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[Septimus Prime]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20160708

After sniper fire struck 12 police officers at a rally in downtown Dallas, killing five, police cornered a single suspect in a parking garage. After a prolonged exchange of gunfire and a five-hour-long standoff, police made what experts say was an unprecedented decision: to send in a police robot, jury-rigged with a bomb.

"We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was," Dallas Police Chief David Brown told a news conference Friday. "Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger. The suspect is deceased as a result of detonating the bomb."

Dallas Police Officers Killed In Gun Attack: What We Know Friday
At a Friday evening press conference, Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings revealed that police used a common plastic explosive known as C4.

This, in fact, wasn't the first time a police robot was rigged to do something it wasn't originally designed to do — say, instead of defusing a bomb, to deliver a flash or smoke grenade to incapacitate a suspect, experts say. But it was apparently the first purposeful killing of a suspect using such a rig.

I don't know if this was posted in the big thread about Dallas, but I also am not sure if discussion about this belongs in that thread anyway.

I know that a lot of details are not available and probably won't ever be, but what I find really weird is that the article even says these robots have been used in the past to deliver non-lethal weaponry, like flashbangs and smoke bombs, but they still opted to kill the guy with C4. They do say that all other options would have put officers at risk, but would that still be true if the guy is incapacitated? And at what point is it okay to decide that it would be best to use a bomb-disarming robot to deliver what is essentially a precision drone strike?

 

["God's Beard!"]

And at what point is it okay to decide that it would be best to use a bomb-disarming robot to deliver what is essentially a precision drone strike?

Probably the same point you would send in a police sniper or swat team to kill someone.

 

[cpp_is_king]

I'm not sure why there is so much controversy over this. Dead is dead, what difference does it make if they shoot him in the head or blow him up?

 

[entremet]

Suspect wore body armor as FYI.

He killed 5 officers, wounded nearly a dozen.

He continued to shoot and never stood down despite 4 hours of engagement.

He bluffed that he had the ability to detonate remote explosives. A bluff the Dallas PD didn't take lightly obviously.

I'm fine with it.

If you're gonna escalate to that degree, you better expect an opposing force to do the same.

 

[rokkerkory]

Perfectly ok with this

 

[Fat4all]

I'm kinda wondering what it looks like.

In my head I'm picturing an RC car with a bomb taped to the back, but that can't be right.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

It's not like they decided to do it out of malice or vengeance. I'm sure most police don't want to be shot trying to stop a bad guy.

 

[ColdPizza]

I'm okay with it in this particular situation, or similar ones only.

 

[Media]

I think it was the best choice they had given the circumstances. Any other method would have put more people in harms way. He wanted to go out killing cops, they spent five hours trying to talk him down, and they refused to grant his wish.

 

[jabuseika]

"What is my purpose?

Oh..."

 

[riotous]

He was armed and armored.

The concept is concerning overall but if it's used as some crazy last resort I'm fine with it. I'm more concerned with the default SWAT behavior of bashing down doors and rushing a place armed when they don't have direct evidence of a threat.

As long as this is a last resort / definitely a dude ready to kill them scenario it's whatever to me.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

that sounds way fishy, is the police even allowed to do that. Seems quite the difficult environment to have a controlled explosion.

 

[Makai]

I'm kinda wondering what it looks like.

In my head I'm picturing an RC car with a bomb taped to the back, but that can't be right.

Probably more like a battlebot

 

[Cow Mengde]

I see nothing wrong with what the police did in this situation.

 

[Aurongel]

It's a creepy precedent for sure but after killing multiple cops, he was pretty much guaranteed to come in feet first.

I'll worry about law enforcement drones once they're used in lesser situations that aren't the same severity as a SWAT situation.

 

[cr0w]

A robot, a gun, the result is the same. I don't see the reason this is a big deal.

 

[akira28]

if people don't think there's something wrong with sending in basically a remote control toy with a bomb strapped to it, in to blow up a cornered criminal...*shrug*

 

[andythinkpad]

The robot they used, Marcbot, look a lot like Wall-E minus the cute eyes.

 

[Tarydax]

"What is my purpose?

Oh..."

"You explode."

"Oh my god."

 

[Huge Succeeded]

I'm kinda wondering what it looks like.

In my head I'm picturing an RC car with a bomb taped to the back, but that can't be right.

ya ever seen short-circuit?

 

[riotous]

ya ever seen short-circuit?

Johnny 5-0

 

[thebeeks]

I'm kinda wondering what it looks like.

In my head I'm picturing an RC car with a bomb taped to the back, but that can't be right.

 

[entremet]

if people don't think there's something wrong with sending in basically a remote control toy with a bomb strapped to it, in to blow up a cornered criminal...*shrug*

A criminal who killed 5 people, bluffed terroristic threats, wasn't surrendering despite various prolonged warnings and wore body armor.

The issue is much more complex that you're making it out to be.

 

[akira28]

A criminal who killed 5 people, bluffed terroristic threats, wasn't surrendering despite various prolonged warnings and wore body armor.

The issue is much more complex that you're making it out to be.

I don't think it really is if you stay focused.

 

[Fat4all]

ya ever seen short-circuit?

would of been an awkward ending if he blew up

 

[entremet]

I don't think it really is if you stay focused.

Would a sniper shot been better?

 

[Aurongel]

if people don't think there's something wrong with sending in basically a remote control toy with a bomb strapped to it, in to blow up a cornered criminal...*shrug*

Would you prefer it if they sent living, human beings into an open parking garage with a well trained killer? If they had the knowledge it wouldn't add to their (already high) death toll then I'm sure they would, but I don't think they have the psychic foresight many assume they do.

 

[old manatee]

I would rather the police didn't use robots with bombs to kill suspects. It will be used disproportionately against non-white people.

They are pulled over more, arrested more, tasered and beaten more, shot more, and the SWAT team is called in on them more.

It is very disturbing to me that so many people want to rubber stamp this when it seems clear who is actually going to end up being blown up by robots.

 

[HStallion]

I'm kinda wondering what it looks like.

In my head I'm picturing an RC car with a bomb taped to the back, but that can't be right.

 

[Lucky Forward]

"What is my purpose?

Oh..."

"You explode."

"Oh my god."

I can't find a link to verify it, but I heard a radio report today that the robot placed the explosive and then backed off out of harm's way before it was detonated.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

The concern people have is that it sets precedent for using explosives by law enforcement and not everyone trusts the police to have the wisest decision when using such a indiscriminate method going forward.

 

[Burt]

A robot, a gun, the result is the same. I don't see the reason this is a big deal.

Firing missiles into countries we aren't at war with used to be an incredibly big deal until it was normalized. You'll think this is a big deal when they send a robot into a house that has a shooter barricaded inside and they find pieces of baby in the rubble. And then someday after that, probably, most people won't think anything of it at all.

 

[Abounder]

They do say that all other options would have put officers at risk, but would that still be true if the guy is incapacitated? And at what point is it okay to decide that it would be best to use a bomb-disarming robot to deliver what is essentially a precision drone strike?

He had military training, non-lethal action presents its own risks and would only prolong the chaos/casualty count. Cop killers gotta go down ASAP.

 

[akira28]

Would you prefer it if they sent living, human beings into an open parking garage with a well trained killer? If they had the knowledge it wouldn't add to their death toll then I'm sure they would, but I don't think they have the psychic foresight many assume they do.

wait him out until fatigue forces him to make mistakes. No timer to beat. He wasn't going anywhere. I wouldn't send people charging in to collect him like some Rainbow six game if that's what you're asking.

all those hectic details in the air making everything seem much worse to the point where they say "we don't know what else to do but blow him up"...

Would a sniper shot been better?

maybe a relief team

 

[ColdPizza]

Btw, in before anyone invokes the memory of Asmiov in this thread.

 

[Krappadizzle]

Smart of them to do that than risk any more officers lives.

wait him out until fatigue forces him to make mistakes. No timer to beat. He wasn't going anywhere. I wouldn't send people charging in to collect him like some Rainbow six game if that's what you're asking.

all those hectic details in the air making everything seem much worse to the point where they say "we don't know what else to do but blow him up"...

Fuck that guy. He was a danger, proven by his actions. It's easy to be an armchair general when you're not in the situation itself.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Dead is dead. The thing that should be questioned in this situations is the need for deadly force, not the manner of it. I don't care if they kill him with a poisoned pizza.

 

[xkramz]

i think it was a lil over kill honestly. and no i cant really back up what i said.

the suspect did something really really bad. but

 

[Kenshin001]

The future of law enforcement.

 

[BronsonLee]

I'd say that it was an extremely abnormal situation, and I don't want to armchair dissect that decision

 

[ColdPizza]

Firing missiles into countries we aren't at war with used to be an incredibly big deal until it was normalized. You'll think this is a big deal when they send a robot into a house that has a shooter barricaded inside and they find pieces of baby in the rubble. And then someday after that, probably, most people won't.

I don't think this tactic will become the norm. It's pretty safe to say there were no babies in that parking garage.

 

[entremet]

wait him out until fatigue forces him to make mistakes. No timer to beat. He wasn't going anywhere. I wouldn't send people charging in to collect him like some Rainbow six game if that's what you're asking.

all those hectic details in the air making everything seem much worse to the point where they say "we don't know what else to do but blow him up"...



maybe a relief team

I think him bluffing that he was going to detonate remote bombs was what probably did him in.

Thankfully it was a bluff, but the police took him seriously.

 

[| Praxis |]

would of been an awkward ending if he blew up

I'm ok with this. Better than sending in a person or a dog.

 

[ColdPizza]

I think him bluffing that he was going to detonate remote bombs was what probably did him in.

Thankfully it was a bluff, but the police took him seriously.

Maybe, but I'm leaning more towards they didn't want to risk any more lives that day. Plus this guy was obviously well armed and trained.

 

[Futureman]

If it was a robot that was programmed to hunt down bad guys and kill them it would be different. Sounds like this was just some remote controlled thing. How is that fundamentally different than any other weapon the police use?

 

[entremet]

Maybe, but I'm leaning more towards they didn't want to risk any more lives that day. Plus this guy was obviously well armed and trained.

Kinda crazy how surgical he was.

I remember reading that most cops just don't have the time to practice their shot once full time.

LEO are notoriously bad shots because of this. Range time and ammo are limited.

 

[akira28]

I think him bluffing that he was going to detonate remote bombs was what probably did him in.

Thankfully it was a bluff, but the police took him seriously.

I think it boils down to they decided it was an acceptable avenue to take and that they didn't really need him alive.

Who knows what he would have said. It would have been powerful for him to be seen to face justice for all that he did, but not without its own risks. As a corpse its a lot easier to handle.

 

[SapientWolf]

The concern people have is that it sets precedent for using explosives by law enforcement and not everyone trusts the police to have the wisest decision when using such a indiscriminate method going forward.

Not the first time they've done it and it won't be the last either.

 

[Baroquemantic]

It's definitely something I didn't expect to have happen, but I don't have issue with it. If they decided that was the best way to prevent further loss of innocent life, then so be it.

--

God I just hate this whole week. So much fucking death.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I think it boils down to they decided it was an acceptable avenue to take and that they didn't really need him alive.

So what's the problem?