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[Snapshot King]

The last few months, but true, I very likely have missed a few things. The only thing I wanted to say with that is that one side of the coin has certain strengths, while the other side has DIFFERENT strengths.

And I am all for people not needing to care about whether a game is Indie or not. Unfortunately, most people do exactly that however, by dismissing Indie Games as "2d platforming shit" or whatever other reasonings I've come across.

If most people would actually consider big budget and Indie games as "equal", in giving both types of games an equal and fair chance, this topic wouldnt exist. People shouldn't really care wether or not a game is indie, but they do, and thats usually not in favor of the game.

You're kind of kneecapping yourself there. If no one cared if something was indie, many people would go "Why does this game looks so shitty and primitive, it's probably terrible" and go grab modern warbattles 5. For better or worse, the hipsters going NAW MAN ITS INDIE deflect that.

 

[Toma]

You're kind of kneecapping yourself there. If no one cared if something was indie, many people would go "Why does this game looks so shitty and primitive, it's probably terrible" and go grab modern warbattles 5. For better or worse, the hipsters going NAW MAN ITS INDIE deflect that.

Frozen Synapse and SpaceChems are great, great, great games that wouldnt have been made by any of the bigger studios. And there are many great games out there which people dont seem to notice or intentionally ignore "because they are Indie games".

I also think its an societal issue of how most gamers are lately being pressed into specific genre ideas that train them subconsciously onto very specific ideas of how a game should be played and what a game should be.

Btw, I didnt see that issue too much in previous generations, where I saw more people trying out wacky games like Mad Maesto, Godhand, Dojin the Giant and whatever else comes to mind.

Also: Go to bed

 

[beril]

The last few months, but true, I very likely have missed a few things. The only thing I wanted to say with that is that one side of the coin has certain strengths, while the other side has DIFFERENT strengths.

And I am all for people not needing to care about whether a game is Indie or not. Unfortunately, most people do exactly that however, by dismissing Indie Games as "2d platforming shit" or whatever other reasonings I've come across.

If most people would actually consider big budget and Indie games as "equal", in giving both types of games an equal and fair chance, this topic wouldnt exist. People shouldn't really care wether or not a game is indie, but they do, and thats usually not in favor of the game.

It's only by treating Indie games as a seperate entity that people can generalise it and think of everything as "2D platforming shit", and that's why threads like these aren't really helping. If they would stumple upon a game like Hawken (it has been called indie, not sure if it really fits) there is no way for them to think it's shitty 2D platformer.

Also wishing AAA games and indies to be considered equal is silly. A game with 1000s of man months behind it is not equal to a game by 1-2 people. Of course every game doesn't need a big budget and small games can be as fun, or more fun than big bloated flashy AAA games, but not equal.

 

[Toma]

It's only by treating Indie games as a seperate entity that people can generalise it and think of everything as "2D platforming shit", and that's why threads like these aren't really helping. If they would stumple upon a game like Hawken (it has been called indie, not sure if it really fits) there is no way for them to think it's shitty 2D platformer.

Also wishing AAA games and indies to be considered equal is silly. A game with 1000s of man months behind it is not equal to a game by 1-2 people. Of course every game doesn't need a big budget and small games can be as fun, or more fun than big bloated flashy AAA games, but not equal.

If a very thoughtful 2D game, focussing on an aspect rarely touched upon in videogames by a single person is more fun and worthwhile than a bloated, flashy, but ultimately completely irrelevant game (lets say Army of Two), then why shouldnt the enjoyment of these games be considered equal? Why does the team size and graphical prowess have anything to do with how "equal" the enjoyment of these games could be?

There are different reasons to enjoy one game over the other, but no possible reason is "superior", ideally making them equal choices.

 

[Newblade]

Where are the indie fighters not named Divekick or Skullgirls, which aren't chinese knockoffs or made for pedophiles? Where's a single indie character action game that isn't terrible?

Go play Noitu Love 2.

 

[redcrayon]

And I am all for people not needing to care about whether a game is Indie or not. Unfortunately, most people do exactly that however, by dismissing Indie Games as "2d platforming shit" or whatever other reasonings I've come across.

I don't think most people do that at all. How are you defining 'most'? Based on a couple of people in this thread, or based on people who haven't posted in your other indie thread and you are now imagining their reasons why? Sales figures dictate that well over 99% of the fan base of any AAA game you care to mention all haven't posted in an indie thread (or any other thread for that matter) on gaf, so we don't know what they think about indie games. Anecdotes aren't evidence, and assigning arbitrary opinions to people isn't very fair.

If by 'most' you mean 'most people who have posted in this thread', I still don't think the numbers add up to a majority that dismiss indie stuff out of hand. If by 'most' you mean 'people who post on gaf in general', there is just no requirement for everyone to register their interest in every game or topic here- I love Zelda and Mario Kart but virtually never post in any of the threads about them here, usually other gaffers cover what I want to say or ask the questions I want to ask.

With respect, do you just want lots of others to be as enthusiastic and prolific about the topic as you? Because you'd have to take into account that only a tiny minority of gaffers post on even the most popular AAA threads that sit on page one all day long.

If most people would actually consider big budget and Indie games as "equal", in giving both types of games an equal and fair chance, this topic wouldnt exist. People shouldn't really care wether or not a game is indie, but they do, and thats usually not in favor of the game.

I don't care whether a game is indie or not, I just only have time to comment in half a dozen threads a week on gaf, so the fact that I don't specifically take part in any particular one about the indie market means nothing.

I like this thread though, it's an interesting discussion.

 

[beril]

If a very thoughtful 2D game, focussing on an aspect rarely touched upon in videogames by a single person is more fun and worthwhile than a bloated, flashy, but ultimately completely irrelevant game (lets say Army of Two), then why shouldnt the enjoyment of these games be considered equal? Why does the team size and graphical prowess have anything to do with how "equal" the enjoyment of these games could be?

There are different reasons to enjoy one game over the other, but no possible reason is "superior", ideally making them equal choices.

The enjoyment of them, sure. But in pretty much any other regard it's an apples to oranges comparison. And as for the attention they're given prerelease it's pretty natural that the much much bigger project with a broader target audience will get more headlines. That's not exactly specific for indies either. You don't see Ubisoft hyping Rayman nearly as much as Assassins Creed or Nintendo promoting Pushmo as much as Mario Kart.

For the most part when there are more direct comparisons to be made I think indies in general get more favorable treatment

 

[Toma]

The enjoyment of them, sure. But in pretty much any other regard it's an apples to oranges comparison. And as for the attention they're given prerelease it's pretty natural that the much much bigger project with a broader target audience will get more headlines. That's not exactly specific for indies either. You don't see Ubisoft hyping Rayman nearly as much as Assassins Creed or Nintendo promoting Pushmo as much as Mario Kart.

For the most part when there are more direct comparisons to be made I think indies in general get more favorable treatment

Isnt the enjoyment of a game what ultimately counts? So what is wrong with trying to lift a bit of the burden that Indie games have at the moment? If a game like Starseed Pilgrim can be considered equally as enjoyable as Army of Two (or even more so, but thats subjective, so lets just keep it at the perfect "equal" level), why shouldnt it get more attention than it does right now?

The problem you stated is only the end product of the whole list of issues for this topic. Why does Army of Two have a broader target audience than a basic Jump & Run game which could basically be targeted at everyone? Because people learned to like and play a specific kind of game (That is also the "fault" of Indie Games btw, by annoying people of the thought if 2D Sidecsrolling adventures with an overabundance of low quality titles). There will always be differences in the size of audiences for different games, but the difference is way too jarring atm. And that spirals down to no one knowing the game, no one talking about it, no one playing it and back to square one where everybody only plays the games they and everyone else knows about.

 

[redcrayon]

That and it's a crowded marketplace, thousands of games are released every year, the hundred or so media channels and blogs can only cover a snapshot of what is going on, any given customer is unlikely to read more than a few of them, and the marketing budgets required to reach even modest exposure are off-limits to all but the biggest developers.

Getting coverage as a small developer revolves around good word of mouth at first, that then makes the media take notice, and then that good reputation counts for something after that. First-time developers are going to struggle for exposure unless that good word of mouth kicks in, and who's to know that people don't silently read your thread and decide to try it?

 

[kurisu_1974]

I have difficulty getting into indie games. I loved Journey and especially From Dust and more recently The Cave but I never felt the need as to label them "indie" and I'm not sure they are as they have big name developers (individuals) behind them.

Are those Sam & Max games form TellTale considered indie? I saw people mention The Walking Dead so I guess they are. I also love stuff like Flower, or Linger in Shadows which is for me a true art game that can keep interest, or Noby Noby Boy which is a nice experiment without claiming to be anything else.

Most titles mentioned here tho? They have great titles like i.e. The Sea Will Claim Everything, but when I start looking at gameplay videos they all seem platformers or puzzlers with QUIRKY GAMEPLAY!!1

From the ones I tried:

Dear Esther - actually not bad, but not a game.

Hotline Miami - was bored rather quickly by these archaic mechanics, loved the music

FTL - cannot see the appeal at all, felt badly designed but maybe it's just me

The Path - hated it, felt pointless and the little gameplay there was I didn't like

Cart Life - was very intrigued, but it crashed and I lost progress.

 

[Toma]

That and it's a crowded marketplace, thousands of games are released every year, the hundred or so media channels and blogs can only cover a snapshot of what is going on, any given customer is unlikely to read more than a few of them, and the marketing budgets required to reach even modest exposure are off-limits to all but the biggest developers.

Getting coverage as a small developer revolves around good word of mouth at first, that then makes the media take notice, and then that good reputation counts for something after that. First-time developers are going to struggle for exposure unless that good word of mouth kicks in, and who's to know that people don't silently read your thread and decide to try it?

Yeah, and that crowded marketplace is the reason why someone needs to push certain titles a bit, as a few on Gaf here are doing with Indie threads.

I know that people silently read my thread and try things, but the same is true for any big budget release thread, yet those have more views & posts. Often times those Indie threads dont even reach the second page. Not to mention that a thread containing 40+ interesting games (many of which are free) has like 1/30 of the views that the Tomb Raider thread garnered (in almost the same time period).

People do give those games more attention, and all I am trying to say is that even though those games are great, and numbers are super relative here, a certain game gets 1200x more attention (view difference 30x times the amount of games in that thread), than any of the single, interesting experiences (with the exception of rare big ones like Kentucky Route Zero for that thread) in that thread on average.

No matter how "factual" those numbers in the end are, its still completely out of proportion and to rectify that a bit, there needs to be a more vocal minority speaking out for these games.

 

[Jotamide]

RE4 is better than any indie game ever made.

Edit: RE4 is better than any indie game that I have ever played.

Then you must have played some really bland indie games.

 

[Toma]

I have difficulty getting into indie games. I loved Journey and especially From Dust and more recently The Cave but I never felt the need as to label them "indie" and I'm not sure they are as they have big name developers (individuals) behind them.

Are those Sam & Max games form TellTale considered indie? I saw people mention The Walking Dead so I guess they are. I also love stuff like Flower, or Linger in Shadows which is for me a true art game that can keep interest, or Noby Noby Boy which is a nice experiment without claiming to be anything else.

Most titles mentioned here tho? They have great titles like i.e. The Sea Will Claim Everything, but when I start looking at gameplay videos they all seem platformers or puzzlers with QUIRKY GAMEPLAY!!1

From the ones I tried:

Dear Wendy - actually not bad, but not a game.

Hotline Miami - was bored rather quickly by these archaic mechanics, loved the music

FTL - cannot see the appeal at all, felt badly designed but maybe it's just me

The Path - hated it, felt pointless and the little gameplay there was I didn't like

Cart Life - was very intrigued, but it crashed and I lost progress.

Please try Papers Please, Gorogoa and Zineth from the Indie Games march thread and let us know about your feelings in that thread. All 3 are free.

If you wouldnt mind something a bit different, I'd recommend giving Factorio a shot as well.

 

[jetjevons]

Then you must have played some really bland indie games.

To be fair that statement is not so much a criticism of indie gaming as it is a recognition of RE4s awesomeness.

 

[Toma]

To be fair that statement is not so much a criticism of indie gaming as it is a recognition of RE4s awesomeness.

Yeah, RE4 is still pretty much one of my favourite SP experience and I doubt that is ever going to change. 1 week of nonstop FFX'ing came close though.

 

[Hofmann]

You've presented some strong arguments Toma, which I mostly agree with. I think that the main difference between them is how much freedom does the director have over his creation process. During the development of a externally funded projects there's always someone standing behind the team looking over their shoulders, some producers, supervisor, etc., which isn't a case with independently developed games, where creative director is able to fully fulfill his vision without any interruptions - at least in theory. That's why it's so difficult, maybe even impossible, to create something honest, uncompromised and daring - especially, touching some uneasy subjects like political or sexual themes - in large corporate environment. Funny thing is that those people have no objections when it comes to excessive violence. For me that's the main adventage of indies over AAA.

Oh, and for people saying that indie games consist only of some low production value platformers just look at Eveybody's gone to the Rapture screens.

 

[Heart of Black]

FTL & Spelunky were 2 of my favorite OVERALL games last year. DUST AET was awesome. Dys4ia, amazingly touching. Dyad, SO GREAT. Didn't play Journey, but watching my wife beat it was satisfying enough for me. 0

But Darksiders 2 (because of the combat quality/diversity/loot whoring) won out overall for me. (which is also why I loved Bastion)

I also was in love with Fez until it ceased being about discovery and became a fetch quest.

I think there's room for both.

I'm a former AAA dev (Rockstar games), now indie dev, and so far Metal Gear Rising is my favorite game this year, though I also haven't tried many of the other released titles. I'll say Skulls of the Shogun too, but I've been friends with the devs for many years now. Ridiculous Fishing is in a similar boat.

I have more interest in Starseed Pilgrim and Kentucky Route Zero than the new Tomb Raider though, as though that is also very unlike Indie, it also looks very homogenous with other AAA games like Hitman Absolution in terms of stealth, shooting, QTE melee and climbing mechanics.

I'm done with most AAA offerings because they are so fucking tired. At least indie games take risks, even if they are in similar puzzle/platform genres. At least they take risks. The PSM Game Jam at Indiecade East yielded a ton of great concepts and themes in a fucking weekend.

It also shows when Capybara games has a TWINE game in their jam.

Hopefully the indie spark will feed into AAA games, but not as long as these fucking series like AC & COD keep pumping out Madden style updates on a yearly basis.

 

[Smelly Tramp]

Im starting to wonder if i should start getting into indie gaming. Modern gaming angers me, every game feels the same, bullshit like xp upgrades, weapon upgrades, kill enemies, cutscene, randomly generated missions, stupid collectables, "open world" CERTAINLY not linear games that actually have nothing to do in these large spaces.

I watched that trailer for Routine and wow colour me impressed. Looks fantastic.

The downside for me is that i only have a ps3 to play these things on, so will miss out on a lot of things.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

RE4 is better than any indie game ever made.

Edit: RE4 is better than any indie game that I have ever played.

You know it is kind of funny because RE4 has all the makings of being an indie game.

Awkward controls, experimental camera angle, attempts at innovation that don't always shine (QTE's / context sensitive controls), unique inventory management, not to mention that it certainly isn't the prettiest game in the PS2 / gamecube library. It is like a big budget indie game if you sorta think about it haha.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

All I know is that if it weren't for the presence and influence of smaller, independent games, I would have been bored right out of computer/video games some time back. Maybe it'll never go back to the purer days of mostly publishers who simply published like book publishers, like it was in the 80s, but things are certainly looking up for a return to more sustainable practices with better, more interesting games as a result.

 

[Toma]

Im starting to wonder if i should start getting into indie gaming. Modern gaming angers me, every game feels the same, bullshit like xp upgrades, weapon upgrades, kill enemies, cutscene, randomly generated missions, stupid collectables, "open world" CERTAINLY not linear games that actually have nothing to do in these large spaces.

I watched that trailer for Routine and wow colour me impressed. Looks fantastic.

The downside for me is that i only have a ps3 to play these things on, so will miss out on a lot of things.

Yeah.. most of these worthwhile Indie Games are PC only, Mac if someone is feeling generous. Although to play most of these, it doesnt take a big PC either. You could pretty much play Starseed Pilgrim or SpaceChem on a 6-7 old notebook.

But I definitely agree with the notion of "modern" gaming jading me. I havent played as much games right now, as I have been at any point in the last 3 years or so (with the exception of some occasional Fifa and the occasional 'AAA' game). I just found out that the pure "fun" I had when playing videogames as a kid hasnt disappeared, I simply needed to look somewhere else. I am very glad I made that discovery.

 

[cm osi]

I suppose it's my problem, but there's not a single indie game that interests me. I own hundreds of "AAA" games.

that's not a problem.

 

[Toma]

that's not a problem.

Of course it is, did you read the OP? People shouldnt need to feel the need to say "indie games are shit". He might not be wrong for thinking that on a personal level, but its an issue and a problem that the gaming community needs to grow out of. It might not be a problem for HIM, but it is still a problem, due to the things I mentioned in the OP. All games can be worthwhile and enjoyable and some Indie Games are by far more important than most AAA games to push the medium forward.

People should be interested in ANY kind of good game, and the question here is to examine why they arent.

 

[Mileena]

that's not a problem.

More like a blessing.

 

[A Sentient Keyboard]

I don't really want to chug through a -judging from the first posts- thoroughly depressing 300 posts, so I'll just come in here and say that, while I enjoy both immensely, I would sacrifice the AAA industry games to save indie games industry any day of the week.

Indie games, because of their smaller production costs, can go so much deeper and further than AAA games. AAA games are chained by having to reach an audience of millions, so innovation is at a standstill, and almost every new game is the essentially the same as the previous one but with higher production values. Indie games are a godsend.

You're fighting the good fight, Toma.

 

[cm osi]

Of course it is, did you read the OP? People shouldnt need to feel the need to say "indie games are shit". He might not be wrong for thinking that on a personal level, but its an issue and a problem that the gaming community needs to grow out of. It might not be a problem for HIM, but it is still a problem, due to the things I mentioned in the OP. All games can be worthwhile and enjoyable and some Indie Games are by far more important than most AAA games to push the medium forward.

People should be interested in ANY kind of good game, and the question here is to examine why they arent.

neither I or Ryce said that they're shit. he just said "not a single indie game interests me" which it's perfectly fine.
i suppose he toke some time to look for some indie games and didn't found them interesting.
obviously we can't spend days looking for every game on the earth.
personal tastes are NEVER wrong.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

You know it is kind of funny because RE4 has all the makings of being an indie game.

Awkward controls, experimental camera angle, attempts at innovation that don't always shine (QTE's / context sensitive controls), unique inventory management, not to mention that it certainly isn't the prettiest game in the PS2 / gamecube library.

I don't know which RE4 you played because the one I played was easily one of the best looking games on that generation of consoles.

 

[Toma]

neither I or Ryce said that they're shit. he just said "not a single indie game interests me" which it's perfectly fine.
i suppose he toke some time to look for some indie games and didn't found them interesting.
obviously we can't spend days looking for every game on the earth.
personal tastes are NEVER wrong.

You dont get what I am saying. Personal taste may not be "wrong", because taste is highly subjective, but it still can be problematic, especially when that taste has been trained and dictated by certain interest groups.

Its fine that so many people enjoy COD, really. But at the same time, these games follow a model where they actively train people to like a very specific standard. That in turn prohibits them from straying from the path to try different games.

Its perfectly fine if someone doesnt like a certain game/genre or whatever, but there may be an underlying and probably subconscious problem at work here that leads to most gamers being less open for different experiences than they were 10 years ago. And THAT is what I mean by saying that this is still problematic.

 

[alphaNoid]

I much prefer AAA > Indie

 

[Of All Trades]

Yeah, and that crowded marketplace is the reason why someone needs to push certain titles a bit, as a few on Gaf here are doing with Indie threads.

To be blunt, I generally find the PC indie threads to be too overenthusiastic with titles, and that likely winds up being offputting to the casual passer-by. Miasmata is a good example: it does a few really interesting things, but it also has some really critically poor design decisions that actually should have been focus-grouped out, and if you can't get past those issues (or the slew of performance issues) it's going to be a sour experience. And I'd consider Miasmata to be an example of a polished indie game.

The Real Texas is another shining example of that, and I played it after the game breaking bugs were patched out and the truly bizarre combat problems were toned down.

 

[Heart of Black]

One thing I will say is there really is sometimes way too much praise for objectively pretty shitty indie games.

But again, games like Spelunky & FTL... man. So good, and VERY polished and mass market friendly.

Both games are all about player choice and certain randomness while also having hard coded choices that make for real important results.

I answered a string of questions in FTL & was rewarded in a way that none of the Mass Effect games ever came close to achieving.

 

[Toma]

One thing I will say is there really is sometimes way too much praise for objectively pretty shitty indie games.

But again, games like Spelunky & FTL... man. So good, and VERY polished and mass market friendly.

Both games are all about player choice and certain randomness while also having hard coded choices that make for real important results.

I answered a string of questions in FTL & was rewarded in a way that none of the Mass Effect games ever came close to achieving.

Sure but thats not different for 'AAA' games either. I remember the launch hype on GTAIV or Diablo 3 which lasted weeks, while I was flailing my arms at people asking why no one sees how shit the game was.

Besides, obviously not every game that others like, will be to your liking as well. I am still a but muffled that I dont like Proteus as much as I hoped I would.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Someone not trained in the genre? That would be tough. And even then, I dont know anyone who played through the game and considered it "pisseasy". So even if he managed to do it, he'd still probably admit that "pisseasy" wasnt the right word to describe SMB.

I beat Super Meat Boy and have the "Golden God" achievement. I would classify Super Meat Boy as "piss easy". 30 second levels a hard game does not make, it is a casual game. I think it is a great casual game, but it is still a casual game. Anyone can 100% Super Meat Boy (much the same way one could probably 100% Peggle).

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Sure but thats not different for 'AAA' games either. I remember the launch hype on GTAIV or Diablo 3 which lasted weeks, while I was flailing my arms at people asking why no one sees how shit the game was.

I love plenty of AAA games, but I'm going to say that there's always more positive talk and unending praise for what are objectively shitty and heartless big budget games than all indie titles put together. But that's what millions to billions of dollars in marketing a year does with a userbase conditioned to accept them as the baseline and anything else as stepping down.

 

[Allforce]

I'm not opposed to something niche and interesting, but my gaming time is limited. I want to be blown away with what I'm spending time playing. I'm not sure what the definition of "indie" really entals anymore, Trials HD was my favorite game this generation, is that indie? What about shit like Vanquish, or Spec Ops? Both of those are from self-described "independant" developers.

Basically does it have to be done by 2 guys in an apartment to be indie? Or is a team of 12 in an office in California ok too? Is AAA only things made by a corporately owned entity? It's such a tough distinction to just say "oh well the games *I* play are better than THOSE games because they're made with less funding".

It should be "Indie > Mainstream" if you ask me.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I'm not opposed to something niche and interesting, but my gaming time is limited. I want to be blown away with what I'm spending time playing. I'm not sure what the definition of "indie" really entals anymore, Trials HD was my favorite game this generation, is that indie? What about shit like Vanquish, or Spec Ops? Both of those are from self-described "independant" developers.

Basically does it have to be done by 2 guys in an apartment to be indie? Or is a team of 12 in an office in California ok too? Is AAA only things made by a corporately owned entity? It's such a tough distinction to just say "oh well the games *I* play are better than THOSE games because they're made with less funding".

It should be "Indie > Mainstream" if you ask me.

Metal Gear Rising is the best indie game I have played this year so far.

 

[Newblade]

I beat Super Meat Boy and have the "Golden God" achievement. I would classify Super Meat Boy as "piss easy". 30 second levels a hard game does not make, it is a casual game. I think it is a great casual game, but it is still a casual game. Anyone can 100% Super Meat Boy (much the same way one could probably 100% Peggle).

I too have achived "Golden God" and I would classify it as moderately to very difficult. There are even warp zones with limited amount of lives. Trying to beat the hardest of those while also getting the bandages is not "piss easy".

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I too have achived "Golden God" and I would classify it as moderately to very difficult. There are even warp zones with limited amount of lives. Trying to beat the hardest of those while also getting the bandages is not "piss easy".

The only somewhat difficult part of Super Meat Boy is probably like one or two tough warp zones (if you go for bandages) - because it actually has a proper structure (limited lives, 3 levels in a row). I guess that maybe elevates it from "piss easy" to "easycore" (as pizzaroll would call it).

 

[redcrayon]

Yeah, and that crowded marketplace is the reason why someone needs to push certain titles a bit, as a few on Gaf here are doing with Indie threads.

I know that people silently read my thread and try things, but the same is true for any big budget release thread, yet those have more views & posts. Often times those Indie threads dont even reach the second page. Not to mention that a thread containing 40+ interesting games (many of which are free) has like 1/30 of the views that the Tomb Raider thread garnered (in almost the same time period).

People do give those games more attention, and all I am trying to say is that even though those games are great, and numbers are super relative here, a certain game gets 1200x more attention (view difference 30x times the amount of games in that thread), than any of the single, interesting experiences (with the exception of rare big ones like Kentucky Route Zero for that thread) in that thread on average.

No matter how "factual" those numbers in the end are, its still completely out of proportion and to rectify that a bit, there needs to be a more vocal minority speaking out for these games.

But the 'indie games thread' contains almost too much information for that- no game title in the headline for a start makes it a bit less obvious, it just isn't as enticing as a short thread title about a single game series some of us have been playing since we were kids. That's not a bad thing- I find the level of information to be great, but a lot of people only casually browse the forum and only want to chip in the odd pithy comment here and there on the most popular threads, not to mention lurkers. There just isn't an obligation to pay attention to and comment on even well-maintained info threads like yours, which takes a bit more investigation than the average hit-and-run poster is likely to invest.

Not too mention that, with Tomb Raider, it has fifteen years worth of audience over a dozen games- blaming the interest on it as people discounting indie or just heavy marketing isn't fair- a lot of interest there is based on practical experience of the previous games being good, or at least some of them were. Id expect the 12th sequel of an acclaimed indie game that has been running for fifteen years to have a mega thread in proportion to its sales too.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I dont' really care if a game is indie or not. If it is a game that looks like it will interest me, I will pick it up if the price is right. Unfortunately, 2d platformers and adventure games do not interest me. Indie's need to develop some space sims or strategy games for me to get interested.

 

[Sothpaw]

I would take Wasteland 2 and Shadowrun Returns over any two revealed AAA games.

 

[truly101]

You know it is kind of funny because RE4 has all the makings of being an indie game.

Awkward controls, experimental camera angle, attempts at innovation that don't always shine (QTE's / context sensitive controls), unique inventory management, not to mention that it certainly isn't the prettiest game in the PS2 / gamecube library. It is like a big budget indie game if you sorta think about it haha.

This is amazing revisionism. RE4 was one of the best looking games of the time, especially on the GC. There is nothing indie to me about RE4, its still very Japanese at its heart.

 

[Toma]

I dont' really care if a game is indie or not. If it is a game that looks like it will interest me, I will pick it up if the price is right. Unfortunately, 2d platformers and adventure games do not interest me. Indie's need to develop some space sims or strategy games for me to get interested.

Because that is all there is in the Indie Games spectrum, right? And because every adventure and 2D Platformer is literally the same and is not able to offer something that others havent yet.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Because that is all there is in the Indie Games spectrum, right? And because every adventure and 2D Platformer is literally the same and is not able to offer something that others havent yet.

That is all I ever see get greenlit on Steam. And for your second point, I'm fine with Indie devs making this stuff, it is just not what I want to play so I don't purchase them. I like the indie movement, I just wish they made stuff more in line with my gaming preferences.

 

[jetjevons]

I beat Super Meat Boy and have the "Golden God" achievement. I would classify Super Meat Boy as "piss easy". 30 second levels a hard game does not make, it is a casual game. I think it is a great casual game, but it is still a casual game. Anyone can 100% Super Meat Boy (much the same way one could probably 100% Peggle).

Super Meat Boy is not 'piss easy'. If you need a pat on the back for your 1337 gaming skillz I'm happy to give you one. Congrats.

 

[Cramoss]

I hate the overuse of the word Indie for some reason.

 

[Toma]

That is all I ever see get greenlit on Steam. And for your second point, I'm fine with Indie devs making this stuff, it is just not what I want to play so I don't purchase them. I like the indie movement, I just wish they made stuff more in line with my gaming preferences.

Please check out this Fallout style game called Underrail:

Jet Set Radio style game called Zineth:

This RTS/Sim hybrid called Factorio:

And keep an eye out for Deep Space Settlement and Train Fever.

 

[GravityMan]

I like "indie" games because they are more likely to try new things and take risks. (This also applies to many Kickstarter games so far.) The problems with them are that (a) they are "rough"...i.e. most of them are janky and buggy at release (Chivalry, Miasmata and Hotline Miami come to mind) and (b) most of them look 1 to 3 generations behind current gen graphically. B and to a lesser extent A are both culprits of limited budget and resources.

The problem with most "AAA" games is that they play it too safe and feel way too focus-tested. They feel more like checklists and the result of heavy influence from the publisher's marketing department, instead of the developer's creative vision. Multiplayer? Check. Epic setpieces? Check. Shoehorned-in RPG elements? Check. Guns? Check. Dudebro elements? Check. They have to sell 500K - 1M copies just to break even so devs/pubs are hesitant to take risks. OTOH, with some notable exceptions (SimCity), AAA games tend to be more polished than indies.

What's really missing lately is high-quality games from middle-tier studios. These games are more likely to feel at least somewhat new and fresh, and at the same time be reasonably polished. There are many exceptions of course (Alpha Protocol's lack of polish). One reason why the PS2/GC/Xbox gen was so good was because many of the great games than came from this group of devs. Sadly many of them have taken a beating this gen financially.

In the end...for me if a game is good, it's good...doesn't matter if it's indie or AAA or whatever.

 

[Boerseun]

I'd imagine if this thread was the first stop for someone new to GAF they'd think we only recognise the existence of three types of games.

• AAA meaning blood, tits and explosions.
• Indie meaning pseudo 8 bit graphics and ropey control schemes.
• And Nintendo games, which is anything with more colour than sense and a barely extant narrative to drive the gameplay.

...

Oddly enough, I just realised I'm okay with this.

Although I'm not sure how that's supposed to make me feel. :-/

 

[Weltall Zero]

This thread is depressing. For some reason my impression was that GAF at large was the one place that celebrated indie games. Perhaps this comes from the fact that I started posting in GAF around the time I became more acquainted with a wide variety of indie games, and there is truly no causal relation, just temporal overlap.

In any case, nowadays I split my gaming time pretty much 50/50 between the indie and non-indie scene, and even in the latter's case, with games that have many indie traits (Mark of the Ninja, Dark Souls). In any case, at 100 hours, FTL is my most played game this year, and my most played game on Steam (on an account 4-5 years old with 300+ games including plenty of 'AAA' titles); this is just one among many.

It is true that separating the wheat from the chaff is harder in the case of indie games because the entry barrier is lower (meaning an intimidatingly enormous of games with no reference as to their quality), and also because the very proliferation of innumerable titles makes it hard to know if a game recommended to you is truly great or if it just happens to scratch a very particular niche of the recommender that you won't share. Perhaps we should make a "essential indie games" thread with votes and such much like the awesome "essential RPGs" one. I would so very much look forward to that, frankly, but I don't nearly have enough time to follow up on that, tally the votes, etc.

Edit: And I've just done exactly that:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=524550