in this thread, we throw poop and call it art

lawblob said:
Why do Sony fans always say this? Why do so many people around here say that Sony "can't afford to cut price."? Where are you people getting this information? Do you have a mole at Sony HQ who tells you this stuff, or is this just speculative forum bullshitting? Have you personally seen Sony's projections of increased sales from a price decrease relative to revenue lost? If not, then how the hell do you KNOW that Sony can't afford to cut the price of the system?
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Dude, it's not just any Sony fan, that's Hans from *** ages. The guy simply can't be reasoned with. He's a shill.
 
Yazus said:
Start paying massive money for exclusivity of BIG GAMES. Who the fuck cares if you get exclusivity of games like Pony Games. Get exclusivity of JRPG.
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Ew, no. Put that money to some 1st party goodness.
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
In all seriousness, Sony isn't a company that gives up on a business sector easily, particularly one where they've demonstrated an ability to generate a lot of money. That they've taken a complete bath on the PS3 doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of money to be had in the video game industry and more often than not Sony has shown themselves to be fairly adept at grabbing a pretty big chunk of that money. That's the sort of thing that helps shareholders sleep well at night.

I think the only risk of Sony leaving the video game business is if Sony completely and utterly fails to exist as an ongoing concern, which is a ridiculously unlikely outcome in any reality.
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In a crisis- precisely because it is a crisis- you cannot predict future behavior on the basis of past behavior. Shareholders aren't sleeping well now, as things are. Sony may have reached a tipping point at which shareholder anger over looming future losses outweighs concerns over abandoning positions in various markets, leading them to demand the changes they would have previously opposed. That is the warning of this article in Business Times.

EDIT: I'm not claiming they will butcher the gaming division. I am speculating that sacred cows may start to look mighty tasty when Stringer proceeds with his reform process.
 
Yazus said:
Sony. Stop relasing SKU. Only one SKU:
40GB
One USB Port
WiFi
One Controller
No PS2 retrocompatibility
349$, 399$ with LBP Bundled
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Make that $249, $299. I think they need to cut more than $50. It's doubtful that they can though.

However, the PS3 was outselling the 360 this year in the US before the latest price cuts by MS. What was the difference before between the cheapest SKUs with hard drive, $50?
 
MrPing1000 said:
go on Sony, sell the games division to Nintendo.

Just for the lolz.
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What a tragedy.. Being stuck making waggle games. Worse fate than death for studios like ND/GG/PD/SM/TI I am sure.
 
Forsete said:
What a tragedy.. Being stuck making waggle games. Worse fate than death for studios like ND/GG/PD/SM/TI I am sure.
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By next gen everyone will be making waggle games anyway. Better make your peace with it now.
 
I think Sony will be alright, but I'd be a little more concerned about what they do next gen as far as gaming is concerned. They may be less inclined to pursue a business model where profits take longer to generate, and look at something like the Wii where the hardware isn't going to put you in the red instantly and gives you a greater chance of instant gains.

Edit:
Segata Sanshiro said:
By next gen everyone will be making waggle games anyway. Better make your peace with it now.
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In short...this :lol
 
Yazus said:
Sony. Stop relasing SKU. Only one SKU:
40GB
One USB Port
WiFi
One Controller
No PS2 retrocompatibility349$, 399$ with LBP Bundled
Click to expand...

Thats kinda what they already had with the 40gig, minus one usb port.

Theres not much you can take away from the system without it not being a PS3 anymore.
 
Segata: I've already made my peace, I'm bailing over to the PC side. Hopefully Sony will set its devs free to do the same.

Im sure thats where the talent will go anyway, no fun being stuck making Vic20 games. This could result in a big upswing for PC gaming, lots of tech gurus coming over.
 
arne said:
Here we go again.

I've stated this a million times in the MS threads and now it's gonna be in the Sony threads.

Losses are not cumulative in the way I am perceiving people here understanding it. The loss is only per fiscal year -- that's the running total and once a new fiscal year starts, the loss counter resets at $0. (for the purposes of our discussion in this thread) So, but this virtue, the division isn't "approaching $4bn in debt" for these purposes, they're only as much in debt as they are in the current fiscal year.

That being said, "cumulative losses" are important to look at with respect to trend and severity of that trend. If the losses are getting smaller as time goes on, well, being in the red isn't a good thing, but it is an encouraging trend and means the, as the losses decrease quarter per quarter, any particular division's exposure to major restructuring is far more minimal than to other divisions who aren't trending upward or who are flat, but in the red. REGARDLESS OF HOW WELL OR BADLY THEY HAVE DONE YOY for however long you're looking at.

That being said, global economies are looking pretty crappy now and companies will look at ways to streamline operations to minimize losses/maximize profits in the months/quarters ahead. That's the reality, because there will be generally less revenue overall, liquidity will be lower because share prices are down, etc. Not because any particular division of any company is "in debt" because that concept does not apply in the discussion we are having.

so to recap... if I'm reading the numbers earlier in this thread right, the gaming division is consistently losing LESS money each quarter than the quarter which proceeded it. this indicates that the gaming division will be looked in a more positive light than a division who is not trending upwards. but again, let me caution and reiterate the previous paragraph, that does not mean the gaming division would be immune to cost cutting procedures to get it into profitability quicker. in addition, profitability also seems a bit harder to reach than before given the current economic climate.
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Crisco said:
Seriously guys? You're going to throw down over a worst case scenario interpretation of an unsubstantiated rumor? Let me break it down for you: Playstation isn't going anywhere. It took 3 generations of losing consoles to put down Sega, who is a gnat in comparison to Sony. MS took a $6 billion bath on Xbox, and they aren't nearly as used to absorbing losses of that magnitude as Sony. Yet, Sony is going to cut off a brand that has been a decade long success story over 2 years of lagging sales? I know all the Nintendo fans and Sony haters are furiously masturbating over the idea, but it's never going to be anything more than a wet dream. Jesus christ you people are fucking insane.
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NintendoTogepi said:
You know, if the recession goes into an depression (which definitely could happen), I'd expect Sony (whole company), Microsoft (gaming division at least) AND possibly even Nintendo to go out of business. Let's hope that doesn't happen. (and if we go into a depression, who the hell cares about gaming for that matter?)
Click to expand...

And with that, lock this fucking thread already.
 
FirewalkR said:
Make that $249, $299. I think they need to cut more than $50. It's doubtful that they can though.

However, the PS3 was outselling the 360 this year in the US before the latest price cuts by MS. What was the difference before between the cheapest SKUs with hard drive, $50?
Click to expand...
Mostly true, but mainly due to special bumps that won't keep coming.

PS3 outsold 360 for Jan and Feb (most believe this was becaase Blu-Ray won the format war officially and PS3 was a great value Blu-Ray player at the time).

360 outsold PS3 in March and April. By a hair in April.

Then PS3 took over slightly again in May, and then had a large MGS4 bump in June, which also helped it edge over 360 in July.

August was back to 360 in front, which September, October and November far and away having 360 selling more than PS3.

Without the price drop, I think it would have been a more even Christmas, with 360 still in front, just not by as much.
 
Unfortunately, with the way the economy is its likely the ps3 might go the way of the Dream Cast. Maybe they should start releasing games early to sell more ps3s.. I'm look at you Killzone2.
 
Just because Sony's not going to get rid of the gaming division doesn't mean they aren't going to make ANY changes. I would guess no price drop and a slowdown in R&D spending on psp2, ps4, ps3slim and whatever else they have in the pipe will likely get the axe.

Also, Sony needs to force the GT5 team to just release the damn game already. They've probably spend tons of money bankrolling that games 8 year development cycle.
 
McLovin said:
Unfortunately, with the way the economy is its likely the ps3 might go the way of the Dream Cast. Maybe they should start releasing games early to sell more ps3s.. I'm look at you Killzone2.
Click to expand...

I like Doritos.
 
Zhuk said:
Sony's first party games division is far too large and puts out far too few system selling games. They need to cut the fat, sell studios and merge others. A good streamlining of their division would save them significant cashflow, and in a business where 3rd party titles are becoming ever more important I do not think it makes sense to have so many 1st party studios anymore.
Click to expand...

trim a little fat - good idea. lean 3rd party - bad. unless they can get a flow of 3rd party exclusives, sony getting all 3rd party-ish with the ps3 will reduce the need for ps3 to begin with.

as someone said earlier, i could see them rebooting the ps3 all together, perhaps to make it more like the 360 physically (inside), with a competitive price and most of its value lying in exclusive software. at the same time i can see them stripping the playstation name off these current machines and repackaging as some other type of media product

i mean, "drastic" is a strong word after all
 
If the Times sources are correct (even in light of Sony's denial, aka "at this time"), "sacred cow slayings" does not sound very nice at all.
 
Unite the Clans!

otake said:
One console future for the WIN.
Click to expand...
More like Two console future


oldergamer said:
Dude, it's not just any Sony fan, that's Hans from *** ages. The guy simply can't be reasoned with. He's a shill.
Click to expand...
Ugh, why won't they just perma-ban him and move on.
 
Yazus said:
Sony. Stop relasing SKU. Only one SKU:
40GB
One USB Port
WiFi
One Controller
No PS2 retrocompatibility
349$, 399$ with LBP Bundled
Click to expand...
Actually, I believe the reason they dropped the price was because the 80GB HDD is either $1 extra or about the same as a 40GB HDD in price now (after a while, small HDD sizes start to get expensive due to not being used much).

Anyway, I think SCE will be fine overall, but they'll just start making cuts/changes in various areas.
-I see SCEA San Diego getting downsized a bit, where they will no longer make an NBA game (just stick to baseball and PSN games). They'll evaluate all studios to see if some studios might be too staffed.
-For SCEE, I see them merging two studios or putting them all together (I'm talking about London, Cambridge, and Liverpool here). They may cut some stuff too after merging some studios (and just make less projects). Guerrilla might get downsized a bit since I wouldn't be surprised if they hired tons of extra staff to make Killzone 2 look impressive (and some staff might not be needed since the game is pretty much done. Talking about a lot of graphic staff).
-For SCEJ, I still see Team ICO being all right (they move slow, but I doubt they eat up a lot of finances). I would not be surprised if the GT5 project was forced to be downsize a bit to reduce costs (such as not make as many cars as the creator would want). They might have an internal restructure merging some teams and try to keep their studios more productive (since it doesn't seem like many internal games have come out). Clap Hanz might be forced to do less DLC (outside of costumes), but look more into pushing Golf, Tennis, etc. games.
 
FirewalkR said:
FTL :(
Click to expand...

why? naughty dog can still make games.

sony has great QA. Love to see what they could do with the 360 OS.
 
Sounds like it'll be important to pay attention to CES and see what Sony is showing. I doubt they'll talk much about projects they think are likely to get cut. It reminds me of Jeff Green saying how during the ZD bankruptcy protection meetings the suits kept talking about EGM, but never mentioned GFW which was writing on the wall.
 
Everyone in this thread thus far has been talking about the price of the PS3 and how they're still losing money at $399 (albeit much less than at launch), but where do accessories, digital downloads, etc come in? Yes, of course they're losing money on consoles, I always assumed that everyone was losing money on their consoles except for Nintendo, but that everyone offsets that loss with their accessory sales. Now with this gen, we have digital distribution of PSN titles, movie downloads, Qore subscriptions, even Home items being sold (from what they're saying, volumes have been high). Sony also has advertisers and publishers buying space in Home.

I'm just asking where are these figures at? Are they possibly impressing execs behind the scenes by being shown yes that losses are trending upwards, but that they're also making quite a bit of revenue in the digital space?
 
otake said:
One console future for the WIN.
Click to expand...
I've said this before, but unless that console is being run by Nintendo alone, it can never happen.
 
Forsete said:
Segata: I've already made my peace, I'm bailing over to the PC side. Hopefully Sony will set its devs free to do the same.

Im sure thats where the talent will go anyway, no fun being stuck making Vic20 games. This could result in a big upswing for PC gaming, lots of tech gurus coming over.
Click to expand...

Just wait till PC starts getting waggle.
 
iceatcs said:
Not for gaming world. If happens.
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The gaming world has drastically reduced the amount of relevant software for me, so I don't mind. Gaming is one of the most expensive and superfluous hobbies I still have despite the lack of creativity from software developers. :|
 
andycapps said:
Everyone in this thread thus far has been talking about the price of the PS3 and how they're still losing money at $399 (albeit much less than at launch), but where do accessories, digital downloads, etc come in? Yes, of course they're losing money on consoles, I always assumed that everyone was losing money on their consoles except for Nintendo, but that everyone offsets that loss with their accessory sales. Now with this gen, we have digital distribution of PSN titles, movie downloads, Qore subscriptions, even Home items being sold (from what they're saying, volumes have been high). Sony also has advertisers and publishers buying space in Home.

I'm just asking where are these figures at? Are they possibly impressing execs behind the scenes by being shown yes that losses are trending upwards, but that they're also making quite a bit of revenue in the digital space?
Click to expand...

Cool, now we can add "Secret PS3 profits" to "Secret PS3 game".

Actually, the interesting thing to know is exactly how bad the PS3 losses would really be if we could isolate them from the profits of continued PS2 sales.

Oh, and to answer your question, we actually only have guesses about the profit/loss of each PS3 sold. The one thing we do know is that Sony's gaming division as a whole is losing money. Thus there is no room for secret profits.
 
lowlylowlycook said:
Cool, now we can add "Secret PS3 profits" to "Secret PS3 game".

Actually, the interesting thing to know is exactly how bad the PS3 losses would really be if we could isolate them from the profits of continued PS2 sales.

Oh, and to answer your question, we actually only have guesses about the profit/loss of each PS3 sold. The one thing we do know is that Sony's gaming division as a whole is losing money. Thus there is no room for secret profits.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that at all... I'm saying that yes, there is reportedly a lower loss on the PS3 hardware at this time due to the most recent reports. I was just throwing it out there that Sony sells more than just consoles. There's software sales, accessories, digital distribution of PSN titles and movies, Qore subscriptions, Home purchases by users, and Home spaces being bought by publishers. Surely they're making some money off this stuff? I just always thought that most companies took a loss on the hardware to get it in your hands, and at that point, that's where they start making money from you in the form of software, accessories, etc.

Obviously the PS2 is still making quite a bit of money, and definitely the PSP is helping a lot at this point.
 
The Take Out Bandit said:
The world is fine.

It's our corporate overlords who are reaping what they've sown.
Click to expand...

The people that are taking the brunt of what's been sown is more like the people that work for the corporate overlords.

I.e. the average joe, you and me.
 
Wolves Evolve said:
...we cannot say that Sony's gaming division is 'in debt 4 billion dollars'. But is it correct to say that, over the given period, Sony's gaming division has lost 4 billion dollars, with the provisos you've given about the role of quarters in determining profitability?
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Yes. There is no "debt". The money was lost, and is written off, thus out of the books.

If shareholders see games as a bad business for Sony to be in, then thats the danger zone. So what we're really looking for are diagnostics of the current trend that would lead to specific cuts inside Sony gaming, rather than some apocalyptic end-of-Sony.
Click to expand...

These "diagnostics" will come at the end of this month, when the Q3 numbers will be released.

Unless Stringer has it in for the games division and needs to make his mark, in which case there's more danger.
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Stringer never had the free reign he expected/wanted/should have had. But he made clear, that he sees no holy cows but only profitability. If the Q3 and with it the whole financial year will look as bad as some analysts expect it to be, he´ll probably get it.
But don´t expect him to really axe anything. He would most probably try to make the company "leaner": spin out some divisions, streamline some others.
While its always hard for the employees, its high time for the company to go through this painfull process.
 
Crayon Shinchan said:
The people that are taking the brunt of what's been sown is more like the people that work for the corporate overlords.

I.e. the average joe, you and me.
Click to expand...

People lose jobs.

That's life.

It's the price we pay for allowing the worker to become expendable and have a less secure twilight.

Although I've always planned on having to work during "retirement". :lol
 
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