I'm getting kind of sick of lock-on dodge roll Souls/Souls-like combat

GigaBowser

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
I remember thinking it was kind of cool in Ocarina of Time, and then of course they expanded on it in Demon's and Dark Souls..... loved those games, but I dunno, I've played so many of these games with this combat system and many of them are good, some of the best in the industry even, but it's just been done so many times at this point. I wish Souls and Souls and Souls-like would start to expand and start to mix in some Dragon's Dogma style combat.

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In many souls type combat systems there is still some sort of soft lock on for people who don't like to use hard lock on.

Dragon dogma still had some sort of soft lock and the aim with ranged class was beyond generous if i remember well.

I personally like having a choice, never really super liked dogma system because many times it felt messy and the camera was a bit meh but it's a while since i played that game.
 
There are *literally* more games that release in a year that are high quality than you can play in that time frame. Very few of them use this mechanic. You need to learn how to expand your horizons and play other games.

Also you are wrong.
 
The_Mike said:
OP why don't just ignore these games if you don't enjoy the mechanics.


Go play some standard hack and slash so you can improve your expectations.
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There's not many good games these days. Souls-likes dominate what little market there is for action RPG's.
 
Personally I love it.

I welcome games trying something different (if it's good) but I have no issue with devs who decide sticking with the lock on mechanic
 
locked on combat has been the standard for 20 years because its intuitive, simple, and it works. If it's such a pain for you, try coming up with something better... assuming you can, i personally cant think of a system thats better 🤷‍♂️
 
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GigaBowser said:



Another insult and tag from my #1 fan Captain Toad Captain Toad because he doesn't agree with my opinion

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That's better for targeting multiple enemies but...
1. most of the enemies in that game are kind of fodder anyways, with souls and most RPGs enemies will wail on you.
2. the camera is messy and makes it hard to track incoming enemies who will beat the shit out of you, and judging by how there's a lot of enemies on screen youll probably get surprise attacked one way or another
3. Souls isn't just dodge and roll, souls has multiple playstyles and gameplay that they encourage thanks to the RPG balance and variety of combat. Most of what I saw in that video involves you just hacking an enemy to death with a sword or hammer or anything like that when Souls really isn't just that, unless you're playing Sekiro or some shit (and even then Sekiro encourages stealth in the areas where you can stealth, fighting isn't the only way around)

If you want more games like that consider playing Metal Gear Rising, Nier Automata or DMC because it's clear you don't want action RPGs but Hack and Slash games instead. Hack and Slash games are good but they're fast paced games for a fast paced audience. RPGs are not fast paced. case closed
 
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64bitmodels said:
That's better for targeting multiple enemies but...
1. most of the enemies in that game are kind of fodder anyways, with souls and most RPGs enemies will wail on you.
2. the camera is messy and makes it hard to track incoming enemies who will beat the shit out of you, and judging by how there's a lot of enemies on screen youll probably get surprise attacked one way or another
3. Souls isn't just dodge and roll, souls has multiple playstyles and gameplay that they encourage thanks to the RPG balance and variety of combat. Most of what I saw in that video involves you just hacking an enemy to death with a sword or hammer or anything like that when Souls really isn't just that, unless you're playing Sekiro or some shit (and even then Sekiro encourages stealth in the areas where you can stealth, fighting isn't the only way around)

If you want more games like that consider playing Metal Gear Rising, Nier Automata or DMC because it's clear you don't want action RPGs but Hack and Slash games instead. Hack and Slash games are good but they're fast paced games for a fast paced audience. RPGs are not fast paced. case closed
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I suggest you actually play Dragon's Dogma extensively. The combat feels incredible.
 
Actually OP Dragon's Dogma uses soft lock for most of it's melee combat, which essentially is just lock on but the camera doesn't center around one enemy, try to remember how using a shield works in that game, your character faces and locks on the nearest enemy that's soft lock right there.

Most games actually use Soft Lock instead of Lock-On/Hard Lock for their combat or a combination of the 2 systems, if you want Action RPG examples: Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy XV, Final Fantasy VII Remake, Tales of Arise, Witcher, Fable, etc. All use Soft Lock for the most part, why? because fighting multiple enemies becomes chaotic with only a Lock On system, this is why Ornstein and Smough are considered a hard boss in the first DS, Soft Lock alleviates those problems for the most part as your character can change targets much more easily, there are obviously much more mechanics in each game to make things even easier and make multiple enemy combat more enjoyable, but you get the idea.

If you want an Action RPG with neither Soft Lock or Hard Lock systems, Monster Hunter is the obvious choice here.

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The camera should let you lock on and rotate. Not sure why it hasn't done this yet. Kingdom hearts 2 and Nier automata have really good lock-on controls.
 
Just stick to more sophisticated games. I enjoy some of the From titles for what they are, but when you boil things down the combat in them is extremely simple. Games like Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon*, and Spider-Man (as just several examples) offer more layered, nuanced, and engaging combat (and gameplay in general) that makes full use of an arsenal of offensive and defensive mechanisms and strategies. From games basically follow a very simple formula of lock-on, dodge, block, and parry - and occasionally spells if one wants. Investing enough hours into a From game - leveling up your character in a very specific way, and finding very specific items and weapons - will add a bit more sophistication to gameplay but they're still dead-simple in comparison to virtually all other third person action RPG's. The only such game I can think of that even comes close to the simplicity of From games is GTA 5.

So in short the resolution to your dilemma is simple: stop playing From games and those that try to ape them! Anyone doing so would have a better time gaming anyway IMO.
 
SlimeGooGoo said:
Dragon's Dogma had better combat than any action RPG of the past 20 years.

Souls games are at their worst when there are multiple enemies at the same time, and giant enemies like in Elden Ring.
Dragon's Dogma is at its best when there are packs of enemies mixed with giant beasts that you can kick ass.
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Never played a DD game, which one should I start? Is the first one available?
 
Try ff7r. That's kinda neat.

Yakuza has an old school beatem up fighting and it's great.

Overall, I think I agree. Lock on dodge and strike is kinda feeling boring. Souls games do a great job of it but it's still so familiar. This might be part of why I prefer first person more often than not.
 
Only problem I have with Elden Ring's and souls combat in general is how the camera works when fighting huge ass enemies. From should implement some kind of dynamic zooming in and out for those fights.

Take the Fire Giant boss fight for example, very cool design yet I spent most of the fight just looking at his feet and praying, since I couldn't see his attacks winding up nor anything else, but feet.

Feedback when hitting an enemy could be a bit better too. It feels more satisfying in games like BOTW or Dragon's Dogma.

FUBARx89 said:
Wut? Dragons Dogma is ya standard hack an slash.
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God do I wish Dragon's Dogma was the standard.

It does so many things so well that it makes me wonder why it hasn't been copied to death like the souls games.
 
As much as I enjoy soulsborne games, the reliance on the rolling mechanic is getting really old. From Software has created a combat system that basically rewards people who are good at timing the roll rather than a combat system which has deep, engaging mechanics. Demon/Dark Souls had it's era with the i-frame roll, now it's time to move on. Elden Ring selling so many copies has me seriously worried that FS will have no incentive to overhaul the combat system, and we're going to be stuck with this continually escalating arms-race between rolling and AI tracking.

OP mentioned Dragon Dogma, a comparable Action RPG, and that's a great shoutout; go on Youtube and watch, it's more entertaining than Soulsborne games. Sure, the animation is dated these days but the combat is so much more engaging.
 
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I hate to say this, but this is actually a tried an true formula, every time when a new developer trying his new hot takes on melee combat, it usually ends up a total disaster.

For melee combat, you either go with crowd based melee or this lock and dodge based melee that you are getting tired off
 
cortadew said:
Never played a DD game, which one should I start? Is the first one available?
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Depends which platform you're on. You're looking for the Dark Arisen edition which is basically the definitive edition.

Here's PC:

It's also available on Xbox and Playstation. I'd recommend PC though, you have to play this in 60/120 fps to do it justice, which should be fairly easy with a modern mid-spec rig.
 
SlimeGooGoo said:
Dragon's Dogma had better combat than any action RPG of the past 20 years.

Souls games are at their worst when there are multiple enemies at the same time, and giant enemies like in Elden Ring.
Dragon's Dogma is at its best when there are packs of enemies mixed with giant beasts that you can kick ass.
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???

what exactly is the issue with multiple enemies or bigger enemies in Souls games?

that's when you don't use your lock-on and you'll be fine without it as well
 
Seems like not that long ago, when everyone was raving about the "free flow" combat in the Batman games and trying to copy it.

I do feel that "timing window" moves like dodge rolls and parry/counters have been overemphasized because of the influence of Souls. They are a game design trap because they "just feel good" to pull off, but the problem with them is that simplify things too much and the only way to raise the stakes it to make timing irregular and reduce timing windows to such razor-thin margins that a lot of players will be just excluded from game content.
 
01011001 said:
???

what exactly is the issue with multiple enemies or bigger enemies in Souls games?

that's when you don't use your lock-on and you'll be fine without it as well
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For me the issue in those cases is the camera, which is always fixed behind the player without taking into account what's happening around him.

Some dynamic zoomimg out would really help in those cases.
 
FUBARx89 said:
Wut? Dragons Dogma is ya standard hack an slash.
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I like my standard Hack'n Slash.



DDO expanded classes and had a more aggressive type of built-in lock-on system in some of the skills. I'd consider it more than standard Hack'n Slash because team play and character building takes a grand part of what makes DD an awesome Action-JRPG. I'll die on this hill and go so far as to say that High Scepter fulfilled my power fantasy needs quite well. This is what I wished Noctis from FFXV played like.

Edit: Yeah, they are reviving the Online game through a private server. It is still a little unstable and has features or missions missing but it works. I've played a lot of it thus past weekend.
 
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The dodge roll itself makes me cringe, from a martial arts perspective. In a real fight you sign away your life/your ass is grass if you try it.
The mechanic is a broken piece of shit and FROM in particular have painted themselves in a corner where the audience expect it. Imagine if they removed the i-frames? People would freak out.

But hey, pretend it's a game! That's why I put up with it.


 
I like sidestep in bloodborne 100x more than dodge roll dark souls . Wish they use the sidestep as a default roll in elden ring .

Well atleast you can mod it .
 
Challenging combat, no handholding combat plus no immune dodge-roll? Look no further than Kingdomcome: Deliverance

They talk to you wihile they kick your ass!
 
I feel like a good amount of Souls-likes are a bit too literal in their interpretation of the formula, so in that sense I kind of agree with you. I'm not at all exhausted by the style of combat though, at least in the case of FromSoftware games I think it lends itself well to the type of game they design. The limited amount of mechanical depth (light attack, heavy attack, roll, block, parry) combined with extremely dangerous and oppressive enemies works well to create an atmosphere of desperation in combat, where you're encouraged to rely on and abuse whatever tools you have. I think Nioh is a great example of being creative with the formula, adding extreme combat depth, giving it a more action/arcade feel. Even Sekiro largely ditched the dodge and build variability for a highly specific parry rhythm action game.

That being said, Dragon's Dogma is fucking awesome. We could do with Dogma-likes in addition to Souls-likes, maybe Dragon's Dogma 2 can do something about that.
 
GigaBowser said:
combat.

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LOL that dude played too many games.

It did work though... opponent didn't know what to do!

Anyways, I wish there would be something else than a fucking roll. It looks almost always ridiculous. I don't know why so many games use a roll and so few a swift side step.
 
It's a shame someone is constantly holding a gun to your dick, forcing you to play these games, otherwise you could just play something else.
 
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TintoConCasera said:
For me the issue in those cases is the camera, which is always fixed behind the player without taking into account what's happening around him.

Some dynamic zoomimg out would really help in those cases.
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in Souls games your attack and block buttons are on the shoukder buttons, meaning your right thumb can easily turn the camera while you are attacking.

so not really an issue imo
 
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