Rigbizzle, is there no chance we'll see a powerful PS4 :-/?
IGN rumour: PS4 to have '2 GPUs' - one APU based + one discrete
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
Rigbizzle, is there no chance we'll see a powerful PS4 :-/?
jeff_rigby
Banned
I have no way of knowing. I'm getting criticized by kageMaru and maybe by brain_stew for my walls of text that they think lead no-where. From my point of view I am investigating possibles and citing what I find.
I think Backward compatibility is a must in the PS4 and even though people were insisting the rumors pointed to no BC I didn't think that possible. This kept me from accepting 100% X-86 for the PS4 with no SPUs to make BC possible. I'd found the BSC cite earlier and assumed BSC would be writing parts of the OS for a Cell2 PS4. Turns out they are probably writing parts of the PS4 OS but the Cell emulation part. Rumors generally have truths in them but we may get it wrong.
By the way the APU in the PS4 chipset eliminates the need for Cell and that settles that issue, no 4 SPU or Cell from a refreshed PS3 is going into the PS4.
DieH@rd seconds the possibility/hope of some 3D stacking getting into a PS4. Looking at the APU and GPU in the PS4 rumored chipset cries out for some custom work on a common memory pool and timing would allow for the possibility of 3D stacked memory as both a cheaper and faster alternative to GDDR5 which the APU can't use and the GPU must use. Since it looks like both Microsoft and Sony are using the same GPU they might co-operate in a redesign to use 3D stacked memory (Xbox next chipset name Oban = Japanese coin and the microsoft-sony domain name registration by Microsoft). I think both Sony and Microsoft want a killer next generation console but don't want to bankrupt themselves. If Sony and Microsoft are using the same CPU and GPUs then both will need emulation for BC....they can share the cost here also.
Powerful PS4.....right now people who know more than I are guessing 5X PS3 performance...with a common memory pool and 3D stacked memory you might get 40% more out of the chips which would be 7-8 times a PS3...who knows what else they can come up with, they might reach 10X the magic number.
I lol'd
And if this is true, I hope the 360 has a similar dual GPU set up. The PS3 suffered greatly in the multiplat area this gen because its architecture was so different from the 360's, don't want to see a repeat of that.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
I'm thinking there's more to the reasoning behind them going with AMD for the CPU & GPU than what the rumors are suggesting. I'm sure the higher ups at Sony can't be too pleased about IBM essentially building the 360 CPU off of R&D Sony was paying for. They also seem to be burned by NVidia with the GPU, although I'm not exactly sure of the details behind that.
bloodforge
Member
So I wonder if AMD suggested this kind of setup to both Sony and Microsoft with both having rumors of a dual GPU setup.
Be interesting to see if they both end up using a similar dual GPU setup.
Be interesting to see if they both end up using a similar dual GPU setup.
jeff_rigby
Banned
No, it's simulation not emulation....simulation does not have to be real time. We have just not put together that a Simulator developed for IBM by Barcelona Supercomputer Center before 2007 to allow developers to check their PS3 or Cell software on a PC that may not run real time in 2007 may run real time at PS3 Cell speeds in 2013 particularly if the original developer of the Cell simulator (BSC) reworks it to use an APU's 400 cores in addition to a X86 processor.
There will be no realtime Cell emulation in 2013. Most likely there will not be any in 2020 either.
To do it you at the very very least need 7 cores clocked at 3.2 Ghz or higher that can do the same operations per clock that an SPE can, and offer the terabytes/s of local store bandwidth available on Cell. Just. Not. Happening. It is generally not possible to use a large number of simpler, slower "cores" to emulate a single fast core in real time.
To do it you at the very very least need 7 cores clocked at 3.2 Ghz or higher that can do the same operations per clock that an SPE can, and offer the terabytes/s of local store bandwidth available on Cell. Just. Not. Happening. It is generally not possible to use a large number of simpler, slower "cores" to emulate a single fast core in real time.
No developers would use opengl, just like on ps3.
My bet would be something similar to libgcm as API for ps4 games..
brain_stew
Member
A 6670 isn't just low end, it could possibly be below contemporary Intel integrated graphics at launch. You don't need to go that pathetically low just to avoid problems with heat and power consumption.
brain_stew
Member
The PS3 had worse multi platform titles because it had a slower GPU with an antiquated architecture that was ill suited to modern game engines.
Sony won't make that same mistake again, which is why I wouldn't buy too much into this IGN rumour.
bigtroyjon
Member
Is it possible that this is just the introductory dev kit thrown together to get used to the set up and the actual one coming out later in the year will have increased specs for each of the cards?
So it's been reported than both Sony's and Microsoft's devkits have a GPU worse than the one in Wii U's devkit and ¿neoGAF is not on suicide watch?
Wow. I expected an angry mob with pitchforks and torches.
Wow. I expected an angry mob with pitchforks and torches.
MrBelmontvedere
Member
if these rumors are true, with apparently both PS4 and XBox 3 using antiquated (at the time of launch) PC hardware, I see little reason to not just cut out the middle-man and continue being a PC gamer.
nelsonroyale
Member
I would be in that angry mob....it would be shit if my laptop which I bought 2 and half years before the PS4 launches has a more powerful gpu....would mean I would wait to pick one up second hand, down the road when it hits sub £100
If the 720 and PS4 are underpowered I may just skip them and wait to get another, much more powerful laptop in 2014 or so
shinobi602
Member
Exclusives.
It's not the hardware that keeps me a PC gamer, it's the service (though hardware still weighs in heavily). I'll be looking at how or if they shake things up with XBLA and PSN. If they continue with their restrictive, bureaucratic walled gardens and paywalls then I'm out regardless of what's under the hood.
phosphor112
Banned
After a nights rest, I was thinking, even if they got simulation of the Cell, they'd still have to emulate the RSX... nVidia and AMD aren't quite the same.
alexandros
Banned
Meh. Not worth sacrificing the quality of 95% of your games in order to play 5% more.
BradleyLove
Member
Could these rumours simply not just be deliberate misinformation campaigns by Sony/MS to try and out the other off, so to speak? Release "low" specs and when PS4 (or 720) is massively more powerful than the other, job done.
Or is that a little naive of me?
Or is that a little naive of me?
Lets face it, the chances of BC being in the PS4 is close to zero.
If Sony used components like this, it would cost them $250 to manufacture, maybe even less. The thing is, these specs are just IGN's speculation and are nowhere close to what's actually gonna be in the PS4. At least I think so.
Well, what may be happening is that the devkits don't include a Cell because Sony is waiting to make another process/board complexity reduction on the PS3 and use that to include BC on the PS4.
However, the PS3 architecture doesn't lend itself well to BC, and if the PS4 is really using Llano or a similar APU, that is already a pretty tight chip design that I doubt it you can just plug a Cell in the middle of it and give it the bandwidth it needs to the memory.
While this is possible, it doesn't make sense to have such a slow GPU even if it's an early dev kit. A 7850/7870 GPU would make more sense IMO.
brain_stew
Member
Even if they stuck with Nvidia, getting conpatability with the low level RSX access in PS3 would be difficult enough.
gaming_noob
Member
R&D takes years. I think this theory is invalid.
Since everyone seems unhappy with these specs, let us know what would satisfy you? But be realistic, don't just take PC parts and throw it around and tell us how RAM is cheap.
Realistically, what are those specs? But take into consideration that they are probably going for APU design and that cheapest SKU could be 499 usd fall of next year.
Realistically, what are those specs? But take into consideration that they are probably going for APU design and that cheapest SKU could be 499 usd fall of next year.
APu by itself is more powerful than the rumor wiiu gpu.
Doesn't work like that in a console. All chips will be custom. Plus you code straight to the metal. This hardware would run crysis at 60+ fps
Who knows. We absolutely dont know how modified will that CPU and GPU be [or will they be there at all, im still hoping for 100W 77xx card], how much RAM will be present [2GB of GDDR5 will cost them ~100$], fancy peripherals, hard drive...
I know. But at the time of X360/PS3 release, they had hardware that was uber overpowered.
no disc drive, KB & Mouse or controller?
POWER7 CPU with 8 cores, each core being capable of 4-way SMT
HD7850 with 2GB VRAM
2GB XDR2 DRAM
Proelite
Member
POWER7 CPU with 8 cores, each core being capable of 4-way SMT
HD7850 with 2GB VRAM
2GB XDR2 DRAM
It did have to be a really stripped down version of power7.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I expect some of BC can be done by writing code that is API compatible with the PS3 rather than use emulation. The PS3 OS is locked down with standards that can be supported with other hardware, it's only game engines and game coding to the metal for SPUs that will need emulation. Most of the use for SPUs was to supplement the RSX and that could be emulated by the APU GPU.
Some thought to forward compatibility for the PS3 and PS4 must be in the standards published by Khronos; OpenGL, OpenMax IL and OpenCL. The PS3 was too early to support OpenCL but the other two should allow for easier PS3 backward compatibility on PS4.
Someone other than me should be discussing this. I'm comfortable that if Sony wants BC then BSC is the perfect partner to determine what's needed in hardware and to write the software to emulate Cell. The BSC Rumor does support this. The choice of an APU and a second GPU rather than a simpler to implement off the shelf CPU & single GPU then makes more sense, the APU (both CPU and GPU in the same package) to emulate a Cell.
from 2006 Sony GDC slideshow PSGL
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
random thoughts:
-BC will probably come via a companion device like their patent described. alternately it would be interesting to see if there's a way to just use an existing PS3. the APU could be assigned to assist with this instead of the main gpu.
-AFAIK the APU assisting the main gpu tech that AMD has works almost the exact same as their solution for video cards working along with the integrated gpu's on motherboards. i haven't heard anything good about the performance at all, and apparently it requires the gpu and integrated gpu to be very close in power, and in the same chip family. this makes me think that Sony isn't fling to have it work like this, and as others have said they will just let devs program the hardware directly instead of using dx11. so it won't matter anyway if there's a weird compatibility issue of they DO allow devs to use the APU with the gpu.
-but then again the APU could always be to keep the OS and multitasking things going smoothly, and won't even deal with games at all.
-could the 7670 and A8 just be placeholders on early kits so devs get used to the general architecture? then when the 'real' kits come they have an SI gpu with a more modern AMD cpu/apu. devs will have to tweak stuff, yes, but they will at least be familiar with AMD chips and the cpu/apu/gpu setup.
i think this is an early devkit so Sony can just give them something x86 to work with until final kits are ready. i think the rumors about SI gpus is more about what Sony expects to put in final ps4 units.
-BC will probably come via a companion device like their patent described. alternately it would be interesting to see if there's a way to just use an existing PS3. the APU could be assigned to assist with this instead of the main gpu.
-AFAIK the APU assisting the main gpu tech that AMD has works almost the exact same as their solution for video cards working along with the integrated gpu's on motherboards. i haven't heard anything good about the performance at all, and apparently it requires the gpu and integrated gpu to be very close in power, and in the same chip family. this makes me think that Sony isn't fling to have it work like this, and as others have said they will just let devs program the hardware directly instead of using dx11. so it won't matter anyway if there's a weird compatibility issue of they DO allow devs to use the APU with the gpu.
-but then again the APU could always be to keep the OS and multitasking things going smoothly, and won't even deal with games at all.
-could the 7670 and A8 just be placeholders on early kits so devs get used to the general architecture? then when the 'real' kits come they have an SI gpu with a more modern AMD cpu/apu. devs will have to tweak stuff, yes, but they will at least be familiar with AMD chips and the cpu/apu/gpu setup.
i think this is an early devkit so Sony can just give them something x86 to work with until final kits are ready. i think the rumors about SI gpus is more about what Sony expects to put in final ps4 units.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Oh man. So we get machine that's what... 2, maybe 3 times more powerful than the 7 year old previous console. Yay progress.
In light of that, rumored X720 5-6x faster than X360 doesn't sound so bad anymore, does it? And it would make sense if it has 2x6670, as that config with proper coding could potentially run Crysis 2 High at 60FPS, making the numbers match up.
a APU + GPU seem like a natural step after Cell + GPU
because Cell is a CPU that's also good at GPU tasks.
& if Cell was able to help a less powerful GPU put out the best looking games of this Generation I'm pretty sure the GPU in the APU can help the 7670 put out some amazing looking games.
& keep in mind that this is nothing like the same specs being in a PC because the devs can code for this set up & take advantage of having a GPU working close with the CPU in the APU.
because Cell is a CPU that's also good at GPU tasks.
& if Cell was able to help a less powerful GPU put out the best looking games of this Generation I'm pretty sure the GPU in the APU can help the 7670 put out some amazing looking games.
& keep in mind that this is nothing like the same specs being in a PC because the devs can code for this set up & take advantage of having a GPU working close with the CPU in the APU.
Devs would rather make the game "twice as good looking" than running 60 fps on consoles more often than not.
If this gen was an indication, ~8 year gen,I'd say 4k res is anything but a waste... If 4k isn't common by 2020 then I don't know what to think.