudices and motives (though I think it can be).

It's also informative because, well...if people are afraid that someone might think they're "rude" or "presumptuous" for broadcasting that info, imagine how trans people feel knowing that people might shun/attack/kill them for telling someone they're trans.

Yes, I can empathize with that.

When I've brought up that idea to people before, a common reaction is, "But that's so unfair! Then people are judging me as a bigot or whatever before we've even started dating!" Which, in context, I can't help but find sort of bitterly funny

There's definitely a catch-22 situation here, and I understand that. Sometimes these situations don't have easy solutions or if they do- they're less than ideal. Really the only advice I could say is just play the field by ear, and be careful. I would say it'd probably be smarter to not pursue someone if you're not sure they'd accept who you are.

...just so we're clear, I am NOT actually suggesting that people go around broadcasting that they're not into dating trans people. That is gross, and I really hope people don't do it. I'm simply trying to make a point.

That's fine. Thank you for elaborating.

 

[Durask]

Let me put it this way.

Would we have, ahem, difficulties with regards to transgender persons and the society at large if one could use their genetic material to grow a body of the opposite sex and then transplant their brain into it?

I doubt it.

 

[Fink]

-snip-

TBH if someone said "because I want my own kid" that's all they need to say. I'm just proud of my own reasoning.

That's pretty awesome. Guess I'm not one to have much pride in my looks, the idea of passing them on to another person is not important to me.

 

[Winterfang]

I get where you're coming from, but a lot of it is ultimately circumstantial parallel. You can't adopt unless you're viewed as properly equipped to raise a child; you can birth a child into this world at any level of economic standing, but on the flip side, you can birth a child into this world at any level of economic standing. It really just boils down to whether you want more penis or more paperwork.

There's also the "genetics" argument, but the whole bloodline thing is just as easily refuted given the fact that it's entirely possible to supply the surrogate with genetic material from both parents.

I think you are really diminishing how hard is adopt someone. Some couples can't handle the stress and break up or divorce in the process. in this particular case you don't have a choice neither, is paperwork or no children. Which can be a legitimate deal breaker. That being said, this only affects someone that's interested in marriage and starting a family right away.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Here is what I don't understand. When celebrities go over board with plastic surgeries they are the brunt of jokes and mocked. (Sammy sosa, Micheal Jackson, Tera Reid etc) It even gets to the point some people will point out that these people are depressed or mentally unstable. Why can't the same be said for someone that decides to make the leap and go for the sex change? The link being they both are so dissatisfied with who they are they believe plastic surgery will change that. I'm not sure why transgender has become some protected class all of the sudden.

A transgender person is always going to be w/e gender they were born into to me so no I wouldn't date one.

I... can't...

 

[Herpes Reasons]

I don't really get this notion. This problem can't be solved with adoption? Why is it such a turn off for people?

Becaue perhaps people don't want to go through an adoption process? Perhaps people want to have their SO be pregnant with their genes? Perhaps people aren't attracted to someone who wasn't born with a womb and natural female parts? Seriously, the fact that so many in this thread are trying to demonize folks who aren't interested in being in a relationship with a trans person is crazy.

 

[FartOfWar]

The constructs - nominations, qualifiers established by humans - of homosexuality and transgender identity are rooted in corporeal objectivity, yes. There were enough individuals diverging from the "norm" of hetereosexuality that a dichotomy needed to be established, and so on. The concepts - the notion of same-sex attraction or incorrect assignment of a biological gender at birth - of homosexuality and transgender identity simply are, just like any other concept. Those concepts aren't based on notions and ideas - they are the notions and ideas. You can't refute those by trying to dismantle something whose definitive machinations were already built.

Do MK characters specialize in sophistry? You agree the concepts are grounded in objectivity which is all I suggested.

That said, I don't want to be associated with SacredBoing2020. I'm convinced the phenotype mismatch in trans people has a biological basis, refer to anyone as the gender they identify with etc.

 

[User 73706]

I think you are really diminishing how hard is adopt someone. Some couples can't handle the stress and break up or divorce in the process. in this particular case you don't have a choice neither, is paperwork or no children. Which can be a legitimate deal breaker. That being said, this only affects someone that's interested in marriage and starting a family right away.

Right, but they each have their trials and tribulations. A couple could just as easily separate during the pregnancy, and physical distress could severely hamper or even halt the baby's development in the womb entirely. I know what you mean, but I'm not trying to disagree with the difficulties of adoption so much as I am trying to illustrate similar challenges presented during pregnancy. You also have to consider that in a situation where someone's trying to have a kid, but they happen to miscarry or lose them more than one trimester into the pregnancy, it's probably going to be a while before they want to try again.

Maybe because that person want's a child that shares their DNA? Something that's not just ideas to pass down? Is that so hard to understand, I mean Humanity has been doing that for the past hundred thousands of years. Not sure why it's starting to come into question now.

Again, I don't know why people are glossing over this - you can easily have genetic material from both parents supplanted for use in the surrogate.

 

[collige]

So a trans woman, no matter how sexy as fuck, I wouldn't date because dating someone means I can't date someone else. I might miss the girl I could have babies with. So there you go. That's my reason.

TBH if someone said "because I want my own kid" that's all they need to say. I'm just proud of my own reasoning.

Surely you could have the romantic/sexual relationship with anyone and get a surrogate mother rather than adopting?

 

[rocketknight]

I just find it odd these type of people come out the woodwork whenever it comes topics like this. You never see this posted elsewhere on NeoGAF when talking about attraction.

Elsewhere on GAF it's all high-fives for finding women who can't conceive or excitement about some dude's vasectomy. How curious!

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Right, but they each have their trials and tribulations. A couple could just as easily separate during the pregnancy, and physical distress could severely hamper or even halt the baby's development in the womb entirely. I know what you mean, but I'm not trying to disagree with the difficulties of adoption so much as I am trying to illustrate similar challenges presented during pregnancy. You also have to consider that in a situation where someone's trying to have a kid, but they happen to miscarry or lose them more than one trimester into the pregnancy, it's probably going to be a while before they want to try again.



Again, I don't know why people are glossing over this - you can easily have genetic material from both parents supplanted for use in the surrogate.

No. The best time to try again is within 6 months. As someone who lost a child who was stillborn, we tried again within 6 months and became pregnant. And you want to pay someone thousands of dollars to become a surrogate? What if you don't have that type of money? What if you don't want to go through the process of finding someone?

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

As I read an article about lesbians being equivicated with being transgender when forming a women's team I've been pondering the contradictions some of us have regarding such people.

How is it my place to advocate to transgender sharing with women something as personal as a bathroom when I wouldn't date someone if I couldn't see them as the gender they know themselves to be?

I would think that it isn't. However, I do not think that transgender people should advocate for such things, either; there are obviously many important and specific biological differences between men and women that necessitate a separation of facilities, and while I would posit that a woman who had the unfortunate circumstance of being born with the body of a man and thus felt to need to go under the knife to reshape their body into an imperfect replica of their more desired form should indeed be allowed to use the woman's bathroom, I also maintain that after the transition has taken place, they should refrain from using the men's bathroom any longer. But to suggest that we should greatly inconvenience the great mass of people to slightly mitigate the awkwardness felt by a very small group of people by abolishing something as mundane and common place as the gender-separated public restroom is foolish.

Obviously there are big differences in each of these three scenarios but how can we function as a society with these types of contradictions?

We can function as a society in the same way we always have; the fact is, the incidence rate of transsexuality seems to be extremely low. Anecdotally, for instance, while I know several homosexual people and a few bisexuals, I not only do not know any transgendered people personally, I have also yet, to my knowledge at any rate, to have even so much as see one in my day-to-day life. For all practical purposes, such people do not even exist to me outside of mass media. The proverbial bathroom problem itself is also similar of no consequence to me; as a "cis-gendered" male of what room I use there is no doubt, and were I to witness an ambiguously gendered individual using the facilities I would honestly not care. The fact remains that such people constitute such an insignificant percentage of the population that what bathroom they use is of no consequence to the operation of the larger system.

In any case, the gender of another person is generally irrelevant to me anyway unless I am pursuing a more intimate relationship, which necessitates a woman. In other words, the day-to-day social interactions I have with other people are basically gender-neutral, and only in the realm of dating and sex does gender become relevant. In any case, I would not date a transgender person, as outside of the obligatory decorum of public speech I do not consider them to be of any particular gender at all. I will use whatever pronoun modern convention dictates, but on a subconscious, fundamental level I regard such people as mere minds trapped in a biological husk that modern science has not yet allowed them to fully escape; while they are certainly fellow humans in full possession of all the logical faculties necessary for platonic interpersonal interaction, such people simply do not register in my mind as having any sexual association to me.

I see such people, in more ways than one, as damaged goods. Even beyond my own extreme unease with surgical body modification in any capacity, the fact that most such people are a whirlwind of insecurity and sorrow that I'd rather not be involved with is a very large barrier to any intimate interactions, even of a merely emotional nature; my first impulse is generally empathy, but when the main reaction I see from transsexuals is that I, as a heteronormative, cis-gendered male, not only cannot but should not even try to understand them and that any expression of my honest, potentially offensive opinions is unwelcome -- indeed, one of you even threatened that a ban would result -- my next inclination is to simply disengage. Many of you worry about violence, anger, and aggression against you. I myself have never subscribed to such a view; my protocol for dealing with groups that perceive me as a member of an inherently hostile oppressor class that is expected to conform my behavior to their standards while being told I have no right to expect any concessions from them in kind is to cease interaction. Anger and hatred are terrible, but they are still a form of interaction. I embrace apathy; I leave such people to wither, bundled together yet exposed, in the apparently merciless and terrible gaze of a society that they assure me hates them. Any petty, emotional response I could make does not nearly compare to the cold indifference of their own isolated misery. For as small a group as the transgendered, this is trivially easy.

Not once that I know of, ever. No one that did not know has ever commented on it to me, and my girlfriend has said that it has happened maybe twice, not from them, but from random strangers just asking.

She doesn't tell guys, for fear of violence. Sorry if that seems immoral and wrong to not say anything, but it is what it is.

I would think that men willing to participate in an open relationship would forfeit any reasonable expectation of so-called conventional morality; it to me at any rate seems highly hypocritical that a person whose only relation to another largely consists of what orifice they stick their genitalia into should care about the quality of its destination. That she has notified you that she was born with an incorrect biology is something I would consider to be obligatory, however, as I would guess that you are if nothing else her statistically significant other amongst many casual couplings; I'm assuming of course that you are emotionally intimate as well as physically, but I am unsure how "open relationships" even work.

In any case, the fact remains that, as I do not engage in casual dating and the prevalence of transsexuality is so low, I do not, for all practical purposes, need to even consider this question, as in all likelihood their will never be a situation in my life where the need for such speculation arises.